Oct 06
www.beyondtheboxscore.com Justin Bopp
Thanks to Matt Cerrone for this link.
According to www.beyondtheboxscore.com Daniel Murphy ranks 2nd in the NL in UZR/150 and Justin has used a new graph called UZR Target View to illustrate it.
Very interesting read. Not even going to pretend that I understand it at all.
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117 comments
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
O.K., I read a few links to try and figure out what this is and I won’t pretend I’m getting it. So much so that I didn’t even know if Murphy being second on the list was a really good thing, or really bad. That is until I saw Dunn and Johnson in the negative, then I’d have to assume the higher the number the better.
I wonder how much of that behind the back, eyes closed, flip to first and getting the out Murph managed this year attributed to him so high on this list. Last game of the year, SNY guys voted that one of the two top plays in the Met field this past year. The other being the HR Francoeur took away pulling that ball back from over the RF fence about a week ago when Misch pitched that complete game shutout…
Sometimes, all these sabermetrics just go right over my head. I guess I’m too much from the old school. LOL.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
The UZR Target View is just the image you see above. The guy w/ the dark blue on his name has the corresponding range you see in the bullseye on the right.
The stat that was used here is UZR/150 for NL 1B w/ at least 400 plate appearances.
According to fangraphs.com, UZR/150 is “The number of runs above or below average a fielder is, per 150 defensive games.”
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
Right. This is just an attempt to illustrate UZR/150.
trs86
10/6/2009-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Right but according to the UZR/150 Murphy ranked 2nd. Correct?
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
yes
trs86
10/6/2009-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
One thing this does make you wonder, now again I am sure there are other defensive stats that may not have him that high, but could we actually afford the potential drop off in defense going with LaRoche or Nick Johnson? To me this shows that the best plan is STILL to upgrade the rotation and LF first and then see what is left over for 1B.
Also, would MC please stop dissing Castillo with every other post? The guy has had a great year and was NOT the problem this year. Should we bring in a guy like Lopez for protection? Sure. That is what a good team does. But to say the Mets HAVE to get rid of Castillo and are going to spend valuable time this offseason working to dump him is just plain silly.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
that’s def the best plan.
Murph is the closest ML ready replacement we have.
F-Mart and Niese will both need a year in AAA, Thole too.
Re: Castillo, after reading this line you can pretty much understand why MC’s baseball IQ is non-existent:
“As an example of an ‘overpriced commodity,’ which should interest the Mets, Sherman lists Braves RHP Derek Lowe, who has three years and $45 million left on his contract; Royals RHP Gil Meche, who will earn $24 million the next two years; White Sox OF Magglio Ordonez, and his one-year, $15 million option; and Rays OF Pat Burrell, who will earn $10 million.”
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
I take it back. I misread and didn’t see it was Sherman who lists those players. I apologize.
Still, I don’t see why getting rid of Castillo should be such a priority.
Castillo’s contract is manageable and barring any injuries, we should expect to get similar results from him this year.
joed
10/6/2009-3:01pm at 3:01 pm (UTC -4)
At this point, Castillo is a value. No reason to show him the door after a solid season. Remember he made just $6 million compared to Schneider who made $5 million.
But my real question is, dont you think this UZR is kind of flawed?
If the determination is that Murphy is a better defender than Nick Johnson, Derek Lee, Adam La Roche, etc. Isn’t their something obviously flawed with UZR?
I myself am not a big saber guy, but it just seems that too much emphasis is being placed on UZR these days, and I don’t see what the big fuss is all about.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
teams like Seattle and Tampa have been using UZR when looking for players to build their teams. That’s how they improved their defense greatly which in turn improved their pitching.
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
I wonder what UZR/150 has to say about Akinori Iwamura and Ben Zobrist. I know TB won a lot more games when Iwamura was their primary 2B.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Zobrist graded out much higher defensively at 2B in 2009 (24.1 UZR/150) than Iwamura in 2008 (1.6).
joed
10/6/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
Lets take your example Tampa Bay. When you say they use UZR to build their team, are you referring to their draft strategy in the June Draft? I would think UZR data would be almost non existent at the college and high school level, but I may be wrong about that.
