Today, hopefully, will be the last day we discuss the results of the 2009 WS. I do offer congratulations to our cross-town rivals and show no sense of jealousy towards them. They did what they had to do in a system that allows them to do it. Instead of whining today about how much money they spend, lets focus on the fact that the Yankees did what was in their power to win. Obviously we will never have the budget of the Yankees and hopefully never will but what the Mets have to do is figure out what IS in their power and use all of it to put their team in the best position to win.Â
Let the Hotstove begin…. NOW!
300 comments
prismo
11/5/2009-8:27am at 8:27 am (UTC -4)
Lackey and AGonz for the win!
trs86
11/5/2009-8:28am at 8:28 am (UTC -4)
Yeah that would work.
metsfan4decades
11/5/2009-8:30am at 8:30 am (UTC -4)
I’m in.
If only…
prismo
11/5/2009-8:35am at 8:35 am (UTC -4)
If Omar really wanted it to happen, it could.
The money’s do-able since Gonzalez is so cheap.
I’m terrible at making fantasy trades, but I imagine Murphy and Maine would be a good start (with a top prospect or two).
trs86
11/5/2009-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
They have no need for Maine though. He is not cheap enough or under control long enough.
If you want Agonz you would have to start with 3/5 top prospects in the system because we know the Redsox are willing to do the same.
metsfan4decades
11/5/2009-8:43am at 8:43 am (UTC -4)
I guess the debate is should we give up those 3 prospects for Agonz. Depends on who those 3 prospects are, but I would do it.
prismo
11/5/2009-8:48am at 8:48 am (UTC -4)
I would do it if the Mets agree to spend more money on drafts and the farm system in general.
trs86
11/5/2009-8:50am at 8:50 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm, Fmart, Murphy, Mejia?
prismo
11/5/2009-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
Done deal, by far. Bye guys. (I think it would take one more prospect though)
The real thing that tips this in favor of my wanting to do it is that AGonz has 2 years left before FA.
trs86
11/5/2009-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I was saying that as a starting point. Most likely it would take Davis instead of Murphy and then a guy like Tejada as well.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
SD has Kyle Blanks to play 1B. Don’t see what they would do with Murphy and not sure if they think Davis can play the OF in Petco.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Got any ideas then Wanny?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
Not really. I just think it is useful to consider that the other team may not want whatever it is we decide to give them.
I think it is more likely they’d want F-Mart and multiple pitchers (assuming they even like Fragile Mart).
Kyle Blanks has big time offensive potential and he started to show it at the major league level last season. He’s got no business being in the outfield.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
Not disagreeing. I guess we can also think they could trade Davis for pitching prospect we don’t have.
I would just think that if we have a chance it’s going to take our best and right now he is one of them.
I ask this earlier, do they have a lot of good young pitchers that would make Maine and Niese less relevant? I would think they had no use for Maine at all.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
I think Maine and Neise would certainly be attractive talent wise. But I agree with you that Maine doesn’t make a lot of sense for them service-time/salary wise.
I also agree that the Mets would have to give their very best for Gonz.
Would not surprise me if the initial demand was for Fragile Mart, Niese, Mejia and Holt.
I doubt the Mets would do that. Maybe they could negotiate down to Fragile, Niese, Parnell and someone a little further away.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Do you know enough about their system to know how much a back-end guy like Niese who is major league ready is needed?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
I really don’t know too much about their system. But I don’t think it is considered very high end and they certainly do not have any high ceiling close to the majors pitchers other than Matt Latos (who would certainly be the Mets top prospect).
Their interest in Niese might depend on how much they like Clayton Richard and Aaron Poreda, two guys they acquired for Peavy. Neither figures to be front end type pitchers and some scouts even think Poreda is destined for the pen.
I think Niese would interest them but they probably wouldn’t salivate over the thought of acquiring him.
metsfan4decades
11/5/2009-8:58am at 8:58 am (UTC -4)
In a heartbeat.
