Jul 13
Pedro seeks a new crown!
Adam Rubin has the National League lineup and relays that Pedro Martinez has landed in Philadelphia for his physical with the Phillies. Here’s the lineup:
HANLEY RAMIREZ, FLA (R)
CHASE UTLEY, PHI (L)
ALBERT PUJOLS, STL (R)
RYAN BRAUN, MIL (R)
RAUL IBAÑEZ, PHI (L)
DAVID WRIGHT, NYM (R)
SHANE VICTORINO, PHI (S)
YADIER MOLINA, STL (R)
TIM LINCECUM, SF (L)
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/#ixzz0LAAJEPbQ&C
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123 comments
stickguy
7/13/2009-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
Cholly pulled a Torre, and added all his own players, whether they deserved it or not.
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
is that when they had an All-Yankee infield? Giambi, Soriano, Jeter, Ventura.
stickguy
7/13/2009-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
And, hopefully next year Jerry Manuel gets to do the same thing!
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry, there is no way I can root for Victorino in that game, even if he comes up in a critical situation where it means a hit and the NL team wins. Same thing with Werth. I’ve got no problem with Ibanez though.
I’d root for Chipper before I’d ever root for that whiny brat Victorino…
As much as it pains me to say it, the idea of this game having a bearing on what the Mets will be doing come October is more and more remote. I’ve still got my fingers crossed but talk about a long shot.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
I think the question is why, why is Ryan Braun in the starting line up over Jayson Werth? Where are Jeff Gillooly and Shawn Eckardt when you need them? Why, why are they not in St. Louis bashing Ryan Braun’s knee?
fongy2
7/13/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah Goobers a real dope for
rewarding one of his guys who
Oh yeah helped him win a Championship and who in their
attempt to defend it has their
team in 1st place again this
season. Yeah!, What a Dope
he is!
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
Your words, not mine.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Who did what in the WS last year should have no bearing on who goes to the ASG this year. I noticed Hamels isn’t going.
fongy2
7/13/2009-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
Although I’m
now apparently
being moderated
Again,asBobby
Bacala said:
To da victors
go da spoils.
Do you really
expect family
to dis or not
reward one of their own when
given the chance? What world are you
living in?
mrose
7/13/2009-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
you were moderated because of swears, geez man, way to overreact
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Not overreacting just making a statement.
Didn’t realize that a word that is in most dictionaries
was stil consider aswear.
Besides you should know better w/me.I dont attack persoally or name call unlike some others.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
It’s a program that does it. We don’t even see them until we log on and check the admin panel. It’s not personal.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
And, the flip side of paying respect to Victorino is the disrespect to Hawpe, Upton and Pence who were on the roster before him, named to it in fact with input from “Goober.”
Paying respect to Werth by naming him as the 5th Phillie to the team merely disrespected the other teams in the NL who had worthy OF but perhaps had only 1 player on the team. “Goober” got the manager gig fair and square, he can do with it what he pleases. I don’t have to agree with it or approve of it.
I stopped watching the All-Star game for the most part when I lost “teen” as a suffix to my age, and completely when Bud Selig decided it should determine home field for the WS. If 9 Phillies start and are replaced only by more Phillies, I won’t know about it until I read about it the next morning.
fongy2
7/13/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
Okay! obviously
doesn’t mean much to me either BUT as
always I like
to at least try
and understand
the other side
even if I disagree with it. Biggest joke is that
this is for home field!
Very weak!
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. It is a difficult balance to strike between rewarding your own guys and other guys, and who might take offense depending on how you balance that.
I really despise the home field thing, I vowed not to watch a minute of the game when that was enacted so as not to contribute to any ratings that might accidentally be attributed to “this time it counts.”
asod75
7/13/2009-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
I loved the All-Star game when I was a kid. But back then, they actually seemed to play the game to win, even though now it technically “means something.” Starting pitchers often went three innings and reserves didn’t really come into the game until the sixth inning or so. There wasn’t this need to get every single player in the game. Bud Selig has been awful for the game of baseball. I can cite all my reasons but it would be a dissertation, that’s how much I loathe the dork.
dirtysanchez
7/13/2009-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
we are going to get killed….i just hope our SP keeps us in it. Shano-mac should not be starting imo.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
And wow….reading many reactions to Pedro signing with the Phils. Can’t believe the ‘you’re dead to me now’ attitude. Do we really care who, if anyone, he signs with?
