Rich Harden
Jose Morales
Carlos Pena
As this season slowly crawls down a dark tunnel of despair, as normal many Mets fans look for light at the end of that tunnel. In my attempt at this I have spent time looking at this year’s payroll and next year’s possible payroll. Assuming that rumors are NOT true and the Wilpons will not cut the budget, the Mets should have around 140 million to work with. Now before you get ahead of yourselves all players on the 40 man roster count towards that payroll. At this point we have about 92.3 million of guaranteed contracts. So we have 48 million to spend, well not exactly. Some of that money is almost assuredly going to arbitration candidates such as Pagan, Feliciano and Stokes. Some of the next steps are not so clear. This is where the fun part comes in. Take a look at this link to our payroll courtesy of Cot’s Baseball Contracts. Here is my attempt at giving the Mets the best shot to compete with realistic players, trades and a salary under 140 million.
Position Players:
Carlos Pena (obtained in a trade from the Rays who will look to unload his salary) 10M
Castillo 6.25M
Reyes 9.375M
Wright 10.25M
Santos .4M
Chone Figgins 7M (Signed as a FA for 3/21, got the idea from a Joel Sherman post)
Beltran 20M
Frenchy 3.75M
Pagan 1M
Sullivan 1M
Cora 1.5M (Resigned for less because of age, market and overall numbers, if he does not want to come back at that price then….)
Murphy .4M (If Murphy is not traded then he could become a cheap utility player)
Jose Morales .4M (Trade with Minnesota. AAA catcher that consistently hits over .300 in the minors as well as his time in the majors, blocked by some guy in Minny)
Pitchers
Santana 21M
Rich Harden 8 M (Signed as a FA 3yrs/30M, injury risk is there but it is also there in many of the other pitchers on the market. I am flexible here but the replacement has to be RH and under 10 M a year)
Pelfrey 2.25M
Perez 12M
Niese .4M
Nieve .4M
Green .4M
Stokes .4M
Parnell .4M
Feliciano 2 M
Joe Beimel 2.5M (Signed FA like he should have been this year 2 years/6M)
Krod 11M
Missing names:
John Maine: I have Maine resigned for around 2M. He is arbitration eligible but hopefully the Mets and Maine can work out a cheaper deal to keep him around and rehab on us. If healthy he would compete with Niese and Nieve for a rotation spot or he could go into the pen and work as a long reliever or setup man.
Fernando Tatis: Mr. DP had a good run in 2008 but his time with the Mets is done.
Brian Schneider: What a frustrating tenure for this guy. Defensive specialist he never was and his BA is actually under .200. All for 5M. No thanks.
Tim Redding: Well Omar, Tim fooled us both. I still don’t understand those stats from the 1.5 years before this year but let someone else figure that out.
Jeremy Reed: I had Reed resigned for 1M and competing with Sullivan for the 5th OF job. He lost and went to the minors. Reed could also be traded.
Anderson Hernandez: Back to the minors bud, we will see you in week 2 for Castillo or Reyes.
Carlos Delgado: Delgado will be a mystery for whoever signs him. Hopefully it is an AL team that can give him proper rest and a chance to continue to assault the record book. Delgado will most likely still command 8M and that is far too rich for a guy that we have no idea what we are getting. Thanks Delgado for a good run and good luck.
Gary Sheffield: I really liked the Sheff pick up this year because he cost us 400,000. Next year Sheff will command much more from an AL team where he can DH again. If Sheff wants to make us a charity case and continue to be a bench player here for 1M then welcome back.
Billy Wagner: I will try and not be biased here as I never really liked Wagner’s attitude. However, when healthy Wagner was one of the best closer’s in the game. Wagner does not have many if any good years left, however, and the Mets nor Wagner can afford for those closing years to be here as a setup man.
J.J Putz: We hardly knew yea. It’s unfortunate that Putz was not healthy this season. He may have been able to prove his worth for his 9M+ option to be picked up, however he did not and the short budgeted Mets can not afford to pay 9M for a question mark.
Feel free to try your own version and post in the comment section.
Obviously some of you may have been looking for how I fix the front office mess as well. I chose not to focus on that because no matter who is there their job will be difficult. I think that this is the end for Omar and Assistan GM John Ricco will take his place. As far as manager, my hope is they look outside the organization. My personal pick is Joey Cora, currently with the White Sox and has been under the tutelage of Ozzie Gullien for many years.
Joe Beimel
Chone Figgins
198 comments
udontmesswthejohan
8/10/2009-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Well, injury risk notwithstanding, I think it’s unlikely that you get a guy like harden for $8 mill per.
Also, i like the Pena deal as that gives the offense a little more pop, but I worry if that is enough. I suppose he would essentially replace delgado’s power numbers so we are back to square one there. Is that enough? Anyway we could pry CC away from the Rays in a deal for the two of them. It would cost, but that’s two really good players right there. Reyes and CC at the top of the order would be one heck of a combo.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
That’s why I went after Figgins. Not much difference on offense.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
Also, if you noticed I had Harden at 3/30 with a pay cut this year.
udontmesswthejohan
8/10/2009-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I guess, but again even with the injury issues, I can’t see thsi guy making less than Ollie. If he would sign for $10mm per, then yeah I’d be interested.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
I think he may be the odd man out with a few names going in front. Remember a lot of big market teams may not be looking for a SP like Harden. After him the 10M talent pool drops quick.
jaded1983
8/10/2009-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
Where does Figgins play?
udontmesswthejohan
8/10/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Well, he plays third now, but I guess TRS would have him playing in the OF where I think he played some in the beginning of his career.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, that Idea was brought up as I said by Sherman.
jaded1983
8/10/2009-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
Also, do we know what these FA will be ranked as? If we finish with a record that will allow us to protect our 1st round pick, does that mean for only 1 type A signing, or is that regardless of how many we sign?
trs86
8/10/2009-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
As of right now Harden and Figgins are A’s and Beimel is a B.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I guess I have to say it; I don’t really like any of it (except for the ones we got rid of).
