“You have to have a catcher or you’ll have all passed balls.” Casey Stengel
Here’s what you missed on Wednesday, August 12, 2009:
- This Day In Mets Infamy With Rusty 8-12-09 (The Billy Joel Edition by rustyjr
- Video of the Day: Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life by GravediggerHebner
- Draft &Â Follow 8-12-09 by GravediggerHebner
- Where Were You When Contest: 9/20/93 by trs86
- Final Reminder! Real Dirty Mets Quiz – Book Contest! by prismo
- Sheffield and Feliciano Claimed? UPDATE by trs86
- Post Game: Wild West Show by GravediggerHebner
You got something to say? Say it on The Real Dirty Mets Blog!
190 comments
darknova306
8/13/2009-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
While talking to a friend over some beers last night, we came across an idea that won’t happen but could be interesting to think about. I and some others want Jerry gone and a new manager to replace him. How about Alex Cora being a player-manager? He’s a solid backup on the field, and he’s a very intelligent baseball guy. I believe he’s definitely got a solid managerial career ahead of him, and think it might be interesting to give him a shot at this.
Anyway, just thought I’d throw that out there to see what people think.
metsfan4decades
8/13/2009-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Funny you mention this…some of us in the dugout the other day discussed Joey Cora for new manager…
darknova306
8/13/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
I don’t really know that much about Joey Cora, but if he’s anything like Alex I’ll take him as manager. I just really really want Jerry gone. If he laughs in one more post-game interview about how bad we are, I may break my TV.
prismo
8/13/2009-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
How about…Bobby Valentine.
:p
darknova306
8/13/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
I wouldn’t mind Bobby V coming back, though I don’t really see it happening.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
well…your right it wont happen
But if i had to bet who would be a future manager…gotta be alex cora. I dont know how this will all shake out come the offseason but i hope they do the right thing(which means they wont)
fongy2
8/13/2009-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Joey Cora will be a Mgr
sooner rather then later,I just hope not
here.As for Alex,he may
too one day BUT the player/Mgr thing went out with Torre,Kessinger&Rose.
You won’t see that anymore.And I see where
we’ll be wearing throw
back jerseys this weekend and a bunch of
photos dipicting the
Mets history wil be put
up all over Citifield
along with them painting the OF walls
with our W.S/Championship pennants. Its about time!! How do you build
a half billion dollar
stadium,years in the
planning and not have
indicators of the teams
history all over??
Really guys,this teams
FO is inept! From Ownership on down.
Please, Wilpons, first
things first…Lets stop with the gimmicks
and do something here!
stickguy
8/13/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
better to get it right late than not at all!
Also, I am curious to know why you say J Cora will be a manager, but you hope it isn’t here? Do you want to keep Jerry that badly?
fongy2
8/13/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
No,I want a
veteran
Mgr.
No rookies.
Same with the
new GM,
if Omar
is shown
the door
And thats a
big if.
Like I’ve said before,
I have a bad feeling
Omar will survive
this.
trs86
8/13/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
I disagree about the veteran. To me we need someone fresh with energy. I would much rather have Joey than an old Lou or a comeback kid in Bobby V. We know sequels don’t work.
trs86
8/13/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
Besides Jerry was a veteran manager too.
prismo
8/13/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Oh no…a veteran manager!? The horror! Clearly no veteran managers are good at what they do. Every team should dump managers with at least 5 years of managing experience in favor of newbies with no experience.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
I am not saying we should not get a veteran. I just don’t think it should be the only thing we look for.
trs86
8/13/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Hey what do you have against my client Joey Cora?
trs86
8/13/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
I think Joey has ties to our organization, is known as one of the up and coming minds in baseball and has been under the tutelage of Ozzie Gullien. What can be bad?
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
To play devil’s advocate I’d say the bad thing would be that a team as unsound fundamentally as this Met team, if they don’t increase their dedication to practicing and executing fundamentals under a veteran manager who should receive the respect accorded a veteran manager and who at least allegedly stressed fundamentals early and often, why would they suddenly become more fundamentally sound under a rookie?
trs86
8/13/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
I think maybe they would actually respect Joey more than Jerry. I think Jerry being part of the disasters previous and this one has made the guys not respect him. Not to mention the fact that he constantly tells the media they are not good enough and we need help.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Fair points. I don’t know about the “they don’t respect him because he was a part of the previous disasters” because so were most of them, so in that context they should not respect themselves either, but the other stuff I agree with your point.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Yeah but you know in this culture the players never blame themselves and it’s much easier to fire a manager than a team.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
True, it just really depressed me to read that comment by you about them not respecting him due to his being part of the previous disaster.
