"Oh lawdy lawd he's despit, do what he say, do what he say!"
He baffles the townspeople with his words, like Sheriff Bart from Blazing Saddles. This is what many have said about Jerry Manuel. That he’s not a good manager, he’s simply a good interview. The disastrous weekend in the Bronx has led to renewed talk that the New York Mets are not fundamentally sound, and that the best way to improve their play would be to replace Manuel with a manager who places a greater emphasis on fundamental play. I disagree with this assertion, I feel that a third different manager within one calendar year would contribute further to the sinking of the ship, not help bail out the water. But in the interest of discussion, the following is a list of some living former major league managers. Which of these men, if any, do you think will make the Mets run the bases, field their positions, and work the count better?
- Felipe Alou, age 74. 1033-1021 (.503). Named 1994 NL Manager of the Year after leading the Montreal Expos to a 74-40 (.649) record in the strike-shortened season. NY Times writer Jack Curry describes Alou as having a ‘calm style and tactful strategies.’ Perhaps a bit old for the job.
- Don Baylor, age 59. 627-689 (.476). Named 1995 NL Manager of the Year after leading the Colorado Rockies to a 77-67 (.535) record in the strike-shortened season and the Division Series Playoff which they lost 3 games to 1 to the Atlanta Braves. NY Times writer Lee Jenkins notes that the Mets started scoring a lot more runs after he was named batting coach in 2004, and Murray Chass notes that Baylor would like to manage again.
- Larry Bowa, age 63. 418-435 (.490). Named 2001 NL Manager of the Year after leading the Philadelphia Phillies to a 86-76 (.531) record and a 2nd place finish one year after the team lost 97 games under Terry Francona. He’s clearly a fiery take charge guy, and those in favor of the Mets acquiring Nick Johnson will be pleased to note that Bowa is Johnson’s uncle.
- Phil Garner, age 60. 985-1054 (.483). Garner led the 2005 Houston Astros to the World Series via the wild card, but they lost 4 games to none to the Chicago White Sox. His nickname is ‘Scrap Iron’ due to his gritty style, and he won 92 games with the 1992 Milwaukee Brewers with a strong emphasis on baserunning.
- John Gibbons, age 47. 305-305 (.500). Gibbons’ best season was 2006 when he lead the Toronto Blue Jays to an 87-75 (.537) record and a 2nd place finish in the AL East. He is a former Met and is known for his in-your-face style.
- Mike Hargrove, age 59. 1188-1173 (.503). Hargrove took the 1995 and the 1997 Cleveland Indians to the World Series, losing 4 games to 2 to the Atlanta Braves in ’95 and 4 games to 3 to the Florida Marlins in ’97. Two strikes against him: upon seeing Ichiro Suzuki play in Japan Hargrove stated he would be “no better than a fourth outfielder in MLB;” and he resigned as manager of the Seattle Mariners in 2007 saying his “passion has begun to fade.” He is however currently managing at the semi-pro level with the Liberal BeeJays in Kansas.
Yes, a team with this name really exists!
- Clint Hurdle, age 51. 534-625 (.461). Hurdle led the 2007 Colorado Rockies to the World Series which they lost 4 games to none to the Boston Red Sox. After an 18-28 (.391) start Hurdle was fired by the Rockies on May 29th. He is under contract with the Rockies through the end of this season.
- Davey Johnson, age 66. 1148-888 (.564). Certainly a favorite among Met fans old enough to recall 1986 firsthand, having led the team through it’s mid-’80s run of winning 90 games or more in 5 consecutive seasons. Has by far the best winning percentage of anyone on this list. My own editorial note: I was not at all impressed with his ‘handling’ of Team USA in the 2009 World Baseball Classic, and I would prefer not to sully my memories of 1986 by bringing him back.
- Ray Knight, age 56. 125-137 (.477). 1986 World Series MVP as a player with the Mets, but perhaps best known as a manager for fining himself $250 for calling for a sacrifice bunt at an inopportune time.
- Lee Mazzilli, age 54. 129-140 (.480). The ‘Italian Stallion’ gave me one of my favorite memories growing up a Met fan when he singlehandedly (in my opinion) won the 1979 All-Star Game by hitting the game tying home run in 8th inning, then drawing a bases loaded walk in the 9th to give the NL the lead. Dave Parker won the MVP however for defense by throwing out two AL baserunners from right field. His managerial tenure with the Orioles was marred by a lack of quality depth of pitchers.
