As John Maine attempts to comeback from his mysterious illness I have let my mind wander over to the dark-side. Ultimately I want John Maine to do well and comeback strong as the #3 starter that when healthy I believe he can be. However, as I think about the fact that this organization has a habit of believing small samples over large wholes I am very concerned with what happens next. If John Maine, who is fresh after not pitching for months, comes back relatively pain free and has success I feel the team will pencil him into the rotation. That means no improvement for the starting staff as in my opinion like it or not Pelfrey and Perez have locked spots behind Johan. I also imagine that one of Nieve or Niese will be the 5th starter. So if Maine looks good the Mets will pencil him in as #4 and we will be frustrated again come next September. So that dark-side of me wonders if it would be better for Maine to get rocked the rest of this year and spend the off-season trying to get things right while the Mets bring in an accomplished starter to take his place. Then maybe if he can prove himself healthy in ST he can compete for the #5 spot with Nieve and Niese.Â
Am I bad for wanting Maine to fail the rest of THIS season?
72 comments
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Initially I’d say trade Maine to the Rays for Pena. Then I remember it’s the Mets we’re talking about and we really should be making a 8 man rotation.
So, keep Maine but also go after a #2.
Rotation should be Santana, #2, Perez, Pelf, Maine. w/ Niese getting the callup when someone goes down.
halfmanhalfamazin
9/15/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
First time poster here…if the Maine for Pena deal is at all possible I think Omar would have to pull that. Personally, I think the guy is a true competitor and I love the movement on his fastball, but what have you done for me lately? A good (not great) ’06 and ’07 doesnt guarantee you a spot in the rotation in 2010 does it? Shouldn’t he be competing with Niese and Nieve for the 5th
starter? These guys have bigger upsides, especially young Niese. Just don’t feel at this point he should be locked in anywhere, even when he is healthy. If he desserves it, let him earn it.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Welcome, should I call you the M-E-T-H-O-D MAN or Nasty Nas?
I’m a big fan of Maine’s 4 seamer, too. Love to see batters strike out on the high fastball.
I’m mostly concerned with how effecting Maine will be coming off of yet another surgery.
Don’t know what’ll it take to get Pena, could be Maine, but would anyone be interested in a SP coming off of surgery? Not so sure.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-5:32pm at 5:32 pm (UTC -4)
Welcome aboard halfmanhalfamazin your our 2nd recruit of the day. Enjoy our community and looking forward to reading your comments in the future.
fongy2
9/15/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Sort of a big assumption that if Maine is let to walk away we’d get someone better.
No???
Theres simply not much quality pitching out there and what is would cost ALOT…
Prospects and/or money…Neither of which we have.
You just don’t let a guy like this,at his age,with that arm,coming of what isn’t a very serious
injury walk away. You just don’t do it. Makes no sense.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
that’s funny cuz from I gather from MC, it’s a buyer’s market for SPers
stickguy
9/15/2009-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
you can buy all the crap that you want. There is just a serious lack of decent guys.
metsfan4decades
9/15/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
I have to agree with this.
If healthy, Maine has good stuff. Whether it’s the stuff that can ever get him past the 5th inning, remains to be seen.
stickguy
9/15/2009-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
he was getting there. It was the shoulder that pushed him back. If he could have sepnt 2008 doing side sessions to work on that one more pitch (cutter, sinker, curve, whatever) instead of reesting his shoulder, and 2009 doing it instead of rehab, I think he may have been able to add it by now!
stickguy
9/15/2009-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
I am scared. I agree with Fongy.
trs86
9/15/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Fongy, I never said let him walk. I said not to count on him for #2. My comment was to bring him in to compete for the #5 spot but don’t depend on him for a spot in the rotation and end up with what we have this year.
fongy2
9/15/2009-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
I didn’t say you did, Trs86.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
I think t is safe to say Maine is not guaranteed nothing in 2010 unlike Ollie where the Mets are locked into due to his huge contract Maine can be easily moved if the Mets can find a better starter to replace him.
Maine even if he pitches well his net 2 starts has to know he can be replaced in a heartbeat if the Mets ever get a better starting pitcher so there is no need to hope he ptches badly cause the outcome will be the same regardless.
