“Son, we’d like to keep you around this season but we’re going to try and win a pennant.” Casey Stengel
Here’s what you missed on Monday, August 10, 2009:
- This Day In Mets Infamy With Rusty 8-10-09 by rustyjr
- “Minaya Needs Your Help†Contest Winner by MrNorthJersey
- Draft & Follow 8-10-09 by GravediggerHebner
- How To Fix This Mess With Less than 140M by trs86
- Dollars on the DL by prismo
- Game Thread: Mets (52-59) vs Diamondbacks (50-62) by dirtysanchez
You got something to say? Say it on The Real Dirty Mets Blog!
110 comments
metsfan4decades
8/11/2009-7:26am at 7:26 am (UTC -4)
Considering the availability of FAs this winter (to me the pool is very shallow), coupled with what we need and the very real possibility of $$ considerations with the Wilpons, is anyone else starting to have a bad feeling about 2010?
prismo
8/11/2009-7:42am at 7:42 am (UTC -4)
Yep, I came to the same conclusion only about a week ago. I think it can be done, but Omar would have to have a near-perfect off-season. I think it’s much more likely that he doesn’t at the team will end up with under 90 wins once again in 2010.
But who knows…maybe if this season really does end terribly, the Wilpons will realize that if they want to keep their large fanbase, they have to step it up. Maybe they let Omar increase the payroll to $15o or even $155 mil. If they really cared about winning, they’d do it. I have to think that spending an extra 10-15 mil in the off-season would make the team noticeably better, and lead to increased revenues during the season.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-9:01am at 9:01 am (UTC -4)
Did you read Rubin this morning? He says the Mets figure to have $30 million to spend in the off season. I just can’t see that making much of a difference with this team and all its gaping holes.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/11/2009-08-11_omar_minaya_john_ricco.html
prismo
8/11/2009-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
He didn’t say that at all. He said the Mets have around $30 million coming off the books (net), but the payroll may lower. So Omar might have less than $30 mil this off-season! YIKES!
charlie_s
8/11/2009-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
Yes, I guess that’s true. Worse than I originally made it out to be. This team is in trouble.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-8:54am at 8:54 am (UTC -4)
I’m definitely getting a bad feeling. I know we all bristle at the Yankee comparisons, but the Mets are simply not able to retool on the fly like the Yanks. We are entering another dark period for the Mets. If you look at this teams’ history, it puts together a team that can compete for the division, finishes above .500 for a 3-4 year stretch, peaks (think 1986, 2000, 2006), and then slowly turns back into a sub .500 team. We’re in the down slide of the cycle and it stinks. But, the Mets (or any other team not named the Yankees) aren’t going to spend to break the cycle because they can’t.
JoeR
8/11/2009-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
I disagree. Of course if this Madoff thing is true, and I dont think it is, then we may not be able to retool and be competitive but I think this is a new era and we will stay at the 130-140 million payroll. If that is the case then we will be OK.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
Well, the Yankees retool at will and they spend $60-$70m more than any other team.
My point was to avoid stretches of noncompetitive baseball, the Yankees spend like maniacs (upwards of $200m per season in payroll). At that level, they virtually guarantee they will field a competitive team. The Mets (and everyone else) cannot do that.
The Mets will most likely have enough for one big name player (if there is one) and some bit parts next season. That’s not like adding CC, AJ, Teix the season after not making the playoffs after 14 years (or so) like the Yankees did.
My point stands: the Mets don’t have the payroll flexibility to spend themselves out of this hole. They need better than average replacements for LF, 1B, two starting rotation slots (including a #2), setup man, and at least one more bullpen arm. That’s at minimum six spots on the 25. We are all familiar with VORP by now and we all know what happens when you fill major league roster spots with negative VORP players.
trs86
8/11/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Why do we need better than average replacements for all of those? Do we need a superstar at every position? How many superstars do the Phillies, Braves and Marlins have in their lineups?
