For the first time in 5 years, the Mets find themselves in the position of spoiler entering September. As of today, the Phillies lead the division, followed by the Marlins(5.5). The Marlins are virtually in the fight for the division championship still but they also find themselves in the hunt for the NL wild card. In a season where we have nothing to look forward to competition wise, we have an opportunity to exact some revenge against some of the teams that have held us to only a division championship the last 5 years. In case you need a reminder….
2007 Collapse
2008..Just came up short
The Mets 2007 and 2008 seasons were both ended on the last day of September by the same team…the Florida Marlins. The beneficiaries(as i see it) of both were the Philadelphia Phillies who due to the hands of the Marlins went to the playoffs both years, the latter resulting in a World Series championship. Heres the setup for the Mets September schedule. They have 9 games against the Marlins, 7 games against the Phillies and 6 games against the Braves. The Mets have the potential to impact the NL east division winner in a big way. My question for the TRDMB readers is who would you like to see us exact revenge on?
The Phillies
The Phills and their obnoxious fans have been obsessed with the Mets since the NL whooping the Mets laid down in 2006. They claimed to be the “Team to beat” in 2007, yet the Mets spent 140 games in 1st place that year compared to 4 days the Phillies spent. They got 1st place when it mattered though in 2007…on the last day of the season but not by their own doing. They became the NL east champions thanks to the Marlins. In 2008 the Mets had an 11-7 record against the Phillies and just came up short with all the injuries they sustained to make the playoffs. Lets look at some of my favorite quotes from the Phillies:
Phillies GM Pat Gillick: “If you want to know the best thing we had going for us this year,” said Gillick, “it was the fact that all the other teams in our division hated the Mets’ guts. It started with Atlanta and all the hostility they had with the Mets through the years. Then Fredi Gonzalez left Bobby Cox to manage the Marlins and he didn’t forget everything that went on between the Braves and Mets. Look what Florida did for us the past two years (beating the Mets two out of the three in each of the last series of the season to prevent them from making the postseason)! “Washington doesn’t like them very much either, and all those teams seemed to really get up for the Mets.”
Jimmy Rollins:”We don’t talk about celebrations, we just notice them,” Rollins said before last night’s game. “Nobody in particular. The whole team, you know.” When asked if the Mets do more “celebrating” than other teams, he replied, “Watch the game.”
150 comments
CaseStreet
8/21/2009-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
IMO, we should be helping the Braves win the division. I know, it’s like pick your poison.
Not the Phils cuz they’re jealous, annoying a** wipes.
Not the Marlins cuz the final games the past two seasons and how they celebrated and scooped up Shea dirt last after the final game. They have no class.
The Braves, on the other hand have put together a team built on pitching and their 8th hitter is Churchie who deserves to see some post season time after the Mets (Jerry) continues to dog him.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Maybe he (Church) deserved to be dogged.
All these teams can suck it as far as I’m concerned. I really couldn’t care less.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
I always thought that when jerry said what he did it was a jab at churchy. I respect teh way church answered back and i guess we are finally seeing the true relationship that we all knew they had but they denied. The braves (as me and 4d discussed on another thread) have always been professional(execpt for rocker) and they just did their baseball job. I dont think the braves are going to win either way but i would like to mess up either the phillies or marlins
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
There should be an option to vote for “Both”…I would like to “spoil” both their seasons.
whataputz
8/21/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I’m sure the Mets would choke at spoiling as well.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Well yeah….the ‘team’, and I use that term loosely, it’s going to have a hard time beating anyone rest of this year….
JoeR
8/21/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Did we really have to see the back pages and relive this again?
My thoughts as I watched Billy last night: Maybe this man talks so much and states his opinion openly sometimes to the point of being obnoxious because he knows he has more heart and guts than half the players in the league. Billy at 37-38 years old, after Tommy John surgery comes back on schedule, if not earlier, with zero setbacks, and throwing 96 mph! Yes he is back before Reyes, Beltran, Delgado, Putz, etc.
Other thought was its pretty amazing how the same guy after what I described above is throwing 96 mph while our closer who is 10 years younger and once threw 96-97 now doesnt. My thought was we know Billy can get it done at 96 mph. Do we really know if KRod can get it done at 91-92 sometimes cranking it up to 94?? Yes I guess last year Krod wasnt throwing 96 and the first half of this year but…
Like I said above this was just what was going threw my mind. I dont even know if i believe everything I said above. I am not advocating for Billy to be our closer…maybe our 8th inning guy would be great, though not happening.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
udontmesswthejohan says:
Friday, August 21 2009 at 9:32 am
Joe, spare me. Please. Two words – Seo Taguchi.
Reply
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Dude, don’t be so short sighted. He comes in for one inning and all of a sudden people are cheering him like some sort of conquering hero. Do you not remember the fact that anytime this team needed him to save a big game he chocked??? Does no one remember that this supposed team leader threw half the team under the bus??? Is it any wonder that everywhere this guy has been, his teamates end up disliking him???
