“No, even my players aren’t players.” Casey Stengel
Here’s what you missed on Thursday, July 9, 2009:
- This Day In Mets Infamy 7-09-09 by rustyjr
- Morning Open Thread by CaseStreet
- All-Star Game Final Vote – Drown Shane! by prismo
- Draft And Follow: 7-9-09 by GravediggerHebner
- Man Up Awards For Wednesday by dirtysanchez
- Gameday Weather 7-9-09 by prismo
- The Mets Owe the Core a Trade by trs86
- An In-Depth Look At… Randy Wolf. by QnsNative718
- Injury News: F-Mart to DL by mrose
- Game Thread: Mets (40-43) vs Dodgers (53-31) by dirtysanchez
- Post Game: Back To Reality by GravediggerHebner
You got something to say? Say it on The Real Dirty Mets Blog!
142 comments
saltygary
7/10/2009-7:05am at 7:05 am (UTC -4)
Couldn’t have said it better myself Mr. Stengel.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-8:11am at 8:11 am (UTC -4)
So if you’re not disgusted by just watching this team play everyday, a feat in itself, try this on for size:
Our 3-5 pitchers (Nieve, Livan, Ollie/Redding) are struggling to say the least, yet we will not look to see if Pedro can slide in at a #3/#4. Instead, we sit back and watch the Phillies lead the charge for him. Unreal. It’s like 3 out of every 5 days we show up to the ballpark not even giving ourselves the best chance at winning.
Lastly, I have to read about the Yankees involved in Roy Halladay trade talks? Is the NY Post serious? First off, for teh Blue Jays to even show up to the table for discussions with a division rival, they would have to be fitting Cano,Joba, and Hughes for Jays jerseys. Then at the discussions, the Jays will pick from the Yankee crop of prospects. The Yanks will also have to take Rios or Wells. The Mets need pitching to win games right now. It was obvious from the start.
saltygary
7/10/2009-8:45am at 8:45 am (UTC -4)
Actually the Mets need everything to win games right now. Last night was pitching the other night was offense, they need it all. I think the last thing they need is Pedro. Loved Pedro and he brought legitimacy back to the team, but we need someone that can go more than 5 innings. Their bullpen issues have been based on guys like Glavine and Pedro acting their age, along with poor management of them by the last 2 managers.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
I understand where you’re coming from, but when you’re down 4-0 before you even pick up a bat…when your pitching struggles just to get to a 2-2 count on every batter. I just think it’s obvious at this point that Pedro can do a better job than 3/5 of our rotation. Whether he keeps us in the game for 5 or 6 innings. I’d rather trot him out there every 5th day than Livan, Ollie, Nieve (give him a few starts to show his true colors), or Redding.
What makes it even more frustrating is that Marquis and Wolf could have been had this offseason. Look what both of them are doing. Look at what Hudson is doing. Shoot me now.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see how it’s at all obvious that Pedro would be an improvement over 3/5 of the rotation when all he’s done for the last 3 years is suck, pitch 2 innings against the Netherlands Olympic team, and sit under a mango tree complaining about no one offering him $5 million.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-8:24am at 8:24 am (UTC -4)
I think rustyjr should change it from This Day in Mets Infamy to Yesterday in Mets Infamy.
Rusty, if you’re listening, you’ll have a new infamous piece everyday.
prismo
7/10/2009-8:25am at 8:25 am (UTC -4)
;(
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
Let’s just sit on our hands and watch the Phillies sign Pedro and trade for Halladay. When, in reality a pitcher like Halladay can save our season.
If Omar misses the boat on Halladay, he better not shed prospects to get a guy like Holliday or whoever this year’s Joe Blanton is going to be. Otherwise, I’ll be angry. I’m sure Omar is shaking in his boots at that thought.
sabermetrician
7/10/2009-8:54am at 8:54 am (UTC -4)
I agree with your sentiment here, but now that Fernando Martinez (i.e. Alex Escobar) is down again we can’t trade for Halladay. We just don’t have enough.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
Let’s just sit on our hands and watch the Phillies sign Pedro and trade for Halladay. When, in reality a pitcher like Halladay can save our season.