Pena has trended downward badly each of the last two seasons.
Signing Harden for three years is exactly what this team doesn’t need; more injury prone players to rely on to front their lineup/rotation.
I like Figgins but don’t think he’s a good fit in a lineup with Luis Castillo already in it and no power from the catcher either. Plus, he’s not a very good outfielder. But I could live with him for the sake of the excitement he brings on the basepaths.
Hate Joe Beimel very much. A classic LOOGY whose ERA numbers don’t typically reflect how poorly he pitches.
I’m not suggesting that I have any better ideas because I don’t. There’s just not much in the free agent class and I have no idea who can be traded this offseason. I just don’t like these particular players.
I’d probably prefer to spend more on John Lackey than less on Harden. And try to acquire a couple of younger power hitters who are blocked (i.e. Kyle Blanks, Kila Kuuiahe or even Billy Butler, etc.) if Jason Bay is unatainable.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
I think Morales is the right idea, though. We need a couple guys like that.
udontmesswthejohan
8/10/2009-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
“Hate Joe Beimel very much.”
Haha.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
I was not a big fan either of Beimel either but his WHIP is down this year.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t like LOOGYs but with the way Jerry uses the pen you don’t really have a choice but to have two. So if Beimel is limited to being the early inning lefty with Feliciano the late inning guy then I guess I could just change the channel when he pitches.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, like I said he has pitched better this year. Problem is unless we think Bostick can do it there is no one in the organization and there is not much on the market either.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:02pm at 2:02 pm (UTC -4)
Are you as surprised as I am that Bostick has not been up yet this year?
metsfan4decades
8/10/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
I’m puzzled by that too.
For the record, I also like Lackey.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
I’m all for quality over quantity. If getting Lackey means not getting Carlos Pena then so be it.
You’ve been a fan for 4 decades, you can wait for a 5th decade to do things right!
trs86
8/10/2009-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
I would much rather have Pena and Harden than Lackey and Murphy but that’s just me.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
There’s merit to each point of view, I think.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
IF I thought that Lackey was going to be a true innings eater for 4 years AND Murphy could have an .800 OPS then I am with you.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
C’mon. You make it sound like Harden and Pena come with warranties.
The only thing guaranteed with Harden is that he won’t start a full slate of games. I bet more people would wager that he pitches closer to 15 than to 30.
And Pena right now couldn’t find first base if it was his pillow.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
Also, Wanny thanks for not letting me down. LOL
Anyway, can we afford to go into next season with question marks in LF and 1B with those guys?
Point with Pena, he has trended downward, however he still puts up good power numbers. Where else are we going to find those power numbers from a guy making only 10M for one year? It provides us some stability there and time to see what Davis is going to do.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
Also, another point on Pena is that he may be the cheapest in terms of prospects for a 1B as well. If you trust Delgado and find a good backup where total they cost 10M I could be persuaded.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely agree we can not return the status quo.
And your point about Pena as a one year stop-gap to assess Davis’s progress is a very good one. If TB will accept something less than our top tier of prospects in return then it is something Omar/Beane/Ricco/TRS86 should investigate.
Ideally I’d like the Mets to get a young right handed hitting 1B who is blocked elsewhere who can also play a corner outifled spot. That player could play with Murphy next year — or instead of – and with Davis the following year or later next year too. Someone like a Matt LaPorta is what I am thinking.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
Problem is again Wanny that forces our hand in LF. If it’s question mark at 1B then we have to have a power hitting LF and besides Holliday and Bay there is not much out there.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
Your point on Pena, I could not imagine it costing anything but lower B prospects. As you said Pena has trended downward and 10M is a lot for TB to pay for him.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
I hear ya. But with the $10m they’re not paying Pena, maybe they could bring in Bay or Holliday.
Besides, my plan to get a guy like LaPorta is not an easy one. Teams don’t give away young players like that.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
You know you are not getting Bay or Holliday for 10M. I guess if you mean 17 million between Figgins AND Pena. True. But that’s a lot to invest in 1 player when you have so many holes.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Of course not for 10 million. But if you give Pena 10million then you are definitely not getting one of those guys.
As I said above, I’m for quality over quantity. They’re not going to fill all of their holes this offseason anyway.
A guy like Holliday is part of the solution for more than just next season.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
True but how much do you think it takes to pry him out of St. Louis? 4/70? Again Pena is a 1 year deal costing just money.
njstuckintx
8/10/2009-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
Who do you think has to get shipped out in the proposed trades?
What’s going to be rough is realizing we’ll have the same rotation in 2010 after Harden goes down. I’m really hoping parnell can stretch that arm out and be our #6-7 pitcher. High Risk/High Reward with Harden, I guess.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
That was what I tried to think of in these trades. I could have came up with these outlandish proposals where the Mets got AGonz, Fielder or another top power hitter. That is most likely NOT going to happen. So the guys I picked in trade Pena would be a salary dump and Morales is a blocked minor league player. I don’t think we would have to give up ANY top prospects.
njstuckintx
8/10/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
My only concern with Morales and Minny’s ability to give him up is what other catching prospects/players do they have? You know Mauer Power is taking the first train on the Free Agent express to Boston or somewhere similar and they well know that.
Do I hope for a catcher type like that, yes. Is Morales the best find you came across for young catchers not costing an arm & leg? I personnally love Doumit, but that would cost way to much and I think Pitt is done dealing.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
I think they will find a way to keep Mauer. They did with Nathan and they did with Morneau.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
I really don’t think Mauer is going anywhere. I expect him to be extended this offseason. Hell if not then lets go get him. LOL.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
.365 .434 .611 1.045. LOL now that’s a catcher.
prismo
8/10/2009-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
Figgins would be a good signing. He could hit lead-off, and allow Reyes to bat a little later in the lineup, and maybe even let loose his hidden power.
trs86
8/10/2009-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I did not put my lineup in there because I did not want it to be about the lineup.
Figgins, Castillo, Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Pena, Frenchy, Santos
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
That would be the lineup I would go with that group of players.