It’s not like we wanted him and he wouldn’t come here. It’s not like he’s gonna help the Phils much.
I just don’t get the animosity.
fongy2
7/13/2009-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! Didn’t Pedro open
the door for a bunch of other
Los Mets signings? And wasn’t
that Omars plan?
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Depends on how you define “Los Mets.” As I understand it the goal in signing Pedro was threefold. 1, make the ML team better immediately with his presence; 2, make the ML team better in the near future by making the team more attractive to ML free agents; and 3 create a pipeline of Dominican talent into the minor leagues and giving the Mets the “keys to the Dominican prospect kingdom.”
I think it had a brief positive effect in the first 2 categories, but at least so far it seems to have failed miserably in the 3rd category.
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
Please don’t imply one of
Omars plans
may have failed
here! Case,Wanny and
a few others
may get offended!
dirtysanchez
7/13/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
i doubt it…if omar messed up im sure those guys and many others would be the first to admit it but im sure those same folks will consider ALL aspects of omars moves..not just the results after they were done. Yes pedro was supposed to attract talent in the majors and international but it ddnt really lead to any international signings or what im sure many were expecting. Either way in 2005 he was pretty good for us. Just the subsiquent years were not kind to him and us for that matter
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
I thought and still think it was a great move.Certainly worth the gamble.This is Pedro we’re talking about here.
I only wish him well.
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
tnx for thinking about me. You might remember that I was all for Omar signing Tex, or trying to go after Juan Rivera. I even thought he should’ve signed Pedro for the 2nd half.
So no, I don’t agree w/ everything Omar does. Unlike you, I don’t need to go around and try to blame Omar for everything, like an obsessed ex-girlfriend.
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
So you have experience as an ex-girlfriend or with an ex-girlfriend?
Just kiddin’!
Don’t get bent.
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
b/t/w case,I’m mocked for having wanted to give Manny 2yrs/40Mil But YOU advocated Tex? When at 8yrs/200 Mil THat was never gonna happen. AND Am I wrong but didn’t you also love Bradley AND try and convince everyone Murph wasn’t a poor mans Magadan?
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Tex was/is worth every dollar.
I know nothing about Bradley.
I wanted Tex and Juan Rivera and Murph in AAA.
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
Amazing!
Now NO ONE wanted Milton Bradley
And EVERYONE agreed w/me that Murph should have spent the season @ Buffalo learning a Position. Amazing!
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
didn’t know I was everyone to you
talk about an obsession.
Don’t believe me? Here’s my proof:
http://dailymets.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/welcome-to-tex4metswordpresscom/
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
I remember that. Where did that Tex fella wind up anyway?
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
I was not present every day like I am now, but I do not recall anyone advocating Milton Bradley.
I was one who thought it was going too far for Manuel to name Murphy his starting LF in March, but I was one who thought he deserved to be on the ML roster as a part time LF/1B until I saw him butcher multiple plays in the OF. Only then did I advocate for him to be sent to AAA.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
They got rid of Church because he was holding hostility towards Murph. I recall a press conference where Jerry said:
“The hostility that he holds there towards him is not good. No. We need to rectify that immediately if not sooner. Heck, I think I may have to go gangster on the two of ‘em. Heeeheee”
dirtysanchez
7/13/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
well he wanted to come back…probably because he didnt want to leave ny with that image of pedro(always injured). Well pedro will be an improvment and philly needs sp….Im still a pedro martinez fan but i gotta admit its pretty weird for that guy to be on my hated team list
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
To me it’s only going to be weird if he does well. If he performs there like he did here in ’07 & ’08, I will consider it a form of justice.
dirtysanchez
7/13/2009-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
hahaha very true
asod75
7/13/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Actually Pedro was pretty good in Sept. of 2007 (I know it’s difficult to remember any positives from that time). It was just last year where he sucked royally. I don’t have anything against Pedro, he’s a Hall of Fame pitcher and he was outstanding for this team the first year and a half he was here. The Red Sox were proven right not giving him the four-year deal, but the Mets never would have gotten him without that fourth year. And who knows. No Pedro might have meant no Beltran. Still, I’m rooting for him to fail miserably in Philly, just because I hate that team. I would feel very cheated as a Mets fan if somehow Pedro discovered the fountain of youth and goes 8-2 with a 3.25 ERA down the stretch, given how bad he was last year for the Mets.
dirtysanchez
7/13/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
and thats a possibility since they only have him for half a year..
