Oct 01
In a Twitter feed, David Lennon had this to say about Muprhy’s chances of starting at 1B for the Mets next year.
“Listening to WFAN. Francesa is right. Daniel Murphy will not be the starting first baseman for the #Mets next season. Period. End of story.”
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147 comments
CaseStreet
10/1/2009-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
it’s going to be a very busy winter here.
IDK how Omar’s going to do it.
I think we can all agree that we first need a #2.
Then we need a legit power bat in LF or 1B and someone else to play LF or 1B.
Add to that the potential need for a C, another SP, bench, SU, and now he has to account for Reyes’ situation.
OH, he also has lost 3 of his 5 lieutenants, will have to fire Jerry and hire a new manager, plus Assistant Coaches.
Omar has his work cut out for him.
njstuckintx
10/1/2009-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
When has Fatcessa been right with the Mets. Big Fat Yankee Homer.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:05pm at 9:05 pm (UTC -4)
Not much, but this is from Lennon.
gonzowill
10/1/2009-8:50pm at 8:50 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, get a big bat for left field, replace castillo and get a good #2 starter and maybe, just maybe I could live with Murphy at First. If any of those pieces aren’t filled, forget it. Murphy on the bench or back in AAA. I love the way he works but lets face it, I think he was a bit overmatched this year.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:05pm at 9:05 pm (UTC -4)
Who are you going to get for 2B that improves the offense enough to tollerate Murphy?
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:23pm at 9:23 pm (UTC -4)
LOL funny TRS, NOW we’re taking Fatso (w/o Fruitloops) as Gospel?
With either the same or reduced budget, how exactly do you find a #2SP,BP help,
a 1Bman, a LFer, maybe a Catcher AND a replacement for Reyes??
With Omar making the deals, none the less???
Talk about rose colored glasses!
Then what about Murphy? Has Omar earned enough confidence to think he’d even
bring a 4th OFer and washed up, overrated Catcher in return??
Oh, wait, he did something like that already!!
You guys know I love ya BUT some of you really are living in dream world.
More likely, the Wilpons convince themselves resigning Cora will solve the
Reyes problem while believing Castillo won’t get hurt again, Murphy will improve
both with the bat and glove.Plus, most importantly, works cheaply!
They will let Santos pretty much have the Catching job,hoping Thole can push him
in spring and focus on LF.
They may ,by default get invovled with Lackey and add an arm in the Pen on the
cheap…even if he stinks…see: Tim Redding.
Other than that, some of you are dreaming.
Remember, The Wilpons own the team and Omar is their GM.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:31pm at 9:31 pm (UTC -4)
Damn, Fongy. You guys can’t read. I don’t give a crap what Fatty said. However, I do think Lennon has SOME meritt.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:32pm at 9:32 pm (UTC -4)
And your condesending tone is annoying Fongy. None of us have a damn clue what they will do. All I am doing is reporting what a Mets beat reporter said.
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:36pm at 9:36 pm (UTC -4)
Didn’t mean to offend! Don’t be so sensitive, it’s just baseball
nothing personal!
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:37pm at 9:37 pm (UTC -4)
I do feel though that I have as much a clue as
Fat Mikey!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:39pm at 9:39 pm (UTC -4)
I think we all have as much of a clue as fat Mikey.
I am not offended. Just confused. You are actiing like anywhere in the post I posted my opinion. I just posted a tweet from David Lennon who I do trust to have SOME credibility.
That’s a pretty bold statement for him to make that he can easily be called on so I would think he thought about it before he reported it.
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:46pm at 9:46 pm (UTC -4)
Okay!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:51pm at 9:51 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe you have been around Lennon longer than I have. Does he normally make bold statments that have no meritt?
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:52pm at 9:52 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, wait! is that a shot?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:13pm at 10:13 pm (UTC -4)
No, I don’t think so? I have not been reading him long. But as for being around John Lennon, unless you are hanging out with the dead…
stickguy
10/1/2009-9:34pm at 9:34 pm (UTC -4)
Murphy must have spent the days this week that Jerry the genius started Tatis going to everyones house and kicking their dogs. It seems to be getting coleman-level personal to some posters. And all this guy does is bust his hump trying to get better in his first real year in the majors.
Most rookies (I’m giving him that PH AB back and calling him a rookie. my comments, I can do that!) do have a rough patch, and look overmatched at times. His wa pretty much May and what, 1/2 of June? And most rookies don’t have to learn a brand new position on the fly, or hell, even get stuck in batting clean up on a train wreck of a team!
quite the oppostie of the willie days where a rookie batted 8th. Just because.
