Today is another banner day in the infant life of NLEC. We have signed on “Wally Londo” and the boys of the brand new Fish Guts Blog. I hope everyone stops by and says hello to our new neighbor and affiliate and as I mentioned on the NLEC home page, be sure to tell any Fish fan friends you have about this new blog at http://www.nleastchatter.com/fishguts/ .
Jul 16
NLEC News: Fish Guts Joins us and completes us
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178 comments
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
“joins us and completes us” gives me some scary-wedding-vow feelings, and I’ve never been married!
“Well I’ve had the time of my life and I owe it all to you” is what I feel like I should be singing now.
But seriously, welcome to NLEC Fish Guts!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
And thanks for Mike Piazza, Al Leiter and Dennis Cook. (yeah, I know they got some value out of those deals, i.e. Burnett, Preston Wilson, etc. but don’t they always get good value in their deals?)
Joe R
7/16/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
Posted this earlier..
So what do we do if, and I knocked on wood already so dont get mad, Church hits a game winning 3 run HR!! Is it ok to declare the season over and accept the Baseball Gods are telling us this just isnt our year! lol
Joe R
7/16/2009-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
So it seems the trade for Francoeur, which most ppl are very positive about due to the upside and age, was not an idea of Omar’s LOL. Yes the assisant GM brainstormed and brought to Omar and Omar moved forward. Oh well Omar, we cant give you the credit if Frenchy returns to form!
Now its your turn Omar. Come up with a trade that will help us lol
tkfj
7/16/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
You’re kidding right?
Joe R
7/16/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
No serious.
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
GMs don’t work inside lead boxes. They all have assistants and scouts constantly communicating with their counterparts on other teams. The GM is much more “where the buck stops” than “where the idea starts.” Despite John Ricco’s participation in this particular move, whether it succeeds, fails or is simply indifferent it is a Frank Wren-Omar Minaya trade and ultimately reflects on them.
The head of Charmin didn’t invent toilet paper, but if the toilet paper hurts peoples butts and clogs their toilets, or if it cures hemorrhoids and fixes the Space Shuttle, he gets the blame or the credit nonetheless.
Joe R
7/16/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
Of course they do. Doesnt change the fact this wasnt omar’s bright idea.
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
But who cares whose bright idea it was or wasn’t? You do, I guess. I don’t give a hoot.
Take the Minnesota-Tampa Bay trade of Matt Garza for Delmon Young. Right now it’s great to have Garza and it sucks to have Young. Do most fans of Minnesota or Tampa Bay care who in their front office first brought up the idea of trading those guys for each other? I doubt it. I think all they care about is the GMs who decided ultimately to do it and now have that trade on their track record.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
And I object to the positivity about the trade. But I will be happy to be known as the lone dissenter if it turns out I am wrong that Jeffy can play.
Joe R
7/16/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
Very bizarre that a homegrown guy who could have been the face of the franchise was traded. He did have 2 good years not too long ago. It makes you wonder why they have given up on him so fast?? I mean i guess 2 years of no production isnt given up on someone fast but u get the drift…. Would the Mets have traded Wright if after his first 2 solid seasons he had 2 bad?? IDK
fongy2
7/16/2009-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
No two situations
are the same!
fongy2
7/16/2009-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
I simply don’t understand whats
not to like about
the trade Wanny.
I’m really starting
to think You’re related
to Ryan Church!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
It has nothing to do with Ryan Church but everything to do with how much and how obviously Francoeur sucks.
We went through this other day. Francoeur does nothing well at the plate. Even when he was “good” two and three years ago he wasn’t very good. Sure, he had some RBIs but he also had an abysmal OBP and just an average SLG%. He’s gotten progressivley worse and has shown no improvement in his pitch recognition at an age when he should be getting better, not worse.
fongy2
7/16/2009-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
OK, So
wheres the loss
if Frenchy
shows
nothing?
You dont offer him arb
or you do,get him fairly cheap for2010
and deal him.
We already
know what Church is.
So,again
whats the great risk?
Joe R
7/16/2009-1:45pm at 1:45 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with both of you. Just watching Frenchy makes me cringe seeing what he swings at!! But I cringe because he has a nice level powerful swing and should be better! Church as much as I agree has been treated poorly, had bad luck, whatever wasnt going to be sucessful here. Manuel didnt like him. He hasnt produced the last few weeks and it was time or close to move him out.
I dont know if we could have got more than we did?? Its very troubling why Frenchy hasnt seen the light? And i hope he hasnt seen the light because if he did see the light and just cant control himself from swinging at garbage..game….set….match!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
The risk, as I tried to explain the other day, is that Church is a demonstrably better player than Francoeur and improves the Mets chances of winning baseball games.
I know you’re stuck on the fact that Church averages only about 14 HRs per 162 games but I can’t think of anything less relevant than that.
Church has a higher career OBP and a higher SLG than Francoeur. In fact, in Francoeur’s best years, his OBP and SLG was on par with Church’s averages (and not quite even).
In most places, a hitter who gets on base more often and has more power (whether it be HR power or doubles power) is considered a superior player.
