Of course you could read this on any Mets site. However, maybe I have different reasoning. To me it’s a win-win if they do. 2 things can happen if go all in for Halladay.
1) If the Mets get him they get another Ace to go along with Johan and the potential of Pelfrey. Halladay in Citifield could be lights out.
2) If the Mets don’t get him then at least they will have forced Philly to offer the best package and hopefully overpay in prospects and contract. If the Mets are involved you have to know they would be pushing the extension part. Something Philly may not want or can afford to do.
So the question is, how much is too much? What is all in?
214 comments
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
Great wish! Not gonna happen!
“We’re OK” says Omar!
We’ll hang in there until we
get our guys back.
Then, watch out National League!
trs86
7/8/2009-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
Man, I feel sorry for you having Omar as a step father. JK.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
LMAO
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t know wat juu talkin bout.
Errr…
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
All In = Balls Deep! (too much?)
trs86
7/8/2009-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Depends on the situation.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve taken it upon myself
to moderate you Case.
The words Balls and Deep
triggered it.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
Out of order, I show you out of order. You don’t know what out of order is, Mr. Trask.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
Theres no big trade out there that is going to change this team. Let Philly have him. Its not going to keep the Mets from taking the division or WC. Plus, what good is Halladay going to be when the offense scores 3 runs in an entire wknd and gets shutout more than it has in years? Decimating the farm system would be a senseless move.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
You are aware that theres another draft next year and
the one after that,right?
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
And those players wont be ready for years, so what are you saying?
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
Replentishing
the farm.
Oh, wait, Omars
in charge of that too.
Nevermind!
Lets just stand pat!
trs86
7/8/2009-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
Poor woman.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
You are??
Well atleast you’re rich witth optimisim!
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Draft picks may fill the bottom levels of the farm system. But the Mets problem is the lack of upper level prospects, the types that are more valuable in trade chips and more likely to help the big club.
A farm system can’t be replenished within a draft or two. And ownership really needs to let the Mets be players again in international free agency.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
You honestly think Halladay, a man who plays every 5th day, could turn things around for this team? With an offense that couldnt score runs if they were playing the blind kids from down the block. And youre willing to trade away top prospects from an already mediocre farm system? Nah, bro, this aint the Show 2009.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
So we should trade Johan? He only plays every fifth day. I guess he’s not necessary to winning.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
twice in a day my friend
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
New record!
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
Thats silly. The point Im trying to make is that this team is too in flux that no player IMO, let alone a pitcher, is going to get this team out of this hole. Now if we want to sign Halladay for a long term deal then thats a different story.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
I’m being more a thorn in your side than anything, but today I can’t help but agree that this team is going no where, so why bother.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, we’re in this together. We bleed blue & orange and it hurts to see this team with so much talent in the shape that it is.
gategem
7/8/2009-6:58pm at 6:58 pm (UTC -4)
Well the franchise did trade Tom Seaver.
oleosmirf
7/8/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
agreed. As much as I want Halladay here, I think we should just hope and pray that Pelfrey and Maine figure it out and everyone comes back healthy.
Reyes
Castillo
Beltran
Wright
Delgado
Sheffield
Church
Catcher
they’ll score some serious runs if/when they get back.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think the Mets have enough in the prospect tank to get him. Other than F-Mart and a B prospect like Niese, there’s not much in the near major league ready category.
I don’t think Toronto wants guys like Flores or Mejia that they won’t see for a long time.
The best the Mets can offer is F-Mart (and I don’t think the Jays necessarily will care for him with Rios and Wells locked in with bad contracts forever and Snider and Lind, both of whom may be better than F-Mart), Holt and Niese.
Doubt that gets it done.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
I guess Parnell could be part of the package.
Parnell, Holt, Niese and Martinez?
Probably not that exciting compared to what the Phils can offer.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
can’t throw in Parnell, trs shipped him to San Diego
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:01pm at 3:01 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe we can flip Hairston to Toronto?
stickguy
7/8/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Do I sense some dissension in the blogger ranks here?
