Aug 25
Good mourning fellow Mess fans.
Use this thread to discuss:
-the Mets losing 3 of 4 to the Phillies
-the impending road trip to Florida to duel with the fighting fish
-Santana potentially needing season-ending elbow surgery
-Frenchy out day-to-day (potentially longer, maybe rest of the season)
-Wagner’s likely rejection of the Mets/Red Sox trade (reported, but not officially confirmed)
-Whatever else is on your mind
MLBTradeRumors
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Last Night on the Farm - 5/20/13 { TRS in just posting the... } – May 21, 6:27 PM
115 comments
saltygary
8/25/2009-8:42am at 8:42 am (UTC -4)
If I currently played for the Mets I would stop drinking the water and run for my life. I have a family, and it would not be worth it.
prismo
8/25/2009-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
And in the most ironic baseball decision in recent memory…Billy Wagner decides he wants to remain on the Mets so that he can STAY HEALTHY.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
Funny. You can’t blame the guy for deciding to stay so he can have a better shot at free agency next year and a bigger payday by signing as a closer. If he agreed to the trade to the Red Sox, he would be stuck in the setup man’s role this year and next year. If he stays maybe he signs a 2-3 year deal with some team (which would be crazy, but you can’t fault the guy for trying). He has to think he can do better than the $8.0m next year. Even if it’s $12.0m for two years.
Also, he probably thinks he’s immune to injury now that he’s been through such a bad one. Think again, Billy. Think again.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
Well, here’s another instance of the Mets as an organization failing another player and putting his career (or at least his best pitching days) in jeopardy. Willie admitted that Santana has had this problem for some time now (at least since the All-Star Break). He said Johan hasn’t been throwing his side sessions because of it.
So, let me get this straight. The guy with another $98.5 million guaranteed dollars left on his contract for another four years with a buyout/option for the fifth has been pitching with an injured elbow for five to six weeks and this stupid ball club that is run by a lucky sperm let’s him do it!
The team was three games under .500 at that point. They were 6.5 games out of first place. During the following week or so, the team fell completely apart and he still pitched?
I just can’t do it anymore. This is the worst run franchise in the game. I hate the owner and the GM and I know this team can’t be successful under this regime. I am sick to my stomach here.
Thank you Wilpon and Omar for running one of the few teams in baseball in a big market and a huge budget in to the ground. You guys suck.
darknova306
8/25/2009-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Well, at least Omar doesn’t have a contract extension that will keep him around for 3 more years… oh wait…
charlie_s
8/25/2009-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, or a ringing endorsement (in his absolutely worst year as a baseball man) from the owner of the team in past few days…oh wait!
dirtysanchez
8/25/2009-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
i totally agree with this. There was no need for santana to be trotted out there if he was pitching hurt. Hell, everyone else was injured…whats one more. I just hope its no major issue and its better his elbow is hurting than his shoulder but the decision makers on this team is down right awful. When will we stop being a joke and taken seriously. I dont think under the management of manuel we will get anywhere. Omar at least has shown a new found respect for our farm system and wants to develop it but i feel we are in for trouble waters for some time.
trs86
8/25/2009-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think this one is on Jerry at all. It’s not like Omar and the pips did not know Santana was injured too.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
The only hope for next year is to pray that all the injured guys come back next year and stay healthy and play up to their career norms. Otherwise, it’ll be another wasted year. It seems the Mets can’t spend much in the off season and we know the farm isn’t good enough.
trs86
8/25/2009-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
Well this is a fine mess.
Santana, who knows what the hell is going on there.
Frenchy will be fine I am sure.
Wagner? Well screw you buddy.
I understand that he is looking out for his own. However, he does not have the right to determine arbitration OR if a team picks up his option. He has screwed the Mets out of a prospect so in turn to me he leaves the Mets no choice but to offer him arbitration this offseason. He is going around like it is for certain the Mets won’t. I tell you if at the risk of hurting the team there is a gentlemen’s agreement for the Mets not to pick up the option then the Wilpons and Omar should be ran out of baseball. You have to do what is right for the Mets and right now what is right is getting something out of Wagner.
dirtysanchez
8/25/2009-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
so let me get this straight…if we offer him arb, he wont take it probably because he wants to still close….so we would get a draft pick if someone picks him up right?
trs86
8/25/2009-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
Yeah but Wagner will get pissy because he won’t get as much money and some teams won’t sign him because they have to give up a top pick. Unless it’s a team with locked in pick or with a team signing multiple type A’s.