1-3 would be awfully pesky if they were all healthy.
The team’s success would depend whether those guys in the 6-7 spots could produce runs consistently. There would be no shortage of opportunities with the 1-5 guys in front of them.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t like using RBI as a stat but all 3 of those 6-8 hitters are good RBI men.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
You have 3 guys that strike out too much, and no power against righties at the top of the line-up.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Power, maybe not. However isn’t the top of the order designed to get on base?
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
I would be very intrigued to bat Figgins 9th and go double leS off.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
*lead off
trs86
8/10/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
Why would you take a guy with an OBP of .390 and bat him 9th?
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
you wouldn’t, i hope…
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
Because jose reyes cannot bat third, and i like him leadoff more than figgins. If anything you might have to sacrifice Castillo and bat him 8th, but having Frenchy bat 7th is not a good idea. Plus your line-up 1-4 has little power vs righties.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
I’m just not huge on this line-up. You have 3 leadoff hitters 1-3..or whatever Castillo is, but you get my point there. Between Frenchy, Wright, and Pena, you’re talking a boat load of k’s. Would I b very content with that line-up? sure, but I think it has alot of problems.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
Since Figgins has a higher OBP than Reyes, I think you’d be fine with Figgins in the one spot.
I can see why one would still prefer Reyes in the leadoff spot because of his extra base power.
However, for that same reason I think Reyes could hit 3rd just fine. And perhaps him not running as much would save some wear and tear on his hammies.
I don’t see why Reyes “cannot bat third.”
trs86
8/10/2009-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
I think Reyes hitting 3rd would stop holding him back. I would like to see what he does when we release him from the just get on mode.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
Is reyes batting lead off holding the mets back? No, it’s lack of power and ability to drive in runs when it counts. Jose Reyes is valuable for his legs. When he is on base he wreaks havoc on the base paths and toys with pitchers, distracting them from the hitter and thus a huge advantage for our 2-4 hitters. Sure batting 3rd might work. But I don’t see Reyes as a major power threat against righties. His BA is already on the lower side, and as you continue to tell me TR, Reyes is not clutch, so why have a non clutch hitter in charge of driving in runs? In my opinion reyes is more valuable trying to get on base than he is trying to drive in runs. Plus his sb’s will go down if he bats 3rd.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
Did I say holding the METS back? I said holding Reyes back. Imagine if the Marlins hit Hanley lead off and told him to shorten his swing and just get on. Now is Jose Hanley? Most likely not but I would like to give him the chance. As for his legs? Who knows if they will ever be the same.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
And the point is with that lineup he does NOT get on base as much as Figgins or Castillo.
whataputz
8/10/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
If the Mets get figgins which I doubt will even happen, I would want to see a linep like this.
Reyes Figgins Beltran Pena Wright Francour Santos/Thole Castillo Pitcher. Yes, it neutralizes Castillo to some degree, but who knows what he will be next year, plus
I’d rather neutralize Castillo than to bat reyes 3rd.
Hell..why not try Murphy as a catcher…that’s half serious, but why the heck not? he’s got the body and work ethic.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Only problem is catcher is the MOST difficult position to convert to. One would think Murphy would be 32 before he would be ready. LOL.
As for the Reyes 3rd part, I am just curious. Maybe he blossoms as a hitter. If not it’s not like you can’t move him back.
prismo
8/10/2009-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
Giving a 3 year contract to Harden could be suicide though. Here are his games started by year starting with his first (attempted) full year in the bigs:
2004 – 31
2005 – 19
2006 – 9
2007 – 4
2008 – 25
2009 – 19 (on pace for 28)
Let’s face it, saying this guy can’t stay healthy is a gross understatement.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
I know, but there are not many options at all Prismo for a true #2 type starter. If you take Lackey instead then you get Murphy at 1B and no power hitter.
jaded1983
8/10/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Murphy doesnt have “power” but neither does anyone else on the team. Sheff (with his 500+ career homers) currently leads the Mets with 10 bombs. Murphy at 7 is not too far off.
I’m not saying he is going to start cranking them out next year, but he is hitting them relative to everyone else on the 2009 mets….my honest opinion is it would be a mistake to replace a cheap, in house option for 1B. Get that power bat in LF, and let murphy progress next year. He deserves a shot at first starting next year. We arent going to be WS contenders next year anyway, might as well keep him as a “stop gap” for 2010 while we wait for Ike or the 2010 FA class
trs86
8/10/2009-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Who is that power bat in LF though? That’s too easy to say. And I for one have NOT given up on friggin next year so I am offended by that comment. LOL.
sabermetrician
8/10/2009-2:16pm at 2:16 pm (UTC -4)
Jaded-
Why do you say Murphy “deserves” a shot at starting at first next year? I don’t know what he’s done to deserve that. Maybe I can be persuaded, but you’ll have to convince me.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
I am not sure why he deserves it either. I am fine with going with him there if that mythical power hitting LF falls in our laps.
sabermetrician
8/10/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
Ok here is another option. It will most likely cost a little more in prospects but same in cash
Trade for Crawford and Overbay. Crawford would take more in prospects than Pena but Overbay would be a salary dump. Again a 1 year solid player.
Lineup
Crawford, Castillo, Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Overbay, Frenchy, Santos/Morales.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Murphy may be able to do what Overbay does.
I think your initial instinct that TB would dump Pena’s salary is probably the right one. Trading Crawford is probably their worst case scenario.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
I think they trade both. I think they try and extend Crawford, fail and trade him. Could wait until the deadline though. I would. At worst you offer him arbitration at the end of 2010.
As for Murphy and Overbay, he MAY but I see no signs right now that Murphy can have an OPS of .850 or even over .800.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Overbay hasn’t done that for a few seasons either. There’s still time for him to fall short this season…
trs86
8/10/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
LOL true. But he is still more likely to do it than Murphy.
tkfj
8/10/2009-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
Morales and Figgins are interesting moves that I like. Bleh to Pena(Mr. HR or nothing), Harden for 3 years especially with this teams injury issues, and Beimel for 3 mill a year.