I’m assuming you mean using it with regards to signing free agents or making a trade.
Most of the Rays best players were drafted and as you know they were all mostly top five picks. The hitters like Crawford, Upton, and Longoria were drafted based on their offensive abilities. Of course they have proven to be adept at fielding their positions, but I think that more of a happy coinicidence.
I remember some other fellow Mets bloggers from another site, using UZR to show how bad of fielder Francoeur was and at that point I was like okay, what is it about UZR that makes a good defender look bad and a bad defender look good?
It just seems that the old fashioned way of looking at a players errors, fielding percentage and range was good enough. But mostly, the data refelcted what our eyes can see.
UZR, not so much.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
Visualization of real defensive value is as difficult as quantifying it statistically. For one thing, your memory does not take into consideration every occurrence during the season, i.e. it’s much easier to recall the plays that were made as opposed to the ones that weren’t. And then to what would you compare the plays that weren’t made?
UZR and Zone Rating charts at least provide a basis for comparison based on actual locations of fielded balls.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
What kills Frenchy is his range.
He has a great arm and is one of the leaders in the ARM stat, but his range just kills him.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
And keep in mind, UZR does not consider throwing ability or ARM stats, as you call them. It’s just about fielding batted balls.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primate_studies/discussion/lichtman_2003-03-14_0/
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
wanny, that may be old, cuz fangraphs glossary does include an OFers arm and IF ers double plays
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
Looks like you’re right, Case.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Tampa’s improvement—from the worst team in defensive efficiency in 2006 and ’07 to the best last year—was the result of the front office’s calculated effort, after the ’07 season, to catch the ball better. They replaced the shortstop combo of Brendan Harris (-10.5 career UZR, meaning he cost his team nearly 11 runs) and Ben Zobrist (-7.5 career UZR) with Jason Bartlett (34.7 career UZR). They moved Akinori Iwamura from third to second (where his UZR was 1.3 runs higher) to accommodate the call-up of Evan Longoria (14.9 UZR), and they dumped Johnny Gomes (-16.9 career UZR) and Delmon Young (-18.1 career UZR) from the outfield. “People saw the drop in our pitchers’ ERAs, and [the pitchers] did a great job,” says Friedman, “but a lot of credit goes to the runs the defense saved. Based on our internal numbers, a lot of credit.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153911/2/index.htm
joed
10/6/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
OK thanks, so it was regarding it’s use to make trades. That makes more sense.
But, my point is that I could have made the same discernable differences in those players defensively, using just errors, fielding percentage and range.
If any baseball GM traded Nick Johnson for Daniel Murphy citing that offense aside, Murphy was a better fielder and would improve the team, wouldn’t you have to say the guy is as crazy as a loon?
joed
10/6/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
By the way, I hope you don’t mind my questions on UZR. I happened across your post and it looked like a good topic of debate.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
agreed, re: Nick Johnson, that’s why you have to look at the whole picture and a guy’s body of work.
I’m still a novice re: UZR stats, but I’ve read enough interesting articles to know something about it.
BTW, I’d hold off on trading Murph until we’re sure Ike Davis is the real thing.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
that’s what UZR is, errors, range, double play and arm. It’s just calculated and combined into one stat.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
Having seen Nick Johnson look like a statue at 1B this season I am not at all surprised to see him below others according to UZR.
UZR does not consider reputation like Gold Glove voters do. And with Johnson north of 30 and coming off various injuries including a horrific leg injury and hamstring problems it shouldn’t be hard to justify the conclusion that his range has diminished.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
Not pretending to know exactly how UZR is calculated, based on my eyes Nick Johnson played a TERRIBLE 1B this year. And looking at him the last month in Fld, the guy could barely walk.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
Cerrone should stick to reporting on the chicken tacos in centerfield.
Mr North Jersey
10/6/2009-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Can I ask a question?
Before this UZR chart came out did everyone feel Murphy was possibly the 2nd best 1st baseman?
I sure don’t not to say he can’t eventually develop into a solid 1st baseman but all I heard last winter was how uzr projected Murphy to be a better Left Fielder than Manny and we all know where that ended.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
last year was a very small sample size.
this year, Murph has played 100 games at 1B. That’s a much larger sample size.