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
just some good ole ribbing
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
not to be confused w/ rbi’ing, which the Mets don’t do.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe Ryan Church would do it?
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe Omar can sell them on an ignoramus fan?
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
Invoke your no trade clause Wanny!
We love you
with us!
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
Okay, I can give credit where it’s due.
Touche.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
Never any hard feelings fellow Met fan.
trs86
7/8/2009-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
That’s the point Wanny. I do not think pound for pound the Mets have enough to match up with the Phillies in a trade. However, IF the Mets go all in then either the Phillies will decide it’s too much OR they will at least be kept honest.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah,sort of like
with Raul Ibanez.
mrose
7/8/2009-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
oh come on fongy… in the offseason, many of us wanted ibanez, but at 3 years and what? 31M? for a 37 year old who isnt Manny Ramirez? He had an amazing start to his season, lets just let him finish up the final 2.5 years before we grade that..
wow
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
Just sayin’..
we make it real
tough on
Philly.
Ya know,
like the Braves did with
us on
Lowe.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t understand. In Fong’s world, Omar can cure cancer but would be at fault for not doing it sooner.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Foul ball
smart guy!
Especially to someone who lost his 1st wife to Cancer.
Still,I’m slow to anger.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
I apologize. I was not aware and certainly did not make that statement with the intent to say anything other than that Omar could do no right in your eyes regardless of the result.
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
No prob.
Like I said I’m slow to anger
and not very politically correct myself.
I know you meant no harm and no harm was suffered.
Just giving you a heads-up.
Like about how much Ryan Church sucks
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, snap!
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Church might suck. This is true. But only about as much as Alex Rios sucks.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
How about we go with Church sucks, Rios blows?
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
And Omar takes it from behind?
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Now we’re all on the same page (although Fongy might suggest that Omar only takes it if it’s handed to him).
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
ha, u guys are all out of line?
stickguy
7/8/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
But, Jeter swallows.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
TRS — No doubt that have to pretend to be involved (and surely Ricciardi would play along with that).
mrose
7/8/2009-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
“Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi told Joel Sherman of the New York Post that he won’t provide teams with a window to negotiate a contract extention with Roy Halladay in the event that the Jays deal their ace. Ricciardi made a variety of points about potential trades:” according to MLBTR
that to me…is where I decide “no”
if we could get an extension a la santana..great
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
By doing that he’s ensuring himself of a lesser return. Stupid.
mrose
7/8/2009-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
its true..if we could get a window, I would be open as a fan to trading a lot of the farm
by doing that all he cna really ask for is around a 1st/2nd round prospects and then some, being a team that gets him could lose him after the 2010 season and just get a Type A compensation for him
dirtysanchez
7/8/2009-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
I agree the mets should participate only to keep philly honest but while halladay is a great pitcher and no doubt would be dominant in the NL, he will not help the fact that we cannot score runs.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
See my comments above, Dirty. What good is a guy who plays every 5th day going to do with a team that cant score?
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
At the end of the day, I agree. This team needs to go “all in” on the offensive equivalent of Roy Halladay. Unfortunately I’m not sure who that is and whoever it is I’m pretty sure that his current GM hasn’t made a recent announcement that he’s available.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
But as far as they can take a bluff to call the Phillies, absolutely.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
I think the problem scoring runs will be cured by the return of our injured A-team. Whether that’s too late or not, I don’t know.
One theory is that if you can’t improve your hitting (doesn’t seem a game changer is available) you have to improve your pitching and defense.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent of you to include defense, which at least with a K master like Halladay is less relevant, which in the case of the Mets the lack of defensive relevance is necessary.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Minaya has no time table of when Reyes and Beltran return.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Because you ALWAYS want to improve the team.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
True, but does losing 2 games a week by a score of 1-0 and 3 by a score of 8-0 instead of 1 game 1-0 and 4 games 8-0 improve the team?