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Agreed!
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
“My thoughts as I watched Billy last night: Maybe this man talks so much and states his opinion openly sometimes to the point of being obnoxious because he knows he has more heart and guts than half the players in the league”
Why because he has a big mouth? I suppose if you talk enough about how “old school” and “tough” you are, eventually people will start to believe it.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
I never want to see those images again.
And I’m with metsgirl on this one. Both. But if I had to pick one to be the spoiler for, hands down for me it’s the Phillies. I’d like nothing better than to read about their whining fans as they choked down the stretch.
I’ll root for the Braves. And I can’t believe I’m saying that…
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
LOL….agree…the least of all evils would be the Braves but gun to my head I’d pick the Phillies to ruin their season. Who would have thought one day we would pick the Braves over the other teams. Times sure do change.
JoeR
8/21/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. I would rather ruin the Phils and Marlins chances because of what the marlins did to us on the final days and the Phils for obvious reasons!
njstuckintx
8/21/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
It’s getting difficult to call these things rivalries when only one side of the match ups are pertinent anymore.
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
While we’re all GMs at heart,
I for one don’t envy the guy
who will replace Omar.
Say what you will positive or
negative about the job hes done,
our next GM has some mess to
clean up!
Mgr/coaches.
Training staff.
replacing a power hitting 1Bman.
Finding a power/rbi bat for LF.
Finding a legit #2 or 3 SP.
Ridding this team of the horrible
contracts of Castillo and Ollie
AND finding replacements for them.
Finding a Catcher for a yr or two
until(hopefully)Thole is ready.
As well as making sure Beltran,Reyes
AND Wright are ready to go next yr.
I’m sure theres more but this is
just off the top of my head.
Plus all this will have to be
done w/o increasing(and maybe even decreasing)the payroll.
So again, our next GM isn’t
someone to envy but to pray for.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Speaking of catchers – no surprise here, but Brian Schneider is just awful. The man is hitting .186. That is unacceptable on so many levels, especially in this day and age. He just should not be playing at all. Santos should be the full time catcher. End of story.
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
The worst thing with
Scheider is that hes
not even a very good
defense Catcher!
You can take his
offensive #s if he
was a superior defensive Catcher
since there just
are very many good
hitting ones BUT
this guys gives you
very little behind the
plate as well.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. I can’t tell you how many balls he has just flat out dropped or failed to catch over the last two years.
At the time, I thought the trade was a good one, but it hasn’t worked out for either tem obviously. He seems like a nice enough guy, but he can’t be around next year.
CaseStreet
8/21/2009-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Sorry, Omar will be the GM for the entire next yr. 100% guaranteed!
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
I don’t doubt you Case!
Well maybe he can sign
another 40y/o always
injured LFer,a broken
down former “speed”
guy @ 2B and an inconsistant lefty SP
to multi-yr contract
worth tens of millions
to improve of team for
next season.
mrbill
8/21/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
They claimed to be the “Team to beat†in 2007″ ….. And they were.
As he put it: “It takes more than one player to bring home a championship.†… And he is right.
“Yeah, for the past two years, they’ve been choke artists,†And Hamels was right.
It seems met fans are the ones obssessed with the Phillies, not the other way around.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, great point. That’s why the SS was talking about the Mets during their ticker tape parade. Great analysis.
Another guy who takes delight in being able to say “I told you so”.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Whatever….
This attitude really ticks me off…being realistic about our team and its (many) shortcomings I can see that but this hero worship of the Phillies I just don’t get it. They are the ones who do the talking about the Mets all the time and yet Met fans are the ones who are obsessed?? Gimme a break…
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
+1
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
Mets have no chance of making the playoffs this year and what do met fans do? blog about why the phillies won’t make the playoffs (even though they are in 1st place) and blog about getting “revenge”…
Can’t really complain about what other teams do/say when you do the same thing. Kind of hypocritical, no?
fongy2
8/21/2009-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
Indeed!
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
What else are we supposed to do when, as you accurately point out, we have no shot at the playoffs? The only enjoyment I’m going to have the rest of the baseball season is watching the Yankees and Phillies hopefully lose. That is not specific to the Mets fan base, any fan base whose team is out of it will spend the rest of the season rooting against their rivals. Same as in any sport.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Exactly.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
agreed 100%..as you can read above..the marlins took alot of pleasure playing spoilers against us…why all of a sudden when we are spoilers now we are hyporcirts and demonized by you guys?
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Ha! Take some time and read other blogs and see what those teams say about us before you start calling us hypocrites…our discussions are at least based on logic and understanding.