Do I think Murphy will be the best 1B in the league next year? of course not. Do I think the Mets can contend, and even make the playoffs, with him playing 1st? Absolutely. Not however with Valdez at short, A Hern at 2nd, and sullivan in left though, and with no pitching.
and of course, with all the angst about the tight budget and many holes to fill, murphy is a minimum wage serf. That 5 mill saved over nick johnson can come in handy.
It would also be nice if we could have a target to shoot at for next year. Yeah, his overall 2009 numbers are weak. But since the ASB they are pretty darned OK. and at least he is trending up. Leading the team in doubles (He does now, doesn’t he? Or is DW still just ahead?) and HRs is still something.
So, before I say yes or no for 2010, what doe you all think he will put up? and, what is ‘good enough” for you, and frankly, giving the crap on the market, what do you honestly feel the alternates will give you?
I will peg the estimate at .280/.350/.450/.800 with (in FT duty, hitting 6th or 7th) 20 hrs, 50 doubles, 75-80 RBis. RBIs, of course, heavily dependant on anyone being on base.
Not sure what the standard deviation should be pegged at, but I think those numbers, based off his 2nd half production, a set lineup spot (with frnechy behind him), a reasonably healthy team, and normal 2nd year progression (after a ton of work in the off season) are certainly doable. Maybe slightly best case, but not extreme or ridiculous.
For $500K with a ton of holes to fill, will you take those numbers of close to them?
Which of the FA are going to beat them by enough to be worth 3-7 million more per year?
Do you want to keep 1B open in case Davis earns it for 2011, or sign a laroche for 3 years?
OK, done now!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I am still undecided. It would have to be a VERY good LF to makeup for it.
I am just reporting what Lennon said.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:44pm at 9:44 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll paraphrase what Lennon said:
“All I am saying, is give Murph a chance.”
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:47pm at 9:47 pm (UTC -4)
Shut the f*ck up Donny!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:50pm at 9:50 pm (UTC -4)
Well actually that’s the opposite of what he said but LOL.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:52pm at 9:52 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I meant JOHN Lennon based on a line from a song of his, and it was a perhaps lame attempt at a joke….I prefer this friendly debate to the one this morning!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:58pm at 9:58 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I know. But I just think this is major news. Combine this with the comments that dead head Jerry made today as well about an upheaval it has got a lot of us curious what the hell is going on.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:02pm at 10:02 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps…but I think until we know if Jerry is actually going to be around, it is hard to judge the value of what he has said.
In all seriousness though, everything about Murph really depends less on him–and Jerry–than which new players we get for next year.
If we somehow wind up with Holliday or Bay, then I think Murph will absolutely be the first baseman, don’t you?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe? It also depends on who the hold over’s are who is left for cheap in FA and if they upgraded the rotation or make a trade.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:43pm at 9:43 pm (UTC -4)
I AGREE!!!
And let us remember, as I have perhaps said too many times this week, that Murph played about 95 games at AA and ONE at AAA.
Last year should have been a full AA year and this year should have been a full AAA year, we we not so shorthanded and pathetic.
Not sure about 50 2B and 20 HR (but I like the optimism) but if we get a serious bat for LF and Murph hits 7th, will he be fine at 1B? Almost certainly.
The guy does nothing but hustle.
Nice work Stick.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:44pm at 9:44 pm (UTC -4)
I will say however, that those are big expectations for Murphy. 20 HR and 50 2B? Thats 22 more extra base hits than this year and would put him with the same amount of extrabase hits as Wright…. Last Year.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
Well, at least I am trying to put some numbers up to validate what the hell everyone is arguing about!
so far, he has ~498ABs and is at 11/37. Maybe the HRs are a bit of a jump, but they are hard to predict year to year. so what, 16?15? Not like 20 is that big of a target.
A good weekend, and he can still finish this year with 40 doubles. So 50 is a jump, but no too much.
so make his output the same, but make the #s 16/45 instead.
Heck, this year, in more PAs, Johnson is at 8/24. He does have a high OBP, but lousy slugging. He would pretty much be a 2nd slappy!
surprisingly, when you look at the numbers, laroche is a lot better than I realized, and consistant too. He would actually be an upgrade, even over my optomistic projectins. But again, how much do you want to pay? 10million/year?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:05pm at 10:05 pm (UTC -4)
Nah, Laroche will get 8 or less I am betting. But he is not worth the 3 or more years.