If Omar misses the boat on Halladay, he better not shed prospects to get a guy like Holliday or whoever this year’s Joe Blanton is going to be. Otherwise, I’ll be angry. I’m sure Omar is shaking in his boots at that thought.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-8:38am at 8:38 am (UTC -4)
See? I was so mad, I said it twice!
charlie_s
7/10/2009-8:52am at 8:52 am (UTC -4)
Here’s some more perspective…
Over the last 570 games (dating back to the start of the 2006 season), the Mets have been this far out of first place (5.5 games or worse) for only 16 games.
sabermetrician
7/10/2009-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
Okay, that’s changing soon.
charlie_s
7/10/2009-8:59am at 8:59 am (UTC -4)
Yup, and while the finishes to the last three years have been heartbreaking, the Mets haven’t been this bad since 2005. The team is slipping into irrelevance.
sabermetrician
7/10/2009-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, they are. The sad thing is that even when we’re healthy we have so many holes that it’s going to be tough to compete (speaking of next year of course). Hopefully Omar can work some magic to get us back into contention next year.
sabermetrician
7/10/2009-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
You know what bugs me most guys? We were so good. In ’06 we were the best team in baseball. If we had gotten Santana a year earlier I’m convinced we would have won in ’07. Small windows of opportunity shut fast.
udontmesswthejohan
7/10/2009-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
People need to relax and realize that doing something just for the sake of doing something is not the answer. This team is not going anywhere this year…get that through your heads. Therefore, there is no one out there who is the answer. There are just too many holes. Yes, Halladay would be great, but the Mets don’t have enough to get him, and even if they did, who is to say that Halladay approves a trade to the Mets. He wants to win NOW, that is not gonna happen on this team this year.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
I really don’t see Halladay going anywhere. I’m losing more and more hope for this team this season.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Halladay will be a Phil by the trade deadline. They will win the division for as long as he is signed. It’s that simple. If it means trading away the farm to give us a shot at winnign the division again in the next 5 yrs, we need to do it.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
I’m actually starting to get the feeling Halladay will be a Cardinal.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Either way it’s no good. Halladay and Carpenter will be a very tough 1-2 punch.
I’m a Rockies fan for the remainder of the season. They are about the only team I can stomach.
Hate Larussa and his glasses and pitcher batting 8th act. Hate the Dodgers and their annoying fans. Hate the Phils.
udontmesswthejohan
7/10/2009-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
Oh yeah to all those people out there complaining about the “chemistry” of this team over the last 3 years, Gary Cohen made a point last night about how this current group has a “great clubhouse” and “great chemistry”…he also went on to say they just don’t have any talent. Think about that the next time all the “grit” and “heart” arguments start up and the calls for the David Eckstein’s of the world. Pssssssssssssss.
dirtysanchez
7/10/2009-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
unfortunatly those comments will always be made until they win…..heart/grit and all that bs is linked to winning imo.
saltygary
7/10/2009-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
You right it is linked and those issues were pretty apparent with this team. Because of the 2 collapses you could just see the despair in their body language, and winning/losing has a effect with that.
For me At home when things are going good I have a hop to my step. Right now since I have a 2 week old and a 3 year old I’m dragging my ass. It’s human nature type stuff.
I was annoyed at the beginning of the season with this team because it looked like they were carrying the last two years of baggage on the field, and it’s understandable. They was no file until Delgado went down and then that since of urgency started to kick in, too bad the rest of the team fell like dominoes.
dirtysanchez
7/10/2009-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
well…we knew we were playing underarmed and they would only survive for so long w/o some power. I honestly believe manuel is making his job harder with all of these guys playing out of position….this team is really messed up right now and i could only hope that the 3/4 days with the ASB that they really get it together
udontmesswthejohan
7/10/2009-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
What would happen if we just didn’t show up after the all star break, be like “Nah, we’re good, see you in the srping suckers”.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
I wonder what kind of excuse Jerry and Omar has now that ASB is around the corner.
“If we play .500 baseball until August, we’ll be okay”
“If we play .500 baseball until Mid-August, we’ll be okay”
“If we play .500 baseball until September, we’ll be okay”
F@#* .500 baseball!
dirtysanchez
7/10/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
said alex cora ;p
saltygary
7/10/2009-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
I’ve been cutting Manuel a lot of slack but not playing Murph last night was the final straw. He’s screwing that kid up mentally. This is the time to let the kids play in the same position on the field and in the lineup. Does he feel that the fans will think he’s not trying hard enough by not doing a lineup shuffle every day?