But my point is why do we care? We have to do what’s best for the Mets not what is best for Wagner. I will be done with them if they give the line of helping a player out. Screw helping the former players help the current ones.
dirtysanchez
8/25/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
I agree but the mets dont have to offer him arb right?
trs86
8/25/2009-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
No they don’t have to. They can let him walk and get nothing.
Mr North Jersey
8/25/2009-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
wags can still decline and not go
Mr North Jersey
8/25/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
strike that last comment i thought u was talkin bout going to sox.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
He has an option for next year for $8.0m and a buyout for $1.0m. What’s this talk about arbitration?
prismo
8/25/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
The Mets can (and should) decline his option, then offer him arbitration. They can do that.
trs86
8/25/2009-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, stop this helping a player out. You don’t help a player that can get you 2 picks out. You offer him arbitration and say can I HELP you move.
prismo
8/25/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
If they don’t offer him arbitration…oh god…have mercy on Fred and Omar’s souls, because there will be a special place in baseball hell awaiting them both.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, now is not the time to play nice. It’s time to fix this mess. If we want to sign a type A FA then we need to make sure we are getting picks back.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
But how does a guy that misses a year going to qualify as a Type A?
trs86
8/25/2009-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Based on 2 years and as a closer. He is a type A.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
But, it’s in the last two years (which equates to 12 months of baseball) and he was a closer for 5 months out of the last 12 months of baseball. That’s not two years of being a closer.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Again, based on their formulas he is a Type A by far.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
According to Amazin Avenue:
Eddie Bajek of Detroit Tigers Thoughts reverse-engineered the Elias Rankings last year. Eddie’s incredible work was made possible in large part due to information provided by ESPN’s Keith Law. Eddie is now providing the rankings exclusively to MLB Trade Rumors. Today’s snapshot covers the beginning of the 2008 season through August 15th, 2009. The rankings will change over the remainder of the season. Keep in mind that if players change leagues, they are ranked in their new league.
Apparently Billy will be a Type A. Unreal. How terrible must relievers be that a guy that was hurt for half the analysis period still qualifies for Type A?
trs86
8/25/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
It’s more about how broken the system is. One it values closers way too highly. Two it was agreed upon by the players union so it does not penalize injury.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Good points, TRS.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
So, pay $1.0 million to get him off the books and them offer salary arbitration.
One issue is what will the arbitrator choose for a salary if Billy accepted? I bet you it would be for around the $8.0m based on previous performance and the last five weeks of this season or so. If Billy pitches well (and with this team, he’s gonna get his chances), he’s looking at making more than the team option. That’s all assuming he accepts arbitration, which he probably wouldn’t. But, the fact is, he would get paid fairly well in the arbitration process. And, the way the Mets go about managing this team Billy would probably make more than $8.0m and get the buyout $1.0m.
Another question is what type of free agent would he be. It’s based on the last two years and will have only played in about one full year. I can’t imagine him being a Type A. If he is, then relievers in this league are terrible.
stickguy
8/25/2009-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
There are rules about how much of a pay cut they can offer in arbitration. I think they have to offer at least 9+million? In any case, close enough to the option salary to make it a worthwhile risk.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Actually there are no rules just norms. Normally you won’t see more than a 20% cut. However, after an injury that number can increase. The details were posted over on mlbtraderumors.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
Yes he is currecntly a type A http://www.scribd.com/doc/19002885/Rankings-082209
charlie_s
8/25/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
I just saw that…amazing. Great for us. Definitely force him into free agency. No other action would be in the best interest of the Mets and would constitute terrible mismanagement…d’oh!
trs86
8/25/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, worst case is Wagner accepts it and he either has to play pretty, retire or agree to a trade. If we have to trade him then we will most likely have to eat some contract but that would be worth it if we got a decent prospect.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
This link is as of Aug 22nd.
trs86
8/25/2009-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Yeah they can decline the option and then offer arbitration. Which in turn Billy would decline no matter what as he does not want to setup. It would just cost him a lot of money and some choice.
Mr North Jersey
8/25/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Scary to think but the post I did back on AUG 5TH
http://realdirtymets.com/2009/08/05/santana-where-is-our-ace-the-dirty-truth/
The final paragraph may turn out to be true after all.
stickguy
8/25/2009-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
OK, so it’s your fault.
You can hit the bricks along with Jeff and Omar!