Fongy usually makes good opinions here it is just that sometimes his way of stating how he dislikes the current state of the team can be hard to read.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Question is do we go into next year DEPENDING on him. That is my entire point. IF we are depending on him as a #5 then I am fine with it. To depend on him to be a midrotation starter when there are options would be foolish, and perhaps normal Mets thought.
metsgirl31
9/15/2009-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
I agree that depending on him as a #5 starter would be more realistic. But “normal Mets thought” says he may be depended on to be more than that.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
It’s safe to say Mets are not depending on him rather hoping he can find his form if they are unable to find a better solution this off season.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
But what if he finds his form the rest of the year. Are you confident they won’t say, he’s healthy, he’s our number 3?
metsgirl31
9/15/2009-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
I’m not confident they won’t do that…in fact I have a feeling that’s exactly what they’ll do. Scary…too much unknown.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
like I said b4 I think it is safe to say Maine is not guaranteed nothing in 2010 regardless of how ell he pitches in 2009.
metsfan4decades
9/15/2009-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
My opinion is we go after that #2 starter, no matter how Maine fares the rest of this month.
As you said we’ve got Johan, Pelf and we’re stuck with Perez.
So Johan/#2/Pelf/Perez and let Maine/Niese/Nieve and whoever else compete for the 5th spot.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
I thought Pat Nisch has signed a 10 year contract to be the 5th starter or was that Nieve?
metsfan4decades
9/15/2009-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
10 year contract?
Hey, we can add Pat Misch to the mix to compete with that 5th spot in ST. I think he’d be a long shot but you never know. I’d keep Misch, long man in the BP, at the very least.
I’m tired of carrying several pitchers who can only pitch to one side of the plate. I can’t get many to agree with me, but I think the mindset should be to have more than one long man out there. Heck, have one closer, one lefty specialist, and the rest who can go more than one batter or one inning. Stokes can be the 8th inning set up guy AND a long man.
Parenell, in my opinion, is light years away from being a starter, if ever. Add him to the BP mix and if he ever figures it out, make him the set up guy.
darknova306
9/15/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
Parnell is 1 quality and 1 decent off-speed pitch away from starting. I don’t even want him in the pen at this point. Way too many baserunners.
Stokes hasn’t been a strictly bullpen guy until this season, if memory serves me. We should be able to stretch him out during ST to be able to go multiple relief innings, maybe even a spot start if the rotation becomes a mess sometime.
stickguy
9/15/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
TRS, you are wrong to hope he bombs. Wrong, Wrong wrong!
Sorry, I owed you a couple….
anyway, I hope he shows that he is sound. The Mets need him. I also don’t think that Maine looking like he wil lbe OK will prevent them from trying to add a solid rotation guy (although who knows if they plan to, or will be able to).
besides, who is this mythical solid #2? More likely, you get a guy like Marquis, that is an OK SP that is generally reliable to make his 30 starts and put up OK #s.
But, Maine was already that guy, or better. If anything, his numbers from 2007-mid2008 when the shoulder took him down were easily what this #2 guy would do (ERA in the mid-upper 3s), considering he was just entering his prime.
so, it is a no brainer to pay him the 3mill or whatever. But I agree they should cover their arses and get another healthy SP, a 2 or 3, whatever.
then they don’t have to guarantee (or count on) any 1 guy to fill a particular niche. Just go with the pool of pelf/perez/maine/neise/neive/whoever else shows up to fill out the 3-7 spots in the rotation, with someone in AAA and maybe a couple in the pen.
So I guess I am saying sign him, and if they can get fresh blood, do that too. SHouldn’t be mutually exclusive, since even if you pencil in pelf/ollie/maine, there is still an open spot, so worst that happens is you clog up Neise’s spot until someone goes down (and they will!) COming off hammy surgery, having to start him in AAA sounds like a fine plan to me.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
I carefully did not say #2 but an accomplished starter. Big difference. I just don’t want to depend on Maine as a key to the rotation. Sloting him 5th with a lot of backup guys is fine.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Example, Wolf or Washburn get left out and only cost 5-8M again. Would you feel so comfortable with Maine that you don’t get one of those two? Are you slotting in Maine and Niese/Nieve/Misch or having a competition of all of them for the last spot?
wannybackstra
9/15/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Meanwhile, Wolf has had some left elbow problems recently. His performance/health the rest of this season should be monitored closely given his history.
fongy2
9/15/2009-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! I wanted no part of Ollie for 3/36 BUT
Although I liked Wolf,his injury history made me
nervous as well. This was my point with Ben Sheets
as well.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Cubs poss. shopping Zambrano. Any takers?
fongy2
9/15/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Not the Wilpons!…See Bernie Madoff.
trs86
9/15/2009-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy, we still have NO proof that the Wilpons will lower payroll. Will they choose to spend what they have on Zambrano? I have no idea. But until a Mets offical comes out and says or we start the next year WITH a lower payroll I have to assume it will be the same.