And whose complaining? You guys seem to think of those other teams as classy and dignified when in reality they go out of their way to diss us in the media..plz. Try to find a quote taht we speak ill of a team in our division…I found all those philly quotes in a matter of 5 minutes.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Not the point Dirty. The thing is the phillies say something mean (but true) re mets and met fans get offended… The phillies won’t stop talking about the mets and met fans don’t like that… But now, met fans are doing the same thing. How behaving the same way makes met fans better? at most it makes them the same.
I’ve never said the phillies are classy. I just dont understand the reaction to their comments and obssession when met fans do the same.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Because there are certian stuff you just dont say in the baseball media and the phillies crossed that line. Remember when beltran said that stuff about the pirates and laroche said that is just not somethign you say to the media..you can joke about it with your friends but you dont say that to the media. Same thing with what cole said. Now please justify the phillies gm’s comments…speaking on behalf of 4 teams. Now please justify rollins quote of reyes dancind when they are guilty of the same thing. Now justify how on their world series celebration they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to mention the mets…please tell me any team that does that. Did the redsox say that about the yankees in 2004 when they came back and won 4 straight…and that rivalry is more intense than mets/phillies.
My point is simple…how about you try to understand why philly fans feel the way they do about us when we never did anything to provoke them? Also please show me where the mets have made comments that take shots at the phillies? Who is the only one doing all the talking in this rivalry?
mrbill
8/21/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Dirty, I personally do not care for the phillies comments re mets. However, i can see why some met fans get mad about it. Again, I am not defendind what the phillies say, all i am saying is why obssessed over them by blogging about why they wont make the playoffs and/or getting “revenge”?
To me, that is behaving the same way.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
because honestly and both posts have said it…there is nothing to look foward too. This season imo is done and these posts are nothing compaired to what other sites say about us. This is just mostly all in fun as i dont really expect them to be in a position to exact any kind of revenge when we are fielding the team that we trot out every night…lol i think we would be more in a position to help teams extend their leads then anything lol
trs86
8/21/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
You obviously don’t understand the blogging atmosphere or especially this one. Many topics that we post are supposed to foster intelligent discussion and even debate. If you ask our authors if the Phillies were most likely going to win the NL East 100% of them would say yes. What Mr. NJ’s post did was provide a situation in which they would not win. That’s all. It was not a slap at the Phillies personally and we could do the same for any team. It would get any debate or discussion going if we gave reasons why the Mets won’t make the playoffs.
As for the revenge piece, it is relevant because of how the Marlins accepted the spoilers role in previous seasons. In fact their manager has spoken on those occasions about how that role is the only thing they had left and they drew pleasure out of it.
prismo
8/21/2009-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
Whatever, I don’t care.
Is it 2010 yet?
mrbill
8/21/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
More like 2011
prismo
8/21/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
Well that’s just absurd.
mrbill
8/21/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Do you really think the 2010 mets team is going to miraculously be a playoff team? please! They need at least 2 yrs to rebuild this joke of a team.
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Alright
this is getting a little
weird…
Mr.Bill
and
Mr.Met
in a
fight.
Even I
couldn’t
imagine that one 30
yrs ago.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
Mr met and Mrbill, oh nooooooooooooooooo LOL
trs86
8/21/2009-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
OK Mr. Bill. Honest answer please. IF all of our players were healthy this year, how many more wins would we have?
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
Nothing changes until
Omar and his staff
are gone!
He tried,spent ALOT
of money,we made a
run and now that run
is over.Unfortunatley
like Case said above,
the Wilpons likely
bring they’re boy
Omar back,blaming
this lost season on
just the injuries.
mrbill
8/21/2009-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
You are right and blaming this season on just injuries is totally wrong.
fongy2
8/21/2009-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
Thank you Mr.Bill
and I just want to say watching
you as a
kid on
SNL really
help form of
wide ranging
sense of
humor.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Those were some of the best yrs of SNL.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
Totally wrong? Okay…
You really think we’d be this far out if NOT for the injuries?
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
Fred? Omar? is that you?
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Bill you cant be serious??
I can understand your gripe bout murph in LF and signing ollie for this year but do you really think we would be in this spot if we were healthy?
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Dirty, I think the team was doomed BEFORE the injuries. Without them it would have been less boring to watch but in the end they would have disappointed AGAIN. Going into the season with Perez, without another starting pitcher and a bat was the set up for failure again.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
and again i understand your gripe..my point is very simple..do you belive we would be 14 games out if not for all the injures? I would invite you to look at the phillies monthly record as my reasoning that they are not that good and with a healthy team..we would be at teh least in 2nd place, well within striking distance.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
we would be at teh least in 2nd place, well within striking distance.
And would choke again as the same lineup has not been able to come through in September.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
well that would be a different senario wouldnt it mr. bill…we would be in the position to fight our way to 1st place..not fight to keep ourselves in first place. No history on that for the last few year
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Closet Philly fan? Is that you?
LOL.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
The biggest broken record there is… and way off.
fongy2
8/21/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
No,I don’t think we’d be THIS bad BUT
were we gonna be any better then last yr even if healthy?