My view has always been one of “yes Jerry was on the bridge during the disaster, but he wasn’t steering the ship and he may very well have been giving good advice that went unheeded by the captain.”
Your view of it just really bummed me out. If you’re right, even though I agree and understand that “you can’t fire the players” I extrapolate from your view that this team is in much deeper trouble than I previously believed and no simple managerial change is going to alleviate it.
It will take massive roster overhaul because if they can’t separate Jerry from Willie in the collapse context, how can they separate themselves?
stickguy
8/13/2009-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
I really dont see Valentine back. That actually would be a typical Wilponish FO move (done for PR, or to appease the fans, and not as part of a well thought out business plan).
I actaully would love someone like Joey Cora. About time the Mets got a fresh young mind instead of a doltish retread. And best of all to the Wilpons, those young guys work cheaper!
They also need to sit DW down. Heck, they should put him on the DL to avoid temptation. I can just see the announcement after the season that he needed surgery to repair the damage that would have healed itself if he rested now.
trs86
8/13/2009-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Agree about the fresh mind. There was a reason that Willie had been turned down 100 times before us.
fongy2
8/13/2009-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
They need to see what
LaRussa will do after
the season AND see what
Bobby V. wants to do.
Nothing against Joey Cora but just b/c you
sit next to a great MGR
doesn’t mean you’ll become one. See:Jerry.
And what ties does Alex
Cora have to the Mets..
as mentioned above??
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
What ties does Ron Gardenhire have to the Twins? What ties does Tony LaRussa have to the Cardinals? What ties does Joe Torre have to the Yankees or Dodgers? Who cares about the ties of the person? I don’t want a manager because of their ties, I want one because he is/will soon be a good manager.
I know you didn’t bring up the “ties” Fongy I’m just continuing the convo here.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
OK,no
big deal
to me.
I couldn’tcare less about ties,
I was just curious.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
Uh Joey was in the Mets system as a coach before being offered a job by Ozzie. I don’t want a circus and you know that is what Bobby V will become. Lets just allow our memories of Bobby V to be great. LaRussa? Why would he leave? The Mets can’t pay him 5M a year to convince him to leave.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
I thought
LaRussas
contract
was up
after the season.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
It is but don’t you think they will offer him a contract? He currently makes over 4M a year so I would expect his next contract to be closer to 6.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
So what Cora managed in the Mets minor league system? So has Gary Carter, Ken Oberkfell and dozens of incompetent doofuses.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
So now Cora is an incompetent doofus, man you take things a long way. All I said was he had ties, damn. The had ties part is because the Wilpons like guys who have ties.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
I didn’t say Cora was incompetent. I said that he has ties is not necessarily a point in his favor.
Don’t twist.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Reading your phrase “don’t twist” I finally understand the phrase “Pretzel Logic.”
Thanks for the illumination.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
I disagree. I think the fact that he was in the organization gives him a leg up to the Wilpons over say uhm Ryne Sandberg. I also LIKE the fact that he has worked for Gullien. You can dislike him if you want but I think he is a great manager.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
I wasn’t discussing what the Wilpons want. You’re having a different discussion if that’s what you’re talking about.
As to the Guillen/Cora relationship…
You’ve said you don’t want a circus act.
You’ve said that a major qualification of Cora was his education under Guillen.
Guillen is a good manager. But he’s a clown too.
Therefore, Cora is learning from a clown.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Saying that Gullien is a circus clown which I do not believe, you think because he is that Cora will be? I think Cora is already known as a great baseball mind and I do like the fact that is training in MANAGING is under one like Gullien.
Whatever Wanny I am wasting my time going in circles like clowns in a circus with you.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
By learning from Guillen he has just as much of a chance of learning to be a clown as he does of learning to be a good manager.
Eric Mangini learned from Bill Belichick. He learned to be a jackass with the press and his related policies. But never learned how to coach.
It works both ways.
If your point that Cora’s credentials are based, in part, on his experience under Guillen, you have to take the whole situation into the equation.
And since you’re so concerned about the manager being a jerk off, that should be a red flag.