I still don’t see what the argument in favor of Francoeur is other than that he twice hit more home runs and ahd more RBI than Church (while playing more games than Church has ever been permitted to).
And don’t tell me Church can’t hit lefties until you check Frenchy’s splits v. righties.
It’s pretty obvious that injuries and poor management have prevented Church from playing more frequently in his career. First, in Montreal/Washington he was stuck behind high paid major league vets like Jose Guillen and Austin Kearns and in NY he’s been subject to Jerry’s inexplicable management even when not injured.
fongy2
7/16/2009-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
So YOU can object to the positivity about
this trade BUT I can’t
QUESTION the rational
for the amount of
positivity about our
season? Glad to finally
understand whos setting
the rules as to what
Met fans can feel positive about!
darknova306
7/16/2009-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
I’m with you on the trade. I don’t like it and have thought all along that Church got a raw deal this year. Say what he will about not having a fallout with Jerry, something was obviously up. Whether it was just senility in Jerry or something else, he never gave Church a real chance this year to show he was an everyday player, and he sabotaged him by benching him whenever he got hot. Jeff has a lot to do to make me happy about the trade.
metsfan4decades
7/16/2009-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
You’re not alone, Wanny….
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
The bottom line is that Church gets on base more than Francoeur and hits for more power despite the fact that Franceour once drove in 100 runs.
fongy2
7/16/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
You’re hopeless
Wanny!
I’m not gonna waste time on this since you obviously have
some sort of
infatuation w/Church.I dont want to blindly
hammer the guy
nor do I want to come off as some sort of
Frenchy
cheerleader BUT
no matter how you spin it
since 2005 the season both guys really got their 1st shot
(not gonna count Ryans
11-63 in
’04)Frenchy
had 2seasons
where he
played EVERY GM
drove in
over100
runs during
them &
won a GG
Church has not
done any of these things
for whatever
reason..
he simply hasn’t.
To actually
watch the player everyday
one can see what
he is…
An OK,corner OFer whos not
a big run producer,not GG
quality
in the OF,not a
great basestealer or even runner,
shows no sign
he’ll be a .300+
type hitter
AND has
“teens”
type power.
NOW,thats NOT to
say Frenchys
any better BUT again has more value.
Hes 25,
done whats noted above and you know there are many,many Petersons out there who think”I
can fix him in 15mins”
Are we
goin’ anywhere
this season?
Don’t you think a
25/26y/o
Frenchy
has more value than a 31y/o Church?
What??
Church gonna turn into an
AllStar
suddenly? Again,
I really
dont understand this reverence with which Ryan is
held by
you.
Almost anyone
looking
at Church
would say:OK
a 15/70/.270 guy,OK in the field,notmuch on the basepaths.Very ordinaryplayer.
Francouer?Who knows?
BUT he is 25,has had 2,100RBI
seasons,
GG might be
a little
overrated BUT his OF
arm is a weapon!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
You’re not paying attention to anything that I’ve written. I can care less about Frenchy’s 100 fluke RBI season or Church’s 14 HR. Who has the higher slugging percentage? What does that mean to you?
Sure, Francoeur plays every game. So what? What’s the value in playing poorly in a lot of games? Besides, if you look at his stats v. righties (which I gave to you the other day but you obviously ignored) you’d see that Frenchy shouldn’t be playing v. righties either (not to say that he should play against lefties either).
Wanna know something else that Church has never done that Frenchy has? Finish multiple seasons with an OBP under .300.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
If you were watching baseball the last couple of seasons you’d know that Church has a pretty good arm himself.
That’s hardly an upgrade the team needed to make.
Leave Church out of the equation. The fact is the Mets traded for an awful baseball player.
fongy2
7/16/2009-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
I dont understand what some of you think Ryan Church was/is/may be!
Hes 30,will be 31 in a few months.
Hes had 2 full seasons of stats over
2 and a half yrs..
Hes a 15HR,70RBI,.270Hitter.
An Average RFer w/an average arm
Ordinary speed,no great baserunner,
and has had some injury problems.
Now you dont think there are 50 guys
out there who could give you that
the next yr or two?
He struggles againsr Lefties,therefore
is somewhat of a platoon player AND
wouldn’t be the 2nd best OFer on
almost any other team.
Whats the big deal here?
Omar flipped him for a guy who has more value,is half a decade younger,
AND has had two good or above average
seasons in MLB. I’m no Church hater
nor do I love Frenchy BUT whats the
big deal here???
metsfan4decades
7/16/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I didn’t object to the trading of Church. It’s the Frenchy in return that I think was a waste. Thought we could have gotten something a bit better in return.
stickguy
7/16/2009-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
hard to know if we could have gotten something “better”, but I do think something different might have been more useful.
And saying francoer is worse doesn’t mean that Church is good, just maybe less worse!
trs86
7/16/2009-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
I still like the deal, much younger and plays everyday. Does not get injured.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
He plays every day only because he’s not injured. It’s not as if he deserves to play everyday.
fongy2
7/16/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
OK,so in ’06&’07 he only played everyday’cause he was healthy?