I don’t know if Murph’s #s would improve if he had played 150 games at 1B.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
Just like last year in the OF it is possible, if not likely that his smaller sample size worked to his advantage statistically.
Over the course of a full season his UZR/150 could drop below guys like A-Gonz and Derek Lee who are usually considered among the top defensive guys.
At the same time, the experience he had this season could help him get better. If you think about his errors, many were of the stupid, over aggressive variety (poor throws to 2B when the right play was to 1B, etc.). I don’t recall seeing many issues with his actual fielding of ground balls, etc.
Also, he looked bad a few times being out of position, etc., which probably doesn’t make its way into the calculations.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Derrek Lee is the epitomy of 1B defense. The cubs have a replacement in Hoffpair. I wonder why Lee isn’t on the trading block, yet.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
I thought I read some speculation somewhere that he might be as Chicago needs to cut some payroll. Between Hoffpauir and Jake Fox they might be okay (offensively) at 1B and eventually maybe Josh Vitters can move to 1B.
Mr North Jersey
10/6/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
My point is no one really believed Murphy was a top 3 defensive 1st baseman. Can he be? Sure, but again these uzr projections personally to me is the biggest crock that I have ever come across. But that’s just my opinion LoL.
joed
10/6/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
it’s a tool to help analyze the players. It shouldn’t be the end all be all, but rather another tool to help make informed decisions.
Looking at the list, there aren’t big surprises other than Murph. I expected him to be somewhere in the middle.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:13pm at 10:13 pm (UTC -4)
All I look at it right now is as a tool that measures range. Murphy as a young 3B who played some OF and has played a VERY aggressive 1B most likely would have high range numbers?
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
My obvious lack of understanding of defensive sabermetrics is illustrated by my shock at where Adam LaRoche is on the list. I don’t see him everyday, but on the occasions when I have watched him play I’ve always found him to be quite good “to the eye.”
I also agree completely with Wanny’s characterization of Murphy’s errors above, they were mostly errors of aggression committed due to inexperience, in other words, errors that should not be repeated assuming the ballplayer has some intelligence and learns from that experience.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
LaRoche’s range has dropped off from his 07 year. At least that’s what the stats say.
joed
10/6/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
What about all the mental errors, and the misplays where they gave the batter a basehit, or his terrible footwork which led to basehits, and his lack of muffing the ball in the dirt or offline throw which usually saddled Wright, Castillo or the shortstop with an error.
By the way Hebner, your eyes work just fine. LaRoche is a solid defender and I mentioned him myself a few comments up.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
The stats aren’t perfect, largely for the reasons you mention. But your observations aren’t either.
A guy can make dozens of diving catches, for example, and look like a stud. But then the location charts could show that he didn’t have to go all that far in the first place and should have been waiting under it.
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-5:50pm at 5:50 pm (UTC -4)
This article and the resulting discussion has been very informative and very civil. This post and it’s comments section are an example of everything that is right about this blog. Kudos to all.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-6:02pm at 6:02 pm (UTC -4)
shout out to Joe D from Mets Merized, for furthering the discussion
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-5:51pm at 5:51 pm (UTC -4)
Tigers up 3-0. I didn’t see that coming. Good thing I don’t live in Vegas or this would be (so far anyway) yet another bad bet on my part.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-8:11pm at 8:11 pm (UTC -4)
Well tied 4 all in the 8th here. A battle to the end…
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-9:35pm at 9:35 pm (UTC -4)
5-5 in the 12th, bases loaded, 2 out, the 2nd out on a force out at home. So this is what a meaningful elimination game is supposed to be like.
wannybackstra
10/6/2009-9:44pm at 9:44 pm (UTC -4)
Bobby Keppel and Carlos Gomez representing the Mets minor league system well.
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-9:58pm at 9:58 pm (UTC -4)
and Ron Gardenhire and Rick Anderson as manager and pitching coach respectively.
As a kid when playing wiffleball with my brother, if either of us ever hit a “foul home run” we called it a “Ron Gardenhire home run.”
wannybackstra
10/7/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Gardenhire was such a bad player for the Mets that in my Jewish populated neighborhood he was often referred to as “that Nazi” or Adolf.