Perhaps Cora likes the way Guillen mouths off in the press…
trs86
8/13/2009-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
Round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Takes two to tango, my friend.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Yeah but my feet are tired.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
i dont know much about joey cora unfortunatly but if he has 0 exp in managing like willie….then i dont think i want any part of that. I want an NL style manager who knows how to execute a hit and run and a double switch effectivly. I think the biggest mistake was keeping alot of the collapse seasoned people. I mean think about it…we have NEVER been the same since the collapse and we still have personell from that time. We need to clean out the collapse and all personell from the collapse and start over.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
0 experience has a head manager in the MLB yes. You gotta remember Art Howe and Jerry Manuel had experience. Cora is known as a great baseball mind and has been working with Ozzie Gullien for years. He has been a head coach in the minors and is one during winter league as well. He is currently the bench coach and has to be manager every time Ozzie gets ejected and suspended so he does have experience.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
but so has willie and yet he is another AL manager who doesnt know how to manager in the NL. Look how much jerry is struggling and how much art struggled. We need an NL style manager, especially since we wont be depending on the long ball as much and will have ot manufacture runs at citi field.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
What is Chicago known for in the AL Dirty? Same as what LaRussa was known for in the AL.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
a team waiting on the long ball. That team struggled when they werent hitting balls out the park cmon…like i said i dont know much about joey cora but we need someone that knows what they are doing and knows how to deal with a black hole in the 9th spot in the order….
trs86
8/13/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Touche, they are now and are trying to return to the style that won them their championship.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
well w/e they are doing is of no importance to me lol
but you know as well as i, no matter what we do we will be power challenged for a few years. We are going to have to scrap together wins and hits and i have 0 faith in jerry being able to do that or anyone from the AL. Ill repeat, i dotn know much about your boy cora but what i do know is we need a NL style manager who can move guys over and make moves that make sense
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Jerry Manuel might be the worst manager the Mets have ever had. Tactically, he’s a nightmare and there is often no apparent logic behind anything he does. Worse yet, he often does things that contradict what he so publicly states he will do.
That said, he will probably get a pass this offseason, exspecially since Madoff’s Mets won’t want to pay two managers again next season.
If he were to be replaced, my sense is that the team would be better off with a veteran than a newbie (by veteran I include a long time baseball guy even if he has never managed a MLB club) because the two biggest Manuel problems have been atrocious in-game management and extremely poor fundamentals. These things, I feel, would be better addressed by a veteran.
My sense is that younger managers make sense for younger teams who are trying to grow together and need to be motiated by playing with one of their own. This team needs to win right away and has no time for someone to learn on the job.
Then again, a young Mike Scioscia immediately improved these things immediately qhen he took over in Los Angeles of Anaheim and all points south of Sacramento but north of San Diego.
prismo
8/13/2009-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
You already forgot about Willie?
But seriously…the Mets have had a few terrible managers, it’s hard to place Jerry in that camp, even though I’m not a supporter of his.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Yeah we did have Dallas Green and Jeff Toreborg.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
Believe it or not, Willie wouldn’t even do half of the half-assed things Jerry has done.
For example, Willie’s “guys” played no matter what. Early in the season, Jerry proclaimed Murphy would play every day, including v. lefties. Sure enough, Murphy would get two hits and sit the next day. Murphy hardly played v. lefties at all until the injuries got so bad he had no choice but to play every day.
Another example was the now infamous Feliciano v. Matt Diaz matchup. Both managers are staunch L/R matchup guys (which I hate, by the way). Yet, Jerry allows Feliciano to pitch a lefty masher with Stokes warm in the pen. Willie was too programmed to do that. (really the right move at the time was to have left Parnell in the game in the first place)
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
George Bamberger?
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
At least he had the excuse of being surrounded by little or no talent.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
For the last 3 months Jerry has had that same excuse.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
True. And that probably won’t go unnoticed by the Wilpons.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
agreed…willie did things mostly by the textbook while we had to suffer the crash and burns of the “gut” move by jerry…omir santos vs lindstrom in the 9th anyone??
darknova306
8/13/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Exactly. The way he handled Murphy when he still had other options was awful. Not to mention all the nonsense with Church. How you treat your right fielder like that and still think you command respect is beyond me.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
But I don’t think you can call someone who has been managing for almost 10 years as either a minor league guy or as the bench coach for the White Sox a rookie. I would much rather have a guy like Cora than a circus act with Lou or sequel Valentine.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
You’re entitled to
be wrong.
If there was any way
Bobby V.was interested,
you bring him in.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
For 5M a year?
prismo
8/13/2009-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Reports indicated that he made around $3.9 mil in Japan. A $4mil contract might get him on the Mets.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
That’s 3.9M in a Japan market. LOL. But anyway, I would expect him to want what the top managers are making to manage this mess. But whatever, 4M 5M? Whatever. I just think it would be a bad idea to go back and expect him to do with this team what he did with the last team.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think there is any way that Bobby V. is NOT interested.
Nothing against Bobby, but I would prefer if the Mets moved forward with forward thinking and forward planning and forward hiring, not going backward to rekindle the past by bringing someone they’ve already had back.