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
No but atleast
they’d be watchable!
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
so, Omar should just improve the offense but not the pitching?
fongy2
7/8/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
Omar should just hang himself.
Or shoot me
so I wouldn’t
have to care anymore.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
No but if for the sake of argument we agree the Mets have a finite amount of chips to use to improve the team, what aspect of the team needs more improvement?
The pitching has definitely worsened over the last month, I believe I recall reading the team ERA was 5.00 in June, but at least the pitching exists! The offense is non-existent.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Compared to our hitting, the pitching isnt THAT bad. Which goes to show how IMO, Halladay would not help this team succeed this yr.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
But can he hurt it? Can him going to Philly hurt it? Can we make Philly overpay?
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
true, but I’d throw the goods for a guy like Doc and send lesser prospects for Nick Johnson, Felipe Lopez, or Teabag?
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve lost whatever attraction I once had for singles hitters (that is one thing the Mets already have). But if somehow the Mets could pull in Halladay and still have something left over to bring in a doubles/home run hitter, I would be more inclined to endorse Halladay.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
Thing is, again. Most likely we are not getting Halladay even with our best offer. But our best offer does force Philly to step up.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
TRS true, but again that doesn’t generate posts or comments really.
But more to the point, the Mets can’t even pretend to be in negotiations for Halladay if they make a trade for pretty much anyone of any value, because they will have spent their ammo.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
Case is right guys. If you have a chance to get a guy like Halladay you don’t let the second coming of Alex Escobar stand in your way. And don’t let the fact that we stink now stop you. Halladay with this team healthy would be spectacular.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
So you would sign him long term?
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Oh yeah, 4 years. I agree with you on that QnsNative718, have to sign him.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
No doubt. So 2010 it is, because that’s the only reasonable time anyone can use facts to convince me this team will be healthy. And that will be with Carlos Beltran another year older, and likely without Carlos Delgado, and with some of the money needed to replace him tied up in Halladay.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Grave there is no one to replace Delgado anyway. Besides names like LaRoche and Johnson. Those guys are not going to cost that much.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
I am including replacing him by signing a free agent or trading for either a 1B or a corner OF in my thought process.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
I understand, but besides Bay, most of the guys out there will not break the bank. Remember Halladay will only cost Wagner and Putz’s money next year. Actually there would be some left over.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
But none of this matters because we’re only bluffing to make the Phillies raise anyway? Too many layers here IMO. Do we want to get Halladay or not? Whichever we choose, how do we fill in the rest of the roster? I can’t add the “bluff” aspect and keep a rational line of conversation going, with the “bluff” dangling there to be invoked or not depending on what I’ve stated in the previous comment. As I think I stated somewhere else in this thread (hard to keep track with all the permutations) if we are going to bluff the Phils we are handcuffed from doing anything else because we don’t have the chips to do both.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
now ur starting to scare me.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll disagree when you return to your world and I return to mine.
saltygary
7/8/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Was this post really needed with all the angst going on around here today.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think any of us knows what happens when a post gets to 300 comments and that previous one was getting close, we needed a new thread for our angst.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
This could be the one. Two weeks ago I would have killed for the Mets to get Roy Halladay, now it’s not worth it. We will not compete this year. I don’t think we’ll be competing next year either, but that’s being too realistic for most.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, go all in.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
They may have to borrow from a friend to cover the bet, though.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
Is that a veiled shot at the Texas Rangers? No, no it’s not.
Joe R
7/8/2009-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
We should sign Barry Bonds. obviuously Omar isnt against a guy using steroids on his team, i.e, Sheffield and Mota. What harm would he do. Can he be worse than what we have even defensively or offensively!! At least fans including myself would have a reason to watch and maybe go to a game!!
His knee Im sure is well rested!!!
Joe R
7/8/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Im willing to bet Bonds gives much more production than Tatis at 90 yrs old!
