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by kingman 26
Per Adam Rubin:
Jeff Francoeur has been acquired from the Braves for Ryan Church and cash.
7/10/2009-6:17pm at 6:17 pm (UTC -4)
It will be interesting to find out if he can ever hit again, he’s certainly a defensive stalwart.
7/10/2009-6:18pm at 6:18 pm (UTC -4)
and the Mets should have him under control through 2011 or 2012 (he has 3.088 years of service).
I just saw this on SNY. I don’t like it. What does this do for the team?
My opinion is this had more to do with Jerry’s not liking Church at all than trading for any kind of help for this team.
7/10/2009-6:20pm at 6:20 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not a big fan of this trade to be honest…sure frenchy is 5 years younger and under team control for longer, but he makes more money and isnt hitting much better than murphy! (who i am a big fan of btw, but needs more consistent playing time)
sure he could be part of “the core” if he ever regains his hitting, but who knows. interesting to see on mlbtraderumors that fans of both side are not in favor of this move. church was finally playing well with consistent time!
7/10/2009-6:22pm at 6:22 pm (UTC -4)
Why? So I guess Church plays his final game for the Mets tonight. I mean Ryan is by no means an All Star but I liked him as a player and Met. This is essentially trading him for a younger, right handed version of himself with a subpar bat. Hojo isnt going to fix Frenchy, so Idk…. I’m baffled.
And heard about an hour ago that Pagan is back with the club and they sent Evans down. Now…with this trade, they supposedly brought Evans back? If so, someone else had to be sent down.
I can’t keep up…..
7/10/2009-6:25pm at 6:25 pm (UTC -4)
possibly Evans just stays until Francoeur arrives? I don’t know what the truth is. Clearly Church can’t play tonight (as someone suggested above) as he is now property of the Braves.
7/10/2009-6:29pm at 6:29 pm (UTC -4)
Ha! I didn’t see your post before I replied. You are probably correct.
7/10/2009-6:28pm at 6:28 pm (UTC -4)
Ah….I guess Evans stays until JF makes his way over to the team…
7/10/2009-10:20pm at 10:20 pm (UTC -4)
this is where i dorkify myself, but there is only one JF and that’s John Frusciante.
Maybe they could cut Tim Redding’s sorry ass. A guy can dream, right?
7/10/2009-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
Horrible, horrible move.
Francoeur is no good.
Wow, church had more value than that.
7/10/2009-6:26pm at 6:26 pm (UTC -4)
I wouldn’t call it horrible. Trading a 30 year old who has career highs of 15/70 for a 25 year old with 29/105, I just can’t call horrible.
Have you seen what Francoeur has done last year plus though? I mean there’s a reason the Braves were desperate to get rid of him. But yeah, I probably over reacted. I would just rather have an arm for Church.
7/10/2009-6:32pm at 6:32 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah it’s hard to have missed his precipitous dropoff, no doubt. But he’s still just 25, upside still exists at least in theory, that can’t be said about Church IMO.
If anyone needed any proof that Omar is as stupid as I thought he was, well look.
7/10/2009-6:27pm at 6:27 pm (UTC -4)
I like this move. Church is what he is, a solid complimentary player on a good team (which the Mets aren’t as currently constructed). He’ll never be an All-Star and is five years older than Francoeur. Yes, Francoeur has been pretty bad for a good part of a year and a half, but he’s got big-time power potential, an element this team sorely lacks right now. The problem is, the Mets don’t have a hitting coach in HoJo that I have much faith in. A good hitting coach might be able to tap into that potential and turn Jeff back into a 30-homer 100 RBI guy. The trade’s worth the risk. Church was expendable in my book, although I never thought he was treated fairly by Jerryatric Manuel.
7/10/2009-6:30pm at 6:30 pm (UTC -4)
Agree with your whole comment.
i agree…i can only hope that bobby cox will utilize church in a better way
7/10/2009-6:43pm at 6:43 pm (UTC -4)
When Omar traded for Church it was proclaimed an outstanding move. Mets fans claimed that Church was an outstanding talent that was misused and mistreated in Washington. Now he is traded in essentially a lateral move for Frenchy, a player that didnâ€™t thrive in a better organization and has been recently ridiculed by Mets fans. If it is organization related then Church should now thrive. I wish him luck.
I dont understand this move…its almost a wash..fancouer cant hit and church cant hit consistantly. Not only that its not like the mets have a real hitting coach to fix francouer….i have no idea whats behind this move but francouer does have a hellova arm…
7/10/2009-6:31pm at 6:31 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps this is a Rick Ankiel move in reverse.
I concur. This is similar in intent to the Castro trade with Chicago.