16/45 might be more reasonable. However, as power increases for him if it does, then he will hit less doubles and more HR most likely or will never be a HR hitter and increase doubles. I think 60 extrabase hits for him right now would be overachieving for sure.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
As I said, the most EXBH Wright ever had was last year and resulted in an ops of over .500.
I don’t see that high of a SLG for Murphy for a long time.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:16pm at 10:16 pm (UTC -4)
we shall see. He has 52 now, so a decent week end and he won’t be too far off from that this year.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:21pm at 10:21 pm (UTC -4)
True, but should we expect him to continue that? Was this year’s EXBH for real? Considering the percentage and his low OBP?
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:25pm at 10:25 pm (UTC -4)
very few guys that you really know what to expect from them. I do expect Murphys OBP to be higher. Will the EXBH go down? Maybe, but it could be off set by more walks, or HRs instead of doubles, who knows?
Not too many people expected a year like this out of DW. ANd really, what the heck do you predict for next year?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:36pm at 10:36 pm (UTC -4)
In between 08 and 09 for Wright.
As for Murphy, point is we have VERY little track record. He could be 1st half Murphy, 2nd half Muprhy or more likley in between. IF it is the in between Murphy that won’t be good enough.
That’s my problem, it’s like some are wanting to DEPEND on what I think is best case scenerio.
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:44pm at 9:44 pm (UTC -4)
I agree Stick, And note despite far fewer P.A.s, has more xtra basehits than Wright.
I’ve been hard on the kid but hes been O.K. this season and will only get better.
Plus, most importantly, works cheap!
I’ll tell ya about Davis, having seen him a couple times this season, he REMINDS
one of LaRouche. And b/t/w, along those same lines, having seen enough of FMart
over the past three seasons, I’m starting to think he may not be Dave Dejesus…
much less an AllStar!
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:47pm at 9:47 pm (UTC -4)
Murph really ties the infield together Dude….
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:49pm at 9:49 pm (UTC -4)
I know its down there somewhere, let me take another look.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:51pm at 9:51 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously you’re not a golfer…
fongy2
10/1/2009-9:54pm at 9:54 pm (UTC -4)
Mind if I do a J?
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:57pm at 9:57 pm (UTC -4)
Is this your homework Larry?
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
eight year olds, Dude.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
Liam and Me, We’re Gonna F*** You Up
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:22pm at 10:22 pm (UTC -4)
Smokey this ain’t ‘nam, this is bowling,
there are rules.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
Brant can’t watch unless he pays a hundred…
I’m just going to find a cash machine….
trs86
10/1/2009-9:48pm at 9:48 pm (UTC -4)
I also think for every poster that is too negative on Murphy there is another who thinks too highly of him. I think at this point he will have to show a lot to ever be a starter at 1B over a long period of time. I however am rational enough to understand that if the Mets get Lackey AND uhm Vlad (Omar is Omar) that Murphy will be fine. If we get Holiday and Piniero Murphy will be fine. If we get Ankiel and Wolf I don’t guess it would matter anyway but Murphy would not be good enough.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:55pm at 9:55 pm (UTC -4)
All those doubles and less than 100 games above A ball in the minors seriously make me think he is going to improve.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:59pm at 9:59 pm (UTC -4)
I hope you are right, but often a hitter suffers in his 2nd full year just like pitchers do.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
And what IS improve? To me he tops out at Lyle Overbay, best case scenerio. Maybe I am wrong. I still think 75 extrabase hits is a little bit of a stretch for his CAREER year.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:59pm at 9:59 pm (UTC -4)
I mean, sure, pitchers adjusted to him this year, but since he has played so very little above A ball, he is also going to adjust to pitchers, as we may have been seeing the last month.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:01pm at 10:01 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I hope you are right. But depending on him to provide much more than what he has done this year would be foolish.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:02pm at 10:02 pm (UTC -4)
Not saying YOU are. I just think some are and I hope the Mets are not. If they are then Fongy’s worst case might come true and Murphy and Pagan will be in the lineup and we will be complaining again come next October.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:07pm at 10:07 pm (UTC -4)
I know you weren’t calling me foolish TRS, and if you were, I am sure you would probably be right!
I personally think we have about as much chance of seeing Jeremy Reed or Ron Swoboda start in the OF as we do Pagan….I really like Pagan as a 4th OF, but absolutely not as a starter.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:05pm at 10:05 pm (UTC -4)
Totally agreed…I guess I am already in offseason optimistic mode after last night.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
God bless you.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you my son.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:23pm at 10:23 pm (UTC -4)
No, Thank…You.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
I they sign vlad and say here’s your power bat, you will discussing with someone else, because I will boycott for my own sake!