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
If Halladay could get an extra base hit I’d put him at 1B.
stickguy
7/8/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
no they shouldn’t go all in on Halladay.
couple of reasons:
1) any 33 (next year) pitcher is a major risk. At minimum, you can’t look to extend him for years after 2010. Better to offer arbitration, and if he accepts, great. If not, you get 2 high draft picks back.
2) They have way too many holes to fill on the field to go all in on another SP. If they are going to break the farm for someone expensive (and he is expensive) it better be a middle of the order power bat.
3) THe 2009 crew needs major help, but Halladay isn’t where they really need it. So, effectivley for the Mets (unlike the Phils) he is really an early present for 2010, so a 1 year guy.
Interesting spin though on getting the Phils to ovespend. But, he makes way more sense for them, since they are much more a win now situation, and their 1 big hole is a SP. They have enough offense to get by!
trs86
7/8/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
That is why you do go all in. Worst case you end up costing the Phillies more than originally and best case you end up with 2/3 best pitchers in the game.
stickguy
7/8/2009-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
and the same amount of offense next year?
trs86
7/8/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
Why?
Halladay only makes 15 million next year if I remember correctly. That’s Wagner and Putz. That still leaves Delgado, Church, Schnieder cash to get LaRoche or one of the other nobody 1B. Fact is there is no offense really on the FA market anyway. Might as well get the best player if you can’t get what you need.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Does anyone here really think that this unit, even if healthy, will win a championship?
trs86
7/8/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Did anyone think the Phillies could last year after their showing in their one post season in years?
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
I actually won $80 on that Philthy championship.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
“Will” I don’t know, but “could” or “reasonably might” are ways I would put it. In early April I was only really worried about what might happen if Murphy flopped in LF and once acquired if Sheffield had succumbed completely to age and lack of PEDs. I thought the rest of the roster was going to be “in the tournament” and once you’re in it’s possible to win it.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
I think that a group of Santana, K-Rod, Wright, Reyes and Beltran will always have the potential to win because of the level of talent.
The question is whether Beltran’s knees will last and with what they can surround these guys.
It’s possible in the end that these very talented and expensive core (Reyes and Wright start to get expensive next year) will be it own undoing in that the team will not afford quality secondary players.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, although I believe here is an area that we can reasonably lay the blame at Omar’s feet, I think it is he that has spent poorly on the secondary players, not that they were/are unaffordable.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
Only Castillo and Perez come to mind here.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent places to start, and they are $18 million that couldn’t be spent elsewhere this year and the next 3 years. And that’s just this year and going forward. Marlon Anderson? Moises Alou? Pedro Martinez? Tom Glavine? Cliff Floyd? Julio Franco? I’m sure not all of these are perfectly appropriate examples just as sure as I am that I’m overlooking some players that are.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
I think the biggest knock on the Mets organization as a whole is that since Reyes and Wright, they have not produced one impact player organically.
Pelfrey is the closest thing (I can be convinced that as the team’s #2-#3 starter that he should be included already).
The jury is still out on Murphy, Evans, Parnell and Niese but the early returns are not promising.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. Look what Phillies have done (as much as it hurts to say it).
These are all home-grown players
Rollins
Utley
Howard
Hamels
Myers
Vicky (rule 5)
For some reason, NY teams don’t do so well in talent developing department.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
They also plucked Werth for nothing, Feliz for relatively little (he’s no stud but his defense makes him a great supporting role player), Romero for nothing and Madson was also a farm hand.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
Because there is the mistaken belief on the part of the people running NY franchises that a “rebuilding period” is unacceptable, so they do not lose games with a purpose (a long term plan) although they do lose games. But they don’t trade assets for prospects, and they don’t hold onto their draft picks, and they don’t use them well enough when they do hold onto them. They try to always be pretty good, and this prevents them from being great.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
What about the Red Sox? They are always winning. They throw away their draft picks, but they seem to always have good prospects coming up.