7/10/2009-6:45pm at 6:45 pm (UTC -4)
I meant that I agree with metsfan4decades. This is mostly Jerryâ€™s doing.
I completely agree with this trade. Lots of upside, at the least its a wash
7/10/2009-6:35pm at 6:35 pm (UTC -4)
Omar on SNY:
‘We were able to get a right handed hitter, gold glove arm. As you know we’ve been left hitting dominant.’ He goes on to say: ‘I think he’s 25′. You think?
All the analysts love the trade. I guess it’s just the majority of the fans who don’t. If JF can ever get his swing back, it will be good. Otherwise, he won’t be around long. I mean, there has to be some reason the Braves got rid of a 25 year old with supposed potential to take Church in return.
Church’s interview on SNY being shown now. Said he just got off the phone with their GM. Said they like his play, like what he could bring to their team.
Good luck to you, Ryan. Hopefully, the Braves will treat you with more respect than the Mets did….
I understan church wasnt going to be re-signed, but francoeur is barely a major leaguer right now.
7/10/2009-6:48pm at 6:48 pm (UTC -4)
Then he should fit right in.
7/10/2009-6:36pm at 6:36 pm (UTC -4)
Kudos to Church, he just handled his sayonara press conference with dignity.
7/10/2009-6:38pm at 6:38 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, he did.
I also get the opinion from Ryan that he wasn’t totally surprised by this and probably looking forward to a change of scenery.
7/10/2009-6:41pm at 6:41 pm (UTC -4)
True. I’ll be rooting for him when he’s not playing the Mets. I read and heard multiple reports from various sources, some of which I respect more than others, that Church was a loner in the clubhouse. If there is any truth to that, I hope he fits in better in the ATL.
This is the one thing that justifies the trade, maybe Church requested one behind the scenes or maybe management noticed this.
The teams got together and traded the one guy on their team that they had no faith in. On the positive side Francour has way more upside then Church at this point and change of scenery can always help. Also the one thing I kept hearing about Francour is his work ethic and putting extra time in to get back on track. There is no reason to not like this trade. Church was never going to have an at bat against a lefty again so hopefully this brings a little stability to the lineup. Worth a shot at this point.
Well Church is now a half game closer to 1st place…
7/10/2009-6:40pm at 6:40 pm (UTC -4)
Frenchy has trouble OBP’ing over .300, who is going to fix his patience. I understand Church didnt have a future with this team past this year, but I guess this signals the management giving up this year. Omir Santos V.2.0 at the plate.
Both guys splits:
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.250 5 35 .282 .352
Vs Lefties .303
Vs. Righties .228
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.280 2 22 .332 .375
Vs Lefties .167
Vs. Righties .310
I think this is a decent improvement plus upside. Also helps team moral to show that the office is willing to do something.
7/10/2009-7:01pm at 7:01 pm (UTC -4)
Church has only batted 48 times against left-handers so his numbers are based on a small sample size. Last year he hit .264 against left-handers. But assuming you are correct this team faces more right-handers than left-handers so Frenchy will play (and possibly continue to suck) against right-handed pitchers. So how does that help the club in 2009 or have the Mets thrown the towel in?
7/10/2009-7:03pm at 7:03 pm (UTC -4)
for even smaller samples, Francoeur vs. next 2 starters:
Cueto 1 for 2 double, walk
Harang 3 for 14 1 HR, 3 RBI
7/10/2009-7:08pm at 7:08 pm (UTC -4)
I was going to say touchÃ© but I guess Frenchy will be traded again on Sunday.
Not sure I like this. This does nothing to improve our team IMO. I think we were just had by a team in our own division. Francoeur’s numbers have been dropping every year he has been in the league.
Meh – change of scenery move for both clubs. Now, I have to cheer for this Frenchy tool? Ew.
7/10/2009-7:11pm at 7:11 pm (UTC -4)
other than the 5 HRs, Francour has numbers that would embarass Slappy McLimpington.
When my son told me this, I told him he better be lying. Or the Mets better be getting something back with him. But no, Omar had to send money too?
After thinking about ths some more, I guess it is a “whatever” move. But what it really means to me? THey really are not going to try to make a move this year, everything they do is for the future. I think. Or, Omar is really just an idiot.
I guess if Frnechy rediscovers (or learns?) something, it has upside. CHurch is pretty much what he has showed, so not really upside.
at least Frenchy can play D.
And hopefully this is the first of a series of moves.
That, and if they somehow bring his career back to life, I guess it does fill one of the holes for next year (but, can he, and will they let him, be an everyday guy or just a platooner?)
