Fact- The 2009 season was partially ruined by injuries BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT- The Phillies have won 91 with 5 to go, so they will end up with likely around 93-94 wins, Rockies 89 wins with 5 to go, they will likely win 91-92 games, so how were the Mets making the playoffs even if healthy with the team they trotted out there opening day? Beltran, Reyes, Delgado and Wright (especially the 2009 version) and Santana were going to carry this team to 92+ wins? Murphy, Schneider, Church, Pelfrey all stunk, all were basically unaffected by injury (I know Schneider was injured but cmon). Whether people want to accept it or not this team was NOT a great team on paper. Could they have challenged for the playoffs? Sure. But the math says we needed more than 90 wins to make it and with the roster we had even healthy that looked like a stretch.
Injuries obviously are all people want to talk about. Injuries are why Jerry Manuel has gotten a pass (2 seasons of 85 or more wins out of 7 full seasons as an MLB manager), they are why Omar has received a pass (Who goes into the season with a 140 million dollar payroll with Church, Murphy, Castillo (coming off a HORRIBLE year) and Schneider? PLUS Maine coming off surgery and Livan Hernandez but spends 4.5 on Cora and Redding, 6.5 on a set-up man (yet not enough money for a real RF or LF) and gives Oliver Perez 3 years 36 without ANY other offer on the table?
164 comments
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-8:49am at 8:49 am (UTC -4)
After 78 games, 3 short of the halfway mark, we were precisely ONE game out of first, before losing Beltran and Jose and JJ finally caught up with the team, which had already suffered other injuries.
Of course injuries are the primary reason for this disaster.
They are NOT the reason or excuse for the horribly sloppy and uninspired play over the last two months, hence I definitely feel that Jerry should be canned immediately, along with all of his coaches, and I firmly believe that a better job almost certainly could have been done with diagnosing/treating injuries.
But our roster looked like a 90 win team to me, and to many others as well.
And when you have a team with Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Santana, Delgado, JJ, and KRod all making lots of dough, of course you are going to have to have some players like Church and Schneider, unless you are the Yanks.
There are MORE than enough things to criticize now, without having to rehash the very questionable criticism of how this team was constructed last offseason.
As for JJ, had he not been hurt, which he may have been when he arrived, and had he been even, say, 75% of what he had been the last few years, he would have been amazing for this team. Especially considering what the pen was like last year.
And Murph did not “stink”, Pelf was very good last year and could have been reasonably expected to continue to develop this year, and Castillo had a fine year this year. I won’t defend Ollie.
Let’s try to utilize the 8 zillion legitimate places criticism is warranted.
This is a serious and unnecessary stretch.
trs86
10/1/2009-8:51am at 8:51 am (UTC -4)
I would not say Murphy stunk, I would just say that there was no way he could live up to his expectations or replace Delgado’s production. That is not Murphy’s fault that is Omar’s.
CaseStreet
10/1/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Murph wasn’t intended to replace Delgado’s production.
He’d be playing the same role he will next year, as the weak (but cheap) bat between 1B and LF.
metro
10/1/2009-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Well the Mets expected him to be at least league average offensively in LF and his stats aren’t even CLOSE to league average in LF or 1b, so blame the Mets but Murphy disappointed by any standards set forth by the Mets.
metro
10/1/2009-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
You can’t look at injuries in a “bubble” JJ Putz has elbow issues dating back to 2006. Every injured player a team adds gets a pass if he gets hurt despite injury history? In 2008 Putz was shut down due to the VERY issue (bone spurs in his elbow) that ended up costing him this season. So yeah maybe some of the injuries were “flukey” but Delgado’s hip injury was KNOWN as was the fact that it could “go at anytime” and yes Putz’s arm issues should have sent up a HUGE red flag. Please click on this link to read the LONG history of arm issues Putz has had
http://www.metstoday.com/mets-injuries/2009/the-elbow-history-of-jj-putz/
trs86
10/1/2009-8:59am at 8:59 am (UTC -4)
Metro, if you think Kingman does NOT know about Putz you need to know his background. He knows more about Putz I am guessing than any of us.
But when he was traded for one would assume that he checked out to be healthy. Yes everyone knew Delgado could go down. For the entire season? No.
metro
10/1/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Trs/Kingman I apologize if somehow I implied Kingman did not have knowledge on the subject. I would never question how much somebody “knew” or didn’t know.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Nah, LOL. Just laughing about Kingman’s situation. He lives(ed) in that area.
CaseStreet
10/1/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
He’s the head of the ex-mariners in queens lobbying group. His office is the back of a station wagon in the junkyard.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
Well, ANY player can “go at anytime” as we saw this year.
Sorry, it is annoying to have to read this argument, which I see as completely unnecessary piling on after a truly miserable year, when there is MORE than enough blame to go around without rehashing the old argument of how the team was constructed.