I think it’s not so much draft picks that the NY teams are lacking, but scouting and the minor league system.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
The Sox don’t throw away draft picks. (I’m not even sure what that means) They are also not afraid to go over slot to get players they want (such as the red hot Casey Kelly).
Who was the last type A free agent they even signed?
Most of their acquisitions over the years, i.e. Bay, Lowell, Beckett, etc. have been by trade.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
Johan you’re partly right, perhaps mostly right in that it’s the scouting, but in addition to having good scouting you have to have the picks to use it. But overall in scouting, at every level, the Red Sox are doing a better job for the last decade or so than the Mets. As Wanny said, they use that to their advantage in trades more so than they do in free agency. They let free agents leave and take the pics, they would’ve done that with Manny if he weren’t such an ass.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
Sports Illustrated did!
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
so did baseball prospectus
mrbill
7/8/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think so.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
Guys I still think the original intent of the post has been missed. I do not expect that if we go all in that we will get him. If we do then great, he helps us this year and next year and possibly years to come at a price of guys not ready to help us now. If we don’t, which is likely, it at least forces other teams to give their best package in order to get him.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
“GravediggerHebner says:
Wednesday, July 8 2009 at 2:35 pm (Edit)
But as far as they can take a bluff to call the Phillies, absolutely.”
I got that. But I don’t think a debate on that is going to get us to 300 comments!
trs86
7/8/2009-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
LOL.
Joe R
7/8/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
Barry!! Barry!! Barry!!
Cmon guys imagine a 1-2 punch of Sheff and Bonds!!
I know you guys want it! Dont deny yourselves!
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
I’m surprised that some of the cynics have not made the Saberhagen and Frank Viola predictions yet…
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Go All In! I’m all for it!
Who do we give up? I think it’ll take a lot more than 3-4 prospects (although that’s what we gave for Johan). If I were Toronto, I’d want Pelf in return. He’s a proven major leaguer and can be very effective. Would you give up FMart, Pelf and Flores? I would do it.
BTW, here’s an interesting point that Ricciardi said (on MLBTR)
* The Jays have only had preliminary talks with other teams and they’re still trying to decide which teams to assign their scouts to.
* The Jays would like a shortstop, but they’ll pursure the best prospects available.
* The team would have no trouble paying Halladay in 2010.
* Halladay did not ask the Jays to move him.
* Halladay provided a long list of places he wouldn’t play, but Ricciardi didn’t name any teams.
* The Jays value Halladay as a top player in the game so Ricciardi has a gut feeling he’ll keep his ace this summer.
Just like many no-trade players, Halladay’s no trade list probably includes NY teams. There are too mamy question marks and I think Halladay stats with the team.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
I think he may, but bottom line is going all in does not hurt us for at least 3-5 years.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
I agree.
Jon Heyman also brought up very interesting point that Jays will most likely seek a premiere bat and a short stop. The Jays had interest in Phillies shortstop prospect Jason Donald last year.
I wonder if Wilmer Flores and FMart would be attractive to them.. obviously we would also have to give up a pitcher too.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
Most likely not, Flores is too far away. Honestly I don’t think we have the prospects to get it done. But we do have the prospects to make Philly overpay.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
Start pumping up Ruben Tejada right now.
“I love Ruben Tejada. He should be untouchable!”
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
LOL
Ruben will be the next Miguel!!
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
And Argenis Reyes is the BOMB.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
maybe we should send Doc a I <3 NY T-Shirt!
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
I will personally deliver it myself if he’s willing to come to the Mets.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
Too bad Reyes is on the DL, we could flip Reyes for Halladay and Fongy’s man, Rios. (I kid, of course. I don’t believe in breaking up the core).
trs86
7/8/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Ok and here is another thing to look at. What game changing bat is available? None that I know of. So maybe Halladay does not help us win it this year, are we not much better with him next year? Is it not possible that he provides us a better chance this year at hanging on until our hitters are back than Huff would? Is it not possible that we could be very good next year with Johan and Roy?
mrose
7/8/2009-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Johan, Roy, Pelf, maybe Oli? healthy Maine
nice rotation
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
Livan?
trs86
7/8/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
Who is Livan? Oh that guy we have this year for now.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
future hall of famer, Mr. Met, el hombre
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
I seriously think Pelf would be in the deal to get Halladay.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe? Don’t know. I would think they want someone under control for longer.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
Pelf is still controllable for another few years, no? He came through the system (too) fast.