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
He just loves Tatis too much to play Murphy AND Jerry loves playing the Lefty Righty match up crap.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
I thought changes were going to be made if we slipped under .500. Were “changes” meant to be:
-Ollie Perez off the DL? or;
-A Reyes back to mop up duty.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
I found this off BaseballAmerica.com
Here are Top 25 mid season prospects in MLB.
1. Jason Heyward, of, Braves
2. Mike Stanton, of, Marlins
3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
4. Justin Smoak, 1b, Rangers
5. Madison Bumgarner, lhp, Giants
6. Buster Posey, c, Giants
7. Carlos Santana, c, Indians
8. Chris Tillman, rhp, Orioles
9. Brian Matusz, lhp, Orioles
10. Logan Morrison, 1b, Marlins
11. Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves
12. Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
13. Neftali Feliz, rhp, Rangers
14. Alcides Escobar, ss, Brewers
15. Yonder Alonso, 1b, Reds
16. Wade Davis, rhp, Rays
17. Dominic Brown, of, Phillies
18. Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
19. Jason Castro, c, Astros
20. Tim Beckham, ss, Rays
21. Brett Wallace, 3b, Cardinals
22. Matt LaPorta, 1b/of, Indians
23. Michael Taylor, of, Phillies
24. Kyle Drabek, rhp, Phillies
25. Michael Saunders, of, Mariners
Phillies have 3 players in the list, Braves 2, Marlins 2.
Brad Holt is our best prospect at #35. Mejia #42.
I’m not sure whether FMart is no longer considered as a prospect, but What the hell is wrong with Mets talent development??? Outside of Wright and Reyes, who’s the big name guy that the Mets have developed? IMO Pelf has yet to prove that he’s legit. FMart hasn’t shown anything yet. Niese doesn’t look like he’ll be a star.
Just to give you an example, here’s the list Phillies have developed through their farm system: Hamels, Utley, Howard, Rollins, Vicky (Rule 5), and they have 3 players in top 25.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
If our best option to replace FMart is Argenis Reyes, there’s a problem. You mean to tell me that there’s no one better than Argenis Reyes that is Major League ready?? C’mon
udontmesswthejohan
7/10/2009-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Well for one thing it’s hard to replenish the farm when you go out and sign a big free agent every year. Also, you know as well as I that maybe a handful of the guys on this list will ever be productive major leaguers, so I don’t get too carried away with these things. It’s a crapshoot. That said, yes we need to do a better job of producing guys who may not be stars, but can help the big league team in times of injury…kind of like, I don’t know…now.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Yes, many of these prospects will turn out to be busts. But the fact is some will turn out as a star. Outside of Wright and Reyes, who have the Mets farm system produced recently?
Sure you can blame the FA signings and all, but look at Boston. How are they able to develop so many good players with so many FA signings? Phillies sign some FAs too, but they still manage to pop out good players.
udontmesswthejohan
7/10/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Right, but you can’t look at thsi in a vaccum. yeah the Phillies developed Utley, Howard, Rollins, and Hamels, but prior to them, it’s not like they were popping out stars every other year.
I mean it’s not an easy thing to do. look at the Rays, before they finally got it right with this current crop of young guys, they blew a lot of overall first picks as well.
stickguy
7/10/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
the smart thing =s the red sox do are trade aging guys for prospects before they become total dogs (like Nomar), and offer Arb to guys they dont really want back, so they get draft picks that way.
That, and they seem to have scouts that really know how to find pitching!
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Someone mistakenly said this yesterday too. Who are these big Red Sox free agent signings? They just don’t sign Type A free agents unless absolutely necessary, thus retaining their picks. They sign Type B and C guys, without losing picks.
stickguy
7/10/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
plus, when you develop lots of viable prospects, you can make trades to fill your holes.
that, and I think on many days they are starting 5 guys on the field that were all home grown (ellisbury, youk, Veritek (not sure on him), green, pedroia).
Drew FA, Bay trade,
and why the heck am I rambling on about the sox?
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
Varitek they got from Seattle along with Derek Lowe for Heathcliff Slocumb. Green is a journeyman who spent 7 years in the Braves minor league system. But still the Sox have Papelbon, Delcarmen, Lester off the top of my head to go along with the other home growns, with Buccholz tearing up AAA ready to step in.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
There’s not a single free agent in Boston’s regular lineup or rotation other than JD Drew, Brad Penny and Saito (the latter two were reclamation projects while Matsuzaka is a different story, Ortiz was a scrap heap pickup as was Wakefield).