C’mon Wanny you sound ridiculous!
Let me ask’WHO would you have traded Church for?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
In 2006 he had an OBP of .293. Against RH pitchers he hit .248 .278 .424.
He sure wasn’t playing everyday because he deserved to be. He was pathetic.
But he probably played everyday because Bobby Cox, unlike Jerry Manuel, knows that young players have a better chance of improving by playing everyday.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know who they could have traded Church for.
But why did they need to trade him for someone who sucks?
They could have kept him.
fongy2
7/16/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
So you just stand pat with Church?
Hope to get another .270-2-20 half out of him?
And hope he doesn’t give away another 2or3gms by himself like he did during the first half? Then what?
He has even less value?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
I give up.
No, you trade him for someone who sucks really bad. Happy now? You make the team better by trading for players who have demonstrated the highest levels of suckitude.
(And nevermind that Church’s career track record suggests that he would slug greater than he has so far this season. But I guess Francoeur’s one fluke season of 100 RBI is more probative of a player’s worth than a career’s worth of data.)
trs86
7/16/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Why can you just not admit that this was just a plain ole fair trade of a change of scenery for both players. Again I like it because he stays healthy, is younger, is RH and will put up similar numbers to Church in terms of power in a bad season. We don’t necessarily need another OBP guy right now, we need an RBI guy with some power in the 6 hole. What good is a high OBP guy in the 5th spot with Santos and Castillo behind him?
Joe R
7/16/2009-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed!! I would rather have the dreams and hope that a guy who has done it a couple of times will do it agian!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
Look at their OBP and SLG and then tell me who the better hitter is.
And before you call Church a platoon player, check Frenchy’s splits v righties.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
Funny that you should point to Frenchy as having had “two good or above average seasons.” In those two seasons, his OPSs were lower than Church’s for his career.
In one of those “good” seasons, Francoeur had an OBP under .300.
Francoeur sucks bad.
trs86
7/16/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah his OBP is terrible, but it is not impossible for that to improve. The one thing that we have seen in the Mets organization is that they are able to increase OBP of their younger players.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Reyes had an uptick from horrible to respectable but has been stagnant now for three years.
Who else are you referring to?
It was never an issue with Wright.
And what other young player have they had recently?
trs86
7/16/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
As bad as we are on offense we are always near the top in OBP.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
How much does tea cost in China?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
What I mean to say is that (assuming the truth of that statement) it’s not because they’ve managed to educate young players.
fongy2
7/16/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
did he or did he not
drive in 100runs hitting in the middle of the order for a team
which won 94games?
C’mon Wanny, with Church,your all about
maybe,if,should,could,
AND worst of all…
you quote his stats
and state that if given
a chance to play everyday THEN try and
project those stats
as if with another
100,200 ABs he’d have
atleast kept that pace
and/or not broken down
which he does seem to
do.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
I think just about anybody who has ever studied baseballl statistics will tell you that RBI is about the worst way to evaluate a hitter.
Nothing can be more dependent on the lineup around him.
fongy2
7/16/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
Sooo,Churchy sux
slightly less???
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Look at it from the Braves perspective. Are they dumb enough to trade this young RBI machine who can lift 100 pounds right over his head and is full of potential for what you have decided is a platoon player?
trs86
7/16/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Would the Mets trade a guy who obviously is clearly better than Frenchy for a guy that sux?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
There is a confounding factor; the manager obviously doesn’t like the player.
So yes they might.
fongy2
7/16/2009-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
b/t/w, gotta love the marlin
blogs motto…No Fish Guts..
No Glory!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
FOngy — you keep talking about how mediocre Church is and about how good Francoeur was in 2006 and 2007. But did you know that between 2005 and 2008 Church never had an OPS as low as Francoeur’s in those two seasons?
Frenchy had .742 and .785 those two years. Church’s lowest OPS between 2005 and 2008 was last season at .785. He was over .800 each year before that.
You really can’t keep citing to those seasons as exemplars for Frenchy’s great work.
trs86
7/16/2009-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
True but you also know that some of those seasons Church as a platoon player so his OPS MAY be inflated a little. Most likely Church will always have a higher OBP but Frenchy has more power.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Church really had only one year in which he didn’t hit lefties at least adequately. I think if he’s finally given the chance to play everyday he can prove to be a solid but unspectacular regular if he stays healthy.
Playing everyday might decrease Church’s slugging slightly. But even if it does, the difference in OBP will be extreme while the difference in SLG will be minimal (Church is starting from a higher point before the projected decline even kicks in).
There’s really no way around the fact that Francoeur stinks, though. And that’s the problem with the trade. Whether they sent Argenis Reyes or Ryan Church they acquired, and will presumably play a crappy player.
trs86
7/16/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
You are a very stubbornned person sometimes. Church is 30 and average at best. French is 25 and has been very streaky and always had a bad OBP. Say they are able to improve his OBP, will that make him a better player than Church? Hands down. If not will he be tremendously worse than Church? No. If they threw Church out the window and got nothing in return then what have you really lost that can’t be replaced? Not to mention, where does Church play next season? You going with Fmart, a lefty and Church a lefty in the OF and Murphy a lefty or even LaRoche or Nick Johnson both lefties at 1B?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
Why am I stubborn? Because I don’t want a regressing player who was never better than the guy we traded for him?