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Yes
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Oh yeah because Perez turned out to be good and Livan has been outstanding, right? The best two pitching choices for 2009. What a joke!
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
No Fongy, I think we wouldn’t be any better. Instead of 11 or 12 games out we would have been 2-3 games out. Same difference.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
You sir, are a 1 trick pony….
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
how do you figure 12-13 games out the same as 2-3 games out going into september?
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Make that 14.5 out. Big difference than 2-3 games out. All I’m saying is we would have been a competitive team right down to the wire. Whether or not we prevailed, no one will ever know.
I guess you’re opinion is we would have failed and failing at 2 games out is the same as 14.5?
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Agree MF4D…I thought we would be competitive…at the start of the season I think our team was pretty comparable to the Phillies. With our team at 100% the Phillies are NOT that much better than the Mets. Who knows if we would have won the division but we would have made a run at it and if the injury situation was reversed who knows where the Phillies would be in the standings. After all, “heart” and “grit” only get you so far.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Dirty,
My point is a healthy 2009 roster wouldn’t have made the playoffs… the # of games out going into September would have been irrelevant. The team this year was flawed from the beginning. The injuries is just the perfect excuse to cloud everything else.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Haha – 2 or 3 games out. Uhhh, that means we are right int he middle of the playoff hunt!!!! What more do you want??? A twenty game lead going into Septembere?
trs86
8/21/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
How is that the same difference? Where would that put us in the wild card? How would the Phillies perform with 3 teams in the race chasing them? We have NO idea.
trs86
8/21/2009-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
So let me get this straight, because a team choked in 2007 and was flawed in 2008 by improper design they were destined to choke again in 2009? Wow it must suck to be you.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Depends on the off season activity.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Look, seasons such as 2006 come along very rarely. Not too often is one team going to dominate throughout the whole season.
We had a competitive team coming into this season. We would have been right in it going down the stretch. Whether or not we prevailed is just a matter of opinion at this point. We’ll never know.
Saying that 14.5 is the same as 2 games out is just, well…crazy. 2 games off the division lead is more than likely an over .500 good team. 14.5 games out is a team that stinks. Big difference.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Not only that but w/o all these injuries, and a competitive team, different moves might have been made mid season. That too changes the whole complexion of what the team would have looked like going down the stretch.
We’ll just never know…..
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Totally agree…that’s why I don’t see how anyone can say its anything other than the injuries. It affects everything when a team has this many players out for such an extended period.
fongy2
8/21/2009-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
So this team had no holes
entering the
season??
–Lineup–
#2)Castillo
#6)Church
#7)Murphy
#8)Scheider
–Rotation–
#3)Ollie
#4)Maine(returning f/
injury)
#5)Redding/
Livan.
THAT looks like
a contending
team to you??
Based on the
past 2 seasons.
darknova306
8/21/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t forget the expectation of Pelf becoming a solid #2 after only one full season in the bigs, while he increased his innings from 152.2 (minors and majors) to 200.2 last year. Yikes. Verducci is smiling right now.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
Who said we didn’t have holes?
mrbill
8/21/2009-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
metsgirl did…….”I don’t see how anyone can say its anything other than the injuries”.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
Right I did say that its the injuries but above I also said that we would be competitive…I never said we would flat out win the division but I thought at the beginning of the season, all things being equal, the Phillies were not really better than we were. Knock yourself out, buddy…
trs86
8/21/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
Are you actually saying we would not have been COMPETITIVE WITHOUT the injuries, because about 2 threads up you said we WOULD have been competitive without the injuries.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
Is that question for me?
trs86
8/21/2009-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Of course we had holes. What team does not have holes? Question is how much better would we have been with Abreu and Lowe? Especially with what transpired? How much better would we have been the next 3 years with Lowe’s ridiculous contract? But does that team look like a contending team? Hmm, was it better than 2008? Did we contend in 2008? Then yes it was a contending team. Not the best in the league but neither was any team in our division. The NL East may be the weakest division.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Saying that 14.5 is the same as 2 games out is just, well…crazy. 2 games off the division lead is more than likely an over .500 good team. 14.5 games out is a team that stinks. Big difference.
Obvioulsly you and metsgirl did not grasp what I meant by my 2 games out comment. I totally understand why you didn’t though.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
So how about you decipher that comment for those of us where it apparently went right over our heads?
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
+1
trs86
8/21/2009-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
They don’t understand it because they are capable of logical thought and can not go through life with some chip on their shoulder saying woes me.
fongy2
8/21/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Ya gotta love the personal attacks
against fellow Met fans who from
the beginning of the season were
very worried about the make up
of this team.Have things gone ALOT
worse than any of us thought?
