Fallout Boy
Saturday versus Marlins’ starter Josh Johnson, Met manager Jerry Manuel rolled out this lineup:
- LF Angel Pagan
- RF Fernando Martinez
- CF Carlos Beltran
- 3B Fernando Tatis
- 1B Daniel Murphy
- 2B Ramon Martinez
- CÂ Â Brian Schneider
- SS Wilson Valdez
The Mets wound up losing the game 7-3, and since then a prime topic among sports talk show callers has been their angst with this lineup.
The question “how could Manuel bench all his stars?” has been asked repeatedly. Apparently no one noticed that Carlos Beltran started this game. He had 3 hitless at bats before leaving with a stomach virus after the 5th inning. At least one “star” started the game.
“Where was David Wright? The Mets just had an off day Thursday.” Wright had started every game of the season to that point. Wright is 3 for 18 with 1 RBI and no extra-base hits in his career versus Johnson. Further, in the 3 games prior to Saturday, Wright was 3 for 15 with 8 strikeouts. It could at least be argued that he needed a rest. Few players play all 162 games. His replacement, Fernando Tatis, was placed in the clean up spot in the line up, perhaps because in his career prior to this game he was 4 for 6 with a home run and 2 RBI versus Johnson.
“Why did Manuel play Schneider? I wanted to see Santos.” Seriously? I know Santos is Met fans’ latest cult hero, but they’re called cult heroes for a reason: they have a cult following. Santos has been a revelation for the Mets thus far, but he is 28 years old and has less than 100 career Major League at bats. He was stuck in the minor leagues for 7 years for a reason: his career Minor League numbers of .258 BA/ .303 OBP/ .348 SLG. Not to mention Schneider had just been activated from the disabled list prior to the game, and that it was the proverbial day game after a night game.
“Where was Luis Castillo?” Really? Most of you have wanted him fitted for cement shoes and dumped in the nearest river for months. Now you’re going to complain that he’s not in the line up? Castillo has balky knees and is rested occasionally. Ramon Martinez moved over from short to give Castillo a day off, and was replaced by Wilson Valdez. To the best of my knowledge, nobody wondered why Wilson Valdez was playing. Kudos for that.
“I paid good money for my tickets and I want to see the best players.” Perhaps the most reasonable argument. But if you call yourself a baseball fan, you probably have noticed the trend that ball players are more likely to be rested in a day game after a night game. If you ever went to Shea Stadium on a Sunday during the Mike Piazza era, you likely saw Todd Pratt, Vance Wilson, Jason Phillips, or Ramon Castro. This was due in large part to two things: it was almost always a day game after a night game, and most players need a rest now and then. Those rests cannot be scheduled to meet your entertainment needs. If you want better odds on seeing the regulars play, don’t go to a day game after a night game.
Ultimately, it’s a long season, and almost every player, star or not, is going to get an occasional day off. As much as you might like him to do so, Manuel can’t survey the entire fan base to determine when to give his players a day off. Teams have 25 (and 40) man rosters for a reason. Sometimes they even use them.
72 comments
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
I think Sheff and Castillo both sat the day game following a night game.
I think the argument that Jerry could have played David and given him the following day off (with Sheff returning) is a valid one. Jerry shouldn’t be afraid to play his best hitters against another team’s best pitcher.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
I didn’t bother with a paragraph about Sheffield because few of the complaints I’ve been hearing have been mentioning him. I suppose I should give people credit for realizing that he’s 40 years old and will be getting weekly days off. Kudos!
I agree that the argument could be made about playing David. But I also see the argument against it, and given the small but ugly career numbers combined with the recent funk leading up to the game I find it ultimately justifiable.
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
I suppose it’s justifiable but that doesn’t make it [W}right. He could have gone one step further toward making it a formidable lineup by playing Wright at 3B and Tatis at 2B. He played Tatis at 2B earlier this year while Castillo was hitting and Cora was healthy.
David definitely needs a day or two off. But that day could have waited another 24 hours rather than waving the white flag against a great pitcher. I’d have preferred to see our best feasible lineup against Johnson — and I don’t see how playing Wright was not feasible.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
That’s fair. I can hope that David has a good last month with RISP and then I’ll be able to point to the rest he got 5/30 and say “see!”
udontmesswthejohan
6/1/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
You make a rational argument there Grave, but let’s be honest, that game blew something awful on Saturday. It is what it is, but you would have to be wearing the rosiest of rose colored glasses to have felt godd about that game at the start.