Mr North Jersey
8/25/2009-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Only if it was that easy.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
From last night….still feel same way..Wow! Hopefully a blessing in disguise cause I mentioned it a few times how 90 mph will not cut it even with a great changeup. On one hand I am so thankful something is wrong and hope the “something†is what is effecting his velocity. On the other I hope its a quick fix, like by spring training. Seeing him on the mound throwing 94-95 would be nice!! I really pray he gets back to throwing hard…I mean we are known for getting stars well past their primes but now please dont tell me we get guys, like Johan and Krod, in their respective primes and they lose 5 mph off the fastball!! Say it aint so…remember it wasnt long ago Johan was on sportscenter every week mowing down hitters and striking out 12! geez
stickguy
8/25/2009-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
the other strange thing with the Mets is how long guys are out. 3 months for a hangnail seems to be the Mets way. Maybe that’s why they keep players playing when hurt, they know once the hit the DL they never come back!
Brett Myers is finishing up rehab starts and can be back by early September. Delgado? I think he retired and forgot to tell us, but certainly you don’t see him again.
They both had the same surgery, Delgado just had it much earlier. And I can’t believe it is easier for a pitcher to return from this!
Speaking of Myers, put him down as a dark horse FA signing this off season. Can’t imagine he wil lbe taht expensive, and he is young enough to still be primed for a few big years
Hey, when you have a tight budget, you have to think creative, right?
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
the bottom line is if we dont have the same payroll as the last couple of years then we know the maddoff thing is real. i really cant see us not…i mean after 3 straight awful years they wouldnt dare…as a life long met fan i would look at this organization as a joke and be so damn sad. but i think we will spend
trs86
8/25/2009-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
I think we will to. Especially if Santana is out.
metsfan4decades
8/25/2009-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
Delgado suffered another unrelated injury while rehabbing the hip surgery. I think it was a strained labrium – something like that. Had to shut him down for 2 weeks before he could resuming rehabbing. That’s why he’s not back yet and likely will not be.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
For an organization known for pitching..who was our last great prospect??? Dwight Gooden lol
stickguy
8/25/2009-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
you mean that panned out? Otherwise you have to consider generation K!
THere is also that Kazmir kid…
trs86
8/25/2009-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I am guessing he means guy that came through our system? Not sure what that has to do with the currect discussion though.
As for Kazmir he is nothing great right now either.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
it doesnt have to do with the current discussion…we have to follow the thread now lol dont ban me
trs86
8/25/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
No, just got confused. I thought you were linking it back to the Santana discussion some how.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Of course that panned out. Players having big time MLB success on our team…thats what I mean and Kazmir has been awful
trs86
8/25/2009-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, we have not had many. But for a while we were not drafting any SP either. Hopefully Mejia and Holt change this trend and there is still plenty of time for Pelfrey and Parnell.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
So Buster Olney just said on ESPN, maybe from earlier, both yankees and Boston saw signs of his elbow problem when the Twins put him out there in Fall of 07?? A Boston scout said Lester will win more games than Santana during the course of Johan’s contract…So TJ surgery he misses all 2010! Redsox and Yankee scouts saw his velocity down and him throwing less sliders in 07?? Did Omar?
Listen who knows if this stuff is true…i would assume it is for the most part but if he needs TJ surgery and Boston and the Yanks are right and vindicated FIRE OMAR. And I am a guy who wants Omar here next year and thinks he hasnt done a bad job but this would be too much if the 2 other big time franchises saw the signs and passed!! I mean this isnt year f-ckin 4 its not even 2 complete seasons!
trs86
8/25/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
With any pitcher signed longterm you have to assume they would miss one season due to injury. They all do, especially the elite that logged a lot of innings. The Yankee’s and Redsox were playing keep away and never really had any desire to bring in Santana because of salary AND prospects. I think Omar weighed this in what little prospects he gave up. Yes we will have to most likely play a year without Santana but that’s better than no Santana for the entire time. Do you think 2008 we would have sniffed the playoffs without Santana? And we should have this year if not for all hell breaking lose. So we may be without him next year and hopefully have a strong Santana for 2 more years after that.
Mr North Jersey
8/25/2009-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Are you kidding me? (not you JoeR,Buster)
Listen if you are going to tell me that they knew way back then that his elbow was suspect so that is why they didn’t trade for him that is a all out joke. For one they made offers for him it was just the twins liked the Mets better. 2nd Santana when traded had a great season last year and a greater 1st half this year before the injury situation started and we are still pending results what is wrong. he can just be experiencing tendinitis for all we know. If any Yankee or Sox or now a year and a half later say you see we told you so then that is the ultimate BS move to save face with fans and have them forgive them for not getting him way back then.