Well yes,but again to have thought
that our big four wouldnt miss any
time(like last season),Tatis was gonna
come up huge again this season AND
that Murphy and Church would put up
numbers they never have before over
a full season didnt make alot of
sense.Additionally,Omar(and many of you) were counting on us getting the best of Ollie,Maine returning to form,
Pelf continuing to get better AND
either Livan turning back the clock
OR Redding being something he never
was PLUS Omar(if needed)making a deal
to upgrade the lineup which he didnt
do all winter using who knows what to
bring back who knows who AND ALSO…
Castillo AND Scheider not getting hurt
and returning to their #s of a few yrs
ago.AND THAT if,all these things happened this same group found the
heart they didnt have the last couple
seasons,we’d be able to compete with
the Phillies for the Division and
the National League was just wishful
thinking.And some of us are attacked
for doubting this team,its ownership
and mgmt?! Okay.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
THANK YOU FONGY!!!
fongy2
8/21/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Duck and cover!
As the attacks are
coming!
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
LOL I know!!!
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
Jeeze, guys….
I don’t remember anyone saying Church and Murph would have career years. I was happy if Church hit for average. I never liked the idea of Murph being our starting LF.
I never was happy with Redding signing either but for depth, didn’t think it was a bad idea.
I was one of the those who thought Ollie could win us 12-14 games. I had big concerns about Maine returning from surgery.
I think you two are lumping one opinion overall with most all fans. If you kept up with hot stove over the time, many had many different opinions.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Saying we would compete for the division is not the same as saying we were a World Series team…I don’t think it was delusional to think we would compete…without the injuries, of course.
darknova306
8/21/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Also need to keep in mind just how horribly we were playing our ‘fundamental baseball’ even when we were healthy. I thought the team would win about 84-85 games coming into the season, but after April that number dropped to 81. A team that can’t throw, catch, or run the bases intelligently will not win a championship, and that’s the kind of team we were when healthy.
When we get a GM that moves away from focusing on star FAs and reclamation projects, one who can build a solid complimentary foundation around the core, then maybe we’ll contend. I won’t hold my breath until somewhere around 2013.
mrbill
8/21/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Exactly Darknova! This team was not playing good baseball before the injuries ex. Jose Reyes. Agreed re 85 win team (I got killed here for saying that during the offseason)
I said 2011 but i think you might be right 2013 might be the year.
darknova306
8/21/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Well, Omar’s extension ends at the of 2012, right? That’s a pretty good indicator that we’ll be waiting for 2013…
trs86
8/21/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
How many more wins do you think we would have had with everyone healthy?
fongy2
8/21/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed!..Thank You!
5 yrs in, 5yrs of
Omar the great talent
evaluator and theres
almost nothing close
to being MLB ready coming through our
system. Wasn’t this
Omars strong suit?
If and I think its
a big if,Omar is let
go,take a good look
at the condition he’ll
have left this organization!
Wake up people!
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
I do not disagree with you there…we are in big trouble for quite some time
trs86
8/21/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
Asking you the same question, so far how many more games do you think the Mets would have won if everyone was healthy?
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
and you gotta love how you somehow feel justified in your prediction based of facts that neither of you predictied….
You both may have predicted that we would not make the playoffs but the reasons you based those prediction on…HARDLY!! is the reason why we are not going to the playoffs. If you feel content with that then im happy for you….
mrbill
8/21/2009-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
This is exactly the same discussion we had at the end of 2008. Most fans blamed the season on solely on the bullpen (that was wrong) and this year, the season is going to be blamed solely on the injuries…(also wrong).
We will never agree on these two subjects dirty…lol
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
i guess not….
sorry for blaming the bullpen who blew 29 saves while philly went on to win the division by only 3 games
sorry for blaming the injures which no team in the MLB including the phillies can relate to
we will agree to disagree…lol
trs86
8/21/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not solely the injuries that would keep us from being the BEST team in the NL. It is the injuries that are keeping us from competing in the NL. Big difference.
fongy2
8/21/2009-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll assume that wasn’t
directed to me Dirty!
Lord knows I spent far
too much time defending
myself against many of
you who claimed I was
either too pessimistic
or just plain wrong
all winter and spring.
And NO, I take zero pleasure in being
mostly right.
I’d have felt ALOT
better to have us @
71-50 and simply admit
I was flat wrong.
Ya,see admitting you
were wrong isn’t a trait of the weak.
Live a little longer,
gain a little more life
experience and some
of you who don’t
now will eventually
understand.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
lol those comments were for anyone that applies lol
but look my point is simple…whether you thought the mets would make the playoffs or not…by how many game w/e, its all irrelevent as this injury situation was completly unprecidented and by all accounts have cost us the chance to compete. Even though im sure you and several others had a conservative view of the mets chances this season, you have to admit you did not see this type of season unfolding and imo that is the reason i cannot understand how anyone can come out and be like “I told ya so…i told ya they wont make the post season”. To me its like ok but did you also predict the MAIN reason we did not make the post season this year…and chances are nobody did. Thats why if you feel justified in your assessment of the season then im happy for ya but i would not…given that nothing that i had based my reasoning for turned out to be the reason we lost
fongy2
8/21/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
No one but no
one could have seen these
injuries
coming
however
the point some of us are
trying to make
is that
the failure
of this
season goes far beyond
all the
injuries.Just like the
failures of ’07&
’08 go beyond the failings of the BullPen.