Blaylock is an FA, pretty sure he wouldnt want to leave Texas but he’d be my ideal 1B. Save money that we could spend on a more efficient SP or BP arm.
The key to the offseason is being smart with whatever money we have, no more Redding contracts and giving closers 54.5 mill.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I like Blalock too. I don’t think he will be very expensive. If you want to trade out Pena for Blalock I am fine with that.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
However, I am confused by your statement on closer. I don’t think he got that much. LOL. And to that point who else would you have gotten for closer?
tkfj
8/10/2009-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
My bad. It is 54.5 mill if we pick up the option. As much as I curse and complain about KRod he is solid, I wont call him All-World but he is solid.
My gripe is that even with 2007 and 2008 and BP implosions, I dont believe the right way to spend our offseason money was to blow it all on a closer. I’m sorry, but IMO there are certainly more important positions than closer and you can certainly find an effective one for less money. If the Mets are really hurting because of Madoff, they need to spend their money more efficiently.
tkfj
8/10/2009-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Of course hindsight is 20-20, so I cant complain too much.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
Such as who? Krod was actually a bargain as 99% of even the experts would say. I can’t think of a hole that was more gaping than closer at the end of last season.
JoeR
8/10/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
A part of me still wants to give this core a chance when healthy. maybe Delgado comes back and proves he still has it. IDK but if thats the case i hope Murphy heats up and increases his trade value. Im sure we are looking at Murphy as our starting 1B. Im not too pleased with that but oh well.
Wow in 06′ I forgot we had the best record in baseball along with the Yanks. 97 wins and won the division by more than 10. What a shame, I mean even this year if healthy we would have ran away with this division imo. Phils are barely 10 over….oh well so who are we getting???
prismo
8/10/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
Criticisms aside, very nice post TRS. If Harden stays healthy it would be a great off-season. Probably better than whatever crud Omar will come up with!
trs86
8/10/2009-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, Harden worries me the most. I thought about Kazmir as I think he will be traded. But his injury issues and even more expensive contract made me change my mind. Lackey I think will make 15-17 a year so he’s out. Bedard is injured all the time and currently. At least Harden has been decently healthy for 2 years. After that it’s guys like Millwood. I don’t think Pinero gets out of St. Louis.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
Pena is not a good idea for this team. do you really want Pena Frenchy and Wright striking out a combined 400 times?
As for Harden, that’s the last thing the Mets need. Another huge pitching investment that’s always injured.
I like Crawford alot, but idk how attainable he is. Plus batting Reyes third could be pretty detrimental to his game.
JoeR
8/10/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely ridiculous to think about Reyes batting 3rd. Typically your best hitter resides in that spot. Maybe you could mask that with power but Reyes doesnt have much of that at all on a consistent basis. Plus he hasnt mastered the lead-off spot yet lets not move a man who isnt all there mentally to a knew spot and expect more from him. A disaster in the making. I like Crawford alot and like him 10x MORE AT CITI. I can live with Reyes and Crawford 1-2 in lineup.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
K’s are overrated. Who is the other huge pitching investment that is always injured? Pedro? He’s gone.
And Whata, I am actually pleased that you dislike my plan. It makes me think it has more merit. LOL.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Well let me first counter that by saying fu** you.
But anyway back to my point…your team is a very good team. I’d be happy with that as a team. I think signing Harden is a terrible move. After all the stuff this team has gone through, is it really a good idea to sign a guy that will most certainly get hurt, and bank on him as our 2 pitcher.
You may think K’s and rbi are overrated stats, but last time I checked the objective of the game is to drive in runs, and striking out does not do anything to help the runs come in.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
Man take a joke bud. I did not say that RBI’s are overrated. I just think K’s are from lower RBI spots. To me a 6-7 hitter that drives in runs you can overlook K’s. Even with Frenchy and Pena’s K’s they still drive in a lot of runs. Harden as I said is the one that worries me the most. In my plan we would still have Niese/Maine and Parnell to fill in. Harden however has been decently healthy for 2 straight years but maybe you get him for 2 years instead. I don’t know how the market will be for him. I just think Lackey will be the Lowe of this year and get grossly overpaid.
whataputz
8/10/2009-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
What? All I said was fu** you.
Do the Mets even have the money to take in Figgins Harden and Pena?
Its just weird to me to build a team with two guys Reyes and Figgins who are huge threats on the basepaths and castillo who is older but can still use his legs well, beltran and wright can run as well, so you have so much speed, but you also want 3 (4 including the pitcher) guys that strike out all the time? Its just weird is all I’m saying. I just think if you’re going with so much speed, you want guys that put the ball in play, especially in this cavern.
Who knows what Lackey will be, but he’s less a gamble then harden in my mind, and the Mets need stability.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
Well that was kind of my plan. Have great speed 1-5, high OBP guys 1-5 and RBI guys 6-8.
whataputz
8/10/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
Alright, but whatever your opinion on k’s might be, this 1-5 whatever arrangement…..reyes figgins beltran pena wright (throw in castillo at the top it depends) is a phenomenal amount of speed and power. We play in such a huge cavernous stadiums where you can run for miles on balls hit in the gaps. In a park like this where its hard to hit hr’s, you really don’t want to load your line-up with guys that k all the time. Especially with that much speed, all you have to do is keep putting the ball in play, and you;re going to score so many runs. It is counterproductive to have 3 guys that k so much.
ceetar
8/10/2009-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Well, Figgins is one example of why it’s obvious guys like Sherman don’t actually know much more than us, and aren’t any smarter. He’s a fine player that would actually fits with the Mets offense fairly well, but I don’t believe that that is the way to go. Pena is your answer to Delgado’s missing power (I’m basically comparing the team to 2008) but
I think we’re better off keeping Murphy at first who looks like over a full season could have a couple of home runs and play well and looking for a power LF bat. Preferably a solid guy (not Dunn) that can keep the Ks down, advance runners, play acceptable defense, etc. An athlete power bat over a strict Delgado style power bat, although I know that’s hard to find. I’d also look to upgrade RF, because chances are Francoeur reverts to the crappy player he is, and we can’t bank on Fernando Martinez being ready in April, or even June.