He was always streaky? This some bad streak he is on.
What makes you think the Mets can magically improve his plate discipline and pitch recognition? Bobby friggin Cox had to send the guy to AA last year and gave up on him. But the Gangsta will fix him like Pete fixed Zambrano?
Franc is in this league for 5 years and hasn’t improved. He’s at the age where he’s supposed to be improving not getting worse.
And I don’t know why you’re worried about who is lefthanded next year or why you’re assuming Nick Johnson, Adam LaRoche or F-Mart will be on the team.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
I am not, I am trying to figure out what direction they will go in for this year AND next.
Who do you have the Mets going with in LF, RF and 1B next year if the Church move was not made?
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
How do you KNOW hes “regressing” at 25 AND this last yr and a half hasn’t been
a valley in a career? Dont you understand that atleast at 25 there should still be room for improvment?Maaybe not BUT EVERYONE already knows what Church is.
Dude! All us guys can be thick headed BUT you are unbelievable!
trs86
7/16/2009-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I see both sides of the trade. I like it because of age, RH and power potential. His OBP stinks but OBP and OPS are not everything. There is no doubt that the Mets need an RBI guy in the 6th spot and Frenchy has proven to be a better RBI guy. Does that make him a better overall hitter? NO. However, the Mets have all the OBP they need, they need an RBI guy.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
Francoeur hasn’t proven to be a better RBI guy than Church.
Church has an RBI every 6.9 at bats and Francoeur one every 6.8 at bats.
Church also played for horrible Washington/Montreal teams.
And again, RBI are largely dependent on other people.
And it’s just silly to expect that a guy who doesn’t reach base is going to drive in a lot of runs repeatedly. Seriously, TRS, that’s just silly.
And I haven’t the slightest idea who is manning those positions next year and neither does anyone else. But I sure hope sub. 300 OBPs are not among them.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
I would hope that Omar has a plan as to who is going to. I would hope that if not traded that Fmart is in the plans. I would hope that if it’s not Murphy that Omar would go out and get the best FA 1B available, who will be LH.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
I wasn’t aware that we knew who was going to be available next year and that he was going to be LH.
But thanks for that speculation.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, we do know who the FA options are. Do you need a link or can you find one on your own? We also know that we don’t have any prospects to trade for one.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy — I’ll just agree with you, despite the absolute absence of facts that you have presented so that you no longer think I am thick headed.
Thick headed is grasping on to a 100 RBI season 3 years ago despite multiple seasons of sub .300 OBPs.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny you know I love OBP but you also have to know that is not the only stat that exist. Frenchy’s OBP is terrible and it brings down his overall numbers for sure. However, would you rather have Schneider or Molina?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
It’s the degree, TRS. You can have a guy with a .330 OBP if he has a SLG around .500.
That’s not Jeff.
He is so woefully deficient at the most basic aspect of the game, getting on base, that the rest of his game has not just “brought down his overall numbers.” It has decimated them.
Again, even Church, who is no power hitter has a higher SLG than Jeff.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, Molina has a lower OPS than Schneider. Would that be a bad trade?
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
More proof Wanny.
Now I know you’re not an Attorney.Although you do like to argue like a bad criminal defense lawyer.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for the poor attempt at a personal insult.
But, in fact, I am an attorney. And I am an attorney at a fairly prestigious firm.
Now, is there a relevant fact that you would like to interject into this argument or would you rather continue to ignore all of the arguments I’ve made and resort only to arguments reflective of an amatuerish understanding of baseball such as “Church only hit 14 Hrs.”
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:45pm at 4:45 pm (UTC -4)
I apologize Wanny!
Although it does kinda prove one of my own theories about Attorneys.
You really do like to argue just for the sake of doing so.
b/t/w how prestigious your firm is or isn’t is entiely subjective.
I can tell YOU somestories of some “prestigious defense firms that turned out very poorly for a few clients
who had them providing defense. But its great you realy are a lawyer!
This simply aren’t enough of those!
Oh!,wait.
Nevermind.
BUT i am sorry.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
whatever.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:00pm at 5:00 pm (UTC -4)
Strong! Comeback.
AND Very Gracious Wanny!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:34pm at 5:34 pm (UTC -4)
I really don’t need to justify my professional credentials or skills to you.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:49pm at 5:49 pm (UTC -4)
No you don’t especially because I don’t care.I was trying to apologize to ya as its not personal.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:56pm at 5:56 pm (UTC -4)
You like to make repeated personal attacks, accuse others of being personal and then insist you weren’t being personal.
Remember that this argument you keep criticizing me for encouraging started with you asking me AGAIN why I think Francoeur stinks despite the fact that we had fully explored this the other day.