Would we consider a trade of Castillo and a couple of prospects for Zambrano? Cubs need a 2B and leadoff hitter.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
nice idea. didn’t cross my mind. problem is the Mets don’t have a 2B, unless you want to see A. Hern out there every day.
JoeR
9/15/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
If we get a number 2 starter I am fine with all the underachieving boys which includes Perez, Pelfrey, and Maine giving it another shot in 2010. I feel the way you do about Murphy. I would hate to see him get ridiculously hot the last few weeks of the season and be penciled in as the 1B. I actally hope he slumps so Omar trys to figure out an upgrade. Yes I guess if we get a power LF and a number 2 we could roll the dice on Murph which i guess would be fine. Omar and Manuel know their respective careers are on the line so putting your fate in Murphys hands like they did this year I doubt will be an option.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Agred, Murphy is one of my prime examples of how the Mets already do this. Thole would be another guy that maybe the Mets say he’s ready and then he and Santos both fall on their faces. I don’t want an expensive guy at catcher, just a vet to go with Santos.
metsfan4decades
9/15/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Reading over on the other blog, MC states many misinterpreted an earlier post that he wanted to trade Reyes. He based this, among other things, on numerous comments on his Twitter feed. So…you don’t have to audition to join that??
Referring to the quote from his recent blog below, makes me wonder if – along with not reading comments, he has time to watch the games anymore either. Anyone watching the game knows Murph was called out at third to end that inning trying to advance on a passed ball, not a steal. And in that situation, not sure I’d want him stealing either. However, he had no chance in hell of making it on that passed ball.
‘…it’s no secret, the Mets have been playing sloppy baseball all season… during their last game, on Sunday, Daniel Murphy had an outstanding at bat in the eighth inning, digging out a two-out double, only to end the inning by getting caught trying to steal third base…’
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
why should MC have to pay attention to the details? He’s the Wizard of Oz.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
I think it is that he does not know baseball terminology or maybe sloppy as well. In his mind he was stealing 3rd because OF the passed ball.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
no, he’s said he pitched in HS or something like that. It’s sloppy not proof-reading your work and mental when you don’t trust anyone to help out.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
and disrespectful when you don’t read the comments.
It’s like here, read what I think, but I don’t care what you think.
trs86
9/15/2009-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on the fact that over the last 18 months he seems to have developed this impression that he is no longer a blogger but a Mets official.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Another question that has not been mentioned. Mets need a setup man, could Maine enter in that mix to compete with Parnell and Stokes and thus save the Mets money?
metsfan4decades
9/15/2009-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Sure, why not? I’m all for that. Depending on the starting 5 next year, I’d say the one place we should have some good depth is alternates starters/BP.
trs86
9/15/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, a bullpen of Misch, Parnell, Stokes, Maine, Krod, Feliciano, Green (ugh, most likely) will at least solve the problem of who to call up for a spot start. No need just go the old start by committee approach.
wannybackstra
9/15/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not too comfy with that pen either.
Stokes was really exposed during a stretch in which he was actually pitching high leverage innings. I like his stuff but for some reason he doesn’t strike anyone out. 38 K and 33BB in 60 innings (give or take) is atrocious.
And he still gets lit up by lefties to a 923 OPS.
And maybe I’m nuts but relief pitchers are enigmatic and this might be the right time to trade Feliciano while his value is high and let someone else deal with his extreme workload from the last few years. It would not surprise me, in fact I expect his shelf-life to expire soon. (in retrospect, he would have been a goo dtrade candidate at the break).
trs86
9/15/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Problem is we have no replacements for Pedro so until he flops he IS our best option.
wannybackstra
9/15/2009-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
Right now we don’t.
But by April maybe we will.
trs86
9/15/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
But are you trading him in April? Unless you are just going gamble that you can replace him?
wannybackstra
9/15/2009-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Gamble.
Relief pitchers are mostly crap shoots anyway.
trs86
9/15/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
In that case I wholeheartedly disagree. Gambling on the bullpen cost us a championship.
wannybackstra
9/15/2009-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
You think that between now and July of 2009 they can’t get hold of a relief pitcher?
Holding on to guys too long is problem good teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox avoid.
I wouldn’t just dump him. But if I thought I could find a reasonable replacement, I’d flip him elsewhere in a heartbeat. Relivers just don’t pitch 80 games year after year and maintain effectiveness.