NO ONE could have forseen this many injuries, even if one completely accepts your thoughts on Delgado and JJ.
Check out how many games we had guys on the DL—I think it was like 30%+ more than the next team. We had more injuries than any year in team history, and possibly among the most ever for any team.
Yes, we need to have a $200 million payroll, to have all-stars on the bench waiting to back up everyone if they get injured.
That ain’t ever gonna happen.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
The thing that surprised me the most is not that some of these players WENT on the DL it’s that they NEVER returned, even Beltran was so late.
If you told me Reyes would tweak a hammy and miss 2 weeks, I would say yeah. Delgado would need cortisone in his hip and rest and would miss 4 weeks. Beltran would injure his previously injured knee and miss 2 weeks. But for them to miss MONTHS could not have been expected.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
Of course….I mean, I am as annoyed as anyone at this trainwreck of a year, but blaming Omar for how he constructed the team for it is absolutely unfair in my opinion.
No one would have figured on Beltran and Reyes being out so long, and this ALONE might have ruined our year with or without the rest of the injuries.
metsgirl31
10/1/2009-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
I agree…I thought we would be competitive at the least. And no way the Phillies or even the Braves and Marlins win as many games as they have if not for the injuries on the Mets. Omar can be blamed for some things but I don’t believe he can be blamed for the way the team was built.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Other than the fact that he did not listen to ME.
I had Garland, Wolf, on the team and Delgado traded.
metsgirl31
10/1/2009-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Yea but the way things went this year, Garland and/or Wolf would have gotten hurt too. It was just that kind of season. Hopefuly though he listens to you this off-season.
trs86
10/1/2009-8:49am at 8:49 am (UTC -4)
If not looking from a bubble you also have to remember a few more things. How would Wright have hit if others were in the lineup? The same? Maybe? How much better would the pitching staff be with Reyes playing SS as was mentioned during the game last night? How much time would Murphy have played? Would Omar have made a trade at the deadline if we were healthy? Maybe for that #2 pitcher to keep up with the Phillies addition?
Also, keep in mind the bubble idea. If the Mets were full strength would the Phillies have 91 wins? Considering the Mets were 11-7 against them last year and are 6-12 against them this year and were 4-1 against them before the injuries.
Now were we a 95 win team coming in? Hell no. But were the Phillies a 95 win team if we were full strength? Hell no. That division would have beat the hell out of each other just as we expected.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
Great points answering a VERY questionable argument.
And if Delgado had not been hurt, a Shef/Murph platoon may have been quite adequate in LF.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
Actually if Delgado had not gotten hurt I would imagine that Pagan would be the starting LF and Murphy back to AAA or the bench.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
Ouch–imagine how many baserunning gaffes would would have–they could make a blooper highlight reel of just that!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
But how much of it with Pagan is focus? Would he have been able to focus more when the games mattered and with Delgado and Beltran on the bench with him?
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:26am at 9:26 am (UTC -4)
Good question.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Pagan is auditioning for a job. If he isn’t focused right now then he’ll never be.
It shouldn’t matter to him that the season is lost (and he shouldn’t get a pass even if the lost season is a reason for his “lack of focus.” That in and of itself is evidence of poor character).
So either he’s got no baseball instincts whatsoever or he’s stupid enough to play fast and loose with the best opportunity he’s been given at the ML level.
All of these scenarios lead to Pagan being another uniform next season.
metro
10/1/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Pagan’s baseball IQ has ALWAYS been an issue dating back to his first time in the organization. Furthermore, for a guy who has yet to “have a career” does a player really deserve the benefit of a doubt when he is being given a REAL chance to impress? He should be out playing like it’s his chance to be an MLB regular.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
You beat me to it by 6 minutes. I can’t believe it took me that long to type!
trs86
10/1/2009-9:03am at 9:03 am (UTC -4)
According to Rubin the Mets are working with Evans on learning Catcher. Three things with this. Either he is going to spend a year in AAA trying to learn Catcher. He will replace Tatis as the I play it all man, with a potentially terrible bat that would leave us begging for Tatis. He will be traded.
metro
10/1/2009-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Jerry clearly doesn’t like him (well maybe not “clearly” because who can understand his most recent comments regarding him) but I think Evans is traded following the year. If they liked him they would have given him a shot and instead those chances went to Cory Sullivan.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Or maybe they think he stinks.
metro
10/1/2009-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Not saying otherwise. I was responding to the idea he would replace Tatis. Doesn’t seem all that likely if he isn’t being allowed to play now. I’m not a big Evans fan personally.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
I think it will take longer than one year to learn to catch well enough at the major league level. Catchers tend to develop later than other position players even if they’ve caught their whole careers.
stickguy
10/1/2009-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
well, for a lot of them it is because they can’t hit. ALthough you do have the ones that can’t field instead, but they usually get moved elsewhere!
trs86
10/1/2009-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
I think they are trying to Eli Marrero him. Put his usefulness as a guy who can play many positions badly.
metsgirl31
10/1/2009-9:18am at 9:18 am (UTC -4)
My opinion is that injuries were the reason for this disaster of a season. It was the main domino that caused all the other dominoes to fall. DWright had no protection in the lineup, Pelf (I believe) put additional pressure on himself and clearly didn’t respond well to that pressure, I don’t agree Murph “stunk”…I mean it is his 1st full season and, again, he probably put additional pressure on himself. The lineups the team trotted out there some days were laughable at best. Because of injuries.