I agree that Ricciardi would have to try to include him in the deal and did not even consider that before.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
When does he become a FA?
trs86
7/8/2009-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
I would think 3 more years right?
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
I think if Pelf is dealt along with FMart and Flores, Jays may bite. But it is a hefty price for 1.5 year rental.
I would do it only if there’s a contract extension.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
With those two guys in the front, maybe the Mets could trade Ollie (paying as much of his contract as rules allow) in hopes of clearing out some of the distractions and circus events.
You can go with Maine and Niese/Holt in the 4-5 spots with three horses in the front. Of course, Maine might be too expensive to retain.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, IF Halladay was here I don’t think we would have Niese and Holt though.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
right. i forget we’re giving to get here.
stickguy
7/8/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
TRS, I get your concept of forcing the phils to dig deep.
But, I doubt the Mets have to get involved to do that.
Enough teams should be in on him that if you want to play, you gotta pay. He isn’t gong to be sold cheap.
As to which hitters? Hey, everyone is available for the right price.
I still wouldn’t mind seeing them work out something on Hawpe (when is he a FA anyway?)
Whatever. Interesting debate.
But to be a contrarian, i say if they get him, DO NOT fire up a big extension. Wait until next year at least. I have a bad feeling that he is going to start breaking down soon, and do you want to be paying a SP 20 million at age 38?
LT deals for a SP, especially an aging one, are risky business, and the Mets already have one in Johan.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Hawpe runs the risk of the same thing any Rockies player does. I want no part of a large contract for any of them.
And what teams are involved that will run up the price? Yankee’s and Sox are already out. That leaves really Dodgers, not needed, Phillies, Angels (won’t give up enough or sign him longterm).
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
Hawpe also makes Gary Sheffield look like Devon White in the outfield.
I don’t think many teams will be involved in the Halladay sweeps because I don’t think many teams can afford to re-sign him and will not want to trade the farm for a season and a half of him. Also, I think a lot of teams know he will not approve a trade to their team.
But most of all, the Mets involvement drives the price up because Philly won’t care so much if they lose out to the Indians. But losing out to the Mets will have a direct effect.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly. I still think I am on to something here.
Put your BEST package out there and let it slip that you are willing to go 5/100 for him.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with you that enough teams will be in it to make the Phils be competitive for the bid. Also I don’t think Phillies are not stupid to overpay for him. Their front office have done a nice job in terms of bringing in right guys.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
TRS’s strategy to drive the price up on Phillie is probably the best case scenario here, considering our lack of upper level prospects.
If Philly is going to get him anyway, at least we can force them to lose a bigger piece of their future.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly or perhaps we even force him to another team by showing our hand (through unnamed sources of course) that we are willing to give a big extension.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly I think a sleeper may be the Braves. They have Escobar and some nice prospects.
trs86
7/8/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Could you imagine
Halladay, Lowe, Jar Jar Binks, Hanson and Vasquez?
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
Vasquez would have to be dealt; they could never afford that rotation and are still paying Tim Hudson too.
But they do probably have the goods to make the deal even after giving some prospects for McLouth: Escobar, Kris Medlen (P), Freddie Freeman (1b) and Tyler Flowers (c) would be an attractive package.
I don’t think they would include Jason Heyward.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
Who’s hitting?
