“We’ve (1962 New York Mets) got to learn to stay out of triple plays.” Casey Stengel
Here’s what you missed on Tuesday, July 7, 2009:
- This Date In Mets Infamy With Rusty 7-7-09 by rustyjr
- Morning Open Thread by CaseStreet
- Angel Pagan Is On His Way Back from the DL (Again) by CaseStreet
- Draft And Follow 7-7-09 by GravediggerHebner
- Trade Rumor: Is Roy Halladay a Future Met? by CaseStreet
- Gameday Weather 7-7-09 by prismo
- An In-Depth Look At… Clayton Kershaw. by QnsNative718
- Omar Minaya on Reyes, Beltran, Delgado and Trades by CaseStreet
- Game Thread: Mets (39-42) vs Dodgers (52-30) by dirtysanchez
- Post Game: Mismatch by GravediggerHebner
You got something to say? Say it on The Real Dirty Mets Blog!
63 comments
rustyjr
7/8/2009-7:37am at 7:37 am (UTC -4)
i posted this on the previous thread
just had to say i was floored by omars comments last night about making deals – im sure he has something up his sleeve and he won’t tip his hand – but come out and admit that we are in a dark time !!! don’t promise us reyes and beltran coming back when you can’t even tell us when !! and seriously where is fred and jeff throughout all of this?? on their annual European Vacation?? – these are the times I wish the fat man fatcesspool would call out the team and get the ownership on the line cuz he has a knack for taking them to task & demoralizing them on the air when they deserve it – remember after the Art Howe firing in ‘04 he threw them into the firey pit which enabled us to get rid of the small market mindset thats quickly creeping back in to our ownerships vocabulary? sorry had to vent
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-8:42am at 8:42 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know who is to blame, but I have to agree Rusty. The attitude of Omar and Jerry shocks me. Jerry was saying a while back that we can’t win. Omar is alluding to the fact that this season is a loss. I realize this season is pretty much over, but they should put on a different front as leaders of an organization. I have been extremely optimistic. I would love for the Mets to go get Halladay (yes I would give up 3 of our top 4 prospects). But to what end? We won’t win this season with or without Halladay. I don’t think next season will be too bright either. (Committing heresy: Santana’s peripheral stats have shown a steady decline over the past two seasons. He won’t be the same Johan next season). Shouldn’t Wright be growing into more power? Not less? Reyes hasn’t gone to the next level, now with leg injuries he may never go there. Who plays first next year? Catcher? I hate to be a downer, and I realize that I’m in a real low moment with all the bad news, but next year could be lost.
stickguy
7/8/2009-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
I think you are being way too pessimistic on 2010. If nothing else, you are looking at the worst case in every scenerio.
Unless Reyes or Beltran is done entirely, or gets hurt again next year for the season, they should be fine.
And the holes will get filled. Maybe not perfectly, but certainly with better than they have now.
saltygary
7/8/2009-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
What’s Omar gonna say, “don’t bother coming to the games because the team sucks and I can’t trade FMart for 2 OF’s a SP and 1b”? It is what it is, this team is feeling sorry for themselves and they quit. Manuel can’t be fired because the team doesn’t want to carry 2 fired managers on the payroll. There are too many teams in contention so the trade market will be tight and a I don’t know what a trade might do. And if you were the Wilpons and had 150mil on a sinking ship, would you drop 10 million more for a piece of gum to put in the leak?
Just got to hang in there. There are too many issues for there to be a quick fix right now.
dirtysanchez
7/8/2009-8:51am at 8:51 am (UTC -4)
agreed 100%. I dont understand why people are so “floored” and “surprised” at what omar said. What was he supposed to say. Can you imagine being him. After presiding over two failed campaigns to be going through this. Your major stars are injured and every other trade partner has you by the juevos. Its not like omar doesnt want to do something to help but its just that he cant. Hes not going to throw away the future for this year. Just gotta hope for the best and thats what omar said….