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
I knew you were going to say that. If we want the Mets to make the playoffs, we want better than average (note I didn’t say great) players. The Phillies added Ibanez (better than average, not great) to LF. They didn’t make the playoffs in ’07 and ’08 and had a better than average first baseman in Delgado. By definition a #2 starter and setup man are better than average. We need at least average for a #5 starter (it could be Maine).
trs86
8/11/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
I am saying that league average in some spots is fine. We can deal with average LF, Catcher if we get above average at 1B and #2.
Again look at the Phillies roster
Howard above
Utley above
Rollins average
Feliz below average
Ibanez above average
Vicki average
Werth average
Ruiz below average
Thing that we have to watch for is having too many BELOW average players that is what hurt us this year and really even last year. Having so many below average pitchers in the pen.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Fine, we don’t need above average to fill all holes! Happy?
trs86
8/11/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
Yes, because if we do we are screwed. LOL
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
I think you’ve underrated some of those players.
Feliz is about average offensively (7th among NL 3B in OPS with 500 PAs) and is a fantasitc defensive player. It hink he deserves to at least be categorized as average.
Werth (262 .370 .490) is 9th among NL outfielders and Victorino (.312 .377 .467) is 11th among NL outfielders in OPS and both play excellent defense. These guys are both above average.
One thing the Phillies do better than the Mets is play better defense all around the horn.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
I agree with the defense part. I still can’t call Feliz average offensively. I can live with calling Werth and Vicki SLIGHTLY above average. But point still remains league average at some spots does not hurt you. Below average is what hurts.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
AND Feliz is having his best year since 2004, he has plenty of time to drop to career averages. Wasn’t that your line from yesterday?
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Just for reference, a league average hitter in the NL is something like .259 .331 .409 .740 according to Baseball-reference’s team and league standard batting.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Which also points to my you can’t have below average players. LOL.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
It can and most likely will point to whatever you want it to mean.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-8:58am at 8:58 am (UTC -4)
Last night was the first time since the season began that I could have watched the game (or at least a few innings before going to bed) and consciously chose not to. What’s left to see? I can’t really enjoy it right now.
Thank you, NY Mets, for ruining my summer.
JoeR
8/11/2009-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
Haha. Yes its also the first time I put on the game in the last 5 years with NO STRESS. I honestly, and its sad to say, had no cares, no anxiety, no excitement. I did not care if they won or lost. I actually laughed when Pagan threw the ball around the infield. Sad Sad Sad
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
I like the idea of stress-free baseball, but in reality that means your team stinks. Oy.
JoeR
8/11/2009-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
Yes last night I actually was watching the Yankee game and missed the first 2 innings of the game. I just wanted to see and I must admit, although not rooting for the Yanks of course, its nice to see a team battle to the end and come out on top most of the time.
I hope Pelf knows he is fighting for a spot on this team next year. It is put up or shut up time for our guy Big Pelf. Last night I guess we can give him a pass but its time to STOP talking about POTENTIAL and time for CONSISTENT RESULTS!!! Its time to STOP talking about him having all the tools!! Etc, Etc, Etc!!
With that said I believe adding one more big bat and a number 2 starter is all we need to compete in the division. Couple that with HOPEFULLY a trade deadline move for whatever we are lacking the most next year, and i think we will be fine. Of course that is with a healthy Reyes, Wright, Beltran. Braves scare the hell out of me because it looks like they may be close to returning to the top with the same recipe they used in the 90′s!! GREAT starting pitching. Scary stuff. A bat or two and they are right there in the thick of things.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Not to be a downer, but what if what we have seen out of the Big Pelf is consistently *his* results? What if he’s hit his ceiling?
JoeR
8/11/2009-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
Then hopefully he is traded for prospects or he is our number 4 or 5.
trs86
8/11/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
I would for sure look into trading a package of Pelfrey for Fielder but that’s about it. It’s not like having him as a #4 is a bad thing considering his cost. Maybe in a year or two he turns it around and we have that #2. If not we have a cheap #4.
metsfan4decades
8/11/2009-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Get us Fielder. That’s my new mantra.