As for the rotation, if we got a solid manager/pitching coach in here that could help Pelfrey make strides, and regulate Perez a bit, I’d look for more of a Livan type guy. Younger though. A guy that’ll throw innings, compete, stay healthy, and be reliable. I don’t know if Harden is that guy. If we have faith on our guys, maybe Ben Sheets? Who knows about Maine..if he can stay healthy, if anyone actually knows what the issue is.. Maybe Niese can step in later on or in Spring even if he’s healthy.
The catcher idea seems fine, although I’d get a better backup than Santos who’s having a crappy career year. Jose Molina maybe?
I wouldn’t be upset if they released Sheff now, never mind not resigning him.
Really, things aren’t that desperate. Injuries are the major culprit. Get a better manager, hope the front office can be more organized and on the same page, and hope we don’t have the injury bug again. Replace Delgado’s power, go back to being an aggressive team like in ’06, swipe more bases, push the envelope, take third more, etc. in ’06 Pitchers had to worry no matter who was on base, not just Reyes.
JoeR
8/10/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
I agree replacing Delgado’s power is A MUST!! But that leaves us back to the past 3 years where we have been one dynamic offensive player short. We need 2 big hitters but maybe picking one up at the trade deadline, if we are back in the thick of things, would work fine. That leaves us with a real deal number 2 starter that is a must to compliment Johan!
trs86
8/10/2009-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
Problem is still Ceetar that the guy that you want for LF does not exist unless you pay up for Holliday or Bay and that’s not happening. We have too many holes to mess with Francoeur. If he struggles we just have to hope Fmart is for real or upgrade that spot during the season. As for Santos having a crappy year, all catchers for the most part have crappy years. I am not concerned that much with hitting stats there as long as they are cheap and play decent defense. We can’t go with the pitching staff we have now and be competitive.
ceetar
8/10/2009-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Santos doesn’t play good defense. he can’t run. He’s having a crappy _career_ year. I know he’s a backup, but you prefer a guy like Castro that’s going to have some power threat. or a guy like Molina that’s going be + defensively.
I’d pay for Bay or Holliday. Murphy cheap at first. I’m not sure what the options for a Francoeur upgrade are, but I’d at least investigate.
We don’t have as many holes as you think. And I think Pelfrey is an excellent pitcher who is still finding himself (and Warthen isn’t helping in my mind. I’d really like some forward thinking coaches and managers, which is where I feel the Wilpons fail the most. too old-fashioned) I think Perez, again with the right guidence, could be fine. Another starter is a target, but I’m not sure it has to be a 2+ guy. You want a guy that’s going to give you a year like Maine and Perez in ’07. Win about 15 games, pitch well, approach 200 innings. The bullpen’s pretty good. Maybe Parnell actually ends up in the rotation, and you sign another handful of relievers and see what sticks.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
Those stats you just described are a #2 LOL. As for Santos I don’t think his defense is below average and Castro? Have you seen his stats for the year? Which Molina are you referring too? The one in SF? I like him but did you see what we did to him this year? I think you stick with Frenchy, I see no way you can upgrade on him for what he is making. Like I said you will have Pagan and Fmart to hold the fort if he tanks and you can upgrade at the ASB.
But you keep going back to the rotation
If we go with Johan, Pelfrey, Perez, Niese and Parnell/other #5 I think we are DONE.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
You shouldn’t think we are done. If that’s our rotation WE ARE DONE. Thats Johan, a number 3 pitcher, a scrub leech to our organization for the next 2 years, a kid coming off a big injury, and a ?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Ben Sheets, anyone?
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
lol i know you’re joking, but if noone else wants him and he can be had for peanuts, why the heck not?
ceetar
8/10/2009-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
I figure Maine is probably the injured+ player on the team. You can sign Sheets as a replacement for Maine, but in either case you need a solid backup option for this. I wouldn’t have both of them in the plans.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I could handle resigning Maine for cheap and taking a gamble on Sheets. But those are secondary to getting a real #2.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I would sign sheets for little, make him audition in ST, and if he still has the goods its a good deal. I’m not saying sign Sheets as the answer and pray he does well, but as a cheap risk, why not? Still, if sheets is signed we should have 5 other competent pitchers, but it’s a good risk is all I’m saying.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, having a competition between Niese, Maine and Sheets for #5 is perfect. However, expecting any of them to be top of the rotation is very risky and Omar like.
udontmesswthejohan
8/10/2009-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
I know it doesn’t seem all that appealing, but maybe at least some thought/consideration has to be given to re-signing Delgado to a reasonably priced contract at one year. He takes the one year deal in order to showcase himself for one more big pay day, and the Mets plug him in at first and then look to add a power bat in LF and SP. I don’t think Holliday is leaving STL and he won’t be cheap, but I think he is a heck of a player and at least worth looking in to.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I think Holliday will cost a LOT to get him out of St. Louis. He fits perfectly there. I would rather overbid on Bay than to pay Holliday 4/80 or something.
As for Delgado, I thought about it. If he would take something like 6M but much over that and I think it’s wasted money as I think he will get injured again and we have no idea how much his power will take a hit after this last surgery.
udontmesswthejohan
8/10/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah he does fit very nicely for them. I only mention Delgado because when healthy IMO, he is still capable of putting up numbers that are going to be equal to or better than Pena’s. It’s certainly not a “sexy” move as most people understandbly want to move on from the last couple of years, but the truth of the matter is that his output is hard to replace. They could then concentrate on other areas. Just a thought.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Question is do you go with Delgado for 8 million with injury questions or Pena for 10M who is younger and healthy and if I remember correctly plays better defense?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
LF – Crawford
1B – Overbay
C – Molina
trs86
8/10/2009-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
I can go with that, but you are not playing by the rules unless you plan on not getting a pitcher OR Molina playing for free.