I don’t want Davey, I don’t want Bobby, I want the NEXT Bobby, the NEXT Davey, whoever that is.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
My thing with Bobby V is I am just not sure sequels work. He was a great part of our memories here but there in no guarantee and in a situation where we are low on budget I don’t see the Mets paying Jerry 1.5M and Bobby V 5M on top of it.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. I loved Bobby’s tenure, it was NEVER boring and often successful, but didn’t the era of rehiring your former manager go out with Billy Martin?
I won’t complain if they do hire Bobby, but I’m not advocating for them to do so.
Seems to me the GET BOBBY thing could become a bit like the GET MANNY thing in that it would almost certainly be a positive step but the timing/money isn’t good and it isn’t likely to happen so why get into a frenzy pining for it?
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Godfather 2 was pretty good!
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
And Rocky 2!
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Yes, but did you see Superman II?
I think the Godfather thing is the so called “exception that proves the rule.”
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Cora is the right hand man for the biggest circus act in the majors today.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
Not sure I would call Ozzie the biggest circus act in the game. He has yet to wear a clown suit in the dugout after getting ejected.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
Who is a bigger circus act than that big mouth in the game today (as I said before)?
trs86
8/13/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Lou is pretty close. As far as I know he has not taken too many trips driving around intoxicated lately either.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I don’t understand why you won’t just admit that Ozzie Guillen is a circus clown.
Do you have “ties” to him too?
trs86
8/13/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Nope, I just think he is a great manager. Very underrated passionate coach. You want to bring in an experienced manager, bring in him.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
I think he is a good manager too.
But the fact of the matter is that he is the same type of media hound that Valentine is, whom you characterize as a circus act.
I suggest you Google him if you don’t recall all of his nuttiness.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Oh I recall all of it. I just see it as a different thing. Ozzie is very passionate and sometimes lets that get the best of him. Valentine’s always seemed to be cold and calculated. Look I liked Valentine but I just don’t think he is magical and I think it would be a mistake to pay him that 4-5M to work that magic again after already being fired here before. We all have a great memory of Valentine’s teams, lets just leave it at that.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
That’s fine. But I’m not viewing this dicussion as a Cora v. Valentine issue.
I’m viewing this issue as an experienced manager v. an inexperienced manager.
I just don’t think an inexperienced manager is the best choice for a team that has no time to allow him to grow into the position and needs a little fear to remind them to step on the bases, throw the ball to the right place and god forbid cover the right base.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Maybe, but I look at the experienced managers available and cringe and also realize the cost of the ones available.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Guillen is a great Mgr and another example of how bad a GM Omar is.
Would he have ever hired a guy like Ozzie?
A guy who’d be much more the face of the team than him?? Doubtful!
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Obviously,I agree Wanny…
BUT we’ve had some bad Mgrs
in my lifetime including
Joe Frazier and Art Howe so
I’m not sure Jerrys the worst.
But,he ain’t good.
Look,like with assistants and
coordinators in the NFL…
Some guys are simply solid
number 2 or 3 men BUTaren’t
cut out to be the man in charge. See:Zip Zimmer.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
While we all realize his lack of managerial skills…my fear is that the front office does not realize it. I think he is getting a pass for the injuries. I agree that jerry is horrendous as a manager and while we are short handed, he could have made moves that could have saved us some games. I agree we need somone that already knows what they are doing and if there is a mike sociscia out there…WE NEED HIM lol.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Nice thread but in
the end Omar and Jerry
likely return.
I think all things
considered, this is
the most depressing
season I’ve experienced
as a Met fan.
With the Red Sox problems and the Yankees surging,its
beginning to look like
a yank-phil series.
Killer!
trs86
8/13/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
I actually don’t think they will. I think that Jerry may be gone either way. I think the players have lost too much respect for him. I would not put the Phillies ahead of the Dodgers yet either.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
I hope you’re right.
Dodgers
have to
prove it
to me that they could
beat the Phils in a big spot.
Phillies have already proven how
tough minded they are.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
They did last year but they did NOT in 2007.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
agreed…phillies have been playing a bit too comfortable of late. I wonder if they will make it all the way again.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Its called growth TRS,The only thing that would prevent the phillies from being in the series this season would be Lidge blowing up further.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
I disagree Fongy but it’s ok if you think they are great.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Idont know about great,but they’re real good!