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
With that rotation they wouldn’t have to score much.
phillies09
7/8/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
hey everyone….can’t talk but just thought i’d foward this
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Phillies-are-considered-leaders-to-acquire-Halla?urn=mlb,175454
not taunting!!!! swear! i just felt it was relative
mrose
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
eh i think its frontrunners IF he is gonna get traded
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
hmmmm… That would really suck… really really suck…
phillies09
7/8/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
true which I don’t think he will be. honestly I think the whole phillies front runner thing is complete 100% speculation. I still think they’re eyeing a blanton type of guy and not willing to spend the $ for Halladay
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
Halladay is only owed $7 mil for the remainder of this season. If the Phillies get Halladay, they should be favorites for WS. Unless Phillies are hesitant on giving up their prospects, I don’t see how this cannot be done.
Having said that I still think Jays will hold on to him till this offseason.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
Coming from the Post, I believe none of it. Just another attempt to diss the Mets.
QnsNative718
7/8/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Thats the only reason why I switched over to the News.
phillies09
7/8/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
everyones out to get the mets!!! psh!
but back to DND…as curt schilling said about the red sox pursuing Halladay…isn’t that what the farm systems for?? Use it!!
mrose
7/8/2009-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
seriously man, the new york post is horrendous…
anyone ever read phil mushnick? lol
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
putz dushnick?
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with you. If I were in your shoes, I’d give up anything and everything to get Halladay.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
It is generally accepted in NY that the Daily News is “the Met paper” and that the NY Post is “the Yankee paper” and it is fairly common for each paper to publish articles that tweak the other team.
So in this case it is plausible. But to be fair, yes there is sometimes a paranoia that should not exist.
phillies09
7/8/2009-4:10pm at 4:10 pm (UTC -4)
speaking of paranoia…espn reports that the phillies are thrilled with the condition of pedro..NOOOOO
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
It is looking like Pedro to the Phils to me. I mean it’s been the classic progression from: not interested, not going to look, going to look, not impressed, impressed…Congratulations!
mrose
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
blue jays release BJ Ryan http://www.twitter.com/nleastchatter
wow
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
wow! That’s a big investment to throw away. They must have some sort of insurance.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
He’s obviously not healthy.
But for league minimum, why not take a shot?
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
Cora
Murphy
Wright
Sheffield
Church
Reed
Schneider
Castillo
Perez
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Can we please bat Castillo at the top of the order where his ability to scratch his way to first base might serve a valuable role in front of Wright and Sheffield?
Hiroki Kuroda is the anti-Ollie. He pounds the strike zone. He’ll give up runs but nothing’s for free.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
poor Castillo
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
I am with you 100% on the Castillo at the top thing! Although I was shocked to discover these stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=castilu01&year=2009&t=b#lineu
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Even given these numbers though I still find him more valuable 2nd than 8th because he’ll score more runs 2nd.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
He has a .400+ OBP batting second and eighth. If i have to choose which of those spots to put my .400 OBP guy — 2nd wins in a heartbeat.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, I was just surprised to find that the 8th place numbers were so good, I had the “feeling” that they were much worse.
oleosmirf
7/8/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
and people wonder why the Mets can’t win.
the lineup Manuel has to put out there everyday is pathetic.
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
who else is there for him to put in?
oleosmirf
7/8/2009-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
thats the point. Manuel’s hands are tied…
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
unfortunately hindsight is 20/20
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
sounds like runs to me!
mrose
7/8/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
is the new ad too big on http://www.nleastchatter.com ???
phillies09
7/8/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
not if it pays the bills
mrose
7/8/2009-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
if you click on it, it will
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
I just clicked on it. I want half
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
“Give me half Eddie, give me half!”
mrose
7/8/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
lets see, 1000 clicks gives us a quarter
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
lol when do i’s gets paid???!!!???
saltygary
7/8/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
Nope have a ad-blocker on my browser
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Me too. Love it!