- Hal McRae, age 63. 399-473 (.458). His best season as a manager, 1993 84-78 (.519), is most noteworthy because of an early season tirade during which he yelled profanities and tossed objects, so he’s fiery.
- Bob Melvin, age 47. 493-508 (.493). Melvin won the 2007 NL Manager of the Year award for leading the Arizona Diamondbacks to the NL Championship Series which they lost 4 games to none to the Colorado Rockies. He was fired by the Diamondbacks May 8th. Orlando Hudson likes him.
- Tony Pena, age 52. 198-285 (.410). There’s nothing sexy about a .410 winning percentage, but the Kansas City Royals teams that Pena managed were hardly overburdened with talent. He won AL Manager of the Year in 2003 when the team won 83 games and finished in 3rd place with Carlos Beltran leading the offense and Darrell May leading the pitching. Yup, Darrell May.
- Frank Robinson, age 73. 1065-1176 (.475). Won the 1989 AL Manager of the Year leading the Baltimore Orioles to 83 wins and a 2nd place finish. Is in the Hall of Fame as a player. Like Alou, perhaps a bit old for the job.
- Buck Showalter, age 53. 882-833 (.514). Twice named AL Manager of the Year, first in 1994 when he led the New York Yankees to a 70-43 (.619) record in the strike-shortened season, then in 2004 when he led the Texas Rangers to an 89-73 (.549) record and 3rd place in the AL West. The Yankees and the Arizona Diamondbacks both won the World Series one year after Showalter left/was fired as manager, and in some circles he is credited for building those teams into championship caliber clubs.
- Bobby Valentine, age 59. 1117-1072 (.510). Won the National League Pennant with the 2000 New York Mets, losing the World Series 4 games to 1. Has come from Japan before to manage the Mets, so it can be done, and it’s difficult to suggest that he can’t ‘win with less’ as a quick look at the 2000 Mets outfield shows. Perhaps most famous for returning to the dugout in disguise after being ejected from a game.
These are some of the more recent former managers still living. There are others, ranging from Art Howe to Willie Randolph, that I just didn’t feel merited consideration. What do you think?
62 comments
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Good post, Grave. Would love Bobby V. word has it he’s on the gNats radar. Acta is basically counting down his days.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
Also, I touched on this with a post over the wknd. You realize the Mets have FOUR routine, pop fly dops??? FOUR! 2 led to losses. When was the last time do you remember the Mets dropping atleast 2 in a season? After Murphy’s drop on Easter Sunday, that lackadasical work ethic shouldve been nipped in the bud right away. You dont catch the ball with 2 hands, I fine you. You’ll see how differently the team would approach the game.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/15/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
Murphy’s drop
Delgado’s drop
Sheff’s drop
Castillo’s drop?
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
You got it.
Joe R
6/15/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
You cant fine players for not catching the ball with 2 hands. That is the way the game is played in 2009. Very rarely do players use 2 hands. Most players actually do that extra slap the thigh crap after they catch the ball. That you can fine if it results in an error. The bottom line is they just have to catch the ball 2 hands or not.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
Why not? IMO, not catching the ball w/ 2 hands represents laziness and or arrogance. I liken that to doing a show boating dunk in a close basketball game… and missing.
billydeewilliams
6/15/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
I doubt it will ever happen, but you most certainly can fine your team for things like that. and if you do, it sends a message that you mean business and you won’t settle for “the way the game is played in 2009.” You do it for the exact reasons you stated above…to get away from that.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly. Hey, Deon Sanders, it’s ok that you high stepped to the endzone and fumbled the football because hey, it is 1992 and thats just how the game is played.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/15/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
How about Sandy Alomar Sr. I think he’ll be next in line if Jerry gets fired.
But then with only 4 and 1.5 games out of Playoff spots in this injury filled season, I highly doubt Jerry gets fired. It’ll take a lot to fire a manager that has a contract will next year (granted it’s a small contract).
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Highly doubt it’ll be someone from the “old regime”.