Buster Olney I hope painted this side of the story but I would not be surprised if he did not also.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
i hear ya…but if we were in the thick of things and a race would santana be cutting it at 89-90?? I mean its not even 2 complete seasons!! yes he was great last year but if he is out next year then idk it just sucks…lets hope hes ok somehow otherwise next year will be horrible for us..maybe not pelf could be our number 1 lol
trs86
8/25/2009-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
I am sure that would force the Mets hand on this offseason you might see Murphy and Fmart but you would have another top pitcher. They wanted a #2 before this.
And what I don’t get is why you guys are saying that Santana used to throw in the mid to upper 90′s. That’s just not true. Maybe he dialed one up here or there but his highest average for his FB since 2002 was in 2006 at 93.1. For his career it’s at 91.7. This year it is down to 90.5. Down but hardly 5mph down.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=755&position=P
trs86
8/25/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
What is however more troubling is that he is using his change much more and his slider much less. FB has stayed the same.
JoeR
8/25/2009-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
oh really…ok thanks that makes me feel better,,interesting. i could have sworn he would hit 94 regularly.
trs86
8/25/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Take a look at this one too.
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=755&position=P
trs86
8/25/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
It would not be helpful for Buster’s goals if he told the other side.
There is nothing to the fact that the RSox and Yankee’s knew Santana could be injured. And if they did know something you can’t tell me that Omar and the Mets did not know. The Yankee’s did not want to offer their top prospects because they were trying to build their farm and knew they could just wait and get someone in FA. The RSox had no need for Santana at the time anyway and were just blocking the Yankee’s.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
So with this news, IF Santana is out next year. What do we do? To me we have to go for Lackey, he is the best available and will cost the most. Then I still think we need to bring in a guy like Wolf.
So Lackey, Pelfrey, Wolf, Perez and Guy from incredible depth of #5 starters.
But also that means that you will have to upgrade the offense. Murphy and Pagan/Fmart are not going to cut it regardless of Santana but even more so then. Go out and do something like Crawford and Pena. The Rays would like to unload Pena’s salary and get some return for Crawford. It’s worth the gamble as those 2 could become part of the future of the Mets.
Reyes, Crawford, Beltran, Pena, Wright, Frenchy, Santos, Castillo is not bad. It does not have to be those names, we could still go out and pony up for AGonz and then sign Figgins. That would not hurt our budget. Figgins and AGonz combined won’t make but around 14 and then 15 on Lackey puts us into budget.
However, if these non sourced reports are true that we will cut payroll and on top of Santana’s injury then uhmmm we may need a new blog.
JoeR
8/25/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
I give you so much credit for that post because if he’s out next year I give up!!
prismo
8/25/2009-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
If Santana’s out for 2010, it’s more than likely a lost season. We’re kidding ourselves if we think a team without an ace and with an average lineup will make the playoffs.
trs86
8/25/2009-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Just depends on what they do. For years we did not have an ace and were competitive. Unless you count Glavine as an Ace.
prismo
8/25/2009-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
But they also need a #2. With the farm system in its current state and an expected payroll either similar or slightly less than in 2009, you really think the Mets can find two good starting pitchers, bench players, a LF/1B, and a C?
Remember your post about how, if executed perfectly, Omar could make a competitive team in the off season? Try calculating that again with an extra #1-#2 starter in the mix and see what you come up with.
trs86
8/25/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Yes I do. I remember Glavine and the scrubs being competitive in 2006 and 2007.
metsgirl31
8/25/2009-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
The beauty of baseball is that ya just never know…sometimes a team with no expectations whatsoever can do things just surprise us all.
prismo
8/25/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
But we’re not supposed to be a team with no expectations! This is a team with one of highest perennial payrolls in the MLB!
I already root for the Knicks! COME ON! :p
metsgirl31
8/25/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Lol…I understand but with (heaven forbid) Johan out next year we would probably be a team with no expectations…believe me I feel your pain and the only reason I said that was cuz I am trying to not lose it myself today with this latest news.
tkfj
8/25/2009-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Prismo you are exactly right. I don’t see how the GM can possibly fix this mess in 1 season. It isnt going to happen. We have numerous holes to fill and injuries that we will have to hope don’t cripple us for next year. I can honestly see us being better than this season, thats not saying much, because our injured superstars should be back, but I don’t know how anyone at this point can have any faith in the GM.