Yes, and I know it’s not happening…
metsgirl31
8/11/2009-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
But its sure a nice dream to have…
There's Always '10
8/11/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Maybe if we can’t get Fielder, we can get Pitcher, or Hitter.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
Not many guys out there that would be available that I would trade him for. It would have to be an impact player like Halladay, Fielder, AGonz.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
Interesting note in the Daily News article referenced above that since Pelfrey does not have arb eligible service time and his rookie contract will expire after the year, he will be paid only $510k next season.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I was not sure how that would go. I noticed that he was payed about 1.25 last year but that contract ended. I did not know if he would go into arbitration or back to .5. If that is the case then good for the Mets and now you have enough to do your plan from yesterday.
metsfan4decades
8/11/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Well, I watched the whole game and even though we managed to give up 7 runs, the Mets never quit. Tried to battle back, even in the 9th with some nice hitting/runs, but it was just too much to overcome for this team.
Pitching, pitching, pitching. If our SP isn’t going to keep the opposition off the board for the most part, no way are we going to win any games with this offense we have….
udontmesswthejohan
8/11/2009-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
Rubin’s article also discussed the possibility of John Ricco taking over as GM for Omar at some point. He seems to have a solid business/PR background, but is limited when it comes to player evaluations. Rubin also points out that some others who also lacked the player evaluation experience (Cashman, Epstein, etc).
At this point I’m not sure what to think, but the alck of player development experience scares me to some extent because it reminds me of Duquette and that trade that will remain unamed. Point is, is there anyone available who can do both. I mean geez, if we can’t produce a a guy who has business and baseball experience, maybe the terrorists will win.
trs86
8/11/2009-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
They will promote from within, but that does not mean that they won’t replace Ricco’s spot with a great baseball mind. That is what Rubin was saying with the Red Sox and even the Yankees. A veteran mind behind a business man.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
It’s an interesting point. I actually think the GM is a position for a smart person and that means not a baseball guy. Sorry to all the baseball guys, but education, critical thinking, management skills, public speaking ability, and analytical prowess far outweigh the ability to see potential in a ballplayer. You can higher all the dumb baseball guys you want to see the potential and bring it to your desk, but ultimately smart decisions need to made. That’s where analysis comes in to play. I want the smart person to make the ultimate decision.
The decision to trade SK for VZ was two fold: one, the talent evaluators didn’t like SK because they thought he was going to breakdown (which he is) and they really liked VZ. The talent evaluators were wrong. Now, you can make the case that Duquette lacked the ability to contradict talent evaluators because he hadn’t been one. But, you can also make the case that had he been one, he’d come to the same conclusions as the evaluators.
The bottom line for me is the position requires more than talent evaluation. And, a guy like Ricco does have experience analyzing talent with statistics, so it’s not like he’s a neophyte.
But, here’s what I want to know:
What was Ricco’s take on Castillo when Omar wanted to give him that contract? (We’ll probably never know that unless Ricco goes on to become one of the best GMs in history and then writes a book upon retiring.)
trs86
8/11/2009-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
The Castillo contract is really blown out of proportion. It was really only 1 year too long. There were other teams willing to go 3 and Omar went 4. It’s no where near as bad as many of the other contracts given out in baseball. Young, Rios, Wells, Zito, Gullien, Soriano, there are others. Compare Castillo to those and it’s chump change.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
Then some other team should have had him. The discipline should have been there to decide three years was too much, so four is ridiculous.