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
The thing is, look at when the team was healthy. April. We weren’t that good then. This team is flawed and they’ve tried the “piece of gum to plug a leak” already. Alou, Santana, K-Rod. It’s not working.
dirtysanchez
7/8/2009-8:58am at 8:58 am (UTC -4)
i remember gado/tron getting off to hot starts because of the wbc…
darknova306
7/8/2009-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
Exactly. Omar needs to swallow his pride and rebuild this team properly. As guys come back from injury we should look at what kind of talent we can get for them. Reyes/Wright/Delgado/Beltran could land some serious talent/prospects. Go for the kind of fire-sale/rebuilding the Marlins do after winning a WS, use the current stars to get the talent to win 3-4 years down the road (and we have the money to keep that talent, unlike Florida). I’d be fine with that if that’s what I knew was going on.
dirtysanchez
7/8/2009-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
its not about pride….its about putting a winning product on the field. Do you really think in a brand new stadium he is going to sell off pieces and wave the white flag. While that may be what you want..its is not very realistic and highly unlikely
udontmesswthejohan
7/8/2009-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
So trade Reyes, Wright and Beltran, so we can hope they develop into the next Reyes, Wright, and Beltran in 3 or 4 years????
That doesn’t make sense. Everyone needs to relax. Yes for all intents and purposes, this year is shot, the important thing now is to not do anything drastic that will end up setting back this orginization for the next decade.
saltygary
7/8/2009-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
This is NY, NY doesn’t rebuild. Look what happened to the Rangers and Knicks franchises. The fan-bases aren’t able to give up 3 years for the future while still putting money up for games and merch, it won’t happen. Shea was a ghost town in the early and mid nineties, CitiFields price tag can’t handle that right now.
darknova306
7/8/2009-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
I agree with your points, but that’s part of what pisses me off about this team/market. No team here rebuilds properly. I understand it won’t/can’t happen, but I can vent about it.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
Santana and K-Rod are “gum”? I think not.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
In the sense that we’re not winning with them, yes.
mrose
7/8/2009-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
hard to do much when you have them but are missing the rest of the core of your team
how would the phillies do without howard, ibanez, lets throw in blanton, and maybe rollins ?
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
So no matter who Omar brought in, since the Mets are not winning, the guys brought in are “gum to plug leaks”?
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
For this team, yes. It has gotten worse and worse over the last three seasons. We need to change the culture, not stick with the Oliver Perez’s of this team.
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
Case, I know what you’re saying about Santana being great and K-Rod being solid, but the fact is that Omar is addressing one problem at a time and that’s what makes it “gum plugging a leak.”
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
I get ur point, but to me, they’re super plugs, just that Omar didn’t plug All the leaks.
mrbill
7/8/2009-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Agreed 100% Saber. K-Rod and Putz were not enough for 2009. The thing is people are going to blame this season just on the injuries when it is more than that.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
What would’ve been? An OF bat, maybe? Don’t think so. It’s the injuries.
stickguy
7/8/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
still case, not getting an OF bat on a ST deal when they were available was a big mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
Heck, just having Abreu in LF all year (assuming he didnt get hurt too!) would have helped immensely
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
If it’s only the injuries Case I have to ask.
Was Castillo injured when he dropped that pop fly?
Was Church injured when he didn’t touch third?
Was Murphy injured on all his miscues?
Were Pagan and Beltran injured when they didn’t make the catch in LA?
Was Fernando injured when he didn’t play the ball right in Milwaukee?
Was Beltran injured on his two non-slides?
This team is not that great. I love them, but there need to be wholesale changes. I’m not saying Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Santana, K-Rod, or Pelfrey, but a good portion of the rest.
mrbill
7/8/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Was Wright injured last night on that lazy play that would have been a tailored made DP?
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
no, but could it be that the injuries have led to a loser mentality, kind of like it has here?
mrbill
7/8/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Before the injuries the team was not playing good baseball.
mrbill
7/8/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
What would’ve been? An OF bat, maybe?