I think a new rule is, when a smart franchise has no interest in bringing a guy back, that is a big red flag.
And if the Mets FO (OK, Omar) ain’t smart enough to figure out that Vlad is mostly shot, and not really more than a DH now, G help us all!
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, the Angels did not want KRod back….
Ouch.
I love Vlad, he has had a great career, he is a blast to watch, we should have signed him last time around, etc, but if Omar signs him, yikes, he will be on the DL before the end of March.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:15pm at 10:15 pm (UTC -4)
Watch, we’ll sign Figgins for four years,will get here and
like Castillo his legs will be shot.
This while Tampa trades within their division, Crawford to the
yankees for a signed Del Alston baseball and an old Fred Stanley
bat…Plus some stiff, non prospect to be named later….
Oh, And The Rays will pay half the contract.
Doesn’t it just always seem to go like that?
…..or something..
trs86
10/1/2009-10:17pm at 10:17 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, but more seriously I actually now don’t think the Rays trade Crawford or Pena until at least the ASB next year. They are going to go out and get a pitcher and don’t be surprised if it’s a top guy.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
Like I said, if they think that Murphy is a for sure answer for next year at 1B or sign Vlad they have done more of the same.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:16pm at 10:16 pm (UTC -4)
Kinda, sorta NOT the same thing there Doc.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:19pm at 10:19 pm (UTC -4)
Why not Fongy it would be like starting Murphy this year and telling us he was the answer at LF and signing Alou all at the same time.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:27pm at 10:27 pm (UTC -4)
b/c the hopes for 2010 will not and should not be what they were coming into the past couple seasons.
And why would you give a DH any contract?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
You would not, just like you would not EXPECT Murphy to produce at 1B.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
Listen, my friend, after this season, I’m not
“expecting” ANYTHING from this clown crew.
Would I be shocked if our lone FA sign this
off season was Vlad for crazy yrs and crazy $$$???
No, I would not! Having witnessed Omar’s 5 prior
off seasons here…ANYTHINHG is possible!
trs86
10/1/2009-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. But even you admit that trusting Murphy to produce at 1B is risky.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
I didn’t “trust” him to do much of anything
as a rookie except lose us games in LeftField. In 2010 @ 1B, I’m hoping for
an average glove, .280+,40/452B/15HR&80RBI
Having seem him BEFORE he got to Flushing,
you could see hes got a good idea of what
hes doing at the plate, he needed a position. He hasn’t been horrible @1B
and AGAIN, most importantly(for the FO)
he works cheaply. If he gives close to
the above #s, isn’t that more cost effective than say a Nick Johnson(if even
healthy) or Overbay, both of who I do like?
trs86
10/1/2009-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
Cost effective? Maybe, but why should we EXPECT those numbers? Based on 1 year? Isn’t that like expecting Frenchy to be what he has been the time with the Mets?
And back to your cost cutting point, I still look at it differently. IF they don’t make the playoffs next year, 2011 will be the cost cutting year. Thus get someone on a 1 year contract this offseason and Murphy can be your cost effective guy during the rebuild in 2011 if need be.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:39pm at 11:39 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I `didnt say”expect”…I said hope.
darknova306
10/1/2009-10:49pm at 10:49 pm (UTC -4)
I like Murphy, I just think he needs more development. You know, with all of ONE game at AAA under his belt during his ‘development’. When will this organization learn?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
It’s like ALL of us including the Mets are caught in a time warp. We want the Mets to give time to develop prospects in the minors, we want them to have MLB ready prospects to call up, we want them to stop signing old farts and trust our youth, we want them to spend the extra money to have allstars at every position and league average guys on the bench.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
anyway, I have said before that the toughest thing a GM has to do is project what a plyer will do in the future.
And boob can look at last years numbers and make moves based on that.
The top guys that last are the ones with the best crystal ball.
And Omar has made a few moves for potential guys, but seems to make up for it by not seeing the decline coming.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:16pm at 10:16 pm (UTC -4)
True.
So when do some of the posters give him credit for giving Muprhy a chance to prove himself and sticking with him?
We, including me, have insulted him for slotting him in LF to start the year.
However, with all the pro Murphy and anti Omar talk no one is mentioning the fact that Omar for once went with a young guy instead of signing an old geezer and stuck with him.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:23pm at 10:23 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, I never really criticize Omar. Sure I am still disappointed at 2007 and 2008, but I vividly remember 1977-1983, the early-to-mid 90s, and the Art Howe Era.