Look my fellow Met fans may hate them(which I dont quite understand)BUT if that was our team they’d be loved here.Theres alot of the ’86Mets to that group.They are a fearless,tough team of grinders
who really come to play
everyday.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
I am not saying they are not good, but right now the Dodgers are better. Just because last year the Phillies won means nothing to me. How many times do teams get to the WS back to back? The Phillies don’t even have the same team full of guys. Some are better and some are MUCH worse. Lee obviously is an improvement but does he make up for terrible years by everyone on their bench and Lidge? They will have to prove to me they are the best team THIS year.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
I don’t hate “them” I like and respect the majority of their roster, but Victorino is just a whiny hypocrite and while he may be a “grinder” I can’t overlook the whiny hypocrite.
Having said that, I don’t advocate/endorse pouring beer on him.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Cinder-block maybe but that’s a waste of good beer. J/K I think.
prismo
8/13/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Rumor has it that after the incident, numerous Phillies fans gasped in horror, while some were quoted as screaming out “Why would anyone waste good beer on Shane when Santa will be in the park in only four months!”
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Then I suppose if it was a Bud Light or something similar it was OK.
But actual good beer I stand by my original statement.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
I am thinking why would a Cubs fan waste 8-10 bucks on Vicki?
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
b/t/w fellas,just wanted to let cha all know we do have a future MLB
Catcher in Thole. Have gotten a chance
to see the kid play 4 times during the last 2 weeks and he ain’t far away.Looks good behind the plate,strong arm,very involved with
the Pitchers during the game AND will
hit for Average in the Bigs.
May still need another year in the
minors but he’s not far away.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
How was his defense? You say strong arm did you get to see him in caught stealing situations? I have read that his defense is what is the question mark.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Very pleased to hear the positive review of the defense. I have read a lot about the bat being very good (if not powerful) but the defense lagging, so it’s good news to hear that it’s catching up.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Yeah,I went to 2 Sens-
BMets games in H’Burg
last week w/the same thought. I actually sat
behind the plate,secA
up against the screen
so I was real close.
The kid was in command
out there.Although,he
didn’t throw anyone out
stealing,it wasn’t b/c of him,he made a couple plays close.
He little things out
there that I took notice of,like go out
and s/w the Pitcher
after a walk and ball
one to the next hitter,
etc.Its funny,he chokes
up at the plate but has
a very smooth/short swing.Making contact
is what hes all about
at the plate and shows
a real good eye.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Cool, perhaps with time he could be Lo Duca without the gambling, big mouth and teenage girlfriend (although at his age a teenage girlfriend for Thole is more age appropriate).
trs86
8/13/2009-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Well then that’s just boring.
fongy2
8/13/2009-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Nice one!
Not a bad comparison!
b/t/w,
Lucas Duda=poor mans
Mike Carp.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Poor man’s Mike Carp = AAAA player.
Great.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Any thoughts on Tejada, Holt or Duda? Anyone under the radar that stood out to you?
Mejia got smacked around last night in his return from injury, by the way.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Yeah he had a really bad 1st inning but settled down in the 2nd and 3rd to retire 7 in a row. Finished with 3 innings, 2 hits, 2 walks, 3 runs and 3k’s. I just hope that first inning was just jitters.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
After a finger injury he might have also been just getting a feel for the ball too.
There’s really no negatives that can be found with a 19 y.o. pitching at least competently to AA hitters.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Tejada
looks like he
has a world of
physical
ability
but hes just a baby.
From about
5 feet away he
looks like hes
14! Very
skilled
though.
I’d think new Mgmt
would just allow him another
full season in the minors
to see how much
he can grow both physically and as a ballplayer.Have
missed Holt twice.
Ike Davis sort of
reminds
me of Pena of
Tampa but I’d
think he needs
atleast another yr in the minors as well.
Dylan Owen is
a smallish
but very aggresive Righty
who may
be a reliever
for us one day.
Neilson
should be able
to get
Lefties
out on the MLB level pretty soon but
I doubt hes a starter.
Duda,like I said
isn’t a
major leaguer
and is a
complete
butcher
in the OF.There
isn’t much else there which is
why their record is as bad as
it is.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
good stuff, Fongy.
I definitely agree that none of these kids should be rushed. Davis can make an appearance with the Mets next season if he handles AAA pitching well first.
Maybe Tejada stays in AA next year to learn 2B to be groomed as Castillo’s replacement?
Did you get the sense that if Tejada fills out that he could hit at the MLB level?
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Oh yeah,I think
Tejada could be a real good 2way player.
Hes not overmatched
at the plate atAA and has lots of speed.
Really though what struck me the most seeing them a few times is how confident Thole and Davis appear.
They LOOK like pro players
and fairly soon.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
That is just really good to hear, it’s like a ray of sunshine through a dark cloud.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah,I was very surprised with Thole.The last guy who everytime I saw him I thought more each time this guys an MLBer was Parnell two years ago.