YES! a bat and a starting pitcher. Perez signing was a mistake.
dirtysanchez
7/8/2009-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
What a first half lol….just gotta hope that the second half goes better. I mean theres no where to go but up. I honestly dont think the phills are running away with this division and because of that, we will be in it all year. We will get our CF,SS,1b,8th inning guy, and another closer by stretch time..just got to keep things close. No im not talking .500 but stay 5-6 games behind
mrbill
7/8/2009-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
5-6 games behind? the team could not win ONE game make the playoffs with a healthy core. This team was in trouble before the season started. Putz and K-Rod were not enough.
saltygary
7/8/2009-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Honestly all I want is these guys to walk around with a little dignity and just try to enjoy being out there. This feeling sorry crap doesn’t cut it.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
I’m still hoping to be at .500 by the trade deadline. Crazier things have happened.
Re: Omar’s comments about trades, I think he’s right. I don’t want them to trade everyone just thinking about this year. At the same time, though, once the deadline come’s, I expect Omar to make some moves to improve the team. Will it be a big name like Halladay or Holliday, probably not, it’s not Omar’s style. But I do expect some marginal moves that will help the team get over the hump.
Healthy DL team + AAAA squad + marginal moves + Phillies Suck = playoff run
sabermetrician
7/8/2009-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
So if the Philthies land Halladay will you throw in the towel?
dirtysanchez
7/8/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
no…halladay is only one day
mrbill
7/8/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
lol dirty…
Joe R
7/8/2009-9:25am at 9:25 am (UTC -4)
Hey guys please feel free to give me hope but I really really am close, and when i say close I mean like 98% ready to throw the towel in. Im not blaming anyone because I agree what can Omar do?
Last night Castillo again not hustling on the bases then throwing the ball away. Wright who you can disagree with me, I know he’s batting .320 is having an awful year imo. No power and I’m not buying the Citi Field experiment. He has been hot 3 times this year and the rest has been history. A lazy throw yesterday as well. Omar does need to stop NOW saying there is no trade he can make that would be better than getting Reyes, Beltran, Delgado, etc back. He has said it since Delgado went down and he just adds another name when that player gets injured. I get not being able to make a trade but OMAR we have needed a bat and a Starter for the last couple of years since Alou didnt pan out!!
I said it last week and of course Omar made me laugh listening to him last night as I shook my head. Its not a setback?? Reyes’s new rehab thereapy blood transfusion lol didnt work and now a cortisone shot. He still feels pain?? So he is not coming back anytime soon and i see the press conference when Omar says we did all we could do including new therapy procedures but Jose hasnt responded. He will pack it in for the year…Beltran now not coming back after the All Star break..Question..so he comes back when the swelling goes down enough for him to play with no pain..hm..what is going to stop the pain from coming back 3 weeks into his return? Delgado prob late August along with Putz and Wagner will just be too late imo. Pelfrey I am MOST UPSET with. We thought after the second half of last year he had matured and found a winning formula!! Obviuously not.. One good game one bad…just like in the past. He hasnt won at home in like 6 games and our number 2 has almost a 5 era. Horrible! Maine who knows..setback after setback.
All the above has made me 98% ready to throw the towel in. I really tried to hang in and this team, or the horrible play by the Phils, has given me hope the last 2 months but it is almost time to plan for next year. So painful.
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
Ollie is coming back tonight
Did that cheer you up?
saltygary
7/8/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
I think I just got a little vomit in my mouth.
saltygary
7/8/2009-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
So what is giving up to you?
Unfortunately for me I don’t feel like dropping money to the DMV to change my vanity plate.
It’s baseball dude, the lows make the highs that much better. Theoretically in a balanced league the Mets and any other team should win only once every 30 years.
udontmesswthejohan
7/8/2009-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
“Theoretically in a balanced league the Mets and any other team should win only once every 30 years.”
Haha – I’ve never heard that rationalization before.
mrose
7/8/2009-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
well, its technically true…30 teams… etc
obviously its not perfect
saltygary
7/8/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
LOL yea I was reaching on that one.
charlie_s
7/8/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
Well, if you based it on payroll, the Mets should have a 1.54 in 30 chance of winning. Since not all teams put a competitive team on the field, it’s not an equal playing field. The Yankees, of course, have the best chance of winning based on having the highest payroll at 2.28 in 30. The Marlins, with the lowest payroll, are at the bottom with only a 0.42 in 30 chance of winning.
There are 13 teams with a 1.00 or better chance in 30 and 17 teams with less than a 1.00 in 30 chance.