I would think it will take a pitcher more ML ready though like Niese.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:01am at 9:01 am (UTC -4)
Good point, problem is how is their pitching situation? How many young cheap pitchers do they have better than Niese?
Maybe it takes Davis, Fmart, Havens, Parnell?
I really have no idea.
prismo
11/5/2009-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
In any case, that’s not our job. It’s Omar’s job to ask them what they’re interested in and try to work something out, if that’s the road he chooses to take. But surely we do have the prospects to get it done.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
Of course if we give our top 4 prospects we can most likely get it done. Not sure I want that. But a lot depends on who else is involved as to if we can get it done. If the Redsox are involved we will really have to anty up in prospects for sure.
dirtysanchez
11/5/2009-8:40am at 8:40 am (UTC -4)
Its finally OVER…
metfreak
11/5/2009-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
Not yet If you live in the tri-state area its non stop Yankee talk until next week . Like I said before what drives me nuts are those Yankee fans that watch only 5 Yankee games and wants to bust my chops today
trs86
11/5/2009-8:59am at 8:59 am (UTC -4)
It’s just called being a Mets fan. I know being a Mets fan there will be plenty of days and even years like this. Stinks but it’s what makes us a great fanbase.
metfreak
11/5/2009-9:05am at 9:05 am (UTC -4)
True all I have to say is GO METS 2010 and beyond
darknova306
11/5/2009-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
That’s why living here in western NY is nice, it’s all Sabres (and to a lesser extent Bills) talk. Don’t have to worry about listening to idiot bandwagon fans drone on and on about the Yankees. The few Yankees fans I know here are die-hards and can talk reasonably about all of it.
dirtysanchez
11/5/2009-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
Yea i hear ya. I mean its easier on me because i live in FL and there are not alot of yankee fans down here but can you imagine if the phillies won back to back. Damage control my friend, if you think your life is going to suck for a week….imagine the whole 2010 season hearing about how the phillies are the new yankee dynasty team.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
True, as I said when I decided to root against the Phillies, what’s one more championship for the Yanks and their arrogant fans? Does it really matter?
dirtysanchez
11/5/2009-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
exactly…most of them are not old enough to remember when they won them all lol. When you have been around since the begining, it should be assumed that you have more championships than everyone who came afterward. Nobody is going to catch up to them, let them and their banwagon fans have it.
prismo
11/5/2009-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
Well let’s be honest here, they have a LOT more than anyone else.
To the point where the fans actually believe they *deserve* to win World Series.
Ah well, it’s nice living in Maryland and not having to hear Yankee fans gloat today. There are a couple at work, but they’re not obnoxious.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, a guy on the radio brought up a good point. The Yankees do a lot of good for baseball as much as we hate it. They bring a lot of interest to the game around the world. Baseball needs the Yankees to be good to be popular. The caller brought up another good point. What do we expect the Yankee brass to do with all of their money they make? Keep it and become even more rich? Give it to a charity? Make the tickets free so more fans will become Yankees fans and even more so to create pressure on the Mets to lower ticket prices? The fact that the Yankees have the highest payroll is because they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. Unlike teams like the Pirates and others who don’t even spend to try and compete and pocket even the revenue sharing money.
Now enough Sankee love. I need to puke again.
dirtysanchez
11/5/2009-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
unfortunate, but very good point.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
The hyper-capitalist viewpoint. Let an entire sport exist for one team and its fans. No thanks.
The NFL is more popular and wealthier than MLB due to revenue sharing and parity, which leads to teams in markets like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, and Indianapolis being winners, along with the Giants.
Perhaps if MLB operated like the NFL, it would be MORE popular. And baseball did very well and expanded and made fortunes from the mid-60s to the mid-90s, with just two Yankee titles. Talk of contraction has existed for the first time during the recent Yankee dominance.
Sure, the Steinbrenners are dream owners for Yankee fans, but they are also pathologically selfish and self-righteous, and clearly believe that there are 29 teams in baseball whose role is to be the Washington Generals to the Yanks’ Globetrotters.
The Chicago Bulls’ dominance was due to having the greatest player and building the perfect supporting cast, not spending 50% more than the second highest spender.