Lets put it this way,Iwas almost as impressed with Thole both with the Bat and behind the plate as I was a yr ago seiing Weiters twice last season.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
I am curious.
For those who don’t think Jerry was/is appropriate due to his ties with Willie, and to those who don’t think Joey Cora is appropriate due to his ties with Ozzie Guillen, what do you think about John Ricco and his ties to Omar Minaya?
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Let me just calrify since I think this is generated out of things that I have said here: I don’t think Cora is inappropriate due to his ties with Ozzie Guillen. I think he is inappropriate because I prefer a manager with experience for this particular team. The Guillen argument was a devil’s advocate argument because TRS stated he didn’t want a manager who woul dbring a circus atmosphere and at the same time preferred Cora for his experience with Guillen.
That said, when Omar goes, all of his people should go with him. Ricco has not exactly stocked the farm in his time here, though the 2008 draft is looking promising.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
My comment about the circus was not in general anyway. I said I did not want Bobby V because he would bring his circus to town. I would love to have Ozzie Guillen’s circus in Queens.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think we can judge Ricco yet. I am not sure you can say he learned under Omar as his duties were most likely completely different. I guess we shall see because I am almost 100% sure he will be the next GM.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that we can’t necessarily say that Ricco learned under Omar, but can we necessarily say that Manuel learned under Randolph?
I think that conversation has been left behind but I did respond above (and will summarize here) that if you’re correct about the players not respecting Manuel because he is associated with the collapse then IMO the problems with this team run much deeper than I previously believed and will not likely be solved without major roster, coaching and front office turnover. No new manager alone with a minor tweak to the roster will eradicate that IMO if you’re right.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
NO NO, I never said Manuel learned under Randolph. Manuel was a manager long before Randolph was. I think maybe my words on respect were to harsh. I think that as long as there are managers in the dugout from the collapse it’s POSSIBLE that in a tight situation the players think oh hell here we go again.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
agreed..they have had that look like we have been here before. I dont think they have any confidance in jerry and just like when david said earlier in the year that he will continue to do what he has done(against his managers conference minutes before) it seems they dont respect him either.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
I think in that players meeting they had they really took it to Jerry. I think they blamed him for their lack of confidence.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
I know its probably blasphemous but i dont want bobby v. I want someone else entirely. Lets FINALLY clear out all of the collapse personell(what we should have done this year) and start over.
trs86
8/13/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
IF I have to have one of the big 3 I want Lou. You can’t think he wants back in Chicago and might enjoy a trip back to NY. I don’t want LaRussa and don’t think rehiring Bobby V is a magic pill that everyone will expect it to be.
I guess it comes down to are we trying to win it all next year or build a team?
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
are lou and larussa FA’s anytime soon lol?
trs86
8/13/2009-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Both can be. LaRussa is and Lou has an option. But granted that would be VERY un-Wilpon like.
dirtysanchez
8/13/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
lol @ very-unwilpon like
your right but if i had my choice(and a tough one) i would want larussa. Only because i feel larussa has done more with less and has managed teams similar to the ones we are going to have to good success. The guy has a method to his madness that is appealing imo. Granted we dont have a pujols calibar player but i think he can make the most out of a situation. All that said, its more likely we would get lou than larussa.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
Plus Dave Duncan comes with him.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Cant argue with the success of the LaRussa/Duncan combo, especially with how that make lemon pitchers into lemonade.
But I can’t stand to see 4 hour games with the various LaRussa pitching changes. He’s the innovator of the L/R matchup stuff that I hate so much.
The thing with that is it is fine if you have pitchers who can’t “crossover” (as they say now). But he seems to prefer to find pitchers who can not.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
And the inventor of that stupid pitchers bat 8th crap. And the fact that NY streets would not be safe after a loss.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
oooh, yeah. hate that pitchers batting 8th crap too.
maybe the wilpons would spring for chauffeur.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
Only after losses though right?
trs86
8/13/2009-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
You would think someone making 5M a year could take a cab?
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, just after losses. After wins he rides the backs of bandwagon fans all the way to the bar, then home.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
He should get in touch with Bobby V. He has a magic carpet he rides around on.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
Why would La Russa leave that made spot for this nightmare? He has the chance to “coach” Albert the great. Lou Pinella is vastly overrated. What has he done with the Cubs exactly? Bottomline is you can complain about managers all you want, but for the most part its on the players. I don’t see how or why we would bring one of these guys in. Plus idk if their in-your-face is going to work. I think they’re going to be met with alot of resistance. I’m not saying Bobby is magical, but he’s a likable guy who has had coaching the Mets. Plus it would be very entertaining to see this guy back. Players seem to love him, I know the fans do.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
*who has had success coaching the Mets.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Want Davey back? He’s a likable guy who has had success coaching he Mets? The players love him and I know the fans do?