Read your own posts starting at 1:17, 1:31 and 3:06.
Then criticize yourself for arguing for the sake of arguing.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
Wrong! (as usual)..
I never said Frenchy was great
or even good. YOU however,
have said hes”Awful”,he sux”&
his 2-100RBI seasons were
“a fluke”. This while attempting to make people believe Church is OR will ever
be(now in his 30s)more than what he has already been…
If he just had a chance,if he
wasn’t always hurt,etc,etc…
AND this isn’t ridiculous??
You don’t think or you simply
won’t answer the fact that
Frenchy has more value,given
his age,the 2 100RBI seasons,
a Gold Glove AND his history
of health. You wouldn’t have
traded him. Why? He’s too valuable? He’s got too much
potential? He’s earned too
much love and respect ’cause
of his clutchness?
What the eff is it about
Ryan Church that you love
so much?? Lastly, I love the
fact that you believe you’re
the arbitrator of what stats
are important in baseball!
RBIs,overrated!-Wins by Pitchers,overrated!
Dude!, you’re unbelievable!
Really!
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
My take on it is strictly age based in the context of professional baseball performance.
Their are exceptions, but generally hitters have their peak performance years between the ages of 27 & 31, then start a decline, some more gradual than others.
So yes, Church did not have the every day opportunities as Francouer did to play in as solid a lineup as Francouer did, and was therefore unable to take advantage of his better OBP and SLG during his peak years.
Unfortunately for Church, he is exiting his peak years. Francouer hasn’t reached his yet. Will Francouer improve in key facets of his game to take advantage of that? Maybe, maybe not, but however slight the chance the possibility exists. It does not with Church.
So IMO they traded the better player right now for the possibility of the better player over the next couple of years. And they also did it for the sake of doing it. One can suggest that it provided a 2 game spark. Whether it provides anything more than that remains to be seen.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
I obviously don’t disagree — and couldn’t — that they traded for a younger player. But this deal was more like flinging mud at the wall and hoping it sticks.
Francoeur has shown no signs that he is improving. He’s showing signs of getting worse.
And the baseline for the belief that he can become good, i.e. his 2006 and 2007 seasons, is misleading because he wasn’t as good then as the RBI totals would suggest.
But as the season is on the fringe of slipping away and the window to winning big with the current core is ever closing, I don’t see how they can make a trade to get worse — in hopes of getting lucky.
trs86
7/16/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
If anything this trade does not make us worse.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
No? Trading away 100 OPS points doesn’t make us worse?
trs86
7/16/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
.690 to .644. 18 EXBH to 20 EXBH. Not significantly no.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
Francoeur has 70 something more at bats.
That’s why the percentages show more than the totals sometimes.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
So? Should I do HR per AB? 2B per AB, RBI per AB? Think it would be significant?
trs86
7/16/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
Not to mention you did not explain your gross overestimation of the OPS difference.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
SLG tells people’s extra base power. And if you disagree now I will hold you to it every time you try to use the stat.
Career OPS: .733 for Franceour. .787 for Church.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
Actually it’s a measure of total bases divided by ab’s.
Thus it also measures singles.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
And what is weighed most heavily in SLG… extra base hits?
Does Franceour deserve a mulligan here because he makes a lot of outs and he suffers an unfortunate loss in SLG pctg?
The goal of the game is to touch as many bases as you can.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, as an overall player I would rather have one with a higher OPS, however, in the case of the Mets and what they need there is a better chance that Frenchy can provide that than Church. Not to mention that in terms of trade value I still think that Frenchy has more than Church.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
So where is the 100 points? And why are we using career stats when we are talking about this season?
trs86
7/16/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
“No? Trading away 100 OPS points doesn’t make us worse?”
You want me to edit your question to “No? Trading away 50 OPS points doesn’t make us worse?”
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Fine.
Still makes us worse.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe, maybe not. Even if the numbers stayed the same, the difference would be insignificant, especially in the 6-7 hole.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
No Wanny it Doesn’t!
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with most of what you say in this comment Wanny.
IMO it’s reasonable to suggest that much of what Omar does is fling stuff at walls and see if it sticks. This is merely the latest example, so it shouldn’t be surprising but it may like some of the others turn out disappointing.
The part I disagree with is the “window to winning big with the current core” item. I can’t argue that this season is on the fringe of slipping away, I think I am on record as stating I think it’s already been lost.
But if this mud sticks, the core is augmented and the window of opportunity lengthened. If this mud slides down the wall, so be it. IMO this core was not being well augmented by Church anyway. Perhaps that is the key point on which we differ. Maybe where you saw glimpses that it was working I saw opportunities destroyed by strange managerial decisions or injuries.
I was really happy when Church was acquired. On one of the newspaper blogs the commenters called me “the Church apologist” because I was so supportive of him. I saw his numbers in Washington and thought “wow in a more reasonable park than RFK this guy is going to be really productive for this team.” But for various reasons it didn’t work out. I don’t see how it was suddenly going to in perhaps much the same way you don’t see how Francouer will now.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
WHAT!!!