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with everything you said ASod except that Pedro was good in Sept ’07.
My take is he had a miraculously good W-L record but he was a 5 inning pitcher with the exception of his last start, which in fairness is the one we most remember (and ironically, the one that he lost).
9/3 5 IP 5 H 3 BB 76 P
9/9 5 IP 6 H 1 BB 92 P
9/15 6 IP 7 H 98 P
9/21 5 IP 8 H 2 BB 90 P
9/27 7 IP 7 H 1 BB 105 P
That’s a lot of bullpen innings that became necessary. He did well enough when he was in the game, but he didn’t stay in the game long enough, and I’m expecting the same in Philly.
asod75
7/13/2009-8:11pm at 8:11 pm (UTC -4)
OK, so maybe he wasn’t good but adequate. If Pedro had done that in most of his starts last year instead of giving up a three-run homer in the first every other game, the Mets make the playoffs last year.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
I agree it’s gonna be weird. But that’s a far cry from the ‘hate’ comments I’m reading on some blogs. Like I said, it’s not like we wanted him but then he decided to sign with the Phils. Last I heard, the Phils were the only team offering a shot to pitch this year.
Now…morph ahead a couple of years when someone like Wright or Reyes will be a FA (considering they’re still here….) and Wright decides to sign with Philly or Reyes with the Yanks….now THAT I might have some animosity towards. LOL.
dirtysanchez
7/13/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
lol…but pedro did “jump start” the omar era in 2005(making a post of this topic later), now i know its not a babe ruth kinda thing but would this be on the level of Johnny Damon going from sox to yanks…Glavine from braves to mets?
asod75
7/13/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think so, simply because I don’t view Pedro as an impact player anymore. I hope I’m right, because like I said above, I’ll be upset if somehow Pedro is healthy, pitches well and helps the Phils win another title where if he had just been league average last year, the Mets get into the playoffs.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
And how ironic would that be? Just our NY Met luck….
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sure the Phillies will love Pedro’s playfulness (showboating as a Met).
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t you just imagine Pedro being all calm and deferring to the Phils, and when asked about it by the press saying something derogatory about the Mets?
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
I think it would be great if Pedro shows upto his Philly press conference with Scott Hall, Nash, adn Hollywood Hogan and nWo’s them at the press conference with a Mets jersey on underneath. I’m sorry, but at this point, he is about 200x better than Tim Redding will ever be.
Kingman 26
7/13/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Ugh, I am so sick of Pedro. He had one good year, and maybe he helped us sign a couple of minor leaguers and maybe he didn’t.
Beltran wanted the Yanks enough to offer a smaller deal, and he came here as no other team offered him remotely what we did. Pedro had zero to do with it.
I wish Pedro well as a person, as he seemed like a good guy, but he was mediocre overall, was hurt when needed most, and the whole “he helped us sign guys” thing is completely overstated, if not utter nonsense.
I hope he is happy and healthy, and I hope he gets shelled every game, as he is a Phillie. If he was a Mariner or a Ray, I would hope he threw a shutout every time out.
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
To put things into perspective, per wikipedia “During his four-year Met contract, Martinez was 32–23 in 79 starts, with a 3.88 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP”.
BTW, here’s an interesting article on rotator cuff surgery recovery. It’d seem like Pedro’s chances of actually doing well are slim to none, though El Duque is an example of the rare exception.
Kingman 26
7/13/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
Very true, but if you pull out the 15-8, 2.82 ERA, and .949 WHIP from 2005, the last three years were a lot worse than those overall numbers.
And I agree wholeheartedly that his chances are slim to very slim, especially as he relied on power when he was good….Duque probably got away with it as he was more of a smoke and mirrors kind of guy (and I do mean that in the best possible way).
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
So you’re saying his chances are “Not Charlie Manuel to Very Not Charlie Manuel”?
trs86
7/13/2009-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
So lets see we paid what we did for a guy who averaged 8-6 win loss record for 4 years and even that’s not that good considering we were without more than we were with.