And I think the
fear some of us is that as
w/the BullPen excuse,
Ownership will use the injuries
as THE
excuse for this
seasons failures.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Well you know they will fong…thats not in debate. Unfortunatly many may be excused for it. The bullpen has been fixed and is not really teh reason why we lost this year tho fong. We can all agree that this team has many more than one hole to fix and it cannot be fixed in just one year. This has been a bad season at a bad time. I hope they clean house with alot of folkes because there is just something fundimentally wrong with this club and keeping the same people around does not seem to work…
Mr North Jersey
8/21/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with u Fongy in the sense that I too felt that while the bullpen was the main reason of our failure in 2008 we also had a problem with bringing runners home from scoring position imo and I felt we need an rbi guy and it was never addressed in off-season.
Now this season we have injuries as the main reason as to why we failed and ownership might use that as a reason to not do nothing come this off-season and say all we need is our players healthy and that too worries me.
trs86
8/21/2009-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
But the problem that I have is that you may have been right that we would not make the playoffs. However, NONE of us know if we would have without all the injuries.
udontmesswthejohan
8/21/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Your arguments are valid. I for one was wrong and/or chose to ignore/hope that things would work out. Criticizing Omar for those things is fair game. The difference is that had the Mets been even remotely healthy (meaning that the core each played around 130 games or so), then they are probably still contending right now. Now, a lot of work needs to be done for next year, but with the addition of a healthy Reyes, beltran, and Wright, I think this team still has what it takes to get it done.
As far as the personal attacks, I can’t speak for everyone, but I get annoyed when people seem to be more happy that they were right about the Mets stinking than had they been wrong and the Mets were good. That’s just my two cents.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Well said.
fongy2
8/21/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
I for one am not
happy about being
mostly correct but as I
stated above,while I
try and respect everyone here,its gets
a little tiring having
to defend yourself for
BEING RIGHT after having defended yourself for your
opinions which later
turned out to be right.
Especially against those who NEVER or
almost never admit
they were just flat
out wrong arguing(sometimes for hours)
AGAINST the opinions
which one turned out
to be right about.
mrbill
8/21/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy, Why would we be happy to say we were right about the team? I would LOVE to be wrong. Being wrong would mean the mets are a winning team and I do want to win something. So, saying I’m happy to be wrong is silly.
fongy2
8/21/2009-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Understood and agreed!
I’ve spent more time and
trouble following this team over the past 35+
seasons than anythingelse in
my life,
sad to say!
From arrangings my 1st honeymoon 22yrs
ago in
the Carribean and making
sure my
room had access to WWOR
so I wouldnt
miss a
huge 4gm
series against the Reds
to cutting out of HighSchool to see Tim Learys Debut against the Cubs
to driving
4hrs through
the snow
from Wyoming to Rapid City,SD
to find the one bar w/a satellite to see
a big gm
against the Braves
about 10
yrs in September and a
hundred
other similar
stories
to ever
feel good about being right about
anything which
was/is
detrimental to
The Mets
success.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
Then why not be optimistic from the jump instead of being “realistic” and having to be proven wrong by success? Kind of playing it both ways if you ask me….
fongy2
8/21/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
You misunderstand,Ihave been generally optimistic over the yrs about my Mets.Just that afterhaving been though so many seasons with this team I’ve learned to know the diff b/t reality and a sales job which is what Omar gave us this spring.
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
While i agree being a fan of this club humbles you greatly, i still thought even though there were ? marks for our team that we could still at the very least compete. The phillies were far from solid going in this year also dont forget. It was going to be a battle of two imperfect teams that the edge naturally goes to the phillies coming off a world championship. To say that we will lose to them because of ollie, livan and castillo i did not think it was a fair assessment but we have done our battles on metsblog already on that lol. I do agree on your assesment that our farm/team is in trouble for years to come if they dont get their act together. I do think we are entering a cycle of mediocrity(which every team goes through) where we can focus on bringing in talent but i dont really see the mets being proactive in that either.
darknova306
8/21/2009-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
Being a fan of this team for so long tempers your expectations. Though I haven’t been alive as long as Fongy, I understand where the realism comes from.
trs86
8/21/2009-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
But again Fongy you are not MOSTLY correct. You are just correct in the end. You said we would not make the playoffs, you are correct. The reasons that you supplied for us not making the playoffs can not be tested because of the injuries. We will never know if the team would have made the playoffs without the injuries.
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Ok BUT you’re missin’
most of my points while focusing
on just one or two of
them.