Lowell was acquired as a salary dump throw-in to the trade for Beckett. Even the players they don’t want turn to gold.
Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Lester, Masterson, Papelbon, Delcarmer and Bard were all drafted. That’s hard to friggin believe.
Varitek and Bay were both trade acquisitions.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Smoltz. But yes I hope your comment was in support because that’s what I was saying, they don’t mess up their system by importing Type A free agents.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
manny
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
Manny was signed by Dan Duquette 9 years ago.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
According to Keith Law, Phillies are top heavy but don’t necessarily have a better farm than the Mets who have lots of good younger guys.
F-Mart isn’t on the list because he’s on the Mets as is Tommy Hanson for the Braves.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Hanson has shown something. Where’s FMart now?
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Probably at the Hospital for Special Surgery?
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
what’s ur point? I was explaining why F-Mart isn’t on the list!
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
my point is FMart may not be a bust.
I’m just very frustrated…. that’s all…
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
who isn’t?
saltygary
7/10/2009-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
On that list there is really only 3 teams that have been competitive for the last handful of years, the phils cards and yanks. All the rest haven’t so they get higher draft picks. The Mets have done a good job keeping the talent that has panned out except for the case of Kazmir. There are 30 teams in the league so not all of them can be in the top 25.
Is the farm weak right now, sure. But thats what happens when you keep a high payroll and send the kids out for guys like Santana. The Mets can’t have it both ways.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
The Mets haven’t developed many players even including the ones that traded away. Obviously Kazmir comes to mind but that was a long time ago already.
The jury is still out on Milledge and Carlos Gomez, but the early returns suggest these guys won’t be stars or impact players at all (I still think both have good chances of being solid regulars, Gomez especially for his defense).
Heath Bell and Matt Lindstrom are not stars but are definitely useful players. Joe Smith will always have a job.
Mike Carp might get a chance to play somewhat in Seattle so we’ll see about him.
Are we missing anyone? I’m not going to go back as far as Jason Bay or AJ Burnett.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Bannister.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Well, no loss there but another strike against the developmental staff.
stickguy
7/10/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
26-50 aren’t inorder on that list. Just alphabetical.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
I know it’s not likely, but I still think the season is salvageable.
I really hope Omar can trade for Halladay, Rios and Nick Johnson. I know that’s alot to ask for, but rumors were Johnson wouldn’t cost much. Plus takig on Rios’ salary would sweeten the pot for the Jays.
Even if it doesn’t help for this year (right now, my little league team could help), all we’d need to fix is C for 2010.
billydeewilliams
7/10/2009-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
I think this season is salvageable too. I just can’t bear to watch it.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Same here… My wife asks me why watch them if I’m going to be so frustrated by them. She’s right to some degree.
But I will still root for them.
metsfan4decades
7/10/2009-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
Well said.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
of course you have to watch. There isnt any baseball in the winter, so get it while you can.
billydeewilliams
7/10/2009-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. But in a game like last night’s, when they go down 4 runs in the first 15 minutes of watching, and fully knowing this offense’s less than amazing talent, it makes it a lot easier for me to skip to other channels…or go see ice age 3 because my gf loves that nonsense.
dirtysanchez
7/10/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
i agree…just got to chalk it up to a bad 1st half…
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
Case:
That’s about $30m in salary for this year and next (assuming you’d want to resign Johnson), not to mention Rios is signed for about $12.5m through 2015 in one of baseball’s worst contract.
Not to mention the Mets probably don’t have nearly enough to get Halladay, let alone to get the other two guys too.
But there’s no way they are heading that type of payroll to a team that is 6 games out of a playoff spot.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
well, taking on the bad contract could compensate for not having enough prospects (if that’s true). From what’s been reported, it won’t take much to get Johnson.
The only thing I do agree w/ you is adding approx. $15 M in payroll for the rest of the year, but there’d be room w/ money coming off of next yr’s contracts.
Otherwise, how else do you improve the team? You can’t just say screw the season, then expect to fill all the holes in the offseason through high-priced FAs.