JoeR
8/25/2009-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
this johan news changes everything. if he is ok for next year we can do it. we have money to spend, and lets just assume we will have same payroll because nothing tells us we wont, despite the rumors. we need a number 2 and a couple of power bats. one may do until the trade deadline, etc. its very possible not that bleak. but johan is out forget it
whataputz
8/25/2009-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
There are a ton of holes, but the Mets have the tools (And the key is a healthy Beltran and Reyes..and I guess now Johan!) to be a very good team. Reyes Wright Beltran are good building blocks of a line-up. Obviously we cannot fill al holes, but I would like to see the Mets try to bring in a power outfielder, bengie molina (he just has mets written all over him), and this is my dream and I know it won’t happen, but try to acquire a number 2…and a consistent 4 like a wolf type pitcher. Unfortunately that leaves this bullpen to sink or swim on its own, but maybe they can try a couple of cheap solutions.
And if Delgado can be had for cheap, or Vlad..they gotta pull the trigger. I know they’re risks, but if they’re cheap, they can be incredibly productive, and it would free up other money. I don’t really like the idea of overpaying for a guy like a Bay and giving them 6 or 7 years. However I’d give Crawford all the years he wanted.
JoeR
8/25/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
almost totally agree. i am not sold delgado wont be productive. it would be very helpful to see him swing a bat soon lol only issue i have is the sink or swim bullpen comment. is that the area with our recent collapses we should roll the dice on? maybe we have to though i agree
tkfj
8/25/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Point is do you trust Omar to spend our money wisely so that we could possibly contend next season. I can’t say I do.
whataputz
8/25/2009-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
Well, I am more in the boat of hoping he doesn’t make any rash stupid moves like make Bay the next 100 million dollar 10 year player. I think the best approach is a cool head and not panicking because it might be his last offseason…plus what makes you so sure omar will be back? what because the Mets said he would..when has that ever meant anything? Reyes is day to day, Delgado will be back in mid August..no need to drag it out.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
I am now, more than ever, in favor of a salary cap. This has completely gotten out of hand.
whataputz
8/25/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Now? What took you so long? After watching the Yankees destroy baseball with their spending, I’ve been in favor of a 200 million salary cap for years. I know its alot of money, but at least its some kind of stop gap for the bankees.
JoeR
8/25/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
interesting how the angels are so damn good. they also suffered alot of injuries to very key players and somehow only managed to have like the 2nd best record in baseball!!! lol
charlie_s
8/25/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Well, to be fair, I said, “now, more than ever.” In other words, I have been all along, but my interest in a salary cap is at an all time high.
There's Always '10
8/25/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
The funny thing is if you mention payroll to Yankee fans, they say two things:
1) Their payroll this year is no higher than it was last year. Even after signing Sabathia, Tex, and Burnett – as if their payroll wasn’t out of control last year.
2) The Mets spend money too. The Mets spend money, but the gap in payrolls would be Texeira, A-Rod, and CC…in addition to our case of D-L Stars.
whataputz
8/25/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
My response is always this. Go look at the yearly payrolls of each team, unbiasedly, and from a pure numbers standpoint, analyze and understand truly how big of a gap the Yankees have in payroll compared to any other team.
i know its America and you can make however much money and spend however much money you want, but when you casually add 400 mil on 3 players in 1offseason after a 90 win season! That is ridiculous. The Marlins have 2 rings in their existence..have they even spent a combined 400 mil in their existence!
trs86
8/25/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
OK and have the Yankee’s been any more successful than a lot of the teams behind them in payroll? You can’t buy a championship, you can however buy the playoffs.
whataputz
8/25/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
They take talent away from other teams. Burnett could have helped another team. The Yankees didn’t need Burnett, real teams can’t afford to add two aces. Lets say the Yankees had a normal payroll and Burnett went to ATL, it would have made a difference. While the Yankees buying of players has not necessarily won them a championship, it’s pretty much sealed the wild card to the al east, and takes talent away from other teams consistently, FA’s leverage the Yankees to get obnoxious money. Their impact has been terrible on baseball.
trs86
8/25/2009-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Well that makes one of us. I want nothing to do with a salary cap. All baseball needs is a requirement to spend money. A lot of these small market teams make as much profit as the largemarket teams.
charlie_s
8/25/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Well, a floor should be in place along with a ceiling. And, I think a cap should be in place to protect teams from themselves (trying to buy themselves out of a ditch and only digging themselves deeper). The game has been trivialized in so many cities. Just think about how it feels to have a non-competitive team this year. And, now put yourself in the shoes of a Pirates fan or any other team that has zero chance of winning the WS in March.