Omar is really not that bad at all.
Sorry Fong!
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
No need to be! Civil men can disagree civilly!
But my take, as all know, is…he ain’t that good either!
AND right now, given THIS mess which again, HE mostly created…
We need REAL GOOD!
trs86
10/1/2009-10:46pm at 10:46 pm (UTC -4)
I am, like the core, willing to give all of them (excluding Jerry and the coaching staff) one more shot. Then bring in the new guy to rebuild if need be.
darknova306
10/1/2009-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, he did go with a young guy, and I guess I haven’t really given Omar credit for that. That’s a good point. However… Murphy was rushed up like we tend to do to our players, and that’s something I will hold against Omar.
Honestly, I really wanted Dunn or Abreu for LF (as many of us did, I think), giving Murph a change to get some development in at AAA.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:59pm at 10:59 pm (UTC -4)
They never, like many teams, wanted Dunn. I think with Abreu’s age again they thought lets give Murphy a chance instead of doing what we always do.
darknova306
10/1/2009-11:12pm at 11:12 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, which is part of the reason why I want Omar gone. It’s all so silly, Dunn has raked for my fantasy team. :p
trs86
10/1/2009-11:20pm at 11:20 pm (UTC -4)
But in that case how many GM’s were guilty the guy was almost blackballed.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
I wanted Dunn too….his combo of HR and OBP is very unique and very valuable..hell, I would love to trade for him if possible.
darknova306
10/1/2009-11:13pm at 11:13 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:32pm at 11:32 pm (UTC -4)
I wonder what the Nats approach will be. I think they will spend money this offseason instead of trading away.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
I agree BUT the guy really is a DH.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:22pm at 10:22 pm (UTC -4)
another thought as it relates to murphy (and the earlier must sign thread).
If you are going with a less rpoven guy, try to have better back up plans in place! This year, Tatis as the fall back was just not good (was sheff better?)
Cora as a starter, not really a great plan.
So, either get a better player to be on the bench or spot starting (like a derosa “super utility” guy), or have a serious prospect undergoing final poishing in the minors.
Lopez for MI support? Much better than Valdez or A Hern.
If you think Ike Davis is almost ready (not saying he is, just a concept!), then it is less risky to go with Murphy. If not Davis, can you sign a real OF/1B type to step in when needed?
In some cases, I don’t mind a semi-platoon or rotation set up, where you might have 4 “regulars” for 3 spots (say 1B/LF/RF). Helps cover if one of them goes belly up.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
Actually I saw no problem with the backups for Murphy being Sheff and Tatis. How many teams have better than that on the bench. To get someone better to play those spots for that price would have been impossible. Now if you say they should have spent more, if they were going to do that then it would have been someone better than Murphy and Murphy would not have been starting anyway.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
doesnt have to be the bench. The Mets really didnt have any prospects this year that were viable to call up (deending on whether you think F Mart was really too rushed).
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-10:36pm at 10:36 pm (UTC -4)
Who do they have that we think will be viable to call up in 2010?
Or is the whole premise, they need to add these people this offseason? Sorry to ask I’m coming in here rather late to the party.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:39pm at 10:39 pm (UTC -4)
Grave, I think one thing we can all agree on is that it is FAR better to see you late at the party than not at all….
trs86
10/1/2009-10:40pm at 10:40 pm (UTC -4)
Fair point, but not sure that’s Omar’s fault. We can say it is in about 2 years if all of his guys are bust. Unless you are saying he focussed too much on young guys for the minors and did not develop a rounded organization. That I can agree with.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
I mean, how long did it take the Phillies stinking before they developed all of their core guys now?
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-10:42pm at 10:42 pm (UTC -4)
1994-2002 roughly
trs86
10/1/2009-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
And they were all slow to develop or call up too right?
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not a Phillies expert but I think there were as you and I like to acknowledge, shades of gray.
Howard I think was blocked by Thome, for example.
Utley may be the best example of an excellent player who was not immediately excellent. His first two partial ML seasons were noticeably unremarkable. He “blossomed” at age 26 in his 3rd ML season, was a 1st rounder for what that’s worth in the draft.
Rollins was in the minors 4 years and a starter in the majors at age 22 as a 2nd round pick. Howard was 5th round.
I think it comes down to a combination of the team being bad for a decade and the front office making sound draft choices with picks they retained by NOT signing Type A free agents.