I mean, seriously, would you have been satisfied with Ricco’s response to an inquiry into his thoughts on the Castillo contract if the response was, well other teams were willing to go as far as three, so we just added another year – even though there were other options at half the price and years? Or, if he said, well look at other huge contracts that have nothing to do with our team, players, and evaluators?
trs86
8/11/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Again, like I said it’s not a big deal though. Castillo has been league average or above this year at 2B and his contract after this year is tradable.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
We’ll see about it being movable – I know that’s been mattsblog’s opinion. But, it was a huge deal last year when the team could have actually made the playoffs and he stunk. It is also a huge deal because the Mets can’t really go out and get a Hudson in the offseason unless they trade Castillo first and he’s got $12m over two years going with him. (It has been very good that he’s played fairly well this year to increase his trade value a bit, but he’s a year older now.)
trs86
8/11/2009-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
True but because it’s only 12M if you want you can throw in 4M and the receiving team gets Castillo after a productive year for 4M a year.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I thought of that, but we do have that pesky budget problem and we would conceivably be paying a Hudson a nice chunk of change. Really, we want it off the books.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, if you lets say could still get Hudson or Figgins to play 2B for 8 a year then you would have 1 season of 12M. Maybe that is worth it?
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Maybe. It is doubling the commitment to Castillo for Hudson. I guess it would depend on what you get back for Castillo. But, truly what could you expect? Maybe we take nothing more than a single A low-level prospect for him and insist on the trading team taking all the salary commitments.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
I actually think Figgins is the better guy to go after but regardless I can’t see either getting more than 3/24. It really depends on how Tejada develops.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Why all the Luis hate? Last I checked a .395 OBP was a pretty good thing.
And whatever extra you think Figgins would bring offensively comes with atrocious defense at 2B.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Yeah maybe, I think the idea Wanny is to piss you off. LOL.
Nah the idea is that Castillo will not be healthy next year. But who knows if that is true?
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Who knows if anyone will be healthy next season?
Castillo was healthy this season, if not for a minor fluke injury, after dedicating himself to get into shape.
He’s signed for two more years at $12m.
Figgins, according to you, will require twice that much money.
I just don’t see the benefit of paying more money to replace a guy with roughly the same type of offensive production and far less defensive production.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Again, we said it to piss you off Wanny. LOL. You don’t listen.
That being said Figgins ups Castillo by 50 points in OPS.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Now granted I can’t use defensive stats much because they are mostly all garbage anyway, however it looks like their 2B stats are very similar to what Castillo has done this and last year.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
I thought that 50 points in OPS didn’t mean much when we were discussing Frenchy and Church?
Here, it should mean even less to you than it did then because you’re talking about a guy with no extra base power compared to a guy with very very little.
So for twice the money, you still have the same problem in your lineup and a guy who can’t field up the middle.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
You are focusing on 1 year. I have Figgins signed for around 3/21 to 3/24. That is not twice as much per year as Castillo. Touche about Church and Frenchy but again those are diff. spots in the order than Castillo. I still think RBI/C is a great stat for a #7 hitter. By the way Figgins has twice as many extra base hits as Castillo.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Well if you consider a 3.4 RF/G and 4.5 RF/G similar…
And Figgins’ -8.2 career UZR is still worse than Castillo’s -6.8 of this season and considerably lower than he is +1.9 for his career.
Not to mention his lack of experience at the position, having played just over 100 games there for his career and only about 9 a year over the last few seasons.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
24 million is twice as much as 12 million.
You’re planning to bat Figgins seventh??
You can have the last word here.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Again Wanny it’s just diff perspectives. Some will want a shake up. I am fine with Figgins for LF and then if Castillo goes down we have a built in 2B. Either way I have no desire to debate fielding stats, something that I am not sure are anything more than a joke to start with. You know I don’t like fielding stats and have said that way before this discussion.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
LOL, NO I never said Figgins 7th. I was pointing towards the difference in Church and Frenchy and how I thought RBI/C was more important in the 7 spot. Figgins or Castillo would most likely bat 2nd.
And you can’t use 12 and 24 as twice as much unless you are only paying Figgins 2/24 and getting him for free the last year.
udontmesswthejohan
8/11/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
You make a fair point. I guess my question is why can’t we find a guy who can do both of these things? I mean they are out there, Billy Beane may be the most obvious example, but there have to be other guys out there who are able to handle both aspects of the job (i.e. baseball evaluation and business/pr part of the job).