This Criticism
of Omar WILL
NOT Abide!!!
trs86
7/16/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
What?
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
How can anyone suggest
Omar
just”flings mud
against
the wall”?
NOT OMAR!
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
I know I like Omar more than you do, but even I admit he’s quite the mudflinger.
Jose Valentin
Julio Franco
Moises Alou
Shawn Green
Brian Lawrence
El Duque
Fernando Tatis
Brady Clark
Fernando Nieve
Omir Santos
I’m sure not all of these are good examples just as I’m sure there are many good examples I haven’t listed.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
Many more that you have not listed but there is nothing wrong with it.
You could say that Sheffield was a mudflinger as well. As was Livan and Garcia.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
This crtic of Omar is an OUTRAGE!
AND I for one will not stand for it!
No Justice,No Peace!
trs86
7/16/2009-4:36pm at 4:36 pm (UTC -4)
Who has said we can not be a critic of Omar? We just can’t be obnoxiously biased about it.
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
No Peas, No Canned Hash
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Grave:
I think our difference of opinion on this one is two-fold. First, I don’t think this season is lost and I think that Church right now is better than Francoeur (if not in the future too).
Second, you are right that I have seen glimpses from Church. Everyone loved him pre-concussion last year when he was virtually carrying the team. I don’t blame him for the strange managerial decisions that have occurred ever since and I think at some point he will be healthy enough to make it through. Last season’s injuries were flukes.
Last, I don;t think it has been demonstrated that Church can’t play everyday, which goes back to the strange managerial decisions.
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:43pm at 4:43 pm (UTC -4)
That’s all reasonable. I think we’ve both staked our claims. Time will tell.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
If the Mets get back in the race and Francoeur contributes then we can both be right about something!
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:51pm at 4:51 pm (UTC -4)
But won’t the earth spin off it’s axis, or does that only happen if you and Fongy agree on something?
trs86
7/16/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
Great job Grave, perfect explanation.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
What you guys are also missing is the fact that trades energize the team and the player being traded, sometimes, and perhaps there was something that was going on with Church that we did not know.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
More to your point TRS,
maybe both guys wore out
their welcomes in their
clubhouses.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
Entirely possible. I am not going to use that as a crutch for the trade because I like it regardless. However, there is always more to the story that we have no clue about.
Like why would a guy like Manuel who has always been known as a laid back players manager not like Church?
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
I apologize for not being able to recall the blog (Mets Merized Online I think?) but a few weeks ago on a blog someone who clearly had press credentials (because they wrote about their experiences in the Shea clubhouse vis a vis the Citi clubhouse) and in the course of their writing stated words to the effect of:
“Church needs a puppy, he’s a whiner and a loner in the clubhouse.”
It seems fairly obvious that Francouer is a more upbeat, approachable, friendly sort. How that plays out on the field I can’t possibly say. But the clubhouse seems to have exchanged a malcontent for a happy-go-lucky.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
Regardless! THIS is
much to do about
nothing! Bottom line,
if Frenchy recaptures
his career and hits
.280w/20,25&100 we’ll
love him.If he con’ts
to bomb-out,he won’t be
here long. Is there almost ANY chance Church would a)stay
healthy AND b)put up
those #s? OR more
likely his career will
con’t to trend downward
and he ends up a true
platoon/4th OFer journeyman(this is his
4th team now) WHICH
hes well on his way to.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, last question on this, would you have paid a 31 year old Church 4 million dollars next year. Knowing what we have coming back and most likely what we will need. Don’t answer this question in terms of Frenchy, try and block out your biased here and just answer the question honestly.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
No, I probably wouldn’t.
But you do know that Frenchy makes more money than Churhc does, right?
trs86
7/16/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
You could not do it could you? I said “Don’t answer this question in terms of Frenchy, try and block out your biased here and just answer the question honestly.”
trs86
7/16/2009-4:43pm at 4:43 pm (UTC -4)
But in answer to your question yes I do know that and that is why the Braves sent cash to balance the salaries.
My point is that if it fails then we did not lose anything for next year because we would not have kept Church anyway.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
Either he already knew
or typically
left THAT FACT
out of his argument!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
And where does that number come from anyway? How do you know how much money it will cost to keep Church around?
trs86
7/16/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Just figuring based on years of service and arbitration numbers.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
TRS:
As to your point that Francoeur brings more pop, which is what you say this team needs, Franc has an extra base hit once every 11 at bats, compared to once every 9.5 at bats for Church.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:51pm at 4:51 pm (UTC -4)
5 HR to 2.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:54pm at 4:54 pm (UTC -4)
ooh.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
50 OPS points, oooooooo.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
TRS — there’s no justification for a guy with a sub .300 OBP and you know it.
And you know full well that a .50 point OPS difference is significant. And we’ll see this offseason when you advocate one player over another based on their OPS.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:10pm at 5:10 pm (UTC -4)
Dye for Wright in the offseason?
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely NOT!