Of course, a salary cap will never happen for one very important reason: unlike the NFL, MLB does NOT derive the bulk of its revenue from centralized sources (FOX, CBS, ESPN, NBC) that gets put into one big pot. The local TV/radio revenues in baseball go directly to the teams and thus some teams will always have more to spend than others and it would be patently unfair to make them put the revenue in a central pot to be shared equally among teams. Especially because it would be even more unfair to the fans, who give these local networks the audience that leads to the revenue that goes to the rights fees that go to the individual team.
It’s a bad system that needs a radical change that will never happen.
trs86
8/25/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
They don’t have to have 0% chance of winning. The Marlins and Rays are great examples.
sabermetrician
8/25/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
No floor unless this floor considers all aspects of team development, not just major league roster. Marlins are a terrific example of why no floor should be in place for ML roster spending.
sabermetrician
8/25/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
No salary cap. Parity is as good as it’s been in years. More unique MLB teams have won the WS in the Super Bowl era than NFL teams have won the Super Bowl.
Look at the 2000s WS appearances:
Phils
Rays
Red Sox x 2
Rockies
Cards x 2
Tigers
White Sox
Astros
Marlins
Yankees x 3
Angels
Giants
Diamondbacks
Mets
14 unique teams out of a possible 18. This is a tremendous distribution, it’s not being weighed down by mediocrity, nor is it top heavy.
There are numerous metrics you can turn to in order to show that parity is strong in the MLB right now. Please no salary cap, “capitalism” is superior to “socialism.”
trs86
8/25/2009-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Hey we agree on something. There is no way to take the advantage away from large market teams. And for that matter why should we? Damn do we even have to make baseball communist?
Kingman 26
8/25/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Do you guys have an even remote understanding of what the words “communist” and “socialist” actually mean in the real world?
And the salary cap has indeed kept the NFL a place where not only is there great parity–and an unabashed love of capitalism–but teams from places like Pittsburgh and Green Bay can dominate along with the Bostons and New Yorks.
trs86
8/25/2009-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Uhm, yes. It was bascially a joke but I am a social studies teacher. LOL.
But if you look at the NFL and NBA and MLB the large market teams still have an advantage. Looking at Saber’s stats, do we not have distribution of teams?
And how is a larger body keeping someone from spending money exactly capitalism? If people like that teams product then they will generate money.
Kingman 26
8/25/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I guess I just get blown away by what people call socialist and communist in the current ridiculous political environment…it is precisely analagous to the wackos who called everything fascist and nazi from 2001–2009….just nutty and not real world.
If the billionaires who run baseball decide to share their revenues more equally, what on earth does that have to do with socialism? The extra money shared would not be going to build schools or pay for health care or fix roads, it would be going to lesser teams, and then directly into the pockets of multimillionaire players or directly into owners’ bank accounts.
And the larger body preventing extra spending is not being socialist in the NFL’s case—they simply realize–as do many economists and historians–that capitalism works even better sometimes with some limits. Hence, the NFL, with the salary cap and the most rules in this regard, is far and away the most popular AND the most profitable team sport in the US.
This ain’t socialism.
trs86
8/25/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
It also helps that football is only played once a week and has a tremendous following that can support only playing once a week.
But in terms of a governing body placing limits on spending in order to provide well being for the lesser groups in an attempt to make everyone equal? Well…
sabermetrician
8/25/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
Socialism as used above is a redistribution of wealth. Using the broad definition of socialism it need not be government based. In this case it would not be. Do we have an idea of the definitions of socialism and capitalism? TRS spoke for himself, I myself have a Master’s degree and am certain that I have a very good grip on the definitions of words I use.
Kingman 26
8/25/2009-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
So to you, MLB collecting money from the Steinbrenners and sending it to an owner like KC’s David Glass, a very wealthy ex-Walmart exec, who puts it right in his bank account, this is socialism??
sabermetrician
8/25/2009-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
Most of socialism and communism has resulted in bourgeois becoming wealthier. If you don’t know that then you’re not very well educated.