Of course, Tampa is near the bottom, but they have talent that deserves a higher payroll and it will adjust down once these players reach free agency. Team success and low revenues is the kiss of death because the team drafts lower and has less money to keep the stars it develops or purchase free agents.
I’m sure my analysis, which took 5 seconds, is mostly invalid. But, nonetheless, it’s interesting.
Joe R
7/8/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
Giving up is me not expecting post season baseball. Thats it not that complicated.
mrbill
7/8/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Wait, there are some good news… Last night Beltran said his knee feels better because he hasn’t been playing. The only problem is that it hurts when he walks…. lol
Joe R
7/8/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
HAHAHAHA…This is the insanity that are the METS!
charlie_s
7/8/2009-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Fourth Place + 4.5 games out + half the season in = crap division
CaseStreet
7/8/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
NL LEAST
charlie_s
7/8/2009-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Yup. It’s the only thing that keeps hope alive.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/8/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Looks like the Nats are not trading Dunn for sure….
Lidge took the loss last night.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Has everyone pounded Brad Lidge this season but the mets?
prismo
7/8/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Just wondering…when was the last time the Mets made a big offensive acquisition? How many years ago? Trading or free agency.
saltygary
7/8/2009-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
Does Matt Lawton count?
stickguy
7/8/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
FA was Beltran. Trade? Do you count Nady? If not, Delgado, and before him, Piazza.
wannybackstra
7/8/2009-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
What’s the difference? When the lineup was healthy the last three years it finished either first or second in the NL in runs.
The lineup’s problem right now is not that it passed up Bobby Abreu or Matt Holliday. The problem is that 3 of its 4 best players including the leadoff hitter and the 3rd and 4th hitters are injured.
stickguy
7/8/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Man, this comment ended up longer than some of the editorial posts!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%
The Angst level it does keep rising!
I wonder too what “giving up” means to different people?
I can “give up” on a season, but that just means I don’t expect them to do very good or make the playoffs. i don’t give up on the team (watching, coming here, etc.). And, I have no problem looking at 2010 and hoping for better times.
And before Dirty chastises me, I know that they are still in it (4.5 back), so mathmatically, of course they can make a run, and we should certainly hope and pull for one.
Still, trying to look at the situation objectively, do you really feel in you (jerry) gut that they will be able to do it? I am not feeling it, but that is the difference between hope and expectations (faith and reality?)
SO, to sum up my current feelings, I don’t know what will happen. But if I had to guess, they will slip closer to 10 back by 8/1, and that could be too much to make up. And unless the Phils keep scuffling, it could be worse.
I also dont think Omar should mortgage the future for a band aid (rental), in a long shot bid to make the playoffs.
And I think the calvery is a mirage (2 kids with a pop gun). Odds are some of it doesnt come back at all, and none comes back by the trade deadline. And if guys do come back, they will probably need time to get into any kind of productive groove.
I also though blame Omar for not making some minor adjustments, where possible, to put a better product on the field. Either call up more veteran guys instead of F Mart, or making a minor deal for a salary dump of some kind.
To be fair though, the guys that have been traded (including Derosa and Hairston) have gotten back pretty high level prospect packages. I don’t blame Omar for not trading Neise and Holt for Hairston.
Maybe closer to the deadline some teams with money issue swill blink? WHo knows, but by then, we should know if it even matters.
Final point, any moves now will likely require an emergency funding authorization from the wilpons, and better be for a guy or guys that can fill some of the gapoing holes for 2010 (say, Rios? even overbay).
OK, done for now!
stickguy
7/8/2009-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
Also, team fortunes can fluctuate wildly year to year (and yes, usually due to injuries!). 2 years back the tigers were hot stuff, last year they sucked, this year good again. ANd look at the jump the Rays made.
A few new guys, a breakout year, some health, and suddenly a team can go from mediocre to in the playoffs.
besides, the Phils arent going to be getting better IMO over the next few years. I think they peaked. No idea of course what to expect out of the Marlins (fire sale anyone? I think they are building toward the new stadium) or the Braves.
So really, this year IMO does not accurately predict next year.