But,so be it.
trs86
8/21/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
Who personally attacked you? I will ban them right away. Just say the word Fongy and they are gone.
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
Slow down Matt!…
err…TRS.
No banning!
I’m a big boy with thick skin(maybe too many summers spent on
Coney Island&Brighton Beach),just stating my
case. But I appreciate
ya having my back
trs86
8/21/2009-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
No my point still remains, you are crying wolf that someone is personally ATTACKING you and NO ONE is. I really appreciate your comments on here but the last few days you have taken the approach that it’s you against the world and everyone is out to get you. That is not the case. I have see NOTHING said that would be considered offensive to you.
Yes you have to defend your position even though in the end you were correct. I could flip a coin and tell you it’s going to be heads and it turn out heads and say it will be heads no matter what. It does not work that way. We will never know if this team would have made the playoffs if everyone was healthy.
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
I wasn’t talking about today
my friend or really
most anyone
HERE.
That statement applies
more to
mattsblog since
we were
allthere
during the winter/spring.
Sorry I
didnt make that clear.
Atleast
here with the
group of 20-25
regs you guys have even if
we go at it hard,there is nothing
personal
AND on the occasion there is most everyone here realizes
it and
clears it up
right away.
mattsmith
8/21/2009-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
C’mon guys….
To say the Phillies AND their fans are “obsessed” of the stinkin’ Mets is just…. it’s (removed by Admin ) insane. Nobody cares about the “whooping… in 2006″ . I mean, I know it’s a miserable season and all and 2006 brings back happy memories, but get real guys. This is a RIVALRY! Nobody is obsessed with each other. Fans come out, they talk trash, teams fight it out on the field.
And afterwards, a certain team and fan base have bragging rights….
Obsessed? Not at all.
The Phillies have a ring. The Mets (of THIS era) do not.
I think us fans and some players (J-ROll, Cole) like rubbing it in, that’s all. Unfortunately, it hasn’t mattered much at all this year…
Mr North Jersey
8/21/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
HEY MR BILL
So there is no misunderstanding the post you referenced about “Why The Phillies won’t make the Playoffs” was done to have some fun and take actual facts and present them in a way to generate a buzz from people.
At no point in the post will you read one statement with a hint of disrespect in it.
Furthermore anyone can see that the formula that was used which was based on a date 8/18 as to why they were not making the playoffs was at best just something to have fun with not something to go out and bet money on.
I dont get it the Mets season is over so all you can do now is turn your attention to the teams in playoff hunt and as Mets fans we did just that we can look for a solver lining and exact some revenge by maybe just maybe pullin off a miracle and causin phillies to go into a losing streak that knockes em out da playoffs.
What else is there to root for?
Any other team would be doing the same thing in our shoes.
Mets fans obsessed with Phillies? cmon we just wanna give them the opportunity to choke the way they said the Mets did that’s all.
fightins
8/21/2009-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Choking is a mets thing.You guys with your big playoff apperance in 06 think thatyou were something special with that nl east title,get over yourselves.Its not like you were the yankees or the redsox.You are all talking about wanting the braves to win the division after 14 years of their dominance yeah we really want that to happen.By the way the teams to dominate the east for the next few years are the braves with their surplus of pitching and being just a few bats short, next year they are the team to beat no question.N ot the phils, not the marlins, not the mets, or that other team that plays in this division too.So next year when your all complianing again, who are you going to complian about then.Just face it the mets were not that good yeah the injuries killed you but with that pitching staff you were doomed.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
Slow day on BL?
mrbill
8/21/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
Just face it the mets were not that good yeah the injuries killed you but with that pitching staff you were doomed.
You are right philly fan… lol
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
and their pitching rotation was that much more menacing?
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve been reading your comments for over a year across two blogs. I’m firmly convinced you are a Philly fan trying to be ‘clever’ on a Mets blog.
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Ofcourse MF4D,
hence the screen name.
trs86
8/21/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, and that closet Phillies fan uh Mets fan along with his buddy Chip, I mean Alex, basically shut down a blog and caused this one. To him I am forever grateful.
trs86
8/21/2009-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
2 championships in 128 years and now you are something special too?
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
lol yea because they finally entered the realm of revelancy lol…been kinda cold for them on the outside lol
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Take it easy!
Before we lock the doors
and you get the Billy Batts
treatment,ya philly phan ya!
dirtysanchez
8/21/2009-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
I actually see the Marlins(if they can hold on to personell) being a bigger force in the years to come….
trs86
8/21/2009-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
That’s the thing Dirty you know they will never hold on to personell.
GravediggerHebner
8/21/2009-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think I ever have and I probably never will COMPLETELY agree with Mr. Bill on anything but I mostly agree with what I perceive to be his sentiment in this thread.
I mostly agree with the idea that: we once harped on the Phils odd obsession with us and now some of us seem to have developed an obsession with them.