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Why not? He has already acted as 3B coach, Bench Coach, 1B Coach, and human shield for Reyes in the Miguel Olivo fight. We could use him around here.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/15/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
He certainly knows what’s a HR or not in Citi Field.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
lol nice.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
No way on Alomar.
We need someone who has not been part of the Willie/Jerry culture of “My guys will get it done/the champagne will taste sweeter/we have X games left/etc etc blah blah blah…..”
mrbill
6/15/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
How about “we are hitting the ball right now, I like that. We’ll eventually get the big hit” (leaving 16 men on base).
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly. Btw, Brock. Had a blast at Yankee on Sat. Me and my boy were officially the “A$$holes of Sec. 434A.” Ha! Considered it an accomplishment. lol To be honest, I really tried to look at it objectively but I dont know what the big deal about the new Stadium is. The “lobby” area is nice. Ill give em that, but Citi is def. much more like “home” while Yank feels like a cold cathedral. I think that was the plan though.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA! Cool Qns…have not been to either place yet, but will be heading to Citi in August at the latest!
dirtysanchez
6/15/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
this has to be the most thought out well written article on this topic i have ever seen…you have outdone yourself mr grave…and thats hard to do considering your post game wrapups lol
prismo
6/15/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
Bobby V should wait out the season…there might be an opening in NY.
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Just wonder how much he and the Wilpons have matured since their falling out. I’d love Bobby V. to come back. Fact is, we haven’t had anyone near the baseball mind of Bobby V. since he was fired by Steve Phillips (if that’s not a blemish on your resume, what is?).
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
Before I make my decision, do we get a father-son discount with that Alou character?
saltygary
6/15/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
Bobby V. 2010
Not making a trade and holding on to the farm is smart. Getting rid of another manager would equal season over.
Joe R
6/15/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Jerry is fine for this team. Dropped pop ups are not his fault. Please hold the players accountable.
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
I think people are tired of Jerry’s act. I personally like him, but wouldn’t fire him unless we are going to go full speed ahead at Bobby V.
Joe R
6/15/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Whats his act? Listen I cant say I’m exempt from juping on the Get Jerry Outta Here movement at some points this year. What changed for me was actually listening to him last week explain some of the moves he made and why. They were very rational for the most part and made me say…hm…I didnt think of that.
Look at the Santos short swing episode early in the year..Yes maybe coming from the bullpen was a bit extreme but now we have seen Santos jerk the ball over the wall a few times. Maybe Jerry knows more than we do sometimes lol The other was when he pinched hit with pagan. Yes it was his hunch but Pagan went like 4 for 5 the next day and continued to hit until he got hurt. IDK I think he is fine.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/15/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree. Lack of fundamental baseball such as dropped popups, base running blunders, etc are Manager’s fault. Not executing in big spots, not scoring with the bases loaded with no outs. That will be players’ fault.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
See my comment above.
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-4:45pm at 4:45 pm (UTC -4)
Dropped pop ups are not the manager’s fault. We all know Luis Castillo is more than capable of catching a pop-up. He goofed in a very bad spot. The ball that went thru Buckner’s legs doesn’t make him a bad fielder. Johnny Damon dropped a routine fly ball in Boston last week. Timing is everything. This was horrible timing to have a ridiculous play.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-4:48pm at 4:48 pm (UTC -4)
Buckner should have been on the bench watching a defensive replacement with the lead in what should have been the last game of the World Series, as he could not run or bend any longer.
100% the manager’s fault.
One or two dropped popups is one thing, but four in 60 games?
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
You remember the last time the Mets dropped 2 pop ups in a season?
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/15/2009-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. 4 dropped popups are manager’s fault. I think it’s the attitude that Jerry brings on the table. I like the loosey goosey type of attitude, but still…
It’s not only the 4 dropped popups. All the base running blunders. As much as I think Razor Shines is a cool dude, he’s been pretty bad.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
I also think it is the attitude of absolutely zero accountability.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
Lackadasical effort = Manager’s fault. You dont catch the ball with 2 hands (The first thing your taught in LL), youre in my dog house (fined, benched). One drop ball is one too many. Kind of interesting how 2 dropped balls led to two losses. We lost out on the playoffs the last 2 yrs by a total of 2 games. How bout them apples..