Kingman 26
7/10/2009-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
New manager may equal new attitude…it often does, at least for a while, in every sport….
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
Next year they’d be losing Delgado’s $12m (which would be immediately replaced by Rios’s albatross of a contract — who provides less production than Delgado, when healthy).
They’ll also likely let Putz walk, which is another $5m in savings from this year’s payroll (his contract goes to something like $9m if they take his option). That would be immediately replaced by Johnson’s approximate re-signing value.
Then, Halladay’s contract plus extension is the major addition.
They’d still need a catcher. And they’ll have to factor in the raises to Wright and Reyes in their contracts and I think Maine and Church are both arb eligible.
Would they be willing to add approximately $20m more to next year’s payroll (if not more)?
That’s a good question, especially coming off an unexpected season with poor ticket sales.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
doubt Nick gets $9M. I think it’ll be less than or close to the $5.5 he gets now.
You’d have to hope can have a resurgence. Either way, he plays a good OF (i think) and steals bases. Rios-Beltran-Church sounds nice to me. Otherwise ur looking at F-Mart in LF, but no Holliday.
If they do bring in a SPer, Maine could get dealt if Niese is doing well enough. If not, Maine wouldn’t be gettting much of a raise from his $2.6M this year.
Still though, like Kingman said, “We need change!”, Not more of the same!
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
I have Johnson plugged in at $5m, Putz approximate value for this year.
And I agree they need change. I just don’t foresee this type of increased financial commitment. And I don’t really think Rios is worth it because it would sacrifice making significant improvements to the bullpen and behind the plate.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
gotcha
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
Let’s assume that the team is willing to foot the bill for Case’s proposal and are able to pull the trades off as suggested. I’ll also assume that none of the current roster players are part of those trades, though I suspect Pelfrey (for Halladay) and Murphy (for Johnson) would be vulnerable:
Reyes SS
Johnson 1B
Wright 3B
Beltran CF
Rios LF
Church RF
Bargain basement/Santos/Thole? C
Castillo 2B
Halladay SP
Santana SP
Pelfrey SP
Maine SP
Perez SP
K-Rod RP
Feliciano RP
Parnell RP
Stokes RP
Green RP
Bostick? RP
Cora IF
Murphy 1B/PH
Evans U
Tatis U
Reed OF
Even with that rotation, is there enough offense/bullpen?
Rios is the one that doesn’t fit. He’s not a big enough power hitter and takes up too much salary to justify himself.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
I actually like that lineup, when healthy. Though, I guess u could get more power from someone else’s bad contract.
Doubt that power OF/1B is filled in FA and Nats aren’t trading Dunn.
Kingman 26
7/10/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
It is salvageable, but we need some returned injured players real quick after the ASB, and we need either a Halladay or a bat….we can get back in it, as the Marlins, Braves, Giants, Cubs, Brewers, etc are a bunch of .500 teams at best.
We need change though, and we need it now.
Jerry is beyond a joke at this point, and I STILL say someone else gets more wins out of this group.
And as Saltygary said above, why the hell not play Murph every day with the depleted roster? It makes zero sense.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
someone posted yesterday that Jerry’s reason/excuse was that he wanted to give the righties a shot yesterday since the Mets face 3 RH pitchers this weekend.
Kingman 26
7/10/2009-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Gotcha…have not been here much this week…
However, as Tatis took Murph’s spot, I feel exactly the same. Tatis is an aging veteran bench player. Why not play Murph every day and see what he can do, until Delgado returns? He is an energetic young kid with very little time above AA. Why not just play him every day?
Sorry, but Jerry drives me insane, and is only cleatly making the very worst of an already horrible situation.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Not to mention in his limited at bats this season (32) v. lefties Murphy is hitting .290 (only a .303 OBP which I suspect would improve in a larger sample).
Tatis could have played somewhere else if he needed to get at bats. Sheff’s bat has been quiet and he could always use a game off. Jerry said that he didn’t want to play him at 2B because of concerns over defense — all of a sudden that’s a concern?
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
And why can’t Tatis play one of the three games against righties?
I just don’t get all the L/R nonsense.
metsfan4decades
7/10/2009-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
This whole discussion is b/c we have the most amount of $$ right now on the DL than any other team.