Their is a difference, and in my subjective opinion, it is in our favor.
The Phillies and their fans displayed their obsession with the Mets at moments in time when: the Phils were at worst equal to the Mets but by most objective standards (such as they won more games, and made the post season when the Mets did not) were in fact better than the Mets. By how much we can debate til the cows come home, but over 162 games they were better.
Yet they talked about the Mets. They weren’t playing the Mets. In fact specifically when Rollins and Hamels said the things they did, they weren’t playing baseball at all. Hamels spoke in the offseason and the specific Rollins quote I am referring to occurred at a World Series celebration parade.
So at the pinnacle of their success, the Phillies were “thinking of” the Mets and speaking about them.
Now today we have the Mets, for whatever reasons you care to assign, woefully behind the Phillies. Not close to them in any way other than geography. And, about to start a 4 game series with the Phillies. So some fans of the Mets, in the context of being well behind a division rival are talking about that rival on the cusp of a series with them.
It seems to me given the disparity in the teams’ won-lost records, combined with the fact that they are about to play each other, it makes much more sense for “us to be talking about them” then it ever did for “them to be talking about us.”
So Mr. Bill, I ALMOST agree with you, their is a small element of hypocrisy in this line of thinking. But it is very small, and the fact that “we” are discussing “them” today is much more justifiable than their discussing “us” ever was.
And this does not even take into account what TRS brought up above, about this being a blog with a goal of fostering discussion and debate, so perhaps it might bring up something that not everyone agrees with and that some people feel passionately about. Rollins and Hamels aren’t bloggers.
trs86
8/21/2009-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks Grave.
I don’t like the Phillies but I am not out bad mouthing them or obsessing about them either. They are better than us and have been for almost 2 years. We have had many reasons why they are better than us but they all come back to the fact that they are better. That’s not the point. However, if the media and the Phillies players even want to make this nonrivalry (because there really wasn’t one)into a rivalry then it’s ok to hate your rival team. I mean besides geographically what reason do we have to hate the Yankee’s? Because we don’t like their fans or we have to hear about them all the time? Isn’t that the same reasons we could use for hating the Phillies? I don’t want to get along with them, LOL. I resepect the fact that their team is better, but I will never LIKE them. LOL.
And Mr. Bill, I do appreciate your support for this blog, it seems as though what we say on here has as much meritt as the Phillies players. WOW signs are good.
darknova306
8/21/2009-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
Hamels was baited into that statement by a radio guy, in my opinion. He didn’t say it until seriously prompted.
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Young, inexperienced. You would never hear Jeter being ‘bated’ into saying something he knew would going to come back to bite him.
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
They are obsessed though
with The Mets.
See,their reaction to
Pedro walking into the Philly
clubhouse with
his old Mets
equipment bag.
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Didn’t hear about that story…what happened?
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
Pedro walked into their clubhouse with his old Mets bag full of stuff fo his newly assigned locked and apparently a bunch of the Phils freaked out,demanding he immediately burn the thing right there in the clubhouse garbage.
Pedro handled it well,made light of it and the Phil broadcasters joked about it BUT c’mon!
metsgirl31
8/21/2009-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Wow…classy organization.
GravediggerHebner
8/21/2009-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
For an otherwise confident-to-cocky bunch, the Mets are like a mouse in the room that sends the Phillies jumping up onto chairs and screaming for help in every context except on the field.
They repeatedly demonstrate that they have no idea how to handle the concept of “the Mets” in every way but the most important one. I guess if they’re going to be idiot savants they picked the right thing to be good at.
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
Should have read..newly assigned LOCKER.
GravediggerHebner
8/21/2009-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, I was listening live when it happened and I don’t hold the words against him, but I do question his judgment. He could certainly have said “no comment” or “hey guys I am too busy enjoying being World Series Champion” to be thinking about the Mets, which IMO should’ve been his line of thinking anyway.
This is the thrust of my comment. These guys are at the pinnacle of success, and they’re thinking about and talking about the Mets. Why? Hamels was on NY radio so he has a reason why but he had many options of different ways to handle it and he chose the least impressive one IMO. His, but especially Rollins’ words demonstrate to me that it is more vital, more important, for them to (in Rollins case go out of your way to) paint the Mets in a negative light than it is to bask in the glow of winning it all.
There is “winning well” and then there are other ways of doing it. They consciously choose “other.”
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
I think it goes with being
in Philadelphia.
2nd rate/2nd
class city
filled with
angry wannabe
tough guys
caught b/t
the most interesting city in the world(NYC)and
the most important city
in the world
(DC).
metsfan4decades
8/21/2009-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
Ha! Interesting perspective.
Does that go along with wanting to be relevant for so many years and not being able to pull it off – now that they’re are, they just can’t let it go – can’t help themselves?
fongy2
8/21/2009-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t doubt that if they repeated this season someone would take another shot at the Mets during their parade down Broad st.