So, a lateral move. Doesn’t improve the club at all right now.
7/10/2009-7:25pm at 7:25 pm (UTC -4)
Everyone is killing Omar for doing nothing and he decides to get creative by sending our trash away and he gets killed. Damned if you do damned if you don’t.
And why does this mean he is giving up and not doing anything this year, I read it from a bunch of comments above. All Church was a big concussed headache.
7/10/2009-7:38pm at 7:38 pm (UTC -4)
Trash is tatis ,hernandez , perez ,a reyes church was definatly not trash, A good outfielder with a 280 ba is not trash these daysMaybe he had no power either but francour will be hated in a short time.
7/10/2009-7:29pm at 7:29 pm (UTC -4)
This is a move to that does nothing for the mets this guy could do no wrong in atl. I saw him strike out in a game 3 times last year while in atl and the fans still cheered him. In NY he will just wilt when the boos come raining down on him
7/10/2009-8:16pm at 8:16 pm (UTC -4)
That’s a fair point and you may very well be right.
But what is also possible is he was too comfortable playing where he grew up and maybe he needs to get away, or maybe he’s one of those players that responds well to negative stimuli, in which case playing in the City where home fans booed Johan Santana will be just what he needs.
7/10/2009-9:07pm at 9:07 pm (UTC -4)
Mets and Braves swap RFs
July 10, 2009 6:45 PM
(and first seen on Twitter!) …
The Mets just announced minutes ago that they have traded Ryan Church to the Braves for Jeff Francoeur.
Like Church in New York, Francoeur was no longer in favor in Atlanta, hitting .250 with five home runs and 35 RBI in 82 games.
Minaya said Francoeur, 25, makes sense as another righthanded bat and, as a former Gold Glove winner, to help with the outfield defense in right.
Wow. Church must really have worn out his welcome with the Mets. Since coming off the DL in early June, Church’s line is .290/.336/.402 … far from good for a corner outfielder, but decent enough compared to most of the Mets’ other outfielders … and of course a far sight prettier than Francoeur’s .250/.282/.352 line for the season.
Defense? According to UZR, there’s little difference between them and Church might actually be better.
Handedness? With Fernando Tatis and Gary Sheffield, the Mets already had two righty-hitting corner outfielders; now they’ve got three.
So, let’s review: The Braves got a decent hitter and fielder who bats left-handed, and thus can platoon (or semi-platoon) with Matt Diaz in right field. The Mets got … what, exactly? If you figure it out, drop a line to Jerry Manuel. He’s going to need all the help he can get with this one.
Update: Awesome quote from Omar Minaya: “One thing we like about Francoeur is the amount of games that he plays.”
7/10/2009-9:23pm at 9:23 pm (UTC -4)
This Neyer guy seems to love the Mets, huh? What a douche.
7/10/2009-10:12pm at 10:12 pm (UTC -4)
Most of the ESPN guys don’t try to hide their contempt for the Mets…they must get a bonus if they write an article mocking them.
7/10/2009-9:14pm at 9:14 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, this was pretty shocking. Like others, I don’t think they gave Church a chance. I hope he tears it up in Atlanta.
At least Jeffie is a gold glover, young and has had some power. I hope they play him everyday and stop this silly platoon crap.
I guess this is better than an Alex Rios trade, right?
7/10/2009-9:29pm at 9:29 pm (UTC -4)
I am a fan of the theory that Jerry and Omar are at odds on many things. Totally my own supposition, but what if Omar is tired of Jerry’s tinkering with lineups and playing time and so is giving Jerry someone who “plays every day.”
7/10/2009-9:30pm at 9:30 pm (UTC -4)
Vcarver over at Metsblog put this up:
â€œFrenchy got his career off to a blistering start in late 2005, and followed that up with a 100+ RBI season in 2006. However, Frenchyâ€™s very liberal approach at the plate has actually made him a below-average player (in terms of WPA/LI) for the last three years running.â€
â€œSo, Francoeur is swinging at fewer strikes while still fishing outside of the zone far too regularly. If anything, it appears as though his plate discipline is actually getting worse. Coupled with a puzzling loss of power (his ISO has dropped at least 30 points each year), it becomes very difficult to recommend Frenchy as anything more than a late-round flyer. Heâ€™ll still be just 25 next season, but until he can prove that he has some semblance of pitch recognition, itâ€™s best to let someone else become frustrated while waiting for Francoeur to break out.â€
The above are excerpts from a November 2008 article at fangaphs. Apparently, the Braves found that â€œsomeoneâ€ to take Francoeur off their hands.