With regard to the SK/VZ trade, you say:
“Now, you can make the case that Duquette lacked the ability to contradict talent evaluators because he hadn’t been one.”
And I would tend to agree with that assesment. Let’s forget that SK has had injury problems and the book is still more or less out on him, but say what you wan’t about Omar, but there is no way in heck that he makes that trade. Not even on his worst day. I think that is the difference between a “baseball guy” and a hybrid type of guy. I guess I’m just a bit gun shy. I would rpefer to deal with the awkward news conferences rather than the horrible trades.
Again, this is all speculation, Ricco may in fact be a great talent evaluator for all we know.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
You mean the same Billy Bean that gives away millions for Giambi, Frank Thomas, Mike Piazza, Nomar, Cabrerra, etc?
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, it’s hard to know what really went down during the SK trade or what Ricco knows about TE. But, this much is fact:
1. Kazmir has broken down like they said he would (but after a WS appearance)
2. Zambrano was damaged goods before the trade and he never regained his form
I 100% agree that Omar would never make the deal, but it doesn’t mean Ricco would because Duquette did and the two guys have been compared for not having scouting backgrounds.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Yeah what people forget is that Zambrano if healthy would have been pretty damn good. Not spectacular but #4 starter solid. His numbers against interleague were very good at the time of the trade.
udontmesswthejohan
8/11/2009-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Ugghhhh. I was at his last game when he just ran off the field. To this day my girlfriend who was at the game with me still asks “Whatever happened to that guy”, and I still get pissed off thinking about it.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, like I said, more bad luck with injury there. I am not going to look for his stats but in something like 20+ starts vs. interleague he had a low 2′s ERA. Who knows what would have happen if he was healthy.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
Wasn’t that just one of the strangest things you’ve ever seen? I remember watching it on TV and replaying it over an over again.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Yup, they all focus on the negative, but VZ was actually good. He was 35-27 for an awful Tampa team in his career before the trade. He could have been a lock middle rotation guy and SK was years away and an injury waiting to happen.
trs86
8/11/2009-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
Come on guys I know it’s hard but lets stop the gloom and doom for a few minutes. IF the Mets keep the same payroll as this year, and I believe they will because the backlash would be terrible if they cut payroll, then we will be right back in the thick of things again. We hopefully will have Reyes and Beltran back and some new cast members to support them. 30 million in this market can get you a lot. I counted yesterday we have about 27M to spend if we keep payroll the same, assuming some players will be brought back like Stokes, Sullivan, Reed, etc. 27M if spent wisely can go a long way. I know some of you did not like my plan yesterday but what it does show is how much you can change a team with 27M WITHOUT trading top prospects. Based on speculation Pena, Harden, Figgins, and Beimel were all brought in for that 27M. You want to take it other directions? How about Lackey and Crawford that’s about 27M. How about Kazmir, Pena and Figgins? You can do that too. So while you guys want to write off 2010, I think 27M is plenty. Now if Reyes and Beltran are not healthy? Then we will have to address that and things may not go as planned. But at this point that is not worth worrying about. Did we think all these players would get injured this year?
metsfan4decades
8/11/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Good points.
I’m not ready to write off 2010. Just starting to get a bit nervous about it. I think it has more to do with the big question marks of Beltran, Reyes, even Maine coming back healthy. Because if they do not, I believe we’ll be in trouble. Our speculation on trades/acquistions is counting on at least Reyes and Beltran coming back healthy….
trs86
8/11/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
I am not concerned about Maine, to me the Mets have to add another pitcher with or without Maine. If Maine comes back then he becomes the #5.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. They must add a strong number two to slot in front of Ollie and Pelfrey. The number five starter is always bad. Even for the big, bad Yankees.
They also need either a power first baseman or a power left fielder. I would also think it might be time to get a starting second baseman because can we really expect another injury-free season out of Castillo next year? Boy, wouldn’t it be great to have a stud second baseman prospect right about now?
trs86
8/11/2009-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
That is why I want Figgins for LF. He protects 2B against disaster. Then we have to upgrade 1B though.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, is there anyway to teach Murph how to hit with power in the off season?
trs86
8/11/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Send him to camp with Sheff, Ortiz, Manny and lots of needles.