And I would say it is very much unsubstantiated opinion that baseball needs the Yanks to win, or even that baseball is healthier when they do.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
You are right, they should stop spending money and just pocket it and become billionaires. How dare they invest it back in their team.
Again, your beef is with MLB, the players union and 90% of the owners not the Yankees. The Yankees are just spending about the same percentage as what they make as most teams. It’s not like George is taking out loans to raise his payroll. I have no problem with the Yankees spending all the money if there is no rule against it. Again, what SHOULD they do with it?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
“You are right, they should stop spending money and just pocket it and become billionaires. How dare they invest it back in their team.”
Did not say that…some folks on here have begun putting words in others’ mouths a lot lately….Prismo interrupted his whining for a few seconds the other day to call me an ignoramus for saying something which I did not even hint at.
My point is that MLB is a cooperative organization-yes, the teams compete, but not like WalMart and Target.
MLB provides the basis, structure, and foundation for the Yanks’ existence and success and wealth, and to me, helping make the overall sport strong and popular might be a nice goal for them as well. Other owners most certainly do think this way.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Then why is your beef with the Yankees for spending it? To me they did what they could using their resources to give them the best chance to win.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
No argument there.
I just personally think that all of the talk about how well they do this and how well they do that is utter baloney.
They spend 50% more than the 2nd highest team, and much more than double many teams!
That’s why they won this year.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Then why didn’t they win every year?
I think that is as bad as our excuses as to why the Phillies are better than us. We had a higher payroll so why were we not better than the Phillies? Because they used their resources better than us and stayed healthy.
whataputz
11/5/2009-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
Well TR, you bring up a good point. My answer is this..we’ll see what happens in the years to come. Its not like they’re gonna get worse. Its not like these guys are going anywherem they’re just going to add more talent, why would they stop losing? And yes they didn’t win World Series’ of late, but they make the playoffs every year. We spend the second most, and I’d be content with just being able to make the playoffs somewhat consistantly at this point.
stickguy
11/5/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Imagine that talk if You lived 15 minutes from CBP. That I was not looking forward to.
udontmesswthejohan
11/5/2009-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Spare me.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
Spare you what? Care to explain?
udontmesswthejohan
11/5/2009-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Sure.
Spare me this “congratulations to our cross-town rivals” crap.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Do they not deserve it? I don’t like it but should I pout and cry because they won or should I just say you were the better man and get on with what matters to me THE METS.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
They are not the better anything—they outspent the second-highest spending team by about 50%.
If the Phils had another $80 million in payroll, think the Yanks would have won?
trs86
11/5/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
What do you want them to do with that money Kingman?
trs86
11/5/2009-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
Seriously this payroll thing against the Yankees has been played out. I don’t get it. Yes they have more money than everyone else and spend it. If that is your problem then be angry at the MLB and the rest of the players and the owners for being adamantly against a salary cap.
I just don’t understand why we would hold it against the Yankees for using their resources and not just pocketing the millions of dollars they make.
udontmesswthejohan
11/5/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
I think the payroll issue is exacerbated when you add in their arrogant fans who seem to think that it is their birthright to wint he WS every year. Not only that, they want to make it appear that they won as a result of “gelling as a team” and “overcoming insurmountable obstacles”.
Lastly, you would be hard pressed to find a Yankee fan offer up congratulations so easily had the Mets won the WS. More likely, they would respond to the Mets winning with a yawn and say something like, “Well get back to me when you have won 27 rings”.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
If you were a Yankees fan, god forbid yuck, would you not feel the same way?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
I definitely blame baseball. The NFL and NBA have created leagues with serious parity via the salary cap.
In the NBA, do we need Tim Duncan and LeBron on the Knicks? Do we need every star on the Giants for the NFL to succeed?