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
Buster Olney’s Take
The early line on who could win the Halladay trade sweepstakes
Phillies 5:2
Dodgers 8:1
Angels 8:1
Brewers 12:1
Red Sox 15:1
Rockies 20:1
Rangers 20:1
Yankees 20:1
Cardinals 50:1
Mets 100:1
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
So he seriously believes the Jays would send Halladay to a division foe? I certainly believe the Red Sox have the talent to flip, but the Yankees? Olney, you crack me up sometimes.
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
Yanks would have to give up Joba, Hughes, Melky, and a top prospect.
trs86
7/8/2009-5:17pm at 5:17 pm (UTC -4)
What the hell would the Jays want with a Melky?
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think Melky is that great either (except defensively), but it would be nice for Toronto to have an OF who allegedly was never on steroids.
trs86
7/8/2009-5:53pm at 5:53 pm (UTC -4)
Melky is terrible and they already have 5 OF better than him.
mrose
7/8/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
BIG @HackswithHaggs: RT: @PawSox Mets SS Jose Reyes will be playing in Pawtucket tomorrow & maybe Friday – Great seats available
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
u serious?
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
bluejays release b.j ryan – do we make a go at him?
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
didn’t we have 2 jose reyes?
rustyjr
7/8/2009-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
still wondering why we havent promoted michel abreu or mike lamb? abreu is a power hitter and lamb is a proven major leauger btw whats the betting line that Manuel quits the job before next season and lifts the shroud of secrecy on the mets front office? and BRING BACK VAL PASCUCCI !!!!
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
I say we get halladay and make a run at this thing for next year. Told you guys before the Phils are going to get him. I think they’ll trade everything they’ve got for him. If Omar doesn’t do everything in his power to make sure Halladay is not a Philly, he needs to go.
If Halladay goes to the Phils, they will dominate the division for this year, next year, and however long they extend him for.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-4:39pm at 4:39 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think it will get that far, but I can’t imagine him approving a trade there for a couple weird reasons: He wants to win, and how often do NL teams win back-to-back WS; and he wants to make big money on his next contract, and even a quality pitcher such as he is will suffer a bit in that ballpark (not as much as is exaggerated, but a bit) and the hit to his stats will be a hit to his wallet.
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-4:48pm at 4:48 pm (UTC -4)
I hope you’re right. But if you’re not, consider the Phillies the NL Champs again this year (at the very least).
Also, when talking about the hit to his stats, take into accoutn that he currently is pitching on an artificial surface. Balls get through the infield and to the gaps much quicker than they would on grass.
trs86
7/8/2009-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
Something else to consider. 2008 Cubs.
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
2008 Cubs had a great season. Phillies have already won a championship and it’s pretty safe to say that this group of Phils won’t choke anything away.
TRS, I love you dog, but if you don’t think getting a real pitcher like Halladay to go with the best lineup in baseball is checkmate, then you have your blue and orange blinders on. Getting Halladay means they are better than us defensively, offensively, and now pitching.
trs86
7/8/2009-5:51pm at 5:51 pm (UTC -4)
First the Phillies don’t have the best lineup in baseball.
2 I did not say that if they got Halladay WE would win. I am saying that with or without Halladay they most likely will NOT repeat as NL teams don’t repeat AND no matter how good the team is they can be ran out of the playoffs quick.
GravediggerHebner
7/8/2009-5:41pm at 5:41 pm (UTC -4)
You make a very good point about the ground balls. I can’t find the actual GB/FB ratio, but in looking at his “hit trajectory” stats on b-r, he has given up 191 ground balls, 85 fly balls and 64 line drives, and the Phillies MIF defense is more appetizing than ours.
If he goes there it makes them from favorites to FAVORITES but as Met fans if we’ve learned nothing else it’s that pennants aren’t won on paper.
There's Always '09
7/8/2009-5:49pm at 5:49 pm (UTC -4)
They aren’t won on paper, but this would be a severe blow to our chances this and next year.
trs86
7/8/2009-5:52pm at 5:52 pm (UTC -4)
It would be for our chances but does not give them anything in terms of NL champs or WS champs.