I tried to talk myself into it, but realized I was kidding myself.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
Your take on it is quite reasonable. I too did not “feel good” about it, but what I did NOT do and it sounds like you didn’t either, is take it personally that Jerry was out to get me by starting the line up that he did.
udontmesswthejohan
6/1/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
Haha – while I’d be lying if I said I weren’t prone to fits of narcissims now and again, I agree with you, Jerry wasn’t out to ruin my Saturday. Or was he???
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
The way I see it, we’re a World Series contending team, not Pirates. We have aspirations of finally winning an NL East title after getting EMBARRASSED the last couple seasons. Why on Earth would you put NON Competitive team out there when youre on already on a roll!? The Mets stood no chance at all. I am so glad I didnt go ahead and get tkts for that game.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
Damn, I mustve sounded like a moron. Excuse all the mistakes.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
the way I see it Manuel knew the Mets were going to lose anyway so he rested his guys. btw Valdez, Pagan, Schnieder, Tatis and F-Mart had hits in that game.
Beltran, Murphy, Martinez (current starters) were all hitless…
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
Beltran wouldn’t have gotten a hit off of me that day either — I wouldn’t have thrown anything near the plate.
Anyway, Beltran was also sick that day… all the more reason to have played Wright.
And you bringing up Murphy reminds me that Murphy sat against Sean West the day before, a day after driving in 5(?) runs on three hits because Jerry doesn’t want him to play against lefties even though he said earlier that Murphy can hit lefties (and in fact, he has). Hopefully, Murphy doesn;t go into a funk because he’s being jerked around like he did the last time Manuel started jerking him around (he was hitting .300 when Manuel decided he was no longer going to play everyday).
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:10pm at 4:10 pm (UTC -4)
should Murphy have played the next day yes but to use that as an excuse for him going hitless since is comical.
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not suggesting that is the reason he did not hit. I’m suggesting that Jerry’s mismanagement of the lineup does not help players who need to get into a groove. Sitting the day before may not have been the direct cause of his not hitting but I bet it was a contributing factor. Of course, the pitcher deserves credit too.
Look what happened when he started jerking Ryan Church out of the lineup amidst his hot start.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
the question is if Manuel puts his best lineup out there do the Mets still win that game. A reasonable fan says probably not…
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
Why? Because Johnson was going up against Redding?
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
yes Johnson is a borderline ace and Redding is a borderline MLB starter.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
With all due respect but that’s silly. Not everything goes as planned in baseball.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets at that time were a 1st place team, not a bunch of celler dwellers. Youre giving JJ too much credit. The guy came off surgery in the middle of last season. Who know’s what would have happened? Maybe he’s aggrevates something? Or maybe he had a fight with his wife earlier in the day.
The point is, you dont call a game before a game is played, especially for a 1st place club on a winning streak.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
im just saying their ace vs. our 5th starter is a tough matchup for us. Not saying we cant win but odds are against us.
id rather have Sheff and Wright play the other 2 games where the matchup is on our favor…
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
championship teams need to beat the good pitchers too.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
True, and baseball history is littered with .250 punch and judy hitters who had one moment in the spotlight when they shined brightly and helped their team win a game.
When you say “And it only takes one play, one at bat or one pitch to change the way a game flows. Suppose Wright connects with a first inning HR. Who knows how Johnson responds?” I wonder why is it impossible that for one day Wilson Valdez, Fernando Tatis, Ramon Martinez or Angel Pagan could be the one to do that?
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
Who is more likely to have the big hit? Wright or Wilson Valdez?
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
Baseball is all about playing the odds. Hey, a kid with down syndrome will hit a free throw shot every now and then.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Wilson Valdez will certainly appreciate being compared to a kid with Down Syndrome.