Current figures at frangraphs show Churchâ€™s current dollar value to be 1.7 million dollars, while Fancoeur is a (negative) -2.6 million. Church is also currently leading Francoeur in defensive UZR/150 by about 9 runs. So it would appear the defense has just gotten worse. I wonder if the Mets front office ever looks at stats.
7/10/2009-9:37pm at 9:37 pm (UTC -4)
I’m pretty confident they checked out the “games played” stats and the “date of birth” stats.
7/11/2009-5:47pm at 5:47 pm (UTC -4)
lol Iâ€™m sure the Mets front office has first dibs on baseball cards and thatâ€™s probably the extent of their baseball facts research.
7/10/2009-9:39pm at 9:39 pm (UTC -4)
no, they just listen to guys on the bagel line.
7/10/2009-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
Ryan Church’s Met career, when added together, is one whole season:
157 games, 551 ABs, 80 R, 153 H, 30 2B, 1 3B, 14 HR, 71 RBI, .278 BA
I don’t know what people were expecting to pull in for that. I don’t know what people were expecting from him if he stayed. But that’s him. .278/14/71
7/10/2009-9:52pm at 9:52 pm (UTC -4)
For an interesting take on the trade and the season I quote Eric Simon’s blog Amazin! Avenue:
“The Mets have solved all of their problems by trading Ryan Church to the Braves for Jeff Francoeur. Mets fans rejoice: the World Series is officially ours!
[Added by Sam]:
Growing up in Tennessee, most of my friends were Braves fans. I endured some painful moments throughout the 90s. Once Minaya came aboard, however, things improved. The Mets were better than the Braves, a result of the Mets improving and the Braves getting noticeably worse.
I used to talk up Lastings Milledge to them. He’s got range. He can hit for power. Once Lastings comes up, you guys won’t stand a chance. It was partly just me jokingly hyping the legend of an already hilarious persona. Yet, I believed. Milledge had the skills and the upside that few players his age did. When they traded Lastings to the Nationals for Ryan Church and Brian Schneider my friend’s laughed. The player I had constantly been hyping was traded for an outfielder the Nats were benching. It was embarrassing. I told my friends at least he wasn’t Jeff Francoeur. They got off my back.
Yet here we are again. After the Mets traded Milledge for Church they said it was upside for defense and reliability. Now, after trading Church for Francoeur they say it’s reliability for upside. This explanation is just as specious as the first one. Omar Minaya just traded our third best hitter for a Sports Illustrated cover from 2005.
…love the dealâ€¦
â€¦the Mets needed to shake up the rosterâ€¦ the potential francoeur has is much greater than that of church, plus the Mets lose nothing on the defensive sideâ€¦ -Metsblog
What upside? His mythical, BABIP-inflated, flukey rookie year? The guy has plate discipline that makes Omir Santos look like Barry Bonds. People talk about Francoeur’s “‘improvements” this year, which have tangibly resulted in a better 82% contact rate. Unfortunately, that means very little when you walk at a 3.8% rate. Less than 4% of his plate appearances result in a walk. For a team that was already having trouble getting baserunners, the Mets should expect to have ZERO offense going forward.
According to fangraphs, Francoeur was a 3.6 WAR player in 2007, but that was almost entirely the product of UZR rating his arm as +16 runs. Sure he has a great arm, but that number looks like a huge aberration. Not to mention, since 2007 his OPS has dropped from .782 to .653, this year sitting at a hefty .634.
Just over the course of this season, Francoeur’s ZiPS rest-of-season projeciton is .304 wOBA, which seems pretty generous the way he’s been hitting. By contrast, Church is projected at .344, an actually respectable number. Over a projected 280 PA for the rest of the year, that’s eleven runs difference in offense. Factor in that nearly every defensive metric likes Church better in rightfield than Francoeur and you have a loss of 1.5 wins over the course of the season. Using the conservative estimate that 1 WAR is equivalent to 4 million dollars, that’s 6 million lost just this season. Factor in that Francoeur is actually making $575,000 more than Church this season, Minaya has essentially flushed 7 Million dollars and any hope of a playoff run down the toilet. He’s seemingly done the impossible: make this bunch of scrubs a few wins worse.
And that’s just the damage for this season! Minaya will probably plan on Francoeur being the rightfielder for the coming years, just to prove he was right about his “upside”. Has anyone been paying attention? The real reason the Mets don’t make the playoffs despite having four of the best players in the National League: terrible complementary players in important positions. Francoeur is the offensive black-hole of rightfielders. Minaya is seemingly perfecting his own model for making non-contender teams. I seriously think he looked at the back of his baseball cards, saw Francoeur’s averages and RBIs from past season and made the trade. Can anyone point out OBP on the scoreboard to Mr. Minaya?