Pedro, even if I agreed with it at the time, was Omar’s worst signing.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
His injury in 2006 was killer. We went from a pretty good rotation heading into the playoffs, to not much at all.
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
This article suggests the Mets knew Pedro would need surgery before they signed him.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/01/pedros_surgery_cuts_both_ways/
asod75
7/13/2009-8:14pm at 8:14 pm (UTC -4)
I’m thinking Ollie may surpass Pedro and Limpin’ Luis as Omar’s worst signing. I hope I’m wrong, but the early returns aren’t good.
trs86
7/13/2009-8:47pm at 8:47 pm (UTC -4)
I really don’t think so. Pedro hurt the staff MUCH more because he was supposed to be the ace or in his last year #1B and it never happen. Perez was supposed to be our 3/4.
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
here’s the link:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070617&content_id=2032977&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
mattsmith
7/13/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Um, because Victorino IS the only capable starting center fielder the NL has. Mets fans have to come to gripes with the fact that Victorino is an All-Star. I know you hate him, but he deserves to be in the starting lineup. Nuff said. Get over it.
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
You left out that maybe,just
maybe after all the wars of
the past few seasons, Your
Mgr trusts his own guys a little more than he trusts
other guys guys.Especially
when the home field theyre playing for may well be at
CBP.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Well that makes sense, so he is starting Vicki so they will have a better chance of losing the game and being on the road instead of at home. Considering their home record.
You figured it out, Manuel is trying to tank the game.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly, what do we care anyway? Game has no bearing on our season
asod75
7/13/2009-8:15pm at 8:15 pm (UTC -4)
Phillies were 9-1 on last homestand, I’m sure their home record will be much better in the second half. I have no problems with Manuel starting Victorino. It’s not like I care all that much about the All-Star game anymore anyway.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
Charlie was largely responsible for filling the roster. So you’re saying if it wasn’t for the last chance fan vote he’s so dumb he would not have had a CF on his own roster? That rather strongly lends the “a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut” theory to the ’08 World Series.
fongy2
7/13/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
Please Heb learn with
these Phillie fans,
Don’t talk to them
Just at them!
THEY ALL WANTED Goober
fired as late as last
spring. They are getting to be as mind
numbing as yankee fans
in their hypocrisy.
You wouldn’t believe
the stuff I put up with
this weekend at a couple H’Burg/Reading
games b/c I was wearing
a Mets cap. At AA gms
fof Gods sake.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy I will certainly not tell you how to deal with people you’re surrounded by, but given that Matt is a member of the “NLEC family” I prefer to engage him in conversation, not “talk at” him.
He’s treated me fairly and respectfully in all my encounters with him and I think while he and I disagree on favorite team that we can nonetheless communicate with each other in a reasonable way.
Of course I can’t stop you from doing your own thing
stickguy
7/13/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I live in the philly market, and Fongy is right. U until later in 2007, the fan base hated him (overall) more than we hated Willie. The hillbilly jokes, however, were occasionally funny.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
Hard to imagine how Victorino deserves to be in the starting lineup when others were voted in by his own manager before he was.
stickguy
7/13/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t care where Pedro goes. If the Mets wanted him back, they only had to make a (big enough) offer.
I hope he goes to the Phils and gets lit up like Time Redding.
Not sure who will be exiting the rotation if they get another pitcher too. Pedro logically replaces Lopez (nee: myers). No way he bumps Happ, since he has actually been the ace of their rotation this year.
Still think they get Halladay though.
Oh yeah, Pedro isnt even a nissue for a while. He will need until at least August to get into his normal 5 inning form.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
If they get Halladay, we have zero chance of coming back this season. Keep that in mind. Next year’s chances will also take a severe blow.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
The only way Phils are getting Halladay is to give up Happ in that trade. You think they’re not going to want a ML ready pitcher to replace Halladay – and one with a fairly good upside (re: not a Park for instance).
Sorry, I just don’t see Halladay going to the Phils. They’re just not going to want to pull the trigger on what it’s going to take to get him.
Some say they signed Pedro in anticipation of giving up Happ for Halladay. I say that’s giving them way too much credit….
trs86
7/13/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
And if you are Philly with all those large contracts, do you trade Happ and your best prospects for Halladay?