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
he’s also the last manager to have had success managing JJ Putz and David Wright!
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Bobby took them to the Series nine years ago. Johnson took them in I believe 1947…or at least it feels like it. Look at the team bobby had in 2000 and looks where they got.
And if its any consultation bobby has had success since he left. His Japanese teams where good. Take that for what its worth..whatever you value that as, but it means something.
He’s not the answer….a solid 2 pitcher and a power outfielder is…we know this, but if we’re in the getting another coach business, I’m very content with Bobby V is my point.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Davey took them to the WS and won. What is your point? Who gives a crap about what Bobby V did in Japan? The guy should not be put on some magical pedestal because of what he did 10 years ago.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
I agree. While recycling in general is a good thing, in baseball managers I prefer throwing out the old and buying something new, not running out to the trash barrel before the garbage man picks it up to grab your old manager out of the trash, dust the coffee grounds off him, and bring him back in.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah,thats what everyone said when the
yanks hired Torre.
Or…something like that.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
I wasn’t specific so please allow me to elaborate. Rehiring managers that were successful with your franchise previously but then fired is an idea I don’t support. I don’t want Davey back, I don’t want Bobby V back.
Someone else’s trash is just fine, it’s new to me, I just don’t want my own trash again.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, someone’s trash is another’s treasure. Your trash is uh… your trash.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Ladies and gentlemen we have our winner!
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously,neither of you compost!
You should see my Veggies
out back.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
I compost daily. But I don’t reach into the compost and pull out anything except what I’ll politely call fertilizer. No veggies come out of the composter!
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
Err,I was talking about using the composted soil to GROW the veggies. Hello!
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
Understood completely, but my point was that I don’t reach into my trash to pick out things to re-use for their original purpose.
Compost is a new purpose is it not? If you want to bring back Bobby V as manager, he is being removed from the our own “theoretical trash” for the same purpose he filled previously and this is what I’m against.
I don’t take my own egg shells out of the composter and try to make an omelet with them.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
Funny. To the contrary, George Carlin once said, did you ever notice that someone else’s stuff is sh*t but your sh*t is stuff?
CaseStreet
8/13/2009-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
Jose Valentin
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Not crazy! BUT I’d take
Bobby V. or Tony L. first.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
But then this site would lose a valuable contributor
CaseStreet
8/13/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
lol, but I’d make this site the exclusive Mets Blog.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
As a bench coach or hitting coach yes.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Or as Jose Reyes’s personal confidence coach.
I find it interesting, by the way, that Hojo has become a hitting coach. He struck 100x or more for five straight seasons.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I never liked the idea of Hojo as hitting coach. Not saying you need to have success in hitting to be a good coach but you should have success in coaching to continue to be one and Hojo does not.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
It’s nice to see the ’86 Mets getting involved in any capacity, but that’s a question I ask all the time. Why is Hojo still our hitting coach?
trs86
8/13/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Because fans like former Mets players and Mets ties for some reason. Just like how people want Bobby V back and forget what happen after 2000. Or people want Keith to be hitting coach or even idiots that want Carter to be the next manager.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
No, that’s probably carter actually on this site hyping himself. I doubt anybody actually wants Carter.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Rudy Jaramillo wasn’t
exactly Tony Gwynn!
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Unless I’m fogetting something he doesn’t wear the Scarlet “C” of collapse, so he’s stench-free in that context.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
My prediction for next years manager…..Manny Acta. Would you put it past this org.?
trs86
8/13/2009-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Not at all Whata. But after listening to the comments of Nijer Morgan I want nothing to do with Acta.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
What did he say? I didn’t see these comments.
trs86
8/13/2009-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t have them exactly as it was on First Take. But basically that the team did not listen to Manny and does Jim friggin Rigleman.
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
because players respect veteran managers!
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
Do they respect Jerry?
Or is the better question, is Jerry a veteran manager?
wannybackstra
8/13/2009-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
I guess he is — 7-8 yrs. of experience.
But I think as a buffoon he negates any benefit he’s gained from his service time.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
Depends upon the players.
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
If Omar staysand hires Acta….
I’m done!…After 36seasons!!
I may be done if Omar stays.
I would have to redecorate my
basement though.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
Just email the Phillies the highlights of your comments here, I’m sure they’d forward you some souvenirs!
fongy2
8/13/2009-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Already
have a
giant stuffed phillie
phanatic
which I
had to
get my
wife during
a “sorry
for being an
a-hole
moment”
It worked!