I hope I’m wrong, but there’s no Ryan Church coming from the other end of this deal. Minaya has seemingly conceded this season, and that’s what makes this deal hurt most of all.”
7/10/2009-10:01pm at 10:01 pm (UTC -4)
Listening to Jerry’s comments on this trade on the post game show. Said ‘he’s a good defensive player – not that I’m looking for defense right now.’
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Church a good defensive player too?
Said, he’s got some pop. Yeah, but not in a few years.
Now he’s praising Church. Said: ‘He became an everyday player for us. Thought he did very well here. He was hitting .280, right?’
Well, since when did Church play everyday? Did I miss something here?
And Bobby O. goes on to say the worst thing that could happen is Jeff comes in here feeling pressure, feeling he’s got to change things to help this ball club. I hope he has some thick skin b/c our fans are the same ones who booed Johan on the mound.
This trade has nothing to do with making this team better this year. Taking a flyer, although a long shot, at a kid who might turn things around for himself while getting rid of Church who we all know was not gonna be resigned.
7/10/2009-10:17pm at 10:17 pm (UTC -4)
lol…but check this out
jerry didnt like ramon castro(miami game in april)…castro is gone
jerry didnt like church…church is gone…..
noticing a trend….
7/10/2009-10:14pm at 10:14 pm (UTC -4)
Ted Berg’s column on this subject is great (see Flusing Fussing under Spyder). I usually like what Ted has to say and this time is no different. Well thought out, backed up with stats, realistic breakdown of this trade. Those most distressing thing? He said defensively, according to UZR and Bill Jame’s plus/minus, he’s been a below average RF due to his lack of range.
He starts out:
About a month ago, when things really started to crumble for the Mets, I wrote this:
If the Mets trade for Jeff Francoeur, I’m out. I’ll find someone else to write this column.
Double Yikes! Tells you what Ted thinks about JF….
7/10/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
Okay, I’m probably mixing loves (Mets and music), but I can only think of one person when I read JF and that’s John Frusciante.
I like the trade because I don’t like this team. This is one move away from it. I’m sure Omar had enough of hearing about the concussions, flights with post concussion syndrome, etc.
But, here’s the thing, Frenchy has produced on the big league level. He is 25 and he’s got power and can play defense. I don’t know about his range factor, but I do know that his arm is a cannon and it completely changes the way third base coaches approach a medium fly ball with a man on third or a grounder through the hole with a guy on second.
The season is on the brink, Church wasn’t going to do anything to help. Maybe Frenchy’s new scenery will bring back the power.
His OBP is god awful, he never walks, and he strikes out a ton (although his K count is half that of Wright’s right now). We shall see, but at least there is something different.
Keep going Omar.
7/10/2009-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
I know Frenchy is not “the answer” and most evidence points to the fact that he is not “an answer” but given that we traded away .278/14/71, I don’t think we traded away “the” or “an” answer either.
7/10/2009-11:42pm at 11:42 pm (UTC -4)
well, i like the trade and i don’t think there are any answers to this team’s problems right now anyway.
7/10/2009-11:55pm at 11:55 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, I did a poor job of making it clear but my comment was in support of yours above it, specifically the portion where you stated “Church wasnâ€™t going to do anything to help.”
7/11/2009-12:05am at 12:05 am (UTC -4)
This is a good move guys!
7/11/2009-12:10am at 12:10 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I know I liked Church more than you did, but I agree that this is a good move. A gamble, yes, but one worth taking considering where the team stands.
7/11/2009-12:14am at 12:14 am (UTC -4)
Heb,read my post in the post game thread and let me know what you think.
7/10/2009-11:20pm at 11:20 pm (UTC -4)
I like this move. More needs to be done but Francoeur is 5 years younger and actually has had productive years. Church is 30 and is simply an injury prone borderline everyday player who is very streaky and inconsistent. When healthy.
7/11/2009-2:26am at 2:26 am (UTC -4)
At first I was ambivalent about the trade. I remembered that old movie Stalag 17 where the German Commandant announced that there will be a change today. The POWs cheered until the Commandant announced you will change underwear with you and you with you, etc. That is what I thought about this trade. Frenchy produced until the pitchers figured him out and he has not been able to adjust to it. Do you really think HoJo will help him? Hopefully he will straighten him out. But then I started to read how the Braves had given up on Frenchy and how they benched him for 3 games this week. More important I started to read the stats and they donâ€™t lie. I already posted some of the more important stats. My congratulations to the Braves that they managed to unload Frenchy on the Mets and receive lower priced talent that will help them in a platoon situation in return. PT Barnum was right.
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