The Mets certainly haven’t sucked for a decade but there is little evidence (yet?) that they have done a good job with their high round picks.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
Really, Omar had no idea until the Tigers cut him, Sheffield was gonna
be a backup, starter or anything else for us. He assed into that one
Just like his greatest P.U., Johan. And b/t/w, I’m really starting to think
we should have let them have FMart and kept Gomez!
trs86
10/1/2009-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
They are both pretty bad.
But as for Omar, I think there is too much of this too.
Too much of giving him credit for everything that goes wrong and no credit for what goes right. When he gets it right he got lucky and when he gets it wrong he is a terrible GM.
As I have said for 2 years, he is flat out AVERAGE.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Now now, that is not really fair—Omar could have easily dropped the ball and made the Twins take whatever the Yanks or Sox offered for Johan.
And the Shef pickup looked real good while we were still in the race.
And FMart might still be better than Gomez…
trs86
10/1/2009-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
And Omar could have caved early and included anything from Reyes to Fmart to Pelfrey where then everyone would be for certain complaining about how bad the trade was.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:06pm at 11:06 pm (UTC -4)
True on all 3 points although, I had a hard time rooting FOR
Sheff even in a Mets uni.
As for Fmart and Gomez, I’m thinking Dave DeJesus and Roberto
Kelly! For God’s sake get the kid healthy and sell high,Omar!
trs86
10/1/2009-10:24pm at 10:24 pm (UTC -4)
By the way guys, I really like Murphy and think he has a role no matter what next year. I am just nervous to EXPECT anything out of him. I would rather EXPECT him to be the same as this year or even slightly worse and be pleasantly surprised.
You guys already know that I think next year is put up or shut up year and I want as few question marks as possible. Because as I said there will be no more chances for the core if they don’t make it.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with every last word of that…..
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:30pm at 10:30 pm (UTC -4)
LIke I said, after this year, the offensive core are all on 1 year deals (DW 2 with the option, and actually Reyes could be a FA if option not exercised).
Unless the EMts offer, and the playres feel like taking, and extension, 2011 is it for this bunch.
although you will have Johan and K Rod kicking around (if his arm is still attached).
so blowing things up is actually a neccesity next year. Or more accurately, making huge practive choices about the next 3 year period (either extend or retool)
and the GM relly has to get pieces in place after 2010, instead of waiting to fill every hole after 2011.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-10:38pm at 10:38 pm (UTC -4)
Nice Freudian slip with “EMts” (Emergency Medical Technicians)
The MEts could’ve used a few of those in the dugout this year.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
EMTs!! That is really too much!
trs86
10/1/2009-10:44pm at 10:44 pm (UTC -4)
So is next year the year to be skimping on any position? If lets say Overbay is available as a salary dump should we say, nah Muprhy will be better? To me next year is the year to go out and get as much as possible for one more shot. Doing almost everything through FA so you are setup better for a rebuild.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, with who’s money? Do we call Mrs. Madoff and ask her to raid
that cayman isles stash so that we can sign Lackey AND Holliday???
Come on Mrs.Madoff, for old times sake!
Your kids went to school together, heck Sonny Wilpon talked Papa into
investing with Old Bernie.
Errr, maybe forget that one.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
Has any Mets offical said we are cutting payroll?
Besides, next year is next year. IF they don’t win next year they most likely will be rebuilding and saving tons of money. You don’t think the Wilpons could get 10M extra this year to go back up to the luxury tax if they knew that if they did not make the playoffs they would end up with a payroll for 2011 of 100M?
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
They didn’t this past off season!
trs86
10/1/2009-11:13pm at 11:13 pm (UTC -4)
As you said don’t you think the state of the organization is much different than it was last offseason?
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:22pm at 11:22 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, its a friggin mess and I’d think
knowing this FO that REAL championship
hopes with Reyes and Santana being ?s,
Delgado gone or 37 and coming off a major
injury&Madoff having made half a Bil disapear That THEY will tinker and hope.
Not much more than that though.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
Anyone see what Carpenter did tonight?
5 shutout innings, a grand slam, and a 2 run double for 6 rbi.
Those jackasses might win it all again.
fongy2
10/1/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
And a CY Young for Carpenter!
I’ll take their Mgr and Pitching Coach if they dont want them!
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:54pm at 10:54 pm (UTC -4)
If Omar got LaRussa and Duncan, even you would salute him!
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:11pm at 11:11 pm (UTC -4)
You!…Are correct Sir!
I’d even take those two on long term deals while doing very little
in the off season, player wise,allowing them to sort and figure out
what they have and what they want to build a REAL contender for
2011&2012 at which time we all know the world will end.