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
No. That’s my point. I just don’t see it happening.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
They are crazy not to. There’s no time like the present. They’ll give themselves the inside track on the next two World Series.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
Does it? What is the last NL team to repeat? What is the last NL team to even go to back to back WS?
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-5:10pm at 5:10 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t care when the last team to do it was.
That is like saying, “black has come out on the roulette wheel two times in a row. i’m going to be everything on red because black can’t come out twice”. If you’re going to play GM by playing odds like that, you’ll never win.
trs86
7/13/2009-6:50pm at 6:50 pm (UTC -4)
Being that you used the reference, how many times does someone win the jackpot back to back in Vegas? There are stats to prove my point that teams do not repeat. Stats are made to be broken yes, but they are still stats.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
Why is that giving them too much credit? It’s the same as we should throw Redding in front of the 7 train and put livan in teh bullpen never to be heard from again, in anticipation of signing Pedro and getting Halladay. Our pitching gives us very little chance of winning 2 out of every 5 starts. Then consider I’m factoring Nieve is one of the 3 that gives us a chance to win. Less than stellar pitching is not going to cut it when your lineup is a skeleton crew. If you get a guy like Halladay, you can afford to have Schneider’s offense and Murphy’s lack of power at 1B.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s why:
Think about it. Your talking about an organization that signed a 46 year pitcher who did well for them the year before – not to a one year deal but TWO years. That to go along with Hamels who they thought would pick up where he left off, Meyers who they thought would be the Meyers of the second half (never mind his awful first half), Blanton who they believed to be solid and a 5th starter to be decided later.
Also to compliment Lidge – again who they thought would pick up where he left off when career stats indicated otherwise, Romero, who they thought would be a fresh arm upon his return from suspension and the other cast of characters in that BP.
There is a reason the Phils had one of the worst ERAs collectively so far this season, the Meyers injury withstanding. They did a worse job with assembling that 2009 staff then Omar did with the 2008 BP…..
CaseStreet
7/13/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
no one could’ve done a worse job than Omar (sarcasm)
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Not disagreeing either with much of your analysis. Is aid 5 weeks or so ago when Beltran went down that was the last straw and the only way we were staying in this race was with pitching.
The Phils have the pieces for the Halladay trade. I’m just betting they do not do it.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
I am not sure they can afford Halladay AND Pedro. Pedro may be cheap but he still cost money and so does Halladay.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
Halladay probably has the most reasonable contract in baseball over the next 18 mos. To pass up on him because he is too expensive is simply put, a mistake.
Phillies seem to be selling out an awful lot to not afford it. That group is in their early 30s. They are a win now team. A smart GM would trade Happ for Halladay in a minute.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
7 million this year for what’s remaining and 15.75 next year. Again, that’s still cash. Not to mention we have already discussed this. There is no reason for Halladay to approve a trade without an extension. He can get that extension either now or in the offseason. Why take the chance that you may get injured next year and lose out on your last big contract?
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s to hoping the Rockies trade for him. Because I really have a feeling it’s going to be the Phils.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
ESPN.com’s Buster Olney believes the Phillies should let the Blue Jays take three A prospects, one B prospect and one C prospect for Roy Halladay.
So the Phillies are supposed to send this for 18 months of Halladay or this and then sign him for 5/100+?
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Toronto’s best bet to get a major haul for him is to get us involved in this too. I think Omar needs to at least do his due diligence and drive up the price. Make them give up 4 A prospects instead, for example.
If he doesn’t, it’s gonna be a long two years at least.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
Again, why if you were Halladay would you risk injury next year when you know you can force an extension now? And 3 A prospects and B and a C?
Wow
That would be in our terms, we don’t even have 3 A prospects,
Fmart, Flores, Holt, Mejia, Havens?
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
The next ace will come on the market in 5 years.
metsfan4decades
7/13/2009-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
A smart GM would not have signed a 46 year old pitcher to a one year contract, let alone 2 years. They’re going to be eating at least half that contract, watch and see.
I get the feeling that b/c they won the WS series last year, they felt they didn’t have to do much in the way of improvements to win again this year. I think they’re only change was Ibanez for Burell, right?