Take Wagner’s salary right out of the mix, off the top. That alone would have netted a nice player back. Then add Beltran, Reyes, Delgado, Maine, Ollie, Putz, Pagan (and whoever else I’m missing)…that leaves management with a huge problem so far as going out and getting anyone.
Let’s face it, no way, no how did anyone even remotely think what happened could happen. But it did.
We had a very competitive team, if most remained healthy. We had a nice bench. We had competent pitching. We could have weathered stints to the DL if it was only a couple and they were of the 15 day variety.
This is too much to compensate for. Several core players out for months at a time. I’m not using it as an excuse. It just is what it is.
I’ll be watching every game but I know it’s likely not going to get any better until the troops start coming back.
Considering what’s currently available on the market, what we would have to give up to get it (basically over paying), the amount of holes we have and the money tied up, I’m not thinking there will be any help coming in that area. Maybe we’ll get a ‘serviceable’ player or two, but without our core, I’m thinking it’s just not going to be enough…
metsgirl31
7/10/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
I agree….no one could have seen this coming or prepared for it. And I don’t see any major help coming either. Like you said it is what it is and really the only thing to hope for is that guys start coming back and not long after the ASB either.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
I love when people say, it’s Omar’s fault and the team has no depth. Those people are usually Yankees fans. It’s just really funny. You’re talking about a team that has anyone else’s #3 starter as their 5th starter. If the Mets spent $100MM more, they would be in a much better spot right now as well.
metsgirl31
7/10/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Exactly
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
When FMart comes back (if at all this year), he needs to play everyday until our regulars are back. We need to know or have some idea if he will be even close to ready to be our full time LF next year.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
he just needs to do it in AAA
metsfan4decades
7/10/2009-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
That and all this tinkering with the line up has gotten us nowhere. You would think Jerry would know that by now. For the most part, put your best defensive team out there and run with it. Defense alone this season probably cost us 5 games or better…
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Heyman is saying Mets don’w want to trade F-Mart, Holt, Mejia or Davis.
What do you guys think? Should any of these guys be untouchable?
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
I heard Davis is off to a good start at AA. Wonder if they plan on giving him a shot going into next year. He’s gotta be 23-24. Probably just about ready, if not a year off. Maybe they can get Nick Johnson on a 1-2 yr deal and give Ike another year.
Holt and Mejia, if they live up to their potential can be huge for us going forward as well. You need to have some inexpensive, but solid options in the rotation. That helps you build around them with high priced bats. Or the other way around.
dirtysanchez
7/10/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
thats just about all our trade pieces lol
wonder if flores is available…
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
guess that means Flores, Niese, Havens, Pena, Marte, Moviel, Gee, Kunz, etc. are available
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I’d prefer the Mets start building their future through the farm system rater than through free agency and salary dump trades.
However, none of these guys are without question marks and none should be considered untouchable for the right deal.
I wouldn’t deal those guys for a quick fix like Nick Johnson. But I’d certainly include any or all in a deal for Halladay.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Or Pujols, Josh Johnson, Lincecum, etc….
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
I would only want to trade one of Holt or Mejia.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
actually, F mart might be the one you do trade!
although at this point, I think they should hold them all, and not make any deals (other than non prospect/salary dump stuff) this month.
Let the wounded heal, and actaully evaluate the entire organization from a master plan, and then make trades and deem “untouchables”
Besides, another 1/2 year for a guy like Holt or Davis could be huge. They are looking real good now, and on the verge of really breaking out. They do that and hit AAA this year, they could be viable options (or much better trade chips) in the off season or ST
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
Wholly agree.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Just thought I’d throw this in for those who think this and next year are finished:
PROJECTED 2012
LINEUP
Catcher Francisco Pena
First Base Daniel Murphy
Second Base Reese Havens
Third Base David Wright
Shortstop Jose Reyes
Left Field Fernando Martinez
Center Field Carlos Beltran
Right Field Wilmer Flores
No. 1 Starter Johan Santana
No. 2 Starter Mike Pelfrey
No. 3 Starter Jon Niese
No. 4 Starter Brad Holt
No. 5 Starter John Maine
Closer Francisco Rodriguez
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
that’s from Adam Rubin’s Baseball America report.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
I’ll be shocked if Pena is ready by 2012. And I’d be mildly surprised if Flores is ready to take a MLB job full-time in 2102.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Then again, Flores will probably dead in 2102. I meant 2012 obviously.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
thought u were being funny
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
How about Tejada?