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/15/2009-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe that’s why Church is in Jerry’s doghouse. But what did Stokes do? I don’t think he dropped a ball this season. Or Castro…
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
Bobby Cox – manager extraordinairre – watched Andruw Jones catch fly balls rather lacksadasically for about 10 years.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-5:04pm at 5:04 pm (UTC -4)
How many did he drop?
How many games did he cost them?
How many times did they miss the postseason by one game?
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t care how many he dropped. Don’t care how many games it cost them. They never missed the post season. But, you can’t just play the game one way because you have had past success or failure. A pop up is a pop up regardless of if you win or lose. Castillo should have gotten under the ball. Don’t know if it was the wind or whatever, but he made a physical error. The mental ones are the manager’s fault.
If a guy fails to get a hit in a clutch spot, is it the manager’s fault too?
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-5:50pm at 5:50 pm (UTC -4)
“If a guy fails to get a hit in a clutch spot, is it the manager’s fault too?”
If he is swigning the bat with one arm after several other instances where guys swung the bat with one arm and failed, yes.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
FOUR dropped popups/fly balls in 60 games?
That is far too many for a little league team.
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
Dropped fly ball from a left fielder who is really a DH, a 1B who is really a DH, and a 2B that really should be retired.
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
Huh? Shef. has played how many games in the OF. Delgado has been a 1st baseman since 1997 and Castillo is only 33.
There's Always '09
6/15/2009-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
The outfield drops were by the Drop-kick Murphys. Delgado has been masquerading as a 1B since his career starter. Castillo hasn’t been a rangey (not sure if that’s a word) 2B in about 5 years. That being said, there is no excuse for a player to drop a pop up. It’s a routine play. But that’s not Manuel’s fault. It’s the player’s fault.
mrbill
6/15/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
love the NEW MANAGER subject a year after Willie got fired. Karma is a b!tch. Isn’t it Jerry Manuel?
QnsNative718
6/15/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
Wasnt as if Jerry had a say in it.
dirtysanchez
6/15/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
Speaking for myself…jerry talked the talk but did not walk the walk. The Jerry that i thought the mets was getting is not the guy i see right now.
mrbill
6/15/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Jerry is a fraud.
stickguy
6/15/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
Quite the list there. If that was the universe t opick from, Knight (just cause I liked him), Gibbons and Showalter have possibilities for various reason.
Even riskier would be to find the next hot thing/young gun (and no, I have no idea who that is) like Scosia. Really start with a clean slate.
Most of the rest of these geezers and retreads can stay far away.
ANd if they go to the minors, maybe the Mass (sp?) guy that was just named the AAA batting coach.
I still think Jerry is part of the problem, but unless something very messy happens, he wil lbe around until the end of the year. Then purged with the rest of the expired goods.
GravediggerHebner
6/15/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
I loved Knight as a player, but I didn’t see much in his managing that would make me covet him for that job.
I agree 100% with the idea of finding the “next young gun” but I don’t think, whether in season or after the season, that if Omar Minaya is the one making the call that he is going to place his future in untested hands.
As I said in the piece, I don’t think changing managers mid year again is the right way to go. If Manuel is to be fired, it should be in the offseason IMO. But if I were in charge of selecting the next guy, and if it had to be someone from this list (I couldn’t possibly begin to imagine the research necessary to uncover the “young guns” so that and my belief that Omar would never go that route is why I went with previous experience) I would go with Showalter.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
I agree on Showalter. Willie was a next young gun.
We need someone to be a hard-driving jerk and change the culture of jogging on the bases and being content with consistently sloppy play.
ceetar
6/15/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
ANY OF THEM.
The problem wasn’t with Willie Randolph, it was simply that they needed a change of opinion. Manuel, who was with the team for all it’s disaster, was never that guy. He came in and said exactly what everyone wanted to hear: he picked the biggest criticisms of Randolph and simply said he’d do the opposite.
Frankly, YOU could do a better job managing this team. There is not one thing I can think of that Manuel has done that’s clearly made this team better, and there is a lot he’s done that made it worse. The one thing you could say is the opposite field drill, however now Manuel and everyone is saying this needs more power. There is a reason most power sluggers are overshifted and pull hitters. I wonder if this opposite field drill and the power numbers are inversely proportional.