Besides they have their 3Bman.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:14pm at 5:14 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, Fongy I was just making the point that Dye’s OPS is 70 points higher than Wright’s.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
Besides you still have not answered the questions. Does it REALLY impact this year significantly if Frenchy hits 50 points lower than Churh’s OPS? Did we lose anything in the long run?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
I have answered that. Over the couse of half a season the difference in their OBPs could result in Church reaching base 10-15 more times.
That could be the difference in more than a one or two wins.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
More proof Shakespeare didn’t intend
it to be a cliche or joke!
Just argue for the safe of arguing,
Then to prove that one is not just
an Attorney but a NY liberal one,
if someone disagrees..name call!
Great! OR Grate!
trs86
7/16/2009-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
Both of you are acting kind of childish really. I am debating the point but I refuse to get sucked into anything personal. You are both very stubborn as am I but lets understand that there is always a reason for baseball moves and most of the time it’s a reason we know nothing about.
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
You are not wrong.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
Your poor attempts at insult and humor remind me of a time we hired an investigator to evaluate a defect in a sidewalk for a very significant case. The investigator sent us photos of the defect — but without a ruler or measurements.
Sometimes people just aren’t as smart as they think they are.
And remember, it takes to argue for the sake of arguing. What do you think we are doing here… finding the solution to world hunger?
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not trying to
insult. Really!,
just having some fun
w/a fellow fan who
always seems to be
cock sure of their
opinion and who often
belittles the opinion
of another die-hard
who right OR wrong IS
well informed and after
almost four decades
of following it day in
and day out has SOME
idea what hes talking
about. AND re; your
Investigators story…
Not surprising. I’ve
seen alot in over 20yrs
including the exact same story.Dif is that
unlike Docs and Mouthpieces,Investigators have no old boys club that prevents us
from ever realizing that some who do the
same work as we do may
just be bad at it.
AND there is NO defense
for/of them.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
I will say that I disagree with you more than I agree, but you are very well informed and are obviously a true fan.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
Belittling…
fongy2 says:
Thursday, July 16 2009 at 3:07 pm
You’re hopeless
Wanny!
I’m not gonna waste time on this since you obviously have
some sort of
infatuation w/Church.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:28pm at 5:28 pm (UTC -4)
Tongue
in cheek
Wanny.
Maybe if
you laughed a little
more you
wouldnt
always
feel the need
to argue.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:32pm at 5:32 pm (UTC -4)
Have you been arguing?
trs86
7/16/2009-4:54pm at 4:54 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny we can go back and forth on this for hours. However, my question remains, if Frenchy continues to suck like you think he will, what did we lose? Especially longterm?
Can you not at least see why this trade was made? Regardless of what YOU think will happen, I hope you can at least see the rational.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
I see the rationale. But do I have to agree with it?
And what have they lost? I think they lost a chance, however much, of coming back this season.
trs86
7/16/2009-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, no you don’t have to agree with it.
I guess 2nd question, do you honestly believe that replacing the 6th spot with Frenchy over Church will cost us our chance at coming back this season? If you do then I feel sorry for you, there is no hope for the Mets this year and you are now out of luck because of 50 OPS points.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
Over the course of a season, a batter with a .040 OBP advantage over another will reach base approximately 25 more times.
You don’t think that can make a difference in a couple of key games?
trs86
7/16/2009-5:07pm at 5:07 pm (UTC -4)
So should we trade David Wright for Jermaine Dye? Would that trade over the course of a season make us a better team?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:13pm at 5:13 pm (UTC -4)
Silliness.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
Why? Dye’s OPS is 70 points higher than Wright.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:17pm at 5:17 pm (UTC -4)
Context and track record are two reasons to start.
Silliness.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
Apples and oranges are two others.
When Wright has a sub .300 OBP for multiple seasons you can trade him for whomever you want.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
NO NO NO. You said 50 point in OPS. Stop changing the argument. I can provide examples of the other as well. Again, would you rather have Molina or Schneider?
trs86
7/16/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
So Dye does not have a track record of a high OPS?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:24pm at 5:24 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not changing the argument. You’re arguing apples and oranges in a completely different context.
Church for Franc was not a trade of a young superstar 3B for a veteran all-star OF. Church for Franc was a trade of an average MLB player for an awful one who is getting worse.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
NO NO NO?
Do me a favor, don’t talk to me like I’m a child.
Your “argument” is ridiculously out of context.
Not to mention it ignores Wright’s and Dye’s career track record… just as you are doing with Francoeur, whom you are projecting based on nothing might help.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:27pm at 5:27 pm (UTC -4)
“Over the course of a season, a batter with a .040 OBP advantage over another will reach base approximately 25 more times.
You don’t think that can make a difference in a couple of key games?”
What me to change that to
“Over the course of a season, a batter with a OBP of below .300…….
You don’t think that can make a difference in a couple of key games?”
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:28pm at 5:28 pm (UTC -4)
????
fongy2
7/16/2009-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
BECAUSE CHURCH WAS
TRADED FOR FRANCOUER?
Wanny!, Dude!,Please
never leave home w/o
your Meds!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:05pm at 5:05 pm (UTC -4)
Even if it’s a small diminishment, why do it? Why make the team worse even a little?