I think they could find relief pitchers if they tried. Remember, they didn’t try in 2008 until it was too late.
trs86
9/15/2009-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, based on our past I can almost bet they would not be able to find anyone before July, during July or after July. Sorry. LOL.
I am just too afraid to trade Pedro. We did not bring back Oliver or Bradford because we assumed they would go down hill. Oliver it was a very bad idea and Bradford got injured so again who knows. Maybe if someone develops DURING next year you can trade Pedro?
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
could have one in Roy Merritt, who won awards in AA.
stickguy
9/15/2009-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
adam bostick should be in the mix too.
trs86
9/15/2009-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
Bigger question is why he was not called up this season anyway.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
maybe cuz he wasn’t on the 40 man.
trs86
9/15/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
True, but it’s not like we don’t have room with all the injured guys still on it.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
Bostick is another journeyman pitcher let’s face it you can make an argument for any pitcher that had a era below 4.00 for being called up to the bigs but in reality odds are while he may have been ok is most likely just a revolving door of mediocre pitchers.
trs86
9/15/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
I would not say Bostick is a journeyman pitcher YET. We are just his 2nd club and he is only 26 years old and LH. Sometimes it just takes LHP a while to develop. Also, after sending him to the pen he has had success. It is very possible that he, like Parnell, was just made for the pen. Time will tell but I do think he has to be in the mix.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Bostick is in his 8th season in the minor leagues he is in his 4th season at AAA if he had anything to show odds are you would of seen it by now.
Yes he may be a late bloomer it would not be the 1st time that happened but while we are his 2nd club the guy has been around the minors for a while now Lefty or not odds are that he is what his record suggests.
trs86
9/15/2009-8:09pm at 8:09 pm (UTC -4)
You are right that he has been around for a while. I am willing to hope that this season, his first as just a reliever has been a revelation for him.
metro
9/15/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets literally have 1 starting pitcher we can count on in 2010 and even he is coming off of surgery (Santana). Considering the likely budget cuts, non-tendering Maine would be a terrible decision. It is going to be hard enough finding 1 pitcher within our budget(forget Lackey and probably Harden) so “giving away” potential pitching would really hurt. Worst case, you move Maine to the 8th inning. It’s not as if Parnell was lights out in that role before starting.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
welcome to TRDMB,
I agree w/ everything except the likely budget cuts. We don’t know that’s true.
Mr North Jersey
9/15/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
Welcome aboard Metro looking forward to reading more comments from you in the future.
fongy2
9/15/2009-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
Pelfrey cant be counted on??
darknova306
9/15/2009-5:23pm at 5:23 pm (UTC -4)
Sure… about as much as Ollie can.
trs86
9/15/2009-8:12pm at 8:12 pm (UTC -4)
Counted on for a slot in the rotation? Sure. Counted on to be a solid midrotation starter, not so sure. Definite maybe?
darknova306
9/15/2009-5:31pm at 5:31 pm (UTC -4)
Welcome aboard.
I agree with you 150%! The pitching staff is one of my biggest worries for next year. Santana is there, but everyone else is a gigantic question mark, if even worthy of a look.
Parnell can’t keep guys off the basepaths cause he has no secondary pitches that actually work. 4.6 BB/9, 1.67 WHIP… yikes. That’s not setup man or starter material. Tell him to bring a couple secondary pitches that aren’t garbage into Spring Training, then we’ll talk.
trs86
9/15/2009-8:11pm at 8:11 pm (UTC -4)
Welcome Metro, we shall keep our secret about your future for now. I agree on Maine having to comeback, I just don’t want to depend on him. We would be foolish not to bring him back considering he is talented and cheap. I really like the 8th inning idea, actually saves us money if he shifts to setup and we don’t have to bring an expensive setup man.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-9:03pm at 9:03 pm (UTC -4)
spoiler alert
trs86
9/15/2009-9:10pm at 9:10 pm (UTC -4)
I am married, I know all about teases.
fongy2
9/15/2009-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
just afriendly heads up on Roy Merritt, saw him twice this season…
Hes a soft tossing Lefty side armer. So, I wouldn’t be expecting anything
at all from him anytime soon,if at all.
Fast ball in the mid 80s and throws a change in the mid 70s.
Sort of a poor mans Feliciano or Mike Myers..remember him??
AND NO…Not of Halloween fame…The situational Lefty.
CaseStreet
9/15/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
so what made Softy Roy so effective this season?