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t remember what they were called exactly but when I was a kid we had an inflatable clown that had a weight in the bottom so when you punched it in the face it fell backward then bounced back up ready for you to punch it in the face again. That’s what I’d be doing with a handy stuffed Phillie Phanatic.
If in your undying love for them you want to use the “punched and bounce back” metaphor for your Phillies you go right ahead, free of charge!
fongy2
8/13/2009-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
Why the ballbusting Heb?
You should know I’m mo Phillie fan.
Its not nice to name call.Thats what got me to disliking Case.
My wifes a Phillie fan and has been for 30yrs,I live b/t Phil and Pirate country,I get to see them everyday.
I respect how good they are.
I reserve my dislike for one team…The Yankees.
Although I’m not very fond of the Braves either.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I am typing these things in a more lighthearted way than they are apparently coming across.
I’m not busting balls in my opinion, but I apologize for allowing it to come across that way.
The reason I exaggerate your seeming affection for them is because you so often mention it yourself, for example today:
“Idont know about great,but they’re real good!
Look my fellow Met fans may hate them(which I dont quite understand)BUT if that was our team they’d be loved here.Theres alot of the ‘86Mets to that group.They are a fearless,tough team of grinders
who really come to play
everyday.”
If you don’t understand why some Met fans hate them I guess you also don’t see their “hey stop your celebrating” comments as hypocritical, which I do.
Perhaps it’s my imagination but it does seem to me that when someone maligns the Phillies in a comment you often leap to their defense and IMO they don’t need defending so I question why you take the time from your day to do it. That’s the motivation for my tweaking that has unfortunately morphed into ball busting.
fongy2
8/13/2009-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
Ok! No harm,No Foul!
I’m Sorry if some fellow Met fans are angered
because I can appreciate and respect a team that has become our rivals the past few seasons,although THAt appears over since we’re going in opposite directions.
Really though for me I cant understand anyone whos been a long time Met fan who would openly root for the yankees against them or even the Braves,but so be it.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
That’s fair. Thanks for working with me to a better mutual understanding of our perspectives. Peace and love brother!
CaseStreet
8/13/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Garry Carter – Team Manager
Jose Valentin – Bench Coach
Edgardo Alfonzo or Mike Piazza – Hitting Coach
Pedro Martinez – Pitching Coach
trs86
8/13/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Disaster 101.
whataputz
8/13/2009-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
How will Pedro be our coach if he is too busy dominating our line-up?
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
In fairness, our lineup is roughly on par with that of the Netherlands WBC team right now so I would expect him to dominate it. It’s the lineups of the rest of the league I doubt he’ll dominate.
CaseStreet
8/13/2009-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
the same Netherlands team that knocked out the D.R.?
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:20pm at 1:20 pm (UTC -4)
3-2 and 2-1 yeah. Not exactly done with a dominating lineup. Netherlands pitching stifled the DR.
CaseStreet
8/13/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
then too bad our pitching doesn’t look like the Netherlands pitching staff. Are Ponson and VandenHurk available?
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
Good one.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Helps alleviate the 1.60 WHIP and the 5.40 ERA when your lineup has given you 12 runs after 4 innings.
Good article on “Pedro the exaggerator” here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AgTP6Pnnye9DoGMlpc2DGHIRvLYF?slug=jp-pedro081309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
fongy2
8/13/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Did you watch last nights
game?
Pedro did what he was supposed to.AND
he got outs when the game
was still close.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
When it was still close meaning in the 2nd inning?
I watched the first 3 plus innings, tuning out during the big rally.
He may have had 2 to 3 more mph on his FB, but he looked like the same washed up Pedro to me otherwise with the 8 baserunners and 3 runs in 5 innings.
The Mets are not in any kind of relevant competition with the Phillies currently and I see no reason to concern myself with their 5th starter.
fongy2
8/13/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
Whos concerned?
They don’t even need the guy but to me its hard to root against Pedro.Like Manny,they did too much yankee killing over the yrs to root against them. And yeah,he came out got early outs and didnt hand back runs atleast until the game was out of hand.
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
That’s fair. I’m not “rooting against him” really, I just don’t find myself particularly interested in the post-Met Pedro Martinez, and given that the race for the division is long over I don’t find myself particularly interested in the Phillies either.
I was watching last night mostly out of curiosity about Samardzjia as a starter and it was a brutal as I suspected it might be.
CaseStreet
8/13/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
maybe Jeff would make a good manager. How about Omar as a GM/Manager?
GravediggerHebner
8/13/2009-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
Done and done-er. Or something that sounds like that