You yourself have said several times something to the effect of how you are owed a winning season. Getting worse is not getting better.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
Because there is more than just this season. Church was not going to help us win this year, PERHAPS MAYBE Frenchy can. If not…
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
Church is more capable of helping this season than Frenchy.
I’m not sure what you’ve seen from Frenchy that suggests otherwise.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
Actually neither based on stats is very capable of helping the Mets this season.
However, based on current stats Church is a better overall hitter and based on potential I think it swings to Frenchy. So this trade could go either way. I hope I am right and Frenchy leads us to the playoffs and I hope you are wrong and Church continues to be a platoon player for Atlanta too.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
Not just based on current stats… but on every year’s stats, except 2007…
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
Also, keep in mind that Church has battled an injury, inconsistent and inexplicable benchings and has underperformed relative to his recent history. He’s likely to get better in the second half.
Francoeur is healthy, playing every day and is performing to the same subhuman level he has played to for the last year and a half.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:16pm at 5:16 pm (UTC -4)
Also keep in mind that Church, justified or not, is always battling injury and inconsistant playing time even when he was with the Nats.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:19pm at 5:19 pm (UTC -4)
The fact that Manuel doesn’t play him or that in Washington/Montreal he was blocked by salaried guys like Guillen and Kearns doesn’t make him any less of a player.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:14pm at 5:14 pm (UTC -4)
God are
you assuming
ALOT!
GravediggerHebner
7/16/2009-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
Gentleman thank you all for the interesting and spirited discussion this afternoon. I have to step out but I leave you with 2 things:
Jerry Manuel is scheduled on the FAN at 5:05 for anyone who cares to and can listen (I can’t); and
It will be interesting to see if Church is in the lineup tonight against Ollie.
mrose
7/16/2009-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
church not in lineup
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:24pm at 5:24 pm (UTC -4)
Damn that know nothing
Bobby Cox! Won’t give
poor Churchy a chance
against a Lefty! Dope!
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:27pm at 5:27 pm (UTC -4)
What’s Francouer hitting v. righties?
Will you ever “investigate” that?
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:31pm at 5:31 pm (UTC -4)
this year Franceour is hitting 237 .271 .339 v. righties. Should he be platooned?
stickguy
7/16/2009-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
probably.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
NO! b/c
a)I’m
not getting
paid &
b)I dont
care that much.
Unlike
you,I’ve
seen enough
baseball
in the past 40s
that I dont need to
consult
stats to tell
me the
better
player
b/t 2guys I’ve seen
plenty of.
You see
its a matter of opinion
and yours carries
no more or less
weight
than mine.
You should
consider
that.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:40pm at 5:40 pm (UTC -4)
So you already knew without looking at the stats that Francoeur has a .270 OBOP v. righties this season?
Or do you not believe what the numbers say?
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:46pm at 5:46 pm (UTC -4)
And he continues to argue!
To answer,NO I didn’t know that stat.Again though you miss the point.I’ve seen enough (hundreds of gms)to believe my own eyes.Church,very ordinary player.Frenchy,not a whole lot better.But a little.
wannybackstra
7/16/2009-5:48pm at 5:48 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not arguing. I’m just asking the same question you’ve refused to answer for about a week now:
Do you think Francoeur should be platooned?
trs86
7/16/2009-7:53pm at 7:53 pm (UTC -4)
No I do not, now if he is 30 and still hitting that way then yes.
trs86
7/16/2009-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, later guys.
stickguy
7/16/2009-5:35pm at 5:35 pm (UTC -4)
bottom line, and I know how a few of you like to argue the details, but this was a trade of 2 guys that aren’t really good right now.
But, Francore has to get the nod for upside potential (to channel my inner Dicky V.) And that, probably along with the change of scenery aspect, was probably a major factor in this deal.
Hey, sometimes it takes a while for a guy to decide he really does need to change his approach. There is nothing that I have seen to indicate that Franky does not have a lot of talent, nice swing, etc.
In fact, most reports are that he is underperforming relative to his potential, based on the mental part of his fame (approach and sutbborness).
So is it really impossible to think that he could finally, at 25/26, realize this, and work on that aspect? And if he does, he might actually take a step up to the next level?
IMO, Church isn’t likely to change much at this point.
I always harp that the tough part of being a GM is projecting what a player will do over the next 1-2-3 years. And dope with an ISP can look up what he did in the past.
steveo
7/16/2009-5:35pm at 5:35 pm (UTC -4)
Just a little side note Frank wren said on tuesday that church will not be an everyday player for the bravos he will platoon with diaz on the days when he woul be facing a lefty.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:53pm at 5:53 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t even know if thats an option right now b/c we have no players and
i’d think the team would want to know
what exactly they have here in this
Frenchy guy. You may end up correct,
now theres a statement I’ve rarely
seen you post to another,Francouer
may go 5 for 50 and they’d almost
have to sit him often.
fongy2
7/16/2009-5:54pm at 5:54 pm (UTC -4)
That was in response to your
last post wanny.