And let’s not forget that MLB has been around for over a century, and without MLB, the Yanks cannot go off and make all of this money on their own–the Yanks are PART of an organizational league, which gives them the basis for their wealth and success. I understand that there are two sides to this, but after all, it is not as if the Steinbrenners invented baseball and founded the Yanks. The basis of the Yanks’ great popularity was cemented from the early 20s to the mid-60s. And without the MLB organization, who would the Yanks play and how would they generate all of this revenue?
The sport which has helped make the Steinbrenners so wealthy would very possibly be better served by a serious salary cap, which has clearly helped the NFL.
The Steinbrenners, Jerry Joneses, and other patholically greedy and selfish owners could not care less if the Pittsburghs and Minnesotas never ever have a winning season. George and Jerry did not invent their sports or their leagues, and while they have clearly done a good job in continuing the winning legacy which they purchased and did not start, they also could not care less about other teams and other teams’ fans.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
just because the rules are unfair, doesn’t mean the fans can’t put an asterisk on the WS title.
udontmesswthejohan
11/5/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
To be honest, no. I would hope to act with a little class.
The thing is, with virtually every other fan base in baseball, if they won a WS, they would be happy and content, but not these idiots. I mean for god sakes, we are still living off of 1986.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Then as I said your issue is with the MLB the MLBPA and 90% of the owners. Even the Phillies players themselves were adamantly against the salary cap when ask during a WS against the team with the 200 million payroll.
Again, the point of the post is congrats to the Yankees they did what it took to win using their resources. Now lets move on and try and do the best with our resources. If that is cash, prospects, homegrown talent whatever our management needs to use all of our resources just like the Yankees did.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
except the Mets play by the rules by not going over the luxury tax.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
The luxury tax threshold is not a hard cap. The Yankees have not broken any rules.
If you buy a big house in a nice neighborhood. Other people will be jealous. But you didn’t break any rules. And you pay higher property taxes which presumably has a positive effect on the community.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Agreed just because the Mets respect a soft rule does not mean others are required to. The Redsox have broken it before too if I remember correctly. That being said we can’t have it both ways.
I have heard people say how the Wilpons are cheap and won’t go the extra mile and then turn around and insult the Yankees for doing the same thing.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
I was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and Buster Olney said something very interesting. Some teams are looking to CUT players before the arbitration due date (sometime in December). So these players become non-tenders He threw in names like Garrett Atkins and Jeremy Hermida. I think Hermida would be one option that the Mets can explore. I’m not quite sure that the salary situation would be for non-tenders, but he would be a good pick up.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
looks like he wrote an article about it last week. i don’t have the ESPN insider membership, but the first couple paragraph sounds interesting.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4610865&name=olney_buster&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d4610865%26name%3dolney_buster
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
I was just listening to the same thing. He said GMs are expecting an unprecedented number of non-tenders, as well as trades of other guys like Mark Teahen, etc.
These types of moves may play into the Mets hands because they reduce demand for free agents and lower prices. In the alternative they may be able to pick up a piece via trade on the cheap.
I would expect most of the non-tenders to be traded, especially Hermida.
trs86
11/5/2009-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Yeah we talked about Hermida. You would think considering his salary is low and under contract the Marlins would trade him be for the just release him?
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
But the teams already know that the Marlins might cut him, in which case Marlins don’t have much bargaining chip. But getting Hermida via trade wouldn’t cost the Mets whole lot either. Just give up some guys like Lindstrom.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
LOL, was that a shot or a serious comment? You can never tell when Lindstrom is metioned.
But yeah they know they may cut him but if I am correct to a point Wanny brought they would not be on the hook for his entire salary even if they offered arbitration and brought him to ST. I am sure they can get someone for him but if they are getting a scrub then why trade him in division unless we offer a better scrub than anyone else.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
I was just being sarcastic with Lindstrom, but you bring up a good point. The important thing here is the fact guys like Hermida are going to be on the market, which makes this winter a lot more interesting.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
ah, save me. I’m being bombarded by Skankee Fans.