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:03pm at 10:03 pm (UTC -4)
Congrats to Gomez, he must love being away from the Chokers of Queens. And they only had to give up a declining pitcher that’s been cut open every year we’ve had him. Nicely played, Twins…
trs86
10/6/2009-10:15pm at 10:15 pm (UTC -4)
Man now we got people questioning trading Gomez for Johan Friggin Santana. Nicely played Dark.
whataputz
10/6/2009-10:17pm at 10:17 pm (UTC -4)
I am the ultimate king o complaining. Are you seriously going to complain about the Johan deal? Gomez is not even an everyday player and he’s the best person we gave up for a guy who has busted his butt for us, and while he was hurt last year, he tried to single-handedly take us to the playoffs in ’08.
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:20pm at 10:20 pm (UTC -4)
No, I’m just venting. But seeing him cut open each year he’s with us does bother me, even if it’s minor things.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:25pm at 10:25 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, and he would have continued to pitch this year if he needed too. He may not be the best pitcher in the league this year or last but he is still among the top and if he was on the FA market would again be the top FA pitcher available.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-9:49pm at 9:49 pm (UTC -4)
LOL. It’s been too long…
Congrats. Minnesota!
That was some game.
Good to see we’re not the only team that can blow a 7 game lead going into the second week of Sept….
GravediggerHebner
10/6/2009-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
You know I didn’t realize that. Just reading your words and hearing Chip Caray casually slip in that Detroit had lost the “biggest lead in the history of the central division” reminds me that unless it happens in NY I guess it’s just not epic.
It would only be fair and just (meaning it will never happen) if the local Detroit and the national media spent the next 3 years constantly mentioning that historic lead being blown to the team and it’s fans.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
+1000
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:09pm at 10:09 pm (UTC -4)
Part of why it’s been constantly mentioned for 3 years for the Mets is because they choked a second time, and haven’t proven they be competent in the stretch run since.
But being in NY also keeps it rolling quite a bit, no way to deny that.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:12pm at 10:12 pm (UTC -4)
wow – you’re really living up to that ‘dark’ name tonight…
Mets didn’t choke in ’08. They just fell short. With that BP and no closer we’re lucky we stayed close for so long.
And Santana a ‘cut up, declining pitcher’? LOL. Yeah, I get this season was hard but man, it’s over.
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:16pm at 10:16 pm (UTC -4)
It wasn’t epic, but it was a choke.
And Santana hasn’t been the same since he came here, and he’s had surgery each year he’s been here.
But yeah, watching two teams on the field actually care in a game that matters made me angry at my team.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:18pm at 10:18 pm (UTC -4)
Mets didn’t choke in ‘08. They just fell short.
ARE YOU SERIOUS??????
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:19pm at 10:19 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I kinda gathered that, dark.
I’m over it. Have been for a good 6 weeks now. We were out of it so long ago….
All depends on the team they field and we’ll be watching come April. I could get angry again very quickly….
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:20pm at 10:20 pm (UTC -4)
I’d never thought I’d say this but…
Mrbill, the voice of reason.
Couldn’t agree more.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:27pm at 10:27 pm (UTC -4)
uh?
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
Division was up for grabs, but we played like ass in September. ‘fell short’ ‘choked’ whatever, it’s all the same: they couldn’t get it done when it mattered.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
My mistake. I actually thought you were exercising good judgement there and agreeing ’08 wasn’t a choke job.
I should have known better.
LOL.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:18pm at 10:18 pm (UTC -4)
How did a team that overachieved in 2008 choke? You have been on record many times saying that Omar did not do a good job of forming the team in 2007 or 2008. Thus, how do you choke when you are not championship caliber anyway?
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:26pm at 10:26 pm (UTC -4)
The division was up for grabs, but we played barely over .500 ball in Sept 08, this team can’t do anything in the stretch run.
They were overachieving, and I don’t know why, but when you are playing well, then you tank when you can take the division, that’s pretty lousy. I’d call it a choke.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:31pm at 10:31 pm (UTC -4)
They were overachieving, and I don’t know why, but when you are playing well, then you tank when you can take the division, that’s pretty lousy. I’d call it a choke.