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
crawford – 10M
overbay – 7M
molina – 6M
vazquez – 10M
That’s 33M + 92M = 125M + Arb salaries.
Or you take a flyer on guys like Bedard, Sheets, Harden.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t use 92 we have too many contract raises AND Arbi raises. 27M that I added put us at 139.75 LOL.
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
the 92 includes contract raises, but not arbitration raises.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
Also are you trading with the Braves for Vazquez?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
yup, they seem to have too many:
Lowe
Jurrjens
Vazquez
Kawakami
Hanson
Hudson
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
I like the idea of trading for Javy.
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
gracias, now what’ll it take?
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:43pm at 4:43 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, it was your idea!
I’m guessing there would be no shortage of competition for his services… so probably quite a bit for a reliable workhorse who strikes hitters out.
I’m sure we have to start with Niese (who pitched well against Atlanta last year) and then add a couple more pretty good prospects.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, I can see them taking a shine to Bobby Parnell as a late game power arm.
Maybe Parnell and two lower level minor leaguers we don’t know of yet that will become big stars because the Braves org doesn’t have its head up its arse and the Mets front office does.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
Do you think the Mets and Braves work out an interdivision trade of name players?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-5:17pm at 5:17 pm (UTC -4)
could Maine give them the protection against a Hudson injury?
trs86
8/10/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, IF the Braves and Mets ever did make that kind of trade I would imagine the Braves would want Parnell, Mejia/Holt and Reed?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Next yr, Lowe makes 15M, Hudson 12M, Vazquez 11.5M, Kawakami 6.7M, Jurrjens .45M. Gotta figure they get rid of one of the expensive pieces, Hudson or Vazquez.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
I would expect them not to pickup Hudson’s option. He would be too much of an injury issue for 12M, only has a 1M buyout. Maybe he would be an option for the Mets as a FA?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
really? I’d think with their great rotation, they could take a chance on Hudson, especially since: 1) he’s got ace stuff and 2) the contract is reasonable. Hudson or Vazq is fine by me.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
You think they pay him 12M considering he has not pitched in over a year?
trs86
8/10/2009-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
I mean at this point Ben Sheets is more of a sure thing.
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
he’ll be activated after two more starts, so they’ll have a chance to see what he’s got.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:34pm at 5:34 pm (UTC -4)
True, I could see them moving Vasquez AND not picking up Hudson’s contract.
You are forgetting they need a spot for Hanson who is basically free.
I expect them to trade Vasquez for a hitter. Problem is we don’t have one.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:38pm at 5:38 pm (UTC -4)
Braves need a LF AND a RF. Conveniently we also have lesser or no players in those spots. Braves don’t have the money just to go get one but have prospects. We have the money but no prospects.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-5:51pm at 5:51 pm (UTC -4)
Braves also like Kris Medlen but I doubt they’d go with Hanson and another rookie in their rotation next year.
Hey, Church has been pretty good for Atlanta: .278 .400 .444.
Maybe they don’t need two corner outfielders!
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-5:52pm at 5:52 pm (UTC -4)
that would leave Lowe, Jair, Kawakami, Hanson and ?
sounds like ur proposing a threesome. We get Vazq, they get OFer, other team gets prospects. Sweet!
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
Also, Chone figgins plays many positions and is a very good bat, with speed. If he hits the open market, who’s to say the Mets can even afford him? especially if their going after a big power bat and a #2 pitcher.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
Idea was keeping the payroll under 140. I think Figgins gets 7-8M.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
Sign John Lackey and Jason Marquis for the rotation (#2 and #5). Sign Mike Gonzalez or Fernando Rodney for the bullpen.
Sign Josh Bard as a platoon partner for Santos.
Get Creative:
Trade Jon Niese and Fernando Martinez for a top notch LF prospect like Travis Snider.
Trade a B level prospect or two to the Cubs for Jake Fox (1B) or to the Royals for Kila K’uiahe (sp?) or some other blocked hitter to be a stopgap for Davis or to platoon with Murphy.
whataputz
8/10/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
You want to trade the great Fernando “Babe Ruth” Martinez? Who is going to even want him? He’s coming off another huge injury. So is Neise. as usual, Minaya has held onto his mediocre at best prospects for too long and has ruined a chance to bring in top talent.
I really want Lackey. The problem is Marquis is going to rack up alot of wins this year, and might be in the multi year contract before I die business.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on Marquis, too late on that one too. He will get more than Harden I am betting. He did a great job having a career year at the right time. And I think Fmart still has decent value, Niese I think has none right now. Maybe next year mid year at best.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
You can change the names accordingly re the prospects.
But the GM needs to be creative whether that means trading Niese, Holt, Havens or Tejada for the right fit.
If Toronto doesn’t shed Rios or Wells, Snider might be a chip they can move for multiple prospects at positions of need such as SS (Tejada or Havens) or SP (Niese, Holt, etc.).
trs86
8/10/2009-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe, depends on what they do with Halladay. If they trade him they will want pitchers you would think. Also Snider is no sure thing either.
.242 .292 .394 .686
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
No minor leaguer is. But I sure wouldn’t rule out a 21 year old guy with a .301 .380 .530 career minor league record and a current .320 .417 .653 line in AAA based on a 99 at bat sample.
When any Mets prospect has a line like that let me know.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
True, but we all know cases of players with those numbers that don’t translate for some reason. Two things though, wouldn’t that type of guy command top prospects AND can we afford to have question marks in LF and 1B?
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see any solutions for LF or 1B that aren’t question marks.
Even Holliday is a question mark given his performance early on in Oakland (is this just a hot streak in St. Loo?)
I’m just advocating a move for now and for the future.
Guys like Niese and Tejada may have greater value for someone else than they do for us and given their strong minor league seasons we can strike while the iron is hot.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
But to what degree? You don’t think that Murphy and Snider are more question marks than Pena and Figgins?
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Marquis is worth a multi-year deal but only for the right money.
He’ll give you 30+ starts every year. We really should have gotten him this year.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on that. I still see him at LEAST getting 3/30. I don’t see how he does not.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Now my turn.