GravediggerHebner
8/11/2009-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know of any sure fire way, but I do know when the person you’re teaching is a 24 year old with 1 day of AAA experience, there is room to grow and learn.
Whatever happened to patience and nurturing minor leaguers? When did Met fans become “he didn’t instantly become great, dump him!” fans?
trs86
8/11/2009-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
Nah, I don’t want to dump him Grave. Maybe he needs more time in the minors. Maybe we brought him up a year early. If the Mets had done what they should have and gotten Abreu then Murphy would have gotten some more time to learn in AAA.
stickguy
8/11/2009-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
Of course you have to assume they come back healthy (until you have a reason they wont), but for sure they need a better back up plan!
You also cant lose 2 of your top players for 2/3+ of the season and expect to be very good. If it happens again, won’t be pretty.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:12am at 10:12 am (UTC -4)
Yeah we really need to upgrade the SS depth. I think for Beltran if we have Pagan, Reed and Sullivan we can SURVIVE IF we get decent players for LF and 1B.
stickguy
8/11/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
hopefully some of the minor league talent develops enough to be viable stop gaps if needed.
Would rather see someone like Tejada or Havens knocking at the door in AA or AAA get called up than a washed up retread like Berroa.
Just throwing those 2 names out as legit ML prospects that aren’t ready now, but in a year or 2 could be. Those are the kind of guys the mets need mroe of.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I think Tejada could be ok around ASB next year but not sure that would be enough to get by. I was thinking more like a guy LIKE DeRosa or Figgins that would be able to pick up the slack on offense.
stickguy
8/11/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
Even if the Mets do “nothing” in th eoff season, they should be better, by a lot, next year. And nothing is in quotes, since they will be replacing at least 1/4 to 1/3 of the roster regardless, but it may not be with “A” level talent.
Why? Just getting Reyes and Beltran back will be a huge addition. And if they don’t come back, then it is highly unlikely that any other possible moves will make them a WS contender.
So look at it this way: Posters are screaming that the FO (I just can’t say Omar at this point) needs to make some big deals.
OK, how about this one: Mets trade Anderson Hernandez and ANgel Pagan for Jose Reyes and Carlos Beltran. Think that makes them better?
throw in the possibility of getting a healthy Maine back for nothing (no guarantee, but hopefully he finally manages to rehab his shoulder enough to pitch normally again).
Just that might not make them a favorite for the WS, but it at least makes them a competitive team, and a couple of other moves (for a solid SP and at least 1 good bat) can be as good as any team in the NL. Sure, might take a little luck (breakout year or good health), but that is the same for nearly every team anyway.
I just don’t buy this as being the start of a decline into the late 70s/early 80s again.
I know it is hard for met fans to accept, but it is possible to have a bad year without being guaranteed 10 more terrible ones to follow.
Look at the Dodgers over the last few years. Soem good years sandwiched around a terrible one, right?
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
I guess I just worry that Beltran’s knee is cooked and Maine will never regain his form. It is very likely that Beltran misses next year if you believe all the reports about microfracture surgery. He’s the best player on the team.
Urgh, truth is I have no faith in the FO to get anything right.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
NO reports have said that he will, they have just speculated. Seems interesting that all these reporters know more than the guy in Colorado that specializes in Microfracture surgery who said it was not needed. I am done speculating.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
fair enough.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
And as I said if the Mets cut payroll significantly then the Wilpons better be ready for a firestorm.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Then I would have to start printing up those t-shirts I priced the other day for sure (Mr. Wilpon…Sell the Team)
udontmesswthejohan
8/11/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I agree. Getting back Beltran and Reyes not only dramatically improves the team, but also makes DW that much better as well. Look, even with those guys, we will have holes, but we are still better than the post 2000 teams IMO.