151 more days. Fitting since I feel like drinking some 151 right about now.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
the idea of the Yankees going after Holliday or Lackey, really scares me.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
I honestly could see them getting Bay/Holliday, Harden and Gonzalez. That to me makes a lot of sense for them.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Not Adrian Gonzalez? or Mike Gonzalez?
stickguy
11/5/2009-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
go to vegas and bet your 401K on the Yankees signing Holliday.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
Don’t have much left in my 401k….
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
Then avert your eyes from LF in the Bronx next year, as clearly it will be being patrolled By Matt Holliday.
trs86
11/5/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Maybe, could be a Beltran situation where we end up blowing him away and grossly overpaying. But yeah I fully expect either Holliday or Bay to play LF for the Yankees next year.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
really, I only care about Lackey.
Holliday can’t pitch a shutout.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
How do you know? Have you ever seen him pitch?
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
I don’t see it. Maybe Holliday, but it’s highly likely that either Damon or Matsui will come back next year. Swisher isn’t going anywhere and they’ve got Melky and Garner.
As for pitching, I think they’ll be looking for #4-5 type pitcher and bullpen help.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Why not? If you were the Yankees why would you not try and get one of them for an obvious hole in LF?
stickguy
11/5/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
there was an interesting piece in the Philly papaer today about the Pils, and the future (discussing how they would need to win another WS with this core to be considered a modern “dynasty” (sound familiar?)), other wise they are just another team that ws good for a few years and had the magic season when everything went right and they won it all.
anyway, they do have a lot of budget tied up, and the local speculation is that they aren’t jacking it up a ton. Plus, they only have myers coming off the books, and that is eaten up by some hefty raises.
They also, of course, need more pitching (now that sounds familiar).
But for all the talk of the Mets are “win now”, the phils core is even more so (and yes, I know they already won once). Next year, there core offense guys will be 30 (howard), 31 (werth/utley (his hip is 41)/rollins) and 38 (Ibanez and his torn abdomen). Heck, even Ruiz is ~30.
Maybe age and injury can finally catch up to them soon?
trs86
11/5/2009-10:12am at 10:12 am (UTC -4)
Maybe but their grit will pull them through. But anyway, it will be interesting to see if the Phillies owners raise payroll with the idea that they most likely made more money the past two seasons so they can afford to or if they just pocket it and say we went to the WS. Last year they did a good job of tweaking their WS team but still made a bad decision in trusting Moyer and Lidge and refusing to spend money on decent bench players. Lucky for them they were strong and healthy enough for those issues not to bother them really at all.
mrbill
11/5/2009-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
Lucky for them they were strong and healthy enough for those issues not to bother them really at all.
Mets were as lucky as them in 2008 and what did they do with that health???
trs86
11/5/2009-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
Mr.Bill that comment was not even about the Mets but if you want to go there you can. I have said the last 2 years that they were better than us but sure if you need to take this needlessly into this debate to make you feel better go right ahead.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
As much as I would like to see the Phils hit the downhill fast, I don’t think they are going away any time soon. Their core guys are still strong and I would assume Hamels will bounce back (he’s only 25!). I think they’ll be looking for some RP help, but Mets have an uphill battle to beat the Phillie Phucs
trs86
11/5/2009-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Assuming health I too think they will be strong for at least 2-3 more years.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
Yes assuming they are all healthy.
fongy2
11/5/2009-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
The overlooked part of the yankees
much higher payroll than anyone elses
is that, its not just THAT……BUT
their ability to blow competion out
by giving 5,8and10 year deals to guys
who would only attract 3,5and7 yr deals from anyone else.
What I’m trying to say is that it’s not just the per year figure of the
deal but the length,blowing everyone
else out of the water.
And I must admit,I hate the yanks so much THAT I actually found myself
not just watching and enjoying the series,which I do anyway BUT cheering
out loud for the phillies.
Even though I could care less about any success they’ve had,or might have
had. There are a hundred reasons I’m thankful not to live in the NYC area
anymore and what will go on there for the next couple weeks is just another
one of them.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
that’s a good point.
Also, though, the Yankees don’t play by the rules. They always go over the luxury tax, which is a main reason why they’ve been to the playoffs for so many years. Yes, they’re spending hasn’t guaranteed a WS, but it’s basically guaranteed a playoff appearance.