Lackey 16M
Marquis 12M
Bard 1.5
Gonzalez, would he not want to close some where? His numbers have rebounded. 3.5 this year so 4M?
Wanny plan 33.5
TRS plan 27
Bob Barker says you overbid. Winner TRS LOL.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
Marquis will not get $12m. He’s not fooling anyone with his career year numbers and still has time to crash down to earth.
Lots of guys walked home unhappy last year from free agency.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
Garland got 8-10, you don’t think Marquis will? Come on Perez got 12, Loshe got 11. Only real bargain for that type was Wolf because of his injury history.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Perez is an under 30 y.o. lefty who throws in the low 90s.
Marquis is an over 30 y.o. right handed innings eater and nothing more.
Perez got paid for his potential.
Garland got a one year deal. And had won more of his crappily pitched games in the past than did Marquis.
I’ll cut the Mike Gonz signing and sign another reliever so that I can get under your salary cap. You didn’t address the pen anyway.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
Well, he may not have addressed the pen to your satisfaction but to be fair he did address it:
Nieve
Green
Stokes
Parnell
Feliciano
Joe Beimel
Krod
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
I forgot about Beimel (whom I hate).
trs86
8/10/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, we know. But you can’t say his numbers are not better this season.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
They are. But while we’re here advocating that the GM make smart moves, I am not going to do the opposite and suggest that our GM be fulled by an aberration.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe but his numbers are very similar to what they were in 2006 and 2007. Maybe 2008 was the aberration.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
Yes I did, Beimel for 2.5.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
So do you actually see Marquis getting less than he made this year?
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
Possibly.
Unless the Yankees are interested in a player, that player is not get what he hopes for.
That was pretty much the rule this past offseason when guys like Abreu, Dunn and even K-Rod came home much poorer than what they had hoped.
Marquis was greatly overpaid at the end of his Cubs contract. I don’t know that someone else will give him that kind of deal again.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see a guy who is putting up these numbers 12-8 3.65 ERA 150 innings and 1.28 WHIP at age 30 getting less than he made this year. Lohse got 4/44 and he had not even been as good as Marquis.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
Let’s see Marquis’s numbers at the end of the year and what the demand for his services are.
Marquis will be 32 next season and this season is the only one on which he can hang his hat to justify something more than 4-5 starter money.
He is a proven average to below average ML pitcher having a good 2/3 of a season.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lohseky01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/marquja01.shtml
Tell me which one has proven to be better?
trs86
8/10/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
6 years in a row of 11 wins or more for Marquis. Lohse had only had 3 in 9 seasons.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Lohse signed after his age 29 season with 15 wins.
Marquis will be signing for his age 32 season during an economic recession.
And again, because one team made a silly move does not mean another one will.
Randy Wolf couldn’t get big money. Lots of guys couldn’t get big money.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Anyway, Marquis for 10m per is probably a safer bet than paying Harden $8m per to sit with John Maine in St. Lucie.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
Lohse signed last offseason. Marquis and Lohse are the same age, unless you count from August to December as big issues.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe, but it does not give us the chance of having a #2 starter because as you said Marquis is a below average MLB pitcher.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
But the contracts would be signed at different ages.
Look Marquis may be get $10m. I don’t know.
But that’s not the point of my suggestion.
The point of my suggestion is to sign 2 starting pitchers, 1 to start in the front (Lackey) and one to shore up the back (Marquis). I don’t pretend to know what the market will dictate for their values. No one saw Bobby Abreu talking a make good deal last year and no one saw K-Rod taking less than 48 million.
And perhaps Marquis wants to come home to pitch in NY.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
TRS –
I believe I suggested we sign Lackey to be the #2 starter.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
True, but you know there is no way in hell the Mets will sign 2 SP. We have to hope they will sign one. Niese/Maine/Nieve will compete for that backend spot if we are lucky. If we are unlucky then Niese and Nieve will be competing and Maine and the crew from this year will be back.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
Besides even if he only gets 10 (his salary for this year) you still did not get under 140. LOL.
stickguy
8/10/2009-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
I’m good with your overall plan. And it really isn’t tha ambitious.
The one guy (that we have debated before) that I am not really interested in (certainly not for LF) is Figgins. Still runs, but no power. I assume your logic is that Pena supplies the pop? But if you are doing that, save $ and play Murphy and get a LF.
THe other red flag? He will be 32 next season, and if the age catches up (as it always does, and that is a prime age) and the wheels go, he has nothing much left.
Now, if he could play 2B, you have something going!
I like the C from the Twins idea, but Thole might make that dedundant. I am fully on board with Pena, and also agree that they will have to roll the dice somewhat on the SP, oping to get a (mostly) full season out of an injury guy. Just have plenty of replacement on hand for when he goes down!
I would rather get 20 starts out of harden and 10 from Neive than 30 out of Garland.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on the Harden part. However Figgins is a great OBP guy regardless of steals. He does have less power than Crawford but provides a lot of the same numbers. Actually has a higher OBP. I guess I view Figgins as Crawford Lite not costing us any prospects and cheaper in price. Also on your point to 2B yes he can play 2B which is part of the overall plan. If Fmart develops then Figgins moves to 2B and Castillo is dumped.
trs86
8/10/2009-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
Also on the Thole part. I thought about him. But you are also assuming that Santos does not return to his previous really crappy numbers days.
whataputz
8/10/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Santos is such a question mark. He’s been great at times and I love his fire. He is also a pretty clutch hitter. He just has a winning aura to him and its a shame he doesn’t have the talent. There has got to be a reason this guy is a rookie. He’s had ridiculous cold streaks. The Mets might be able to live with him if they add bats from other spots. Maybe try a Thole/Santos platoon.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
Thole is not ready though, on offense or defense. That is why I am trading a couple of lower prospects for Morales.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Agree 100% that Thole is not ready on defense based on everything I’ve read about him, but he is proving to be quite good with the bat. He might very well be ready on offense, and we are likely to get a first hand look because I read that he will have to be placed on the 40 man roster to be protected from the rule 5 draft this offseason so there is nothing really preventing the Mets from giving him a September callup.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
He should not be eligible for the Rule 5 draft is he? Has he been in the organization that long?