It’s difficult to do because we were so close, but we need to do as a fan base is forget 2006 and move forward.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Maybe you are right. Maybe we just played WAY above our heads in 2006. It did take a lot of guys having near career years.
But yeah those guys back with a true #4 hitter changes things. So what if Wright really is the .325 15 HR guy instead of the .300 35 HR guy? That still makes him a good player. Maybe you have to change his spot in the lineup? Maybe he hits 2nd even but again it’s about who we put around them.
stickguy
8/11/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
and for all the dump pelfrey advocates, if this piece from the Rubin article is correct, he is going nowhere (remember, cheap and controllable!)
-lost the copy, but to summarize, pelf makes 3millthis year on his initial contract, but is not eligible for arb this off season, so wil likely only make about 500K in 2010.
Maybe the mets hsould just invest a few $ in a pitching coach that has a clue to teach some of these young guys the missing pitch?
trs86
8/11/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Not only that but it does make him more tradeable too if that is the direction they want to go in. I would not but…
stickguy
8/11/2009-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
they are woefully short in the rotation already. I just don’t see them trading Pelfrey. Hopefully adding someone else that is established to slide in front of him.
I still think he will eventually harness the talent and put it all together. But, who knows?
Maybe he wil lbe come another Brett Myers. Good “stuff”, never quite gets it together consistantly, then has a big year as a closer!
trs86
8/11/2009-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
I agree and disagree. IF you get Fielder for Pelfrey then you would just have more work to do. You could build around Johan and Lackey. But again you would have to go cheap in LF.
There's Always '10
8/11/2009-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
I like Pelf. I think he has a very nice fastball and 2-seam sinking fastball. BUT he has no offspeed pitch. Notice a pattern here? Bobby Parnell, completely ineffective offspeed pitch. Why are we developing these guys to come to the big leagues with one pitch? Geez. I mean, learn a change up at least.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Well you said yourself that Pelfrey has 2 pitches. LOL
CaseStreet
8/11/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
I just love how for the past few years, we the FANS have criticized the Mets for not having grit, etc., yet the moment the team gets some tough breaks via injuries, we decide that the FRANCHISE is doomed.
Man up people, where’s your cojones? Your team needs your support.
As trs demonstrated yesterday, the teams GAPING HOLES can be filled before next season.
So show some faith, cuz Ya Gotta Believe!
trs86
8/11/2009-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
yeah, I think we are letting this season get to us. This is not next year’s lineup right now or even next year’s rotation.
metsgirl31
8/11/2009-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Wow…I’ve been trying to have exactly this attitude…its just difficult some days to not feel totally negative…but you are definitely right…we are Mets fans for God’s sake…we are tougher than this!
charlie_s
8/11/2009-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Well, to be fair, when the issue was the team was very good but lacked grit, it was a problem. My issue isn’t with its grit (or lack thereof), but with its level of talent, holes to be filled, and seemingly short budget with which to do it. Hence, the feeling of doom. But, doom in the short run, not long run.
But, again it has to be said, I think the team needs new leadership before it turns it around. Just saying that we’ll have Beltran and Reyes back next year, so the team is automatically better is a recipe for disaster. The team needs an overhaul and I’m not sure Omar is the guy to do it.
This has nothing to do with cajones. It’s just cold, hard logic.
GravediggerHebner
8/11/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
I think there is a difference between “automatically better” and “world series contender.” IMO I don’t see how it’s possible that this same exact roster, but with healthy Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes instead of the guys who tried to replace them this season, is not automatically better. Seems to me there is plenty of cold hard logic in that.