Maybe if they played by the rules of the luxury tax, as unfair as they are w/o a real salary cap, there would be more parity in who goes to the playoffs.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Exceeding the luxury tax threshold is not against the rules. The rule is that if you exceed that level you pay a tax. They’ve broken no rules.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Exactly if you take money out early from a pension plan you pay a penalty but did not do anything illegal.
fongy2
11/5/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Exactly. If after they’d given that
obscene contract they did to Burnett he’d
had been hurt(again) and lost for the yr,
they’d have just replaced him with someone else at the trading deadline
who had tens of mils
still coming to him.No one else can do that.
You lose a guy making 15,18 mil a yr and you’re screwed.Trying to replace him with
someone you pick of waivers or a 4A type.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Is there a rule saying they can’t go over the luxury tax?
prismo
11/5/2009-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
I’m absolutely with you on this one Trs. Yankees are playing fair and square. No one complains when this stuff happens in the business world – it’s just Capitalism. But when it happens in baseball, NO FAIR NO FAIR THEY CHEAT.
It’s not like the Yankees have a monopoly, or even close to one.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Completely different situations, and a rather naive and simplistic way to view it.
MLB is a cooperative league with 30 interdependent memebers. The Yanks and their fortune don’t exist without the existence of MLB.
If Ford goes under because they make so much more than GM, GM can make more dough. If baseball teams start going under, that dramatically undermines the overall league and therefore the Yanks’ wealth as well.
It is a completely different situation. The NFL has THRIVED due to revenue sharing, a salary cap, and parity, ALL parts of successful capitalism in the right context. They understand that team sports is a vastly different entity than car or shoe or soft drink manufacturing.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Has the NFL cap prevented the Patriots and Colts from dominating and making the postseason every year?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny—in my opinion the salary cap IS the reason the Colts compete every year in their market. The cap has prevented a Yankee-like monolith from raiding them for Manning and raiding the Pats for Brady.
The NFL system has allowed cities like Indy, Tampa, Pittsbirgh, Green Bay, etc. to have their teams be on equal footing with the NY and CHI types, DUE TO the salary cap.
My feeling is that I don’t care if a team dominates, I would just very much rather that it be because they do things right, like the Steelers or Spurs or Colts or Pats, and not just because they spend the most money.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
exactly
prismo
11/5/2009-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
The MLB is doing quite well, while two leagues with salary caps (NHL and NBA) are both doing crappy. Have you seen MLB player salaries?
Success of a sport is due much more to the size of a dedicated fanbase than to whether or not there’s a salary cap.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
Wouldn’t breaking the rules be if they did not pay the penalty for going over?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
oh so sorry. it’s not breaking the rules. It still breaks the spirit of the tax, which is to deter teams from going over it. Same goes for paying over slot in the draft.
This constantly overpaying for players and draft picks drives up the price and makes it so the rest of the league can’t even participate in getting top prospects or free agents.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Was the purpose of the tax to deter teams or to get money for the rest of the league when they do it? Who has it deterred? Do we think the Mets, Yankees and Redsox would all be spending 250 million without it?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
Um, the tax was a compromise in lieu of a cap. I know the Yanks, Sox, and Angels (I think) are the only ones that have gone over. The Mets have said they won’t go over it. The Mets wouldn’t be spending $250M, but the tax has detered them from going over the limit.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
So then is it okay for just about every team other than the Mets to exceed MLB’s “recommended” draft slotting compendation in the draft?
Why aren’t we bitter about the Tigers being willing to pony up for Rick Porcello?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
yes, the Mets should be the only team not going over slot. That’s what I said.
Did I single out a team? I’m pretty sure I said overpaying in general.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
The bottom line with the Yankees is that we shouldn’t be sour grapes over the amount of money they spend because 2001-2008 has proven that other teams have every opportunity to win championships too.
The only reason the Mets are not like the Phillies, Diamondbacks, Red Sox Marlins and whomever else won during that time period is that the Mets have been awful at producing its own home grown players.