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
I am trusting Toby Hyde on this one, in the comments of one of his recent threads someone asked him who the Mets Sept callups might be and he suggested of all the “prospects” Thole was most likely due to that reason. He was drafted in 2005.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
Well then yes he would be I guess. How old was he when he was drafted? Anyway he is close so I trust Toby as well.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
Thole turns 23 in October. Isn’t his thing he was only recently converted to catcher from some other position? I believe that’s the case, and why he’s behind defensively, but I’m not sure.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
Nah, they tried to convert him to 1B a little I think but if I remember he was a catcher in HS.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
I have no clue where he played in HS but I just checked his minor league stats and it appears based on games played numbers that he was primarily a 1B until 2008.
Year and games played by position:
05 – 21 1B, 7 C
06 – 18 1B, 8 C
07 – 103 1B, 11 C
08 – 12 1B, 75 C
so ’08 seems to be when the position change took place.
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
Thole was a C in HS.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll assume you’re correct Case so then the question becomes, why did the team play him primarily at 1B for the 1st 3 years of his professional career?
Even being a HS C, he would be behind in his development as a professional C after spending 3 years mostly at 1B.
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
got this from a Binghamton article:
“Let’s explain: Thole was drafted as a catcher out of Breese Mater Dei High School in Breese, Ill., in the 13th round in 2005. But in his first three seasons in the Mets organization, he played primarily first base. He caught in just 26 games in those three seasons.
But last season at St. Lucie, the Mets got off to a brutal start, losing 11 of their first 13 games. So Teufel decided to shake up the lineup, including having Thole start at catcher.”
trs86
8/10/2009-5:05pm at 5:05 pm (UTC -4)
Better question is why did he get so few starts in his first 2 years. 05 because he was drafted, why 06? Injured?
CaseStreet
8/10/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
seems that he was ovewhelmed at 19, so they started to platoon him @ 1B.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
Very creative and thoughtful roster plan overall.
My gut feeling is the Mets aren’t even going to explore the idea of filling 1B from without. I believe they are sold on Murphy (they clearly love the guy) at worst keeping it warm for Ike Davis.
So as you and others have said throughout the thread, although the idea of acquiring power to place in LF may be more difficult to suss out than 1B, I think that’s the way they’re going to go.
Even in their stubbornness or stupidity or whatever it is, they must realize they have many holes to fill this off season, so they will not likely seek to fill one that they believe may well be filled already, which they seemingly think 1B is with Murphy.
One question I haven’t seen come up in the thread is this: what is Tampa’s solution to 1B? They may need salary relief, but they’re not going to take the field with 7 defenders. Do they have someone in place that we can point to as ammo to suggest their willingness to part with Pena?
trs86
8/10/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
Zorbrist? I would think he would be an option. They have other guys who could step in at 2B.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
They absolutely could go that way. I was imagining a scenario in which they bought out Iwamura for $250,000 instead of giving him the $4.25 mil his option calls for and just keeping Zobrist at 2B.
I guess it depends on how much salary relief Tampa is truly looking for. They can save more money keeping Iwamura and Zobrist, but have a better offense by keeping Zobrist and Pena. It will be one of thee many interesting scenarios to watch play out over the next few months.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I think they trade Pena, keep Crawford and trade prospects and Kazmir for a pitcher and hitter. Maybe something with the Jays again or possibly the Giants who will be desperate for a hitter. Redsox might look into Pena as well.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
I suppose Reid Brignac can play 2B.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
I was think Aybar but am I wrong?
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
Aybar would make sense.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
4 errors in 63 chances for a .937 FP at 2B this year for Aybar but his career is .971 so this year could be an anomaly.
If it were my choice, Aybar at 2B & Zobrist at 1B would be my 3rd choice after Zobrist at 2B & Pena at 1B, or Zobrist at 1B & Iwamura at 2B.
Zobrist and Aybar have both been jack-of-all-trades guys for the Rays, expecting both to take starting IF positions next year might be too much.
wannybackstra
8/10/2009-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
Aybar could stand to slim down a bit.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
Not impossible, but his defensive games played in the minors are 570 @ ss and 12 @ 2b and none of those 12 games were this month so they don’t seem to be grooming him for it.
trs86
8/10/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
I can see your point on Murphy, however they have to have a plan for a power hitter for LF then and I don’t think Bay or Holliday are in their plans. That does not leave anyone but Vlad. PLEASE fire Omar.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
What is really scary is how bad the LF market is in 2010 as well. Crawford and Dye and that’s it. Dye at that point would need a walker and chances are Crawford never hits FA and is either resigned by the Rays or traded and signed by someone else.
1B there are options in 2010. Maybe the best idea is still the least likely, go all in for Bay. I don’t see the RSox overpaying him. Maybe 4/60 gets it done. Then we would still have money to get Harden and Beimel.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
Bay is not exactly lighting it up in his walk year either. His BA has gone down every month (except August buy he only 10 August at bats) and he’s hurt. I guess that works in the favor of whoever his new team might be.
trs86
8/10/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, that’s what I am thinking. That and Boston does not have a history of paying more than market value for a player. Unless you count DiceK. I would think they would rather trade for a LF than to commit 4/60 to Bay.
GravediggerHebner
8/10/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
Sort of on that note, the Boston radio guys said this morning that Theo may be looking to trade Dice K this off season.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:04pm at 5:04 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah but who takes that contract. It’s worse than Ollie.
trs86
8/10/2009-5:43pm at 5:43 pm (UTC -4)
What about Millwood, how much will he command this offseason? He has had a great year and if not for one blow up would have an ERA in the 2′s.
rustyjr
8/10/2009-6:39pm at 6:39 pm (UTC -4)
first off alex rios to the white sox
secondly – we won yesterday wheres megam?? !!