All of us have watched baseball for long enough to know damn well that the best lineup isn’t posted every day, and the best lineup “on paper” doesn’t win every day. This is why I don’t ultimately understand the outrage about this one particular lineup, and why I bothered to write about it.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
Grave, us being Mets fans are use to seeing horrible line ups throughout the years. That was beyond a horrible line up. With a team already without 2 All stars in the lineup, you dont rest another 2 plus a HOF caliber player like Shef and expect to manage a competitive game.
billydeewilliams
6/1/2009-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
queens. if redding doesn’t give up a 3-run bomb though, that game is very competitive…with the terrible lineup. in fact, if anyone else was pitching that game for the mets, it’s a competitive game.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
Didnt we have Livan going up against Lincecum? Howd that one turn out?
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent memory. It’s a good thing we didn’t quit on that one.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets started Cora, Santos and Reed vs. Lincecum, and ultimately beat Brian Wilson.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:43pm at 4:43 pm (UTC -4)
You cant compare Cora and Reed to Ramon Martinez and Wilson Valdez. Cora and Reed are legit ball players on a 25 man roster. Valdez and Martinez are legit Minor League players. And we werent man handled by Lincecum either. The game was competitive throughout leading to Wilson’s meltdown.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
Qns you’re right, our starter stunk that day too. Both Livan and Lincecum gave up 5 runs that day.
And Ramon Martinez has 12 years service in the major leagues. So ultimately then the problem would seem to be with starting Wilson Valdez, and I’ll say what I said in the post again: He only started because Jerry was giving a rest to Luis Castillo in a day game after a night game. Are we really all going to get worked about about giving Luis Castillo a day off?
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
But you seem to think that Jerry planned to lose this game with the line up he posted. What if his “plan” hadn’t worked out and they’d won?
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
It is not that he planned to lose. It’s that he didn’t necessarily try his best to win (within reason as obviously Sheff and Luis were not going to play.
Then again, I don’t understand most of Jerry does.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-8:41pm at 8:41 pm (UTC -4)
well according to that logic he should never rest any of the starters…
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
You never know what is going to happen. Johnson is not Superman. And it is cowardly not to try. Not to mention it sends a bad message to the players and the fans that he has no confidence in his team to beat this guy.
And it only takes one play, one at bat or one pitch to change the way a game flows. Suppose Wright connects with a first inning HR. Who knows how Johnson responds?
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
You never know what’s going to happen.
As Oleo pointed out above, Valdez, Pagan, Schnieder, Tatis and F-Mart had hits in that game.
Beltran, Murphy, Martinez (current starters) were all hitless…
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
if Redding doesn’t give up 7 runs in 4 IP maybe the Mets win that game…
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
1. that’s hindsight.
2. who knows what would have happened with wright hitting behind beltran and tatis behind murphy? if i were johnson, I would have rolled the ball to beltran at the plate.
3. the fact is that before the game started, Jerry decided his team was not going to win.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
Well jerry said he was going to rest Wright before the series started. What if Wright plays in game 2 and not in game 3? Maybe we lose both games instead of only 1
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
First of all, Jerry had said previously that he was going to rest David a game in Pittsburgh.
Second of all, why do you assume in cowardly fashion that the Mets would lose either game, let alone both? There’s nothing that ou can possibly present that would indicate that doing the reverse would result in the Mets losing both games.
You can’t manage scared. That kind of feeling trickles down from the manager to the players.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
Winning teams and confidence go together like Bert & Ernie.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
Imagine how much the confidence of one of the “subs” would have been built if they’d gotten a key hit off of Johnson.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
Ahhhhh that’s stretching it a bit, Grave.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
well when Redding (who is awful) goes up against Josh Johnson and Reyes and Delgado are on the DL and Beltran is not at 100%, i do not expect to win the game.
Sure they could have won but I would say the chances of them doing so are pretty low
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
Youre not saying anything new with that, oleo?
jaded1983
6/1/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
Someone made a good point the other day regarding resting all the starters. Everyone gets a rest against a pitcher that has dominated them in the past, yes it doesnt help the current game, but it does help in the long haul.
instead of staggering the rest and playing even shorter-handed a bunch of days in a row, jerry did it all in one shot giving his regulars two days off. they should now be well rested and good to.
i think its a f-ed if you do, f-ed if you dont for jerry on saturday and if he used the logic above to make his decision, i agree FWIW.
wannybackstra
6/1/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Judging by Jerry’s managerial decisions this season, I can promise you he didn’t use any logic.
And I bet he had no idea what David Wright’s numbers were against Johnson. Afterall, he said he relies less on stats and more on his gut, instinct and feel for the players.