I don’t see that the mindset has changed all that much, even in light of their awful ERA. Case in point is the Pedro signing, instead of Halladay.
sabermetrician
7/13/2009-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
“ase in point is the Pedro signing, instead of Halladay”
If that’s all they do, I understand your point, but if they get Halladay or another strong starter they’ve addressed their issues much better than we’ve addressed ours. And Ibanez in place of Burrell has proven to be a very wise move. If Omar had decided to ink Ibanez we’d be in much better shape this season.
trs86
7/13/2009-6:51pm at 6:51 pm (UTC -4)
He tried, Ibanez either got more from Philly or just did not want to be in NY.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
According to MLBTR “The Pirates are not close to dealing Freddy Sanchez, and no deal has ever been imminent, according to Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Teams have approached the Pirates about Sanchez, but the Pirates aren’t “pushing hard” to trade him, as it appeared last week.
Meanwhile, Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle says he keeps hearing a version of a possible Freddy Sanchez deal that would also send Zach Duke to the Giants.”
Now Sanchez and Duke to the Mets would be a very good move. Send them Redding to balance some salary.
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-4:45pm at 4:45 pm (UTC -4)
Sanchez and Duke to the Mets wouldn’t do a thing. Just when I’m starting to believe in Castillo too. Haha.
Phillies get Halladay and my countdown to Giants training camp officially begins because I can’t take watching that team celebrate again.
trs86
7/13/2009-4:48pm at 4:48 pm (UTC -4)
Whatever.
Get off of this Halladay fixation. He is not a Philly yet and there is a good chance he won’t be. We can’t live in fear of oh god the Phillies are the best team of all time…..
Make your team better for this year and next. Sanchez and Duke do that. Whine all you want and go with the whoas me approach if you like.
Sanchez can play SS, 2B, 1B and Duke can slide into the rotation for Livan.
oleosmirf
7/13/2009-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
and who do you give up?
trs86
7/13/2009-6:57pm at 6:57 pm (UTC -4)
Should not take much for Sanchez. Don’t know about Duke. I was thinking something like Evans/Murphy, Redding (for a salary balance) and a pitching prospect?
asod75
7/13/2009-8:20pm at 8:20 pm (UTC -4)
2B and 1B, sure but I don’t think Sanchez has played all that much short since early in his career. I could be wrong (wouldn’t be the first time), I’d have to look it up.
trs86
7/13/2009-8:49pm at 8:49 pm (UTC -4)
He has not but I think he could manage as well as Cora.
phillies09
7/13/2009-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
well…how can you be looking forward to the eagles celebrating again too?
There's Always '09
7/13/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
Haha…good one! For a second, I thought you were talking about the Philadelphia Eagles and all of their Super Bowls (celebrating again). But then I realized you must be talking about Boston College.
phillies09
7/13/2009-5:17pm at 5:17 pm (UTC -4)
haha strictly referring to giants stadium and the playoffs last year! Any Giants victory is superbowl caliber to me
asod75
7/13/2009-8:22pm at 8:22 pm (UTC -4)
That’s pretty much a loser mentality, especially when your team went on to lay a gigantic egg against the Cardinals the next week.
sabermetrician
7/13/2009-5:13pm at 5:13 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree about Duke, he is much better than Livan, Redding, or Nieve.
asod75
7/13/2009-8:22pm at 8:22 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, it’s not even close. Sanchez I could take or leave but Duke would be a nice upgrade for the rotation.
sabermetrician
7/13/2009-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
While I like the idea of Duke coming over, I fail to see how Sanchez helps this team too much. He hits a few more doubles than Castillo or Cora, but doesn’t walk much at all. He’s a man without a position when Reyes comes back, because like it or not Castillo’s contract demands playing time. And why would the Bucs be willing to take Redding? Okay, if you want to make a move that takes Sanchez and Duke to get Duke I like it. If you want to make that move to get Sanchez I’m perplexed.
oleosmirf
7/13/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
Sanchez: .316 6 HR 34 RBI
Castillo: .285 0 HR 18 RBI
big difference there…not too mention Sanchez would have more RBI and R playing on this team (once Reyes, Beltran and possibly Delgado return)
sabermetrician
7/13/2009-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Batting Avg and RBI are horrible measures that in a vacuum are meaningless. 6 HR to 0 is a big difference, but it’s not like 6 is very many. So he hits 5 HRs after the break for 5-15 RBI? That’s not going to impact us huge, and again money makes certain demands. It’s not like you could start Sanchez exclusively. Castillo would still get time. I agree Sanchez is slightly better than Luis, but not tremendously so. Batting 2 behind Reyes, Luis may be much more valuable than Freddy.