Joe R
7/8/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
This year predicts this year. I expected post season play or at least a really good shot at it. Now I dont. Its really not that hard. Of course this year doesnt predict the next…doesnt that pretty much go without saying.I would hope next year at this time our roster doesnt include Reyes, Beltran, Delgado, Putz, maine, etc on the DL. Not getting your point??
steveo
7/8/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
I just can’t buy into th 1 player can’t make a difference thing.I can’t drink the omar cool aid.1 player might be the 1 getting the bases loaded hit or making the catch in the field, you have to remember one player added is one lousy player subtracted,And that my friends is a big deal in itself.
mrbill
7/8/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
1 player can make a huge difference… i.e. Manny Ramirez in 2008.
fongy2
7/8/2009-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
What the hey?!
Alot of you guys are starting to
sound like me!!
Look, you’ll all feel alot better
if ya lower expectations and accept
what is. For 35 yrs I found a way to
pick my Mets to win the division
every year. I also picked my Mets
to win it all about 10 times over
the years. Not this season though!
I had them as a 10 over .500 type
team,85to87 Wins. Likely enough to
compete for the Division and Wildcard
BUT just as likely to finish as the
last two seasons,close but no cigar!
Great job by Omar rebuilding the Pen
ofcourse again,the biggest factor was
spending money which he is world class
doing. WE ALL waited and waited for
a bat or two as well as re-setting
the rotation.Omar then allowed himself
to get bogged down with Boras on Lowe
before finally turning back to Ollie
which we all knew was like flipping
a coin,a 50/50 chance of being real
good or real bad. Move after move was
made by GM after GM,eventually leaving
still a pretty good group of pretty
good players who were all available
real cheap AND short term.It was almost like b/c of that Omar had no
interest.If these players demanded
more would they have been more attractive to Omar? He seemed to not
express ANY interest in the likes of
Hudson,Abreu,Dunn,Millar etc,etc.
Yes,I know,I know we had a 2Bman,
blah,blah,blah…what could we do?
As if THAT type situation has never
developed before. A smart,cagey and
creative GM would have figured out
away to somehow move Castillos contract to clear way for Hudson,
which b/t/w shouldn’t have been blocked in the first place given
WE ALL knew Hudson was gonna be free
and WANTED to play here. A smart GM
would have featured Murphy,Evans&FMart
in our first season at Buffalo learning their trade/a position.
But NO! Omar preached about Pitching
and Defense while giving us THIS Defensive team. With the Starting-
Pitching,he signed a BAD MLB Pitcher
coming off an injury in Redding at
break neck speed before again playing
games for months w/Boras focusing on
just Lowe then Ollie. Many of us joked
about Omars inability to multitask but
really it wasn’t and isn’t funny.
Mostly b/c it seems true. We all know
about Madoff BUT that doesn’t excuse
Omar from not being creative.
This team needed a few fresh faces/
personalities after what happened the
last couple seasons and we all knew
it. Omar saddly didn’t. So, this,
despite the injuries, is a shock???
Joe R
7/8/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Castillo is the worst player in baseball. It was nice watching Hudson catch a pop up with 2 hands and full concentration like it was game 7 of the World Series. Castillo has 16 rbi’s and OBP is not that good. All he does is slap the ball worse than a pitcher. Sorry i just love to rant on him. Yes the chemistry could have been changed with dumping the bum and signing a player that actually wanted to be a MET unlike Delgado who I do like…just saying!!
fongy2
7/8/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
I donot disagree! I wouldn’t
want Castillo on a 1yr let alone a 4yr contract. And I
agree about Delgado who I also
like and respect BUT his statement about Tony B. 5yrs
ago says it all.Not about him
so much as about Omar and his staff.omar was never gonna move Castillo b/c he loves
the guy.Hence the reason he
was overpaid and signed long
term while there was no real
compition for him AND at break
neck speed. We all spent hours
and hours discussing Hudson
BUT that was never gonna happen b/c omar had his guy
@2B. We should have know this
though since this is Omars M.O.. See:Alou,Franco et.al.
before Castillo.
charlie_s
7/8/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
You know, a thought occurred to me:
Is it possible that the Wilpons have focused so much on building a stadium that they took their eye off the actual product?
This team seems leaderless, from owner on down to players and farm system.