There's Always '10
6/1/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
Do you think he knows D-Wright is #5?
dirtysanchez
6/1/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
wow…different tone from grave here lol. What i had an issue with was why did he have to rest everyone the same day? I mean most managers spread the days off so that at least there is a competative lineup. He gave them no shot in hell of wining that game… I know as recently as wille, he used to give days off on the third game of the series but not like what manuel did. What makes it worse is what he said about the issue. He said basically that since our lack of success against jj, it would be the perfect day to rest everyone. I dont argue giving guys rest, what i do argue is manuels way in which he did it. He could have handled the roster better is what im saying. Sorry for and typos or n e thing…im writing on my phone
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely agree. Jerry basically waived the white flag before the game was even played.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
Different tone, yes. All my light and fluffy posts get “nice job, that’s funny” and 12 comments. I thought I’d go for a more in your face post. It’s not contrived, I really feel what I wrote. It’s just the first topic I’ve been upset enough about.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
i don’t see the big deal though. With the pitching performance Redding gave, i don’t see how our regular lineup makes us win that game…
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
the funny thing is the “backups” actually played well that game while the starters did bad…
jaded1983
6/1/2009-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
which *might* lend credibility to jerry’s “reasoning,” to give his starters two days rest?
the starters didnt get a hit, but the more rested backups did.
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe because the starters werent getting decent stuff to swing at because Wilson Valdez and Ramon Martinez were protecting them?
jaded1983
6/1/2009-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
lol
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
or maybe they couldnt get anything decent to hit b/c Josh Johnson is a nasty pitcher?
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
A good hitter stands a better chance of success with a competent hitter behind him. Thats a fact.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:54pm at 4:54 pm (UTC -4)
yes but would you rather of had a very weak lineup on Saturday and your strongest lineup on Sunday or a better but still weak lineup on Saturday and a not as good lineup on Sunday?
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
Heading out of the office, Grave. I’ll get back to you on this later.
There's Always '10
6/1/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
I was happy with the lineup. Josh Johnson is on my fantasy team
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
Mine too! lol
QnsNative718
6/1/2009-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
Im a commish of a money league, but when it comes to the Mets, I’ll happily be in last place for a win.
There's Always '10
6/1/2009-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
I know. I’m just playing. I do stupid things like sit Josh Johnson the day he throws a complete game against the Mets. Then I sit him every time against the Mets so I can cheer for them. Of course, he only wins against the Mets and loses badly to everyone else.
I also bet the Mets every night, but that’s a different story.
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
look Castillo, Santos and Sheff cant play everyday. So instead of making our lineup a tiny bit worse for 4 games in a row, Manuel did it all in one day and he picked the day the Mets had the lowest chance of winning.
Suppose Manuel kept Wright in the lineup on Saturday and rested him Sunday. not only do you more than likely lose anyway on Saturday but you hurt the team’s chances of winning on Sunday as well.
johan4cy
6/1/2009-5:05pm at 5:05 pm (UTC -4)
i somewhat agree, but you cant just give up considering that livan beat lincecum not too long ago…
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-5:38pm at 5:38 pm (UTC -4)
its not giving up but then again Livan is capable of pitching a gem on any day. Redding might pitch a gem once a year…
johan4cy
6/1/2009-5:42pm at 5:42 pm (UTC -4)
but in that game livan pitched nowhere close to a gem
oleosmirf
6/1/2009-5:44pm at 5:44 pm (UTC -4)
I understand people are upset that Manuel put out a very weak lineup but they have to rest them sometime. With Reyes and Delgado on the DL and Beltran being day-to-day, you cant sit Sheff one day, Wright the next,. The Mets need Sheff AND Wright in the lineup in order to win these series and the best way to keep them on the field was to rest them all at once during a game they would probably lose if they started anyway…
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-5:53pm at 5:53 pm (UTC -4)
That aspect does seem to get lost. No team ever has gone 162-0, but a few teams have gone 108-54. You do that by winning 2 of every 3 games, in other words, by winning series. The Mets won the series versus the Marlins, despite this “outrageous” and “unacceptable” lineup.
GravediggerHebner
6/1/2009-6:29pm at 6:29 pm (UTC -4)
On the topic of lineups:
Beltran scratched from tonight’s lineup vs. Pittsburgh.