For example, the Sox have Youkilis, Lester, Pedroia, Papelbon, etc. and were able to acquire Beckett and Lowell because they produced Hanley Ramirez.
fongy2
11/5/2009-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
Agrred. AndI’ll tell ya,watching just about every out of this series and the playoffs, I’m more convinced than ever that overall,as ateam,healthy or not the team
we have right now isn’t even
close to either of the two
who took the field lastnight.
And I’m not just talking about
the overall talent level.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
I agree totally….watching the postseason has made me think we are miles away, not yards.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Agree 100%. Their seems to be an element of professionalism that the Mets lack.
And by the way, kudos to Brett Myers (who I think is an asshole for his behaviour in his personal life) for calling out Cole Hamels.
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
These guys actually believe
how good they are and don’t
quit.Plus don’t use excuses for any failures.
And I agree about Myers who
I also think is
a knucklehead.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
It is not sour grapes for me, just reality.
And I have said again and again that Omar’s top targets every year should be anyone who scouts for the Marlins. We need better scouting, better signings of youngsters, and better player development.
This should all get off to a good start in 2010, as most Met minor leaguers are apparently doing very well in their post-Bernazard therapy, and many actually report no longer suffering horrifying flashbacks of a shirtless, drooling Bernazard.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
not true. Yes other teams have had opportunities to win WS, but the Yanks have stacked their cards by spending so much money that they are basically guaranteed a playoff appearance.
The only reason the Mets aren’t like those other guys is cuz the playoffs are a crapshoot. The Mets could certainly be included in that list save for a hit here or there. that’s luck, that’s baseball.
Obviously the Mets FO sucked 5 years ago, but we still got Wright and Reyes, and could’ve had Kazmir, Bell, Lindstrom, etc. Hopefully, Omar’s farm will produce more, especially with its emphasis on the international scene.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
Just about everyone who studies the minor leagues, i.e. Keith Law, Goldstein, Jim Callis, etc., will all tell you that the Mets emphasis on the international scene is all words and no action. It’s a fraud. And it does not justify their unwillingness to cheap out on the draft.
As to your Yankees point, they didn’t make the playoffs last year. Anyway, this is the United States where those who make the most money are free to spend the most money. Mets fans are quick to criticize the Wilpons for sitting on their wallets, imagine what they would say if the Mets made the amount of money the Yankees make.
I think it is a credit to the Yankees that they are willing to invest their money back into the product. Carl Pohlad doesn’t.
And so what if the Yankees are in the playoffs every year? The other team still has a chance to beat them and has for the last 9 seasons.
Anyway, when in baseball history hasn’t there been haves and have nots? Even before free agency the Yankees dominated for all but a few years here or there from the 20s through the 60s. Eventually, the Yankees will hit a rough patch as they did in the mid 80s because they will make some mistakes.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
I guess that’s TBD. Maybe w/ Bernie out, there’ll be improvement, though he was in charge of Develpment, not scouting?
So the Yanks didn’t make it last year, I guess you disproved my point that they’ve made it to the playoffs every other year. Nice. Oh, thanks for the capitalism lesson. Glad we’re talking about baseball and not the communist, NFL, NBA or NHL. I don’t care how much the Wilpons make. Does anyone really know how much they make compared to what they spend? I just care that they put a good team out there. And I’ve never argued they go over the luxury tax.
Yes, I also give the Yanks credit for reinvesting their money. It’s so hard for them to do so. But really why wouldn’t they when they have so much going around.
Yeah, they haven’t won the WS for 9 seasons, that just proves you can’t buy a WS. So ru saying it’s fair for the Yanks to buy a playoff spot?
trs86
11/5/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
So are you saying that if the Mets spend more money than anyone in the NL they are buying a playoff spot?