Luis: 43 BB, 18 K
Freddy: 19 BB, 47 K
oleosmirf
7/13/2009-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
Castillo brings us nothing offensively. Sure he can bunt and can beat out an infield hit but he’s not productive at all.
Sanchez is having a terrific season in Pittsburgh where he is pretty much the only real hitter on the team. Put him between Reyes and Beltran/Wright and you have some real production out of the 2 hole…
sabermetrician
7/13/2009-6:11pm at 6:11 pm (UTC -4)
Terrific season? Really? He doesn’t do much except carry a fairly high BABiP. We already have a player who is exceedingly lucky, do we roll the dice on another?
asod75
7/13/2009-8:26pm at 8:26 pm (UTC -4)
I like sabermetrics, although I guess I’m kind of a combination guy (not strictly going by sabermetrics all the time). I’m not a huge fan of Sanchez, but I like him over Castillo as the team is currently constructed (and if Jerry continues to bat Castillo 8th where he is useless). If the team is fully healthy, having a guy like Castillo and his ability to take pitches and work walks is invaluable in keeping rallies going, but in the lineups the Mets were trotting out there pre-Francoeur trade, it would be nice to have someone who can drive the ball into the gaps, something Luis has never done and something Sanchez does quite well. Guess it all depends on what type of team you have and what your needs are.
trs86
7/13/2009-7:00pm at 7:00 pm (UTC -4)
Guys you are missing it. For now he and Cora and Castillo can play 2B and SS. I am sure he can also play 1B if needed.
sabermetrician
7/13/2009-7:44pm at 7:44 pm (UTC -4)
Enough with playing players out of position. And do we really want to carry Sanchez, Castillo, and Cora when Reyes comes back? I don’t think it’s the end of the world, but there are better fits in the lineup. I love the Duke idea though. I don’t think any of it’s happening, but I’d like to see it.
trs86
7/13/2009-8:05pm at 8:05 pm (UTC -4)
Thing is he is the type that can still be useful once Reyes and Delgado returns. A lot of other guys are not.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-8:36pm at 8:36 pm (UTC -4)
Sanchez has never played 1B, so I really don’t buy that at all, throwing guys over there willy nilly has contributed to the mess we’re in now, and he has only played 1 game at SS since 2006 when he played 28. Fernando Tatis has played SS more recently.
trs86
7/13/2009-8:51pm at 8:51 pm (UTC -4)
Only because he was forced to. You have to think Sanchez could play SS better than Tatis. Also, you have to think he could play 1B as well as Murphy, Evans, Tatis, and Cora.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-9:07pm at 9:07 pm (UTC -4)
So where is the improvement? The position he plays well at, and actually plays, is the one we won’t (or can’t) use him at.
I like the outside the box thinking, but again, not the guy. Keep it up though because you’re eventually going to hit on THE GUY, and sadly you’re just as likely to do it as Omar Minaya.
IMO Teahen was closer to the mark (pun intended) than Freddy Sanchez.
trs86
7/13/2009-9:24pm at 9:24 pm (UTC -4)
I agree but think Sanchez may be cheaper. I also like the thought that next year Sanchez could force Omar to trade or dump Castillo.
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
I am going to guess that Teahen would cost more in chips to acquire than Sanchez. So is Sanchez worth “saving” on?
Teahen makes $3.575 mil and has 3.155 years of service time, so I’m not clear exactly how many arb years he has before FA.
Sanchez has an $8 mil club option for next year which if declined he will be an FA.
Teahen will be 28 in Sept, Sanchez 32 in Dec.
Teahen offers more positional versatility.
They are within .004 in career OBP and have exactly the same career SLG.
Sanchez has a .030 higher career BA.
I think the idea of Sanchez’ presence with an $8mil/1 year deal forcing Omar to try and rid himself of Castillo’s $12mil/2 years is a tad Machiavellian in part because surely the Mets would have to pay part of it so we run into a similar problem that we would’ve had with signing Hudson this year.