With those two guys playing almost every day, the team will be better and win more games. How much better, and how many more games is the question. I don’t think most fans will be satisfied if the only “changes” to the roster are the return of those two, but their return has to be a step in the right direction, as part of a greater plan. Maybe it’s a semantics issue, but that’s the way I see it.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, we need those guys back AND some solid players to be competitive. We just need those 2 back to be better.
udontmesswthejohan
8/11/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
I think it comes down to getting those guys back and then adding some other pieces around them. In short, we can’t go into next season with the same attitude that we did this year knowing that we had some holes, but we were hoping that things would work out. I’m just as guilty since i thought we could get by and who knows maybe we could have without these injuries. Point being Reyes and Beltran are part of the solution, not the problem. Like others have said, it’s going to depend on who we add to the DW, Beltran and Wright threesome.
darknova306
8/11/2009-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, in theory the copious gaping holes could be filled if our budget doesn’t get cut, but I’ve had no faith in Omar for a few years now, so my hope for next year is gone as long as he sticks around. I’m looking more toward 2012 when some of our better lower-level prospects (the ones that don’t get traded) are developed and experienced enough to make a difference.
The pitching situation is really starting to worry me: Ollie in my mind has always been garbage (“potential” only gets you so far before you need to perform), Pelfrey looks like he’s turning into Ollie with his inconsistency, and we have no clue how Maine/Nieve/Niese will do coming back from their injuries. Even if we get Lackey for the 2 slot, I have NO faith after that in this rotation.
trs86
8/11/2009-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Well maybe Adam Rubin DOES have an agenda now. He is reporting that Ricco is putting pressure on Omar and the Mets are phasing out Omar. Now this report is all over every Mets blog and fans rejoice everywhere. However, other reports are not coming out that Omar is safe and the Mets plan to use Ricco more with the business side and media.
Hmmm.
prismo
8/11/2009-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Well he does say it’s just “speculation” from his source(s). It does make sense though.
CaseStreet
8/11/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
So Ricco gets Omar’s job and Rubin gets Tony B’s job. Omar was right all along.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, it is kind of strange but you can read what is going on 2 diff. ways and Rubin for some reason is taking it for the worst. The Mets, like it or not, have been backing Omar all along. Until he is fired or the Wilpons say otherwise, Omar is as safe as Rubin is.
charlie_s
8/11/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Well, he only said it was the “wrong forum” after all…
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Coming from you, Casestreet, I’m not sure what to think because I know you’ve lobbied to be the Daily News’ Mets beat beat reporter…you’ve lobbied here, you’ve lobbied at Citifield…I’m not saying you know what I’m saying or that anyone knows what I’m saying other than that you know I’m saying what you’re saying about what he said she said.
trs86
8/11/2009-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
This is the wrong forum for this. I will create another one. LOL
GravediggerHebner
8/11/2009-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Somebody make Wanny a .jpeg
CaseStreet
8/11/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Are you alleging that I tore Adam down so I could take his job?
That is despicable you would say that.
I fart in your general direction.
wannybackstra
8/11/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
From Buster Olney’s column:
1. Heard this: Doug Davis of the Diamondbacks is currently on waivers, at a time when a team’s evaluation can be greatly swayed by one performance, and Davis pitched well against the Mets on Monday. Why he won:
A. The Mets’ hitters went 1-for-16 (.063) against his fastball — season average against was .251.
B. He succeeded by pitching to contact; only one swing and miss on 78 fastballs Monday night (4 on 181 fastballs over past three games; 2-0, 2.70 ERA).
So this means that he tried to let the Mets hit and they still couldn’t.
GravediggerHebner
8/11/2009-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
This is somewhat a stretch, but I’m going to type it anyway:
In the context of “he tried to let the Mets hit and they still couldn’t,” the Mets had 2 viable major league hitters in the lineup (Castillo & Wright) and those 2 were both 1 for 2 plus a walk facing Davis. So the real hitters put forth by the Mets batted .500 against Davis and had and OBP of .500 against Davis.
The rest of the lineup was
-Pagan (unproven career 4th OF)
-Francoeur (2 years removed from viable ML production & this is coming from someone who endorses his acquisition)
-Tatis (crashed to earth after last year’s renaissance)
-Murphy (unproven in 1st full season)
-Santos (career minor leaguer)
-Hernandez (light hitting backup MI)
This is the kind of lineup that a mediocre major league pitcher is supposed to show his ‘flash of brilliance’ against.