Or could it be that you leveled out and the better team, the team that won the WS, finally got hot and played like a WS team? Nah. Lets take any credit away from the Phillies. We gave it to them, we should have won because we had a lead. Lets see that work in college basketball this year.
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:35pm at 10:35 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t follow college basketball, so I have no clue what you mean there.
Anyway, whatever, I’ll call it a choke and you can call it whatever you want. Done. I’m going to bed.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:38pm at 10:38 pm (UTC -4)
Later Dark. I forgot you guys in the north have no roots in college basketball at all I guess.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:02pm at 10:02 pm (UTC -4)
The Santana-Gomez trade doesn’t look too bad for the twins right now, does it?
I’m happy for Gomez and my paisano Orlando Cabrera!
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:05pm at 10:05 pm (UTC -4)
Pretty much spot on, there. And Cabrera is one of those good complimentary players that Omar is never good at acquiring despite a good team needing guys like that. Good for him getting back to the playoffs.
whataputz
10/6/2009-10:21pm at 10:21 pm (UTC -4)
Gomez is barely an everyday player that bats 9th and gets a hit 1 of every 5 ab’s, strikes out a ton,l and for all of his speed doesn’t even steal that many bases. Johan is a gaurenteed 6-8 innings 1-3 runs with 2 terrible starts a year. Yeah he was hurt this year, but we were done anyways. Lets just totally forget what that he pitched well enough to win a good 22 games last season.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:23pm at 10:23 pm (UTC -4)
I said NOW (as in TODAY) get it? Jeez
trs86
10/6/2009-10:27pm at 10:27 pm (UTC -4)
So you don’t think that if they had Johan Friggin Martinez instead of .227 .285 .335 .621 that this season would have never been in question for the Twins to start with? So yes, it still looks bad. It looks very bad that you can’t sign the best pitcher to put on your uniform. They had better hope they do not travel down that same road with their MVP.
CaseStreet
10/6/2009-11:42pm at 11:42 pm (UTC -4)
Johan Martinez? Is he related to Pedro Santana?
trs86
10/7/2009-8:11am at 8:11 am (UTC -4)
My bad, LOL. It was late and Mr. Alex had me disgruntle.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:22pm at 10:22 pm (UTC -4)
This is not a complementary player:
.227 .285 .335 .621
You guys would have Omar’s head for even having a guy with those stats on the team.
I am not sure I even understand the theories of some Mets fans anymore. We did not win so lets gripe and bitch the entire off-season. Instead of enjoying a good game between two teams and even pulling for the Twins you have to say something stupid like the Twins got the best out of the Santana trade because of Carlos Gomez and his .227 .285 .335 .621?
Seriously? With all the stuff you have to bitch and whine about this is the BEST you can do?
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:32pm at 10:32 pm (UTC -4)
Well, there are sore losers, and then there are sore losers…..
Sorry to be so blunt but with some on here tonight, it just smacks of sour grapes. Yeah, our season was over long ago. Yeah, we were disappointed the past 3 years.
It’s like that Twin/Tigers game brought all the resentment out again.
But as I said, I’m over it. Looking forward to 2010.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, it will only be a few of us though because they have already decided that no matter what we will fail. Must suck to never have any hope unless things go exactly as you plan.
whataputz
10/6/2009-10:35pm at 10:35 pm (UTC -4)
c’mon you’re telling me watching the twins celebrate didn’t bring the image of DWright and Jose running around Shea with cigars in their mouths, but instantly interrupted by that “Holy **** I screwed up!” Aaron Heilman stare? My dreams will be haunted by that image tonight.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:39pm at 10:39 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry, whataputz but no, I’m not doing any comparisons here. We had our chance in ’06 and we didn’t get it done. It’s over with.
The image of Wright and Reyes with those champagne soaked cigars is forever burned in my memory banks.
I’m just not into comparing that to what the Twins just did. Did I want it to be us? Hell yeah. But that fantasy went out the window months ago….
trs86
10/6/2009-10:40pm at 10:40 pm (UTC -4)
Uhm… No? I am happy for the Twins. The Mets season is over with, why would I think “Ah Man the Twins win, I am angry”?
whataputz
10/6/2009-10:49pm at 10:49 pm (UTC -4)
Not angry, but it sucks to see other teams celebrate, when our team is done.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:55pm at 10:55 pm (UTC -4)
As a fan of baseball, when a team like the Twins do what they did I love it.