And did you ever notice that my words were in quotes???
sabermetrician
8/25/2009-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
TRS – Mark down the day that we agreed on something. We’ll see how long until it occurs again.
stickguy
8/25/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
The number of holes to fill this off season is exactly why I harped last off season tht Omar should try and get a head start. Now, that was mostly around the idea of pushing all his chips in to make a run at Teix, and trading Delgado for some pitching (or other) help, but there were other ways to accomplish the same goal.
If (speculativley) Santana will miss next year, no way they can add 2 top rotation guys.
Looking at it from a different angle, losing santana (and I sitll don’t know where the year comes from, unless everyone is assuming TJ surgery) gives them a somewhat unique opportunity to do a partial rebuild 9retool?)
That is, they hide behind the ace being out to plug in a couple of the rookies to learn on the job. Yeah, they might be writing off 2010 (but who knows), but the logic is that the guys getting broken in will be better in 2011, and with Johan back healthy, they will have a really good team.
Not that losing Johan neccessarily dooms them to mediocrity. 2006 they had not much SP. All they really need is 1 good new guy (say, lackey), and for a couple of the incumbants to step up (say Pelf and Maine) and the rotation sans Johan would overall be better than what they had this year.
Then, win with offense and BP!
There's Always '10
8/25/2009-11:38am at 11:38 am (UTC -4)
I can see how we can win with offense. Especially when Sheff (our leading HR hitter) is going to leave. Who is our team leader in RBI?
stickguy
8/25/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
well, I assume the team leader in HR and RBIs for 2010 is either on the DL currently, or will be acquired in the off season.
If the leader in either catagory is on the current active roster, then G help us, unless Francour has a miracle 35/125 season in him.
Kingman 26
8/25/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
Wright or Beltran, who each get 100+ every year????
whataputz
8/25/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
And Jose freakin Reyes! The Mets have a good team, but good is not enough.
trs86
8/25/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t you think that Wright given a better team and teams not pitching around him would still have 100+ RBI considering how many he has had? Do we forget the fact that Beltran was leading the league in hitting before he went down?
tkfj
8/25/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
New York Mets pitcher Johan Santana’s injury won’t require surgery, sources say
Source: ESPN
Please let this be true.
prismo
8/25/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Hubbuch says “Contrary to an ESPN report, surgery has not yet been ruled out”…”it would most likely be of the ‘clean-up’ variety.”
That’s welcome news, I guess.
whataputz
8/25/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
As most Mets injury news, I am not putting any hope into any possible theory until it has actually happened. i take this news with a grain of salt.
whataputz
8/25/2009-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
And you know what.. the fact that it’s not a serious injury is kind of alarming. He has not been Johan for a great portion of this season.
trs86
8/25/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Actually having a minor issue could really mess things up as much as a major issue. He may have some tissue issues or even a bone spur.
Kingman 26
8/25/2009-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely true, as the historical example of Dizzy Dean shows—-if one has a small injury, one might change other things in one’s mechanics to compensate, and then cause an even worse injury.
whataputz
8/25/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I actually think a huge key to the Mets offseason is whether or not Pettite returns. If he doesn’t..you can cros either Lckey or harden off the list. Plus for some reason I just see Red Sox written over Lackey. The Mets might need to explore the trade market if they want acquire a solid #2 pitcher.
prismo
8/25/2009-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Oh you guys are gonna LOVE this:
Bart Hubbuch on twitter “Johan Santana had discomfort in his left elbow in spring training but the Mets declined to give him an MRI exam at the time.”
Yep.
metsfan4decades
8/25/2009-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
No, that’s not true. The Mets did schedule that MRI in ST. Had Johan booked on a flight from FL back to NYC for it. The day it was scheudled we had snow up here in the NE. Johan himself cancelled that MRI saying, he didn’t need it, he knew his body, it was just normal elbow soreness he has practically every ST until he gets going. I’m sure hanging around an airport waiting for clearance for the plane to take off probably had something to do with it too – lol.
I remember this distinctly. The Mets were erroring on the side of caution with that and Johan made the final decision.
metsgirl31
8/25/2009-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
Yes I believe you are correct in your recollection on this.
udontmesswthejohan
8/25/2009-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah you are right.
Look, let’s just hope there is nothing serious and this gives them a valid reason to shut him down for the rest of the season.
prismo
8/25/2009-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
You guys should check out the front page of TRDMB.