After all this, I feel more strongly that of the 2 Teahen is the way to go.
stickguy
7/13/2009-5:35pm at 5:35 pm (UTC -4)
hey, another chance to debate Halladay and the Phils with TRS!
TRS, I really think the philly ownership group has a different philosophy now (they were notorious for being cheap). THey are also a classic case of a team in their “win now” window. I also read the papers here, and there have been plenty of reports that they have some payroll room, and are willing to use it.
You don’t realize just how much winning the WS revitalized Philly as a baseball town (and made them pelnty of money). And the FO is smart enough to know that they ae in that fairly short window to try for a couple of more.
Ibanez and Moyer sure weren’t signed with the future in mind. And Howard probably only has 2 more years after this one, at best.
I also read quotes today from Halladay, and he pretty much said he is at the point of his career where winning is the primary focus. So, I still say he would be willing to go to a solid contendor, even on his current contract. Still better than playing the rest of the year with Toronto and finishing 5th.
Trading happ though is a risk, but they would do it. Honestly not sure how good he will be LT, but so far, he has been tha ace of the staff. Frankly, replacing his current production with Halladay’s would be a wash! So I think if they do make the trade, he won’t be in it.
No idea where that leaves Pedro and the rotation though.
And if hamels keeps pitching as poorly as he has been overall, Doc, Cole, Moyer, Blanton and Pedro still isn’t particulary scary.
rustyjr
7/13/2009-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
you woulda figured the same wouldve happened with us after the 2000 world series or getting to the 06 post season – funny thing is ownershp isnt afraid to spend – they just have a hard time goin the extra mile for a difference maker
GravediggerHebner
7/13/2009-6:40pm at 6:40 pm (UTC -4)
The only part of that I can take any issue with at all is:
“And the FO is smart enough to know that they ae in that fairly short window to try for a couple of more.”
Ruben Amaro Jr. has zero track record as a GM, how do we have anything to go on to say he is that smart? Please understand I’m not saying he’s NOT that smart, I’m just saying how can we know?
trs86
7/13/2009-7:05pm at 7:05 pm (UTC -4)
I think they can afford Halladay this year and next but not sure they want the contract extension. I do NOT think they could afford the Rios contract to go with it unless they are exchanging salary.
As for old debate for Halladay, think of this, did he get injured this year? Is he known to get injured? No not really. He is 32-33 yrs old. He gets 1 more big contract, if you knew you could force that contract extension now before pitching next year and risking another injury would you not do it? This way all you have to do is be healthy either until someone caves this year or in the offseason and you know someone will. And it’s not like it’s going to be a noncontender that can give up those prospects and pay him. There are very few teams that could do that, so going to a winner is really a moot point. If the Phillies won’t extend him the Rangers will, if they won’t the Angels will, if they won’t the Dodgers will…..
stickguy
7/13/2009-8:54pm at 8:54 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think that Toronto is going to be overhelmed with good enough offers for him, so he may not have that much choice. He can either go to the team that offers enough, or he can stay put.
So it is not clear to me that he will turn down a trade if the team doesn’t wnat to extend him.
If he does, it means he finishes out the year in Toronto, and no guarantee they move him in the off season (or again, find a team that he wants to play for, that will give TOronto what they want, + the big extension.
So, if he is going to finish 2010 on his current contract anyway, would he rather take a trade to Phila. right now, and instantly vault into 1st place (with a 95%+ probability of being in the post season), or stay with Toronto and have a 0% chance?
ANd even in the off season, you don’t alway sknow what you are getting into.
If he wants to win now, he may have to just take a chance that he stays healthy until he hits FA (exactly as if TOronto holds onto him, to make a run next year).
ANd he has made enough money that I don’t think he is risking his familys future by chancing to play out next year.
trs86
7/13/2009-9:23pm at 9:23 pm (UTC -4)
He may have made enough money but he stands to make 100 million more. The Jays don’t really have a choice but to trade him this offseason. There is no way they will just take the 2 picks and be out the talent.
Anyway, just speaking if I were him I would want the extension as early as possible. It will be a winner either way because they are the only ones that would even want to send the talent and money.