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Miguel will be retired by then….
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Ruben “The 19 YO Panamanian Superstar” Tejada
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
He’ll still be young but since he’s at AA and performing well I’d guess he’ll be in the picture — if not sooner. There’s obvious questions as to whether he will hit enough. But from what I’ve read they like his defense enough that perhaps he is the heir apparent to Cora.
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
despite the 12 Errors at SS?
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
beats me. i’ve never seen the guy.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
12 errors for a minor league shortstop halfway through the season doesn’t strike me as heinous. David Wright has 12 errors at 3B.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
Beltran is going to re-sign and close out his career here? He is 32 right now. His contract is up after 2011 and he’ll be 35 in 2012. I hope he extends.
stickguy
7/10/2009-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
not with his knees. I think at the end of his contract will be the perfect time to move on from him.
tkfj
7/10/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
To quote a Minor League talent evaluator, Pena just “flat out sucks”. Also Havens is a ? mark as is F-Mart, any more injuries and we have Alex Escobar V.2.0 on our hands. Rueben Tejada is nothing more than a no hit good glove infielder at this point, which makes him the second coming of Wilson Valdez.
tkfj
7/10/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
Also Josh Thole will be our starting catcher in 2011, miles better than Pena.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
Wilson Valdez? I would say closer to Jorge Velandia.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Quick question,
How many years does it take for a player to be eligible for FA? after their rookie season I mean…
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
6 years
3 at league minimum salary
3 at arbitration eligibility
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
so.. Josh Johnson will be a FA after 2011 season…
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
nad a yankee in 2012
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
He’d be two nads if he became a Yankee.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/10/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Scratch that. Marlins will trade him in 2011 WHEN they are out of the race.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
He’ll be a Red Sox ace. They will trade their pieces for someone that can help them win.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Heck, by 2012, Thole could be an established guy going to the all star game, or zapata could be a 21 YO Johnny bench clone.
Or they could both be selling used cars someplace.
way too far out to project.
But I dont think F Pena is ever going to amount to much, but heck, I was wrong one other time.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Just for those who continue to blame David Wright for all of the world’s problems (Mr. Bill, I’m talking to you), Wright is hitting .343 .422 .495 in the ever criticized RISP category.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Morning thoughts:
I really dont expect Halladay to be coming to the mets. Just doesnt seem logical on a lot of levels. So, let’s assume they wont be unloading the farm for him (if he even gets traded anyplace, no sure thing).
SO, who else is out there worth any of these “top” prospects? No one that I can recall hearing about (but of course, there could be guys traded not rumored to be on the block).
So, if Halladay is out, and no other stud is available, hang onto them.
But, feel free to make a couple of salary dump deals. Bowman for Laroche? Wonderful.
Basically, try to put the best team on the field for now, without hurting the chances for next year.
I also aassume Omar wont do much if anything until the trade deadline. Another 3 weeks, and they should have a uch clear idea of who will come back, and when. This is improtant, becasue the only way those other moves will matter is if a decent chunk of the stars on the DL come back, and are productive.
Right now, can anyone really plan around a timetable for guys coming back to halep? If there is a calvery, I have no idea how big it is, or what their schedule is.
So I guess I am advocating a modified status quo plan: Get ST but cheap help ASAP, and evaluate the prospects for bigger moves at the deadline, but likely dont make any.
For all the grief the Mets system gets, some of these guys are actaully quite interesting to me. Holt, Mejia, Thole, and Davis? Could all be closer than you think. And gee, they need a C, 1B, and more SPs next year…
that leads me to my next point. They do need to blend in some young (and cheap) position players, since you can’t always trade for everyone you need, or sign FAs. This is what they were trying to do with Murphy, but just becasue that didnt quite work out yet, doesnt mean it’s a bad idea!
as to murphy, the problem was they rushed him a bit, and tried to shoehorn a position on him at the same time. At least Davis (as an example) is a real 1B that can play solid D. So you just have to worry about the bat.
Still, some of these guys get traded, because I dont think the mets have the stones to say screw it, and go with 2-3 rookies at the same time (to support the “core”), although the potential payoff for the future is huge.
But, if they are gonna stink next year, I would rather do it with Thole, Davis, Tejada instead of Castillo, Shnieder, and Tatis!