Opps!, sorry, that last one slipped.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:15pm at 11:15 pm (UTC -4)
I am not a big LaRussa fan, HUGE Duncan fan. However I would take him over Bobby V, Buck, Willie, or Jerry. Not sure if that is a compliment or not.
I wonder if he won the WS this year if he would want to move into GM?
darknova306
10/1/2009-11:15pm at 11:15 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets won’t be winning a WS before the world ends, you know that. :p
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:17pm at 11:17 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, yeah…..I know.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:23pm at 11:23 pm (UTC -4)
Will they at least get a no-hitter? I was kind of taken aback the other night when GC said that he was convinced that since the Mets don’t have one by now, he doesn’t think they ever will. I still think Ollie is going to throw the first one, which won’t be a perfect game of course due to the multiple bases on balls. My “prediction” is he will do it in the last start of his current contract.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:29pm at 11:29 pm (UTC -4)
The theory on Ollie sounds good, problem
is that he’d need 150 Pitches to get
through even giving up only 3 or 4 BBs.
Our only hope is a rained shortened
Or a Healthy,mid season Johan who if
he had one after 7 would con’t until
it was done or a hit was given up.
It really is one of the most amazin’
things in sports though.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:30pm at 11:30 pm (UTC -4)
Unless we get him healthy and confident again his arm would fall off during the no hitter after the 1012th pitch of the game.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t argue with either of you on the particulars of Ollie’s mythical no-hitter, that’s why I say it will be in his last start of this contract.
He will be the same enigma he’s always been throughout the balance of the contract, then just as the fanbase is sighing with relief that at last he’ll be gone (in Sept ’11 I believe), he’ll gum it up with the no-no.
darknova306
10/2/2009-2:05am at 2:05 am (UTC -4)
We were all sighing with relief in September 08 when Ollie was getting ready to depart… then Omar happened. I believe that’s called an ‘epic fail’ by the kids these days. Two more years of Ollie’s nonsense…
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
My post season motto is ABTYOP*
Anbody But The Yankees Or Phillies
A Yankee-Phillie World Series would be the lowest rated WS ever in my household, pulling in a ZERO.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-11:00pm at 11:00 pm (UTC -4)
Hate to disagree Grave, but I would absolutely LOVE to see the Phils beat the Yanks, and will be rooting very hard for them if that is the matchup.
But, I hope the Tigers can take care of the Yanks early…how sweet that would be…
trs86
10/1/2009-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
Where is my ban toggle switch. You need to be suspended for a night.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
HA!!!
My Dad’s brother has been a Philly fan for almost 50 years, so perhaps I have an excuse?
I am so sorry, but I just do not hate them.
I hate the Yanks with every fiber in my being though.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:15pm at 11:15 pm (UTC -4)
I’m with ya Brock! Atleast my new bride and most of
my neighbors would be happy.
Also, we sort of deserve it AND I know almost all of
you disagree but I have a hard time “hating” the phils.
I reserve that emotion for the yankees!
My best case is Red Sox v. Dodgers ’cause it would
just KILL yankee fans!
trs86
10/1/2009-11:18pm at 11:18 pm (UTC -4)
I have enough hate left over for both. As a Mets fan and a UVA fan I got lots of hate.
But as Grave said I respect their organization and a few players but most with their obsession with the Mets and unprofessional comments have stoked a rivalry that I think was never there and was completey media driven.
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:24pm at 11:24 pm (UTC -4)
Did you go to UVA? or did you start out
a Ralph Sampson fan and go from there?
trs86
10/1/2009-11:29pm at 11:29 pm (UTC -4)
0/2.
I was a UVA fan starting with Bryant Stith’s freshman year (late 80′s). They were pretty competitive then but mostly it was because the rest of my friends were all NC teams fans even though we all lived in VA. LOL. I went to Radford but you can’t really be a Radford fan of any sport. LOL.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:33pm at 11:33 pm (UTC -4)
You can be a Radford U baseball fan with former Radford OF Alex Gregory in the Met system! He had a .945 OPS v. lefties!
fongy2
10/1/2009-11:35pm at 11:35 pm (UTC -4)
I played ball @ Bergen CC in the early
eighties couldn’t afford St.John’s
which is where I dreamed of going
but alas real life got in the way.
Stith was a wonderful college player
though, classic tweener as a pro.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:08pm at 11:08 pm (UTC -4)
If you can actually root for the Phils, more power to you. I respect the organization’s recent accomplishments, but not enough to wish them to victory, even over the Yanks. If that is the WS matchup, in my baseball world the season will have ended with the last LCS game.