Also, I’m not sure Warthen brings anything to the table. I’d kick him to the curb with Manuel, and get someone in here not with the team (and preferably not with the organization). Bring in fresh blood, fresh learning. You could look at Pelfrey and Perez’s second halves last year and say Warthen did a good job, or maybe it was just a new idea that they were able to learn and get better. Maybe he has nothing new to add to the conversation, and they should add someone that has some real talent. It doesn’t have to be a strict regiment guy like Peterson, but regiment tends to work better than improv with pitchers.
dirtysanchez
6/15/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
and we shoudl throw hojo out as well…useless
ceetar
6/15/2009-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
Hojo’s trickier because you do kinda like to keep around the ’86 guys. maybe make him bench coach?
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-5:00pm at 5:00 pm (UTC -4)
If Jerry and Alomar go, everyone else can stay as far as I am concerned….
trs86
6/15/2009-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, Hojo should have already been gone.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
Davey, Bobby V, Buck, or maybe Baylor or Tim Teufel even.
Change is needed, and if we win 10 of our next 15 I will be the very first to say I was wrong.
Four dropped fly balls in 60 games is comedy at this level, as is the unreal number of runners thrown out on the bases the last month.
metsinnats
6/15/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Out of that list I like Bobby V., Buck and Ray Knight, in no particular order. The first two because of their prior experience as a manager in NY, Knight because he does a good job with the Nats pre/post game studio show.
Jerry is not a good manager imho based on his lineups.
Kingman 26
6/15/2009-4:52pm at 4:52 pm (UTC -4)
I just do not understand how some of you guys can be content with the shoddy play!
Four missed fly balls/popups in 60 games, and seriously—have we had ten guys thrown out on the bases the last few weeks? 12?
Missing the bag, running past each other, Santos loafing off of 2nd on Saturday with 2 outs and a grounder hit to 3rd, three guys tossed at 3rd in one game–all of this in the last month!
And guys tossed at home a few times, Beltran not sliding and not hustling, guys tossed at 2nd trying to stretch singles, etc etc etc.
And in 60 games!
Aggressiveness is one thing, and I love aggressiveness, but sloppy play is another thing entirely.
jonnyballgame
6/15/2009-5:43pm at 5:43 pm (UTC -4)
As Ron Darling once said.. “this team needs to get angry and play angry.” – and he is so right.
The new manager walks into the clubhouse, doesn’t say a single word and puts a DVD in the player. He has armed guards at every door. He hits play and makes them watch highlights from the past few seasons. The last images are of the Phillies celebrating after the final out of the WS and then a shots of Victorino and Utley laughing in the dugout, all while the audio from Cole Hamels radio interview is playing. The video ends with 1 straight minute of cole hamels saying “the Mets are chokers” over and over. As the team sits in silence. for a another minute, The new manager takes out a bat and smashes the sh!t out of the tv and the DVD player. Throws a couple of chair and then says some inspiration words.
trs86
6/15/2009-5:46pm at 5:46 pm (UTC -4)
And the grown men that are in there with him laugh at him.
jonnyballgame
6/15/2009-6:01pm at 6:01 pm (UTC -4)
Just because you follow Omar’s country club philosophy, doesn’t mean this style of motivation will not work. It worked for first 90 years of baseball and has only recently become taboo. This team needs a dynamic change and something like that would really get everybody’s attention. This team needs old school desperately.
trs86
6/15/2009-6:11pm at 6:11 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, it worked for 90 years? So that is Joe Torre style? How about Davey Johnson? Come on, no body treats adults like mindless idiots, except for ESPN but that’s another story.
jonnyballgame
6/15/2009-6:26pm at 6:26 pm (UTC -4)
Did Joe Torre or Davey Johnson ever have a team that choked away two straight division titles? If so how did they turn it around? LOL,, How does Torre and Davey’s managing have anything to do with the current situation with the mets?
its a completely different dynamic. Davey’s mets were the most emotional team I’ve ever seen. Fights in the clubhouse, fights on the field.. They didn’t need a manager to act like that. I only think this type of motivation is needed with a team afraid of its own shadow. Which they are.