CaseStreet
7/10/2009-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
can i get the audio version plz
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
at least I put in paragraphs.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
“Another 3 weeks, and they should have a uch clear idea of who will come back, and when”
We said that three weeks ago. I feel like I’m living the movie, The Money Pit….”two weeks”
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
my point exactly. they stink right now, so why not get the feet of some kids wet.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Well, in some cases you’ll be doing the kid more harm than good. Not to mention starting the clock prematurely on their 40 man roster time, which means they can become arbitration eligibile way too soon.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
Rule V too.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Oh yeah, for everyone pining for Dunn (especially for 1B) because of the HRs? I think they really have to put a premium on defense as thy go forward. No more butchers on the field.
tkfj
7/10/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Pirates are shopping LaRoche. I dont know how much of an upgrade he is over Murph, but he would add a solid bat to the lineup.
stickguy
7/10/2009-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
he is an upgrade for right now. Maybe not a huge one, but at least a “real” 1B. and he tends to have big 2nd half output.
If they can get him for a nothing prospect, by taking the salary (and it isnt too much), go for it, and send Muprhy to AAA to play a postion every day, or trade him elsewhere.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
If Delgado is really on track to come back on August 1, then there’s no way they’ll make a deal for a 1B.
tkfj
7/10/2009-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
Delgado isnt going to be back next year, and I don’t think anyone is ready to trust Murph full time yet. Going to have to solve our 1b problem in the offseason I guess.
stickguy
7/10/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
laroche is a rental (FA after this season) so he doesnt impact 2010 anyway).
stickguy
7/10/2009-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
8/1 has to be pushing it, but who knows.
Again, another reason Omar is sitting on his hands until the deadline. He needs a better idea of what he has and ismissing.
with a limited ability to make moves (so they better be good ones), hard to tell what they need the most. Although an OF seems like a safe bet.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
The hitting is not going to come around until they get guys back. Trading for one kinda-sorta decent hitter isn’t the solution. The solution is pitching, pitching, and more pitching. If they can get Halladay, they will contend for years to come. Regardless of their lack of offense. They have an opportunity to have a rotation of Halladay, Santana, Niese, Holt, Mejia…or scratch one of Holt and Mejia. I’m assuming Pelf would be in any deal for Halladay.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
Which is why I assume they can’t acquire Halladay, because in a rotation in which the 1-2 starters are making a minimum of $36 million total, the Mets will have to have some cheap viable major league talent in 3-4-5, and right now none of Niese, Holt or Mejia is viable major league talent.
If the Mets can somehow get Halladay without parting with Pelfrey they might be able to put a viable team with a reasonable payroll on the field, if they have to give him up they won’t be able to IMO.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Maine is. Still have Ollie (who isn’t cheap. We are looking for two spots in the rotation. I think we can survive with Maine, Ollie, Niese at the back end for two years.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
Maine has 1 full healthy ML season under his belt, 2006, and with Ollie @ $12 and unreliable, the Mets need a reliable, cheap starter, especially if they re-sign Halladay who will surely want Santana money which means 2 $25 million starters for the 1st half of the 2010′s.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
Which would be well worth it. Do you think Brad Holt has even the slightest chance of being as good? I’ll bet no all day. Matter of fact, betting Holt to be as good as Halladay would be about +100,000 in Vegas.
GravediggerHebner
7/10/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
Okay, now fill in the rest of a viable, realistic roster for the next few years knowing that the Wilpons will stay noticeably under the luxury tax.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Halladay. I just don’t see how he fits financially, and I don’t see how we have the players Toronto really wants to get him. I’ve read multiple reports they want a ML ready SS, so unless we’re trading Reyes or you know of some SS in the system I’m forgetting, we are not compatible with Toronto anyway.
steveo
7/10/2009-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
You have to think that if the mets don’t make a big splash in the off season santana is going to ask for a trade,he came here for 2 things to win and get filthy rich And when I say big.splash I mean a whole lot of moves.He already is starting to show his impatience.
mrbill
7/10/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
True… He’s watching his hall of fame #s slip away.
There's Always '09
7/10/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
This Santana situation is a sad one. He is worse off here than in Minnesota.
wannybackstra
7/10/2009-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
But maybe Minnesota would be even worse if they didn’t have Mulvey, Humber, Guerra and Gomez hitting uner his weight.