No prob on the disagreement, if 65 authors and commenters all had the same opinion how boring would the comment section be?
After the 30 or so emails in my inbox today about disagreeing with each other I had to read that very juicy thread this morning with all the vitriol. Good stuff. It was nice to read divergent opinions without all the “Alex Cora is CRAP” and “You must be a douche to think that” type of stuff I was so used to elsewhere.
As far as Tigers taking care of Yanks early, it made me happy a few years ago, I’d welcome it again in ’09.
darknova306
10/1/2009-11:19pm at 11:19 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, I’d honestly have to say that the Phils repeating would be one of the worst things to ever happen. Yanks have won so many times it’s not going to make their fans any worse right now (they still have the 2000 WS they can hang over us in addition to 26), but Philly fans would become exponentially worse.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:21pm at 11:21 pm (UTC -4)
Good point, I hadn’t even thought of the fan aspect. Ugh.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:22pm at 11:22 pm (UTC -4)
Either that or maybe they would actually celebrate their team’s accomplishments and think about them when they win instead of us. Players and fans…. Nah they still need us, other wise they know still no one outside of Philly cares.
darknova306
10/2/2009-2:06am at 2:06 am (UTC -4)
Amen.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:01pm at 11:01 pm (UTC -4)
I am thinking about a post where we should all be pulling for the Angels as maybe if they won again Omar and the Wilpons would realize they are the perfect team to mold the Mets after.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:11pm at 11:11 pm (UTC -4)
You should write that. It is perhaps the most apt comparison, being that both franchises are #2 in their Metro area in almost every respect. It goes far beyond just the inner workings of the organization.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:16pm at 11:16 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, that was VERY much part of my comparison. Maybe YOU should right it. LOL.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:19pm at 11:19 pm (UTC -4)
I’d be happy to give it a shot although I can’t at this moment say “it’ll be ready at X hour on X day” but I would hope to be able to have something for early next week, perhaps as filler between the end of the regular season and the playoffs.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:24pm at 11:24 pm (UTC -4)
Yippie, the return of Grave if only for a day. Take your time bud, as long as the Angels are still in it. IF they get swept 1st round you may have missed your opprotunity. LOL.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:28pm at 11:28 pm (UTC -4)
OK I’ll start putting something together. My goal will be to publish Mon or Tue of next week, before the post season games start. As that gets closer I’ll firm up a specific day & time with you boys.
GravediggerHebner
10/1/2009-11:01pm at 11:01 pm (UTC -4)
TRS I don’t know what to think about your thought on going out and signing as much/many as possible this offseason in “one last run” if that’s what you were getting at above.
I guess it makes sense on at least 2 levels: the “core” is getting older and their contracts are getting shorter; and they have a protected first round pick they’ll get to keep (regardless of how little I believe they’ll use it wisely, at least the possibility exists).
trs86
10/1/2009-11:10pm at 11:10 pm (UTC -4)
I have been thinking about this one for a while. To me signing as many short term guys to fill all of our holes instead of 1-2 longterm stars is the way to go. I don’ think it’s about the age of the core, it’s about how if it does not work next year there is a 100% chance of change. Reyes would have 1 year left and Beltran would be a hot comodity late next year or next offseason. Yes he has a no trade clause but if we suck, I am sure he would waive it.
But no if it were left up to me I would be keeping all 3 and building for the longterm. However, I don’t see that as an option for the Wilpons.
stickguy
10/2/2009-12:07am at 12:07 am (UTC -4)
if nothing else, it will be a very entertaining off season. Heck, it already has been!
for the WS, I would boycott, but if it ends up being the phils and yanks, I vote yanks. You would too if you lived in the philly matket. I am already avoiding watching the news now that they clinched.
I am also not sure that the team will think like TRS (go for broke this year, and plan to start over next year). Could end up partially doing that though, say with Dye in LF and some ST SP?
although if they do want the 1 more year plan, I can see it being Delgado at 1B.
Hey, bring them all back, and we can see what a healthy 2009 team can do!
darknova306
10/2/2009-2:12am at 2:12 am (UTC -4)
I live in Western New York, which isn’t really any team’s country outside the Sabers and Bills, and I’d still root for the Yanks to beat the Phils. I feel bad for you, Stick, being down there. They’ve got to be totally insufferable. Arrogant, classless, in-your-face-obnoxious, etc.
The horror stories I’ve heard from out of town fans going to CBP leave me with no desire to see those a$$hole fans happy about anything. When you actually have to worry about the safety of your children at a game, there’s a serious problem with that fanbase.