It’s what gives me hope for the next year. A lot of people doom the Twins every year too and criticize them and their owners for falling short year after year.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:03pm at 10:03 pm (UTC -4)
I wonder if Santana was watching… Hopefully Reyes will have Gomez’s speed back next year.
darknova306
10/6/2009-10:07pm at 10:07 pm (UTC -4)
If Reyes is even healthy at all next year…
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:16pm at 10:16 pm (UTC -4)
I know… it’s a big IF.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:23pm at 10:23 pm (UTC -4)
Looks like tonight you have found your Alex. Only problem is Dark is actually slightly intelligent. So in that sense you will have to be Alex and he can be MrBill.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:25pm at 10:25 pm (UTC -4)
How did a team that overachieved in 2008 choke?
Unbelievable! Come on!Ooooh the pain! Who is kidding who? What a disaster of a statement. seriously trs.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
Seriously, Alex. How did a team that you have said was not good enough to win, choke? How do you choke if you are not the better team? Isn’t that just called the better team doing what they are supposed to do? So you honestly do not think that in 2008 that IF they had solved the bullpen issue that we could have found a way to win 1 more game? If not then what does that mean? It means that we were an incredibly flawed team in your eyes that was lucky to ever be in the lead to start with.
whataputz
10/6/2009-10:30pm at 10:30 pm (UTC -4)
yeah they chocked in ’08. Especially with what had happened in ’07 to once again blow it down the stretch again in my book is definitely a choke.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:32pm at 10:32 pm (UTC -4)
They did not blow it down the stretch, they started playing like the team they HAD BEEN ALL YEAR. And then the Phillies stopped playing like a crappy team and started playing like the team THEY HAD BEEN ALL YEAR.
mrbill
10/6/2009-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
look TRJ, I had no idea my comment re Gomez/Cabrera was going to cause you to lose your mind lol…. it was an innocent comment just to congratulate those guys. that’s it. I’ll let you fight yourself now. Adios
trs86
10/6/2009-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
Uhm, because you have no case Alex?
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:36pm at 10:36 pm (UTC -4)
Come on, you all have to agree giving up Gomez as part of the Santana trade was a no brainer. He’s a defensive 4th OF, nothing more.
I’ll have to give the Twins credit though. They brought him in late innings as a replacement and he batted cleanup for 5 innings. And did you look at that Twin lineup in the late innings? They got the job done though. You have to give them credit.
And the momentum they’ve got going coming down the stretch, winning this 163rd game, maybe it carries over starting tomorrow night and they take the Yanks down.
Go Twins!
trs86
10/6/2009-10:42pm at 10:42 pm (UTC -4)
He’s not even a 5th OF on most teams. Think how angry fans would be in NY if we had a guy on our bench with his stat line. These guys get on Reed and he looks like an all-star compared to those stats.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
You know, I remember when he was on the Mets him and Reyes having a race and Gomez winning. He’s got some speed, you have to give him that. But the puzzling thing is, even with that speed, for whatever reason, he doesn’t seem to steal many bases when he gets on.
whataputz
10/6/2009-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
because it usually takes 3 pitches for him to get over the fact that he actually got on base.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, gotta remember how Endy was fast too and was a TERRIBLE base runner.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:54pm at 10:54 pm (UTC -4)
LOL.
Yeah, I don’t follow the Twins enough to know if this is as good as it gets with Gomez or the coaches over there just aren’t mentoring or working with him enough at the ML level, to utilize whatever talents he’s got.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
Considering what scouts told us here, what they have said there, his minor league numbers and his major league numbers, I don’t think he is going to suddenly take off into all-star status anytime soon regardless of coaching.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
Or even how Pagan is the best athlete on the team but he obviously is not good at using it on the base paths.
metsfan4decades
10/6/2009-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
You know, if someone could teach baseball instincts, and get through to Pagan, we’d have a heck of a player in him.