Yes there’s been VERY sloppy play. No doubt. And that’s got to rest somewhat on Jerry. But still the injuries made this season painful for all of us.
No excuse. Just a reason. In my opinion, at least.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
Exactly, this team played sloppy defense and running mistakes in a 19-9 May. Sure that could be luck but it could be that they were good enough to over come their terrible manager and those mistakes. Enough to win a WS, most likely not. Enough to make the playoffs, very possible.
metsgirl31
10/1/2009-9:25am at 9:25 am (UTC -4)
Right…playing field being equal between the Mets, Phillies, Marlins and Braves…the other 3 teams are no better than the Mets at full strength. No matter what some people think about the Phillies they are not some kind of “super” team. Beginning of the season we had as much of a shot to win the division as the Phillies. No one could have predicted the injuries.
metro
10/1/2009-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
The Phillies offense on paper certainly looked FAR superior to ours
SS- Reyes vs. Rollins
2b- Utley vs. Castillo
1b- Delgado vs. Howard
3b- Wright vs. Feliz
C- Schneider vs. Ruiz
RF- Church vs. Werth
CF-Victorino vs. Beltran
LF- Ibanez vs. Murphy
The Mets “win” at SS, 3b and CF (but even then the Phillies have a VERY nice player in CF. They demolish us in LF, 2b, RF and were better at 1b and RF. Now that they have Cliff Lee and Happ has emerged, I see no scenario the Mets “look” better than the Phillies on paper come opening day 2010.
trs86
10/1/2009-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
You know you can’t compare teams like that. How much better is Wright than Feliz, Ibanez than Murphy. Those can’t be measured by just, oh he’s better give a point to 1 team. And since win was offense the only thing that mattered. Even the Phillies last year don’t win without a bullpen that was pitching WAY over it’s head.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Why not rank them with points 1-9?!?!
LOL.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
At least that would be closer Wanny.
metro
10/1/2009-9:25am at 9:25 am (UTC -4)
“We are not the Yankees” is a typical Mets fan cop out. The Dodgers starting 8 offensive players on opening day consisted of ZERO players projected to be below league average for their position, the Phillies had 2 such players Pedro Feliz and Carlos Muniz (even he is only slightly below average for a MLB catcher by the numbers), The Red Sox had 1 such player in Julio Lugo, the Mets? They had 4. Brian Schneider, Ryan Church, Luis Castillo (coming off a HORRIBLE injury plagued year) and Daniel Murphy as a LF. The other teams I mentioned have the “same” or lesser payrolls yet somehow come opening day had no more than 2 such players, the Mets managed to have 4.
stickguy
10/1/2009-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
that’s what happens when you go for the Omar theory of “load up on a few high paid superstar FAs and surround them with dreck”
of course, he should have been able to find better dreck for similar money, but he isn’t really that good.
also, Murphy was not the starting LF. It was always supposed to be a tatis/murphy platoon from what I remember. Not that it makes things better.
It is cleary a major issue to address next year though, getting better complmentary players.
metro
10/1/2009-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
It was supposed to be Murphy/Tatis, then Jerry announced that Murphy was a better hitter than Church and became a Church/Tatis platoon.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
Omar didn’t do enough in the offseason is a typical unreasonable fan complaint.
Yeah, I desperately wanted Ibanez (or Dunn or Abreu) but we had one major flaw, and Omar picked up a top closer and a potentially excellent setup man.
OK, so did all of your cited teams have the starpower of Johan, KRod (judged by his career before this year), Reyes, Wright, Beltran, and Delgado?
Did the Dodgers have as many players this good? Did even ONE of their key players have an injury?
Uh, no.
Do the Phils have as many stars as we did to start the year? Better mid-level players for sure, but not as many stars. And other than Ibanez missing a few weeks, did they suffer many injuries?
Not going to argue the Red Sox, as they have run their team pretty near perfectly the last 6 years or so.
After not winning a WS in 86 years.
stickguy
10/1/2009-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
agreed 100%
metro
10/1/2009-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
“Star Power” means NOTHING (didn’t 2006, 2007, 2008 prove that to you?) the Mets didn’t just “choke” they put ALL of their hopes on 4 offensive players (Reyes, Wright, Delgado, Beltran) and surrounded them with players BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE. I’m not looking to add all-stars. I am looking for the players around the core to be LEAGUE AVERAGE at their position. “Better mid-level players” is the entire issue with the Mets. Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Delgado did their parts in 2006, 2007 and 2008, the OTHER guys did not. It’s not worth arguing now but Bobby Abreu wouldn’t have added more to this team than Redding and Cora? And they cost just about the same.
metsgirl31
10/1/2009-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
But isn’t the issue then that because of the injuries that the “mid-level” players had to essentially become the “core”. And therein lies the downfall of the season. If any other teams’s “mid-level” players had to play the majority of the season while their “core” players were out, would they not have had the same result? I mean there were times we were playing backups to backups.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Again, right on the money—in 2006 players like LoDuca, Valentin, Nady, Chavez, Sanchez and Bradford brought NOTHING to the table.
metro
10/1/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Last I checked the year was 2009 and none of those players remain, 2006 we lost because of some bad luck but 2007 and 2008 “chokes” absolutely had to do with the “Big 4″ being expected to carry the load.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Hmm, so our role players in 2007 went down or did not perform?
metro
10/1/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Our role players the past 2 years have been horrific with only Tatis being a “plus” player of the bench players. Reed is one of the worst Mets ever for example.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, ok. Lets settle down. Did you look at Reed’s PH stats and the fact that he plays great defense?
metro
10/1/2009-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
2008 Castillo, Church, Schneider (3 of our starting 8 all stunk)
2007 Green was below average, Lo Duca was AWFUL and Alou was hurt all the time so we had Endy and his .705 OPS starting often, how is this even a debate?
2006 we had Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Delgado PLUS Lo Duca playing at an All-Star Level and Valentin the same.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
True so should he have upgraded LoDuca after an allstar year? Valentin?
trs86
10/1/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
And the awful Shawn Green was 291 .352 .430 .782 which is around league average.
metro
10/1/2009-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
.782 OPS was good for 15th out of 17 eligible RF in 2007 and Omar actually DID try and upgrade over Valentin offering Julio Lugo 4 years 40 million, thank God he turned it down.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
I think you are focusing too much on position. Position does not matter in a lineup. How many players were below league average production over all?
metsgirl31
10/1/2009-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
+1
metro
10/1/2009-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
Oh yeah and K-Rod simply replaced a player we already had on the roster (Billy Wagner) so what exactly was “upgraded” in the off-season over prior seasons? JJ Putz over Aaron Heilman is the only thing I can see.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
“JJ Putz over Aaron Heilman is the only thing I can see.”
Based on their last few years, this was a GIGANTIC upgrade, and to the part of the team unquestionably MOST in need of an upgrade, the bullpen after the closer….
metro
10/1/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Last FEW years? JJ Putz 2008- 1.6 whip, Aaron Heilman 2008 1.6 whip and 2007 Aaron Heilman was EXCELLENT 3.03 era 1.07 whip.
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
No offense, but this is becoming a joke.
You cite Heilman’s 2007 stats and ignore JJ’s??
In 2007 JJ Putz had 40 saves in 42 tries.
His other stats were: 71.2 IP, 37 H, 13 BB, 11 TOTAL R, 82 K, a 1.38 ERA, and a WHIP of .698.
JJ’s 2007 year is one of the very best years any active closer has had.
I am done for now, before you again tell us that KC is a major hitter’s park.
metro
10/1/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Huh? My argument was that his injuries were no “surprise” he was coming off a year where he put up a 1.6 whip, that should have been totally ignored in conjunction with KNOWN spurs in his elbow?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
However, what you can not know is how much the surgery had helped JJ. He was pitching at the time pain free with a return in velocity.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Baring this year’s results, how can you not think Krod was an upgrade on Wagner. Wagner had blown 7 saves before he was injured and his arm was a ticking time bomb. Yes Krod has struggled this year but we also know that he has even said it has been a tough year for him because of the losing.
metro
10/1/2009-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
I can only imagine what people would be saying if it were Wagner blaming losing for his poor performance.
darknova306
10/1/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Tough year because of the losing? So you should only be expected to perform when the team is winning a lot? You can’t be expected to do your job well on a bad team? Gimme a break, that’s a garbage excuse.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
I did not say it was justified. I am saying he may have pitched better if we were competitive. Remember Wagner said the same thing when he was used in a nonsave situation as did Putz.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
This is more of the same: justifying poor performances, lack of focus and preparation on the fact that the season is lost.
Again, this is classless and unprofessional. And perhaps the season wouldn’t have been lost so early if instead of feeling bad for themselves they tried to play the game the right way.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Maybe, I am saying that it happens right or wrong. MANY closers use that for an excuse. Does not make it right but also does not make it a Mets only issue.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
I don’t care whose issue it is. And it’s not just F-Rod. You’ve used that same excuse for Pagan (today and in the past) and the voluminous other examples of laziness, unpreparedness and lack of interest.
It’s not acceptable whether it happens elsewhere or not. Players with these types of attitudes don’t belong here.
And I find it particularly disturbing that fans could accept such excuses.
metro
10/1/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
I just think if Wagner used the excuse people would be destroying him right now.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
I accept it is as part of today’s game. Does no make it right but does mean that it happens and is an issue in every sport on good and bad teams.
metro
10/1/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Well with K-Rod I can at least SEE the argument. With Pagan the guy is fighting for his career, so if he can’t “get up” now then he isn’t someone I want on my team.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Pagan is not fighting for his career. He will have a spot somewhere next year no matter what.
metro
10/1/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
He absolutely was a potential AAAA player before this year and thus THIS chance is what has helped him secure a role which means he should be playing his ass off winning team or not.
metro
10/1/2009-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
Pagan was a lock to be on an MLB roster in 2010 before his chance right now? Coulda fooled me.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t see how Pagan was guaranteed anything before his recent impressive stretch of hitting (and unimpressive everything else).
And I don’t really see how he’s guaranteed anything now.
While he’s got physical gifts, he’s not exactly a solid baseball player.
trs86
10/1/2009-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
How long has it been since Pagan has not gotten paid?
darknova306
10/1/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
You need a good team around the stars, regardless. That’s where Omar fails. Having fewer stars but better mid-level players is a more complete team, which is what I’d rather have. Also, I saw this rotation as a HUGE question mark coming into the season. Maine coming off surgery, Ollie being Ollie, and Pelfrey coming off one good second half with an innings load increase of almost 50 from 07 to 08. Not to mention the grab bag of awful pitchers competing for the 5 spot (though Livan wound up being very respectable there).
trs86
10/1/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Our #5 starter selection to me was actually one of the things he got right. We had tons of guys that could pass as #5′s. What upset me was not adding a true midrotation starter. He got duked into Perez again and that hurt.
darknova306
10/1/2009-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Alright, that’s a fair point. I still can’t stand Tim Redding, though. I never wanted him anywhere near this team. Can’t wait till he’s gone.
metro
10/1/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Redding/Livan weren’t the issue, and while 3 years 36 was ridiculous for Ollie, nobody expected him to suck THIS bad, I think most of us expected him to do what he did in 2008, however counting on Maine and not worrying at ALL about the Verducci effect on Pelfrey was pretty dumb.
metro
10/1/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
How did they expect to keep Pelfrey’s innings “down” with Perez and Maine in the rotation with Redding?
trs86
10/1/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Redding had pitched 182 innings the year before. For a #5 that was not an issue. Oliver Perez had pitched 194 innings the year before.
metro
10/1/2009-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
194, 182 and John Maine 140, not exactly horses.
metro
10/1/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
They lost Manny for 50 games injury or not, Russell Martin has been HORRIBLE and they have won 90+
trs86
10/1/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
So 1 player for 50 games and 1 player under performing. Compared to Delgado, Reyes, Beltran, Johan, Putz, Perez…
metro
10/1/2009-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Um, are you purposely ignoring everything I say? He said
“Did the Dodgers have as many players this good? Did even ONE of their key players have an injury?
Uh, no.”
And I pointed out, no but they DID lose a key player for 50 games, is that a fact or not?
trs86
10/1/2009-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, they lost him to roids, but the question was did they lose anyone significant to injury? LOL.
metro
10/1/2009-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
It has the same effect on the lineup no matter WHAT you lose a player to does it not?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
You are forgetting that baseball has a bench and a pitching staff. Take a look at the Phillies bench compared to ours or their pitching staff at the BEGINNING of the year.
And if Muniz was PROJECTED to be league average after hitting a line of .620 OPS the year before then Schneider was projected to be an all-star at .707. Not to mention that Ryan Church and Castillo IF healthy would have been close to league average. Daniel Murphy was not league average, you are correct, but they also brought in Sheff and had Pagan who based on numbers alone as you seem to love WERE league average.
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Pagan was a league average what prior to this season? Injured 5th outfielder?
trs86
10/1/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
If he can say that Ruiz was league average then should I not be able to say that based on numbers Pagan and Sheff combined for league average production this year?
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
I think he was talking about projections prior to the season. If Sheffield or Pagan looked like league average players to you prior to this season then I commend your prognostication skills.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
“Carlos Muniz (even he is only slightly below average for a MLB catcher by the numbers)”
Really?
wannybackstra
10/1/2009-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
I don’t see where I mentioned Carlos Ruiz’s name.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
LOL, Wanny you nut job.
“I think he was talking about projections prior to the season.”
And my response to HIM was that Pagan and Sheff turned out to be league average too. Ruiz should never be considered going into a season even close to league average.
metro
10/1/2009-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Yes I was talking about their projections PRIOR to the year. Neither Pagan or Sheffield looked likely to perform to “league” average numbers based on their 2008 seasons (Sheffield looked cooked in ST too)
trs86
10/1/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
And Ruiz did?
metro
10/1/2009-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
Um, I already cited Ruiz as one of their TWO BELOW AVERAGE regulars. Not to be a dick but I suggest you re-read what I said. I said the Phillies had 2 players projected to be below average regulars and the Mets had 4.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
But you justified Ruiz because he hit league average this year.
metro
10/1/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Trs, what I meant was the league average for catchers is so bad that both Schneider and Ruiz were not THAT far from league average despite sucking.
metro
10/1/2009-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
Ruiz and Schneider (prior to this year for Schneider) were both bad offensive players but only slightly below league average. Murphy and Church were both guys who would have SHOCKED to be league average at 2 key offensive positions.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Is CF a key offensive position? Is SS a key offensive position? So being that we have/had 2 WAY above league average players at those 2 spots would that not allow you to have slightly below league average guy in 2 other positions?
metro
10/1/2009-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
And the Phillies have above average offensive from CF, SS (yeah Rollins is having a down year), PLUS 1b/RF/LF/ and obviously 2b. The “advantage” of a plus SS and/or CF is negated somewhat when you have below average players at other positions.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Vicki has never finished a season with an OPS over .800 he’s at .808 this season.
metro
10/1/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah and compared to other MLB CF’s he ranks 3rd in baseball in OPS amongst CF behind only Hunter and Kemp so Victorino is a PLUS offensive CF and thus the Phillies hold an offensive advantage in CF over MOST teams in baseball as they do at SS, 2b, 1b, as well as RF and LF.
metro
10/1/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Last year he was 9th amongst MLB CF, aka above average.
metro
10/1/2009-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw Jerry Manuel’s career managerial record. 7 full seasons as manager and 2 of them 85 or more wins, 90+ games 1 time, 85 or more 2 times (including his 95 win season) and 83 or less games 5/7 times, under 500 3/7 times and 500 1 time, so 4/7 seasons Jerry has been 500 or worse, 1 season 83 wins, 1 season 86 and 1 season 95. How in the hell is this guy coming back? Is he to blame for the season? No, but that shouldn’t save his job, he has done an awful job with decision making, with lineups and has been here since 2005. If the players aren’t responding now they never will.
udontmesswthejohan
10/1/2009-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
Cmon man, this stuff has been discussed ad naseum.
metro
10/1/2009-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Oh yeah and finally the Mets couldn’t have “predicted” injuries? John Maine shouldn’t have been a concern coming off elbow surgery? JJ Putz coming off a CAREER of arm issues (including bone spurs in 2008 which finally shut him down in 2009), they KNEW about Delgado’s hip issue etc. Hey well at least they are quick to resign Alex Cora. Great way to spend money on a limited budget a guy with a .630 OPS COMING OFF 2 THUMBS SURGERIES, making 2 million this year (and unlikely to take a significant pay cut). So if Cora has a thumb issue next year I don’t want people saying “well injures killed us!”
Kingman 26
10/1/2009-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
Well, I guess it is true, every player who has ever had an injury is guaranteed to get hurt again.
JJ pitched 8 innings in 8 games in Sept 2008–allowed 5 H, 2 BB, 2 R (in one game only), 1 HR, and struck out 13 in those 8 innings.
Yeah, this injury was SURE to happen based on his end of 2008.
metro
10/1/2009-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
8 innings is enough to believe a player is healthy? Again I linked his arm history (he has had issues EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his career and the Mets traded for him KNOWING about the bone spurs, not to mention it was recommended in April that he have the surgery and they decided to have him pitch through it, a decision that hypothetically (had they been good) could have cost them any chance of Putz helping them down the stretch.
metro
10/1/2009-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Oh yeah and when we traded for him EVERY article said his velocity had been way down all of 2008, so if that’s not a red flag I don’t know what is.
stickguy
10/1/2009-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
Jerry winning 95 is like Willie winning 95ish in 2006.
DOes it mean they were actually good managers? No. It just was one of those magical years where everything went right (lousy teams in the division, good health, guys having career years, sunspots, fluky BABIP, bigfoot, etc.)
Did either guy really bring anything to the table? Not that I can tell. Mostly they were lucky enough to be there, and managed to stay the hell out of the way and to not screw it up (until the NLCS at least for Willie).
the better measure is, what happens when it isn’t that magical season? Do they seem to do anything to keep the team focused? Overcome problems? make them better than they really should be?
Again, not that I can tell (and en emphatic NO for jerry). And I think his record bears that out.
The Mets also have the unique situation of a ton of baggage, and a combustible fan base right now (and a whacko FO). So even if Jerry might have earned a pass due to injuries, the need to clean out the rotted stuff from the fridge means he needs to go anyway. Hey, sometimes lif sucks, just take your million for doing nothing (pretty much like you did this year) and go away.
All new coaches needed to send a message and set the tone, and they need to do it now (the firing) and soon after the WS (the hiring).
metro
10/1/2009-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
I’m hearing from someone I talk to that Dan Warthen will not be returning, FINALLY some good news.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
I think that was decided in June.
metsfan4decades
10/1/2009-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
You state how many games Phils won so far, how little the Mets one.
Obviously, I have no idea how this season would have played out how most of the Mets remained healthy but….
All win/losses numbers in the east would be different b/c I believe the Mets would have won more games against the division, lost more – and maybe the Phils then have less than the current 91 wins. Same with the Braves. We could have been sitting dead even right now with both those teams had things been different.
It’s something we’ll never know….
trs86
10/1/2009-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I mentioned that earlier and got no response. We were 11-7 with a terrible pen last year and the Philies being god reincarnate. Even if we went 9 and 9 this year then they would be below 90 wins.
metro
10/1/2009-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Again, we never know how things WOULD have played out but on paper we have 4 players in our lineup who were unlikely to give league average production for their position (maybe Schneider is debatable) but Church, Murphy and Castillo (based on his 2008 please don’t tell me people expected him to hit .300 this year) Church and Murphy would have had to play FAR better than realistic to be league average in right and LF and Maine was coming off shoulder surgery (plus Tim Redding/Livan were our #5 and both suck)
trs86
10/1/2009-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
You can go back and look, I did expect Castillo to rebound to CAREER averages. Also Church if he rebounded to CAREER averages would have been close to league average. Maine was a question mark and Redding and Livan were very league average for #5.
metro
10/1/2009-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Church has never played every day and is AWFUL vs. lefties to prorate his numbers over a full season ESPECIALLY coming off the way 2008 ended is a little ridiculous no offense.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
So the 144 games in 2007 don’t count?
What about the: .272 .349.464 .813 that year?
metro
10/1/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
So coming off his 2008 it was reasonable to expect him to be his best ever in 2009? If thats the case why did Jerry decide Tatis would platoon with him and OPENLY say Murphy was better? His career .700 OPS vs. lefties should have concerned the Mets a bit. I hope I’m not coming off as a dick because I’m not trying to
trs86
10/1/2009-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Not at all, but those overall numbers show he was league average in 2007.
metro
10/1/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Your not an every day player if you are HORRIBLE vs. righties or lefties, the Nationals, Mets and now Braves all have seen that.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Fact is he never recovered from his injury. There are plenty of everyday players with worse splits. Obviously Church is not Ryan Howard so please excuse it but Howard’s splits show him only hitting .752 against LHP for his career. Of course he is an every day player.
How about Jimmy Rollins who has an OPS of below .700 against LHP this year. Should they expect better next year or find a platoon partner?
metro
10/1/2009-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Rollins career OPS vs. LHP is .783 so it’s safe to assume this year is a fluke. Ryan Howard is an absolute ANIMAL vs. righties, something Church is not.
metro
10/1/2009-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
Ryan Church doesn’t “murder” righties enough (.813 OPS) to make up for his inability to hit lefties. Howard for comparisons sake has a career 1.067 OPS vs. righties.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Again, not comparing Church to Howard. Just saying that to get back to league average considering you face more RH than LH it is sometimes ok to put up with a lower split. In Church’s case the fact that he had put up decent numbers in Washington as a whole and had put up great numbers prior to the injury in NY it was a risk worth taking.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
And obviously Howard murders RH pitching, but with those splits why play him against LHP? Why because they don’t have anything any better and he will face much more RHP than LHP.
metro
10/1/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
If I am so off here then why don’t we just go with what we have next year? Who is comfortable with Murphy our 2010 1b, Schneider back behind the plate, Pagan in LF, Frenchy in RF and a rotation of Santana, Ollie, Pelfrey, Maine, Niese with Parnell the set-up man? I know I’m not.
trs86
10/1/2009-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
No one. Who was comfortable with that going in? Was that what we had coming into this year?
metro
10/1/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Outside of Delgado over Pagan and swapping Frenchy for Church (2 comparable players for their careers) and Niese for Livan that is exactly what we had coming into this year and the odds of the Mets finding a comparable player to a healthy Delgado are pretty damn low.
trs86
10/1/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Right because we can’t get any top FA. LOL. Omar has shown no ability to get big name FA?
metro
10/1/2009-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
If the payroll is in fact cut to 120-125 it’s going to be quite tough. Especially considering in MY opinion there are only 3 “top” FA this year. Holliday/Bay/Lackey.
metro
10/1/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
I was responding to “Was that what we had coming into this year?” not that will be our roster in 2010
trs86
10/1/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Well then, how much of a difference would a Delgado over Pagan make?
metro
10/1/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Not 30 games.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
Duh, LOL. So I guess, Reyes, Beltran, Johan don’t account for any?
metro
10/1/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
So again, my original question are you comfortable with
Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Beltran
Frenchy
Pagan
Murphy
Santos
Santana, Perez, Maine, Pelfrey, Niese
for next year? If our ONLY problem is injuries then that squad should be pretty sweet.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Why would we sub out Delgado for Pagan? I am not getting it?
metro
10/1/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
No, Murphy was supposed to be our LF, he replaced Delgado at 1b, so Pagan replaces Murphy and it’s the same as the team (I think Frenchy and Church are about equal offensively, Santos and Schneider) everyone is comfortable saying would have won 90+, is the downgrade from Delgado to Pagan make you confident in 90+ to now thinking we won’t be good?
trs86
10/1/2009-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
Are you talking about next year? Are we saying we won’t bring in anyone for the offense? Who said that?
trs86
10/1/2009-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
But to answer your question, there is a HUGE difference in the impact Delgado has on a lineup over Pagan.
CaseStreet
10/1/2009-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
Actually, coming into the season I felt very good w/ the team. The glaring bullpen issue was adressed very well w/ K-Rod and Putz.
The question mark was Murph in LF and he would’ve been relegated to batting 7th.
We had a strong bench w/ Cora, Tatis, Reed, Castro and Shef.
Livan as the 5th starter innings eater, after beating Garcia and Niese for the job wasn’t a bad idea.
Pelf had a strong season last year and Maine had been the #2, Ollie was usual Ollie. All three could be #3 pitchers and were good for the 2-4 slots.
You could debate whether Omar should’ve given Lowe more years or money, but the rotation was still pretty good, especially if you had Garcia, Redding, Figgy and Niese as call-ups.
darknova306
10/1/2009-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
I still disagree with the faith everyone puts in that rotation. Pelf’s innings load last year was ridiculous, I don’t care what his build is. You were really fooling yourself if you thought he’d be this year what he was in the second half of last year. And anyone putting any faith in Oliver Perez, well…. to each his own, I guess.
metro
10/1/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
The verducci effect may not be perfect but it has merit.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Eh, good fight Metro. I will obviously never disagree that the Phillies lineup is better. Of course it is. However, I will not admit that we would have been out of the race if everyone were healthy.
metro
10/1/2009-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
Does it really matter who was right? If Reyes is not 100% I will have a hard time getting excited for 2010.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Unless really solid moves are made, you are right.
CaseStreet
10/1/2009-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
trs is trying to drive up his comments count. lol.
gotta say, it’s great this blog has such intense debate despite the current state of the team.
trs86
10/1/2009-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
Nah, I don’t need to I am coasting. Just really bored and really enjoy good debate.
metro
10/1/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
I’m really not a dick, I feel a little uncomfortable being “new” here and “fighting” with everyone but I enjoy a good argument as long as it’s not “yeah well the Phillies suck” or “Jerry Manuel has done a great job given the circumstances”. Everyone seem knowledgeable here and I think it’s fun to debate.
trs86
10/1/2009-1:45pm at 1:45 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, we all do this in great fun.
metro
10/1/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
Bottom line… Omar has to do a better job of finding the “Casey Blake’s” of the world more than signing one big name a year.
CaseStreet
10/1/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
tatis last year. cora this year.
metro
10/1/2009-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
Tatis and Cora? Cora had a .630 OPS this yeas and was brought in to backup Castillo/Reyes. Casey Blake makes 5 million (compared to Cora/Redding 4.5) and has a .836 OPS. We need role players like Blake ( not him specifically)
darknova306
10/1/2009-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
A lot of Cora’s numbers come from playing with a pair of busted thumbs, to be fair to him. He’s also not an everyday player. He was solid for the roll of a backup, especially with how even his outs were typically productive. He’s the ‘anything to help the team win’ kinds of guys that we don’t have very often.
metro
10/1/2009-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not ripping Cora. He did his job well enough. My point was we need to find more cost effective starters (Casey Blake types) to put around the stars. Cora is not a player of that caliber. Busted thumbs or not his career OPS is .658, he is fine for what he does.
trs86
10/1/2009-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
But was he expected to be a starter? Were his numbers good enough for a backup IF? Compared to most teams? Yes.
metro
10/1/2009-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
And who said otherwise? I never mentioned Cora. I said we need to find better complimentary players like the Dodgers have in Casey Blake, somehow Cora/Tatis were offered as examples of these players. Cora/Tatis are pure bench players. Blake is a complimentary (he makes 5 million) starter, there is a big difference.
trs86
10/1/2009-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Wasn’t Blake signed with the intentions of starting somewhere? We are confusing role players and bench players?
metro
10/1/2009-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, and I never mentioned Casey Blake as a bench player.
I said “Bottom line… Omar has to do a better job of finding the “Casey Blake’s†of the world more than signing one big name a year.” Where does that translate or imply bench player?
darknova306
10/1/2009-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, I have to do so much scrolling in this thread. :p