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Not at all BUT it would certainly be a HUGE advantage.Look,they brought in Swisher and his contract as friggin’insurance.Not as an everyday player but insurance against Nady not being great,Matsui or Damon breaking down or their CFers being terrible.He had no place to play all spring and if Xavier hadn’t got hurt he’d have had 200or300ABs.For what hes being paid could anyone else do that??
trs86
11/5/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Yes, a lot of teams COULD they just don’t think it’s worth the risk. Are you saying that the Royals could not spend $5.3M, 10:$6.75M, 11:$9M for Swisher considering they are spending , 09:$12M, 10:$12M on Gullien?
Yes the Yankees have a huge advantage because they can spend more and their owners CHOOSE to spend more.
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Thats exactly what I’m saying.In your example,once Guillen became a bust for them,they were trapped by his contract.
Like us going into last season with Castillo.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
You’ve just complained twice that the Yankees have broken the rules by exceeding the luxury tax.
C’mon.
Anyway, salary caps don’t end haves and have nots. The NBA has a salary cap and the Lakers, Spurs and Celtics are all virtually guaranteed to be among the top 4 or 5 teams as usual.
The NFL has a salary cap and the Patriots and Colts still dominate every year.
The NHL has a salary cap and the Red Wings, and now the Pens, dominate every year.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Agreed and their has been a higher percentage of teams in the league recently to win the WS than to win championships in other sports.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
And look at the cities the champs are from—NY, LA, Bos, PHIL, Chi—except for the 2003 Marlins, all big spenders going back 15 years.
The NBA sees Miami and San Antonio win.
The NFL sees Tampa and Pitts and Indy and Baltimore win.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Wanny, your mentioning of the NFL and NBA SUPPORTS the pro-cap argument.
San Antonio and Indy are able to be consistently competitive in tiny markets BECAUSE the salary cap allows teams which do their job the best to succeed. Not to mention teams like Green Bay and Pitt in the NFL.
In the other sports were run like MLB, Duncan and/or Lebron would be on the Knicks or Nets or Lakers, and Payton might be QBing the Jets (or Dolphins!!)
If MLB had a cap, wouldn’t the A’s be in the postseason every year still? The Marlins would be the dominant franchise!
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
ESPN discussed this morning various predictions that leBron will in fact be a Laker next season.
My point is not related to which markets can succeed. My point is that the salary cap does not prevent certain teams from being haves or being have nots. At some point the Yankees will make decisions as they did in the early and mid 80s, when they spent the most money and stunk.
MLB has the Rays, Twins and Rockies all being competitive from smaller markets.
Like the Colts, if Longoria becomes Peyton Manning they will be good for as long as he is there. And they wisely ensured that he will be with a team friendly deal.
The reason the Pirates can’t succeed is that they draft poorly, sign stupid free agents and trade poorly. It has nothing to do with their location.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, the Pirates’ payroll was under 50 mil last year. This and the size of their market has nothing to do with their lack of success? And the NFL’s Steelers’ tremendous success has nothing to do with the NFL salary cap rewarding the Steelers for being so good at drafting and developing and coaching? Pittsburgh is exhibit A in favor or a sports salary cap.
Why have they let go every good player since Bonds, Bonilla and Drabek, right up through Giles, Bay and McLouth?
The Twins’ payroll was 1/3 of the Yanks. Who does a better job?
Should teams be rewarded for scouting and developing well, or just spending the most?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
You made my point yourself. Look how good the Twins did compared to the Pirates for just $12 more.
And they did it because they have a rotation of inexpensive home grown guys, two stud homegrown offensive players and traded for a brilliant closer when no one knew who he was.
Meanwhile, they’ve watched as Johan Santana, Torii Hunter and others have had to go away.
When the Pirates start developing Joe Mauers and Justin Morneaus rather than John Benbrokenarm and a bunch of other stiffs, they could compete like the Twins.
There will always be 250lb gorillas in every team sport. Always was. Always will be.
There was no free agency in the 30s and 40s. Who won all the WS?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I think we are making each others’ points.
Yours on the Twins and the Pirates is an excellent one, but to me, it is a sad shame that the Twins cannot keep their stars and actually make it to the WS, due to losing again and again to a team which does not draft and develop as well