darknova306
10/7/2009-5:57am at 5:57 am (UTC -4)
Honestly, if someone could teach Pagan baseball instincts, I’d give him a shot at the starting LF job next year. Too bad he’s ‘run’ himself out of that chance.
trs86
10/7/2009-8:13am at 8:13 am (UTC -4)
No way do I give him a shot to start, can’t afford that stick in LF and Murphy at 1B. If there was a stud 1B available I would agree.
darknova306
10/7/2009-9:10am at 9:10 am (UTC -4)
I agree. That’s why I said it was contingent on him learning baseball instincts, which won’t happen.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Now if we want to send a message to the Twins about how great Gomez is and can get them to trade the hated Delmon Young to us for spare parts I would be very happy to say how great Gomez is.
trs86
10/6/2009-10:59pm at 10:59 pm (UTC -4)
Oh and before anyone jumps on the Young sucks parade, can we notice that he is the same age as Gomez?
Kingman 26
10/6/2009-11:13pm at 11:13 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!!
Gomez? If he was on the Mets with his stats people would be mocking him, lambasting our minor league system, and calling for Omar’s head!
What a game! Great baseball, clutch hitting, clutch pitching, great fielding, awesome.
How long till spring training??
stickguy
10/6/2009-11:47pm at 11:47 pm (UTC -4)
listened to some of the better parts of the game on the radio. Sounds like a great game to watch.
Must have caused heart attacks a few times to the twins fans!
If it wasn’t Minn vs. Det., it would probably go down as an instant classic.
Can you imagine if it had been the yankees and red sox playing this game? ESPN would have had to cancel the Favre channel to put this on 24-7!
darknova306
10/7/2009-5:51am at 5:51 am (UTC -4)
It was a total classic. Doesn’t hit me like game 5 in ’99 did against the Braves, but this was one of the most thrilling regular season games I’ve ever seen.
wannybackstra
10/7/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
I’m quite certain most major league GMs would trade 20 Carlos Gomezes today for one Johan Santana — even those who think Gomez will become a good hitter (which may still be the case).
I hope Angel Pagan is traded this offseason (for what I don’t care but if it is something serviceable then I’ll take it). He might have some value considering how well he hit this year and the fact that he is still young with projection. But he’s simply not a baseball player. And his lack of baseball IQ is more of a detriment to the team than his bat is an advantage. It also wouldn’t surprise me if his hitting this season was well more than can be expected againn.
CaseStreet
10/7/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
unless you think we can get something of value, why trade Pagan?
We got him for nothing, he’s been a good backup and he’s cheap. For the past few years, he’s been stellar for the Mets as a replacement. He’s not an everyday guy, though.
Like you said, he’s got talent. You can’t teach talent, but you can certainly teach baseball IQ. Unfortunately, the Mets haven’t taught him anything.
wannybackstra
10/7/2009-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Well that’s just it, Case. I can’t imagine a team led by Jerry can teach anyone anything. More importantly, I’m not so sure what ails Pagan can even be taught. The mistakes he makes on the basepaths and in the outfield are mistakes little leaguers know instinctively not to make. Does someone really have to tell him to stop running after a routine fly ball has been caught?
Angel might very well be Ollie Perez with a bat.
My theory on player retention is generally that if they are not part of the solution — and I do not think Angel is — then you might as well give someone else a shot. Sure, he might be able to fill in and put a decent batting average. But he will hurt them more with his nonsense than he will help them. I’d rather have a solid baseball guy like Cory Sullivan, who won’t hit as much as Angel can, but can fill in defensively and play responsibly.
CaseStreet
10/7/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
I get it, but Pagan just brings more to the table with his speed and overall talent.
I guess, in a non-consequential role like backup OF, I’m more willing to take a chance with more upside.
Quickly glancing over their stats, I’d say Pagan has Sullivan beat. Though, there’s some things you can’t measure.
wannybackstra
10/7/2009-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
Fair enough. Hopefully, Omar moots this point by bringing in Carl Crawford for LF and signing Matt Holliday as the 4th outfielder!
trs86
10/7/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Pagan for sure has had more time, but did we not see a lot of the same errors on the basepaths with Murphy? I think Pagan is too talented not to have a spot somewhere. That being said, if we can get a decent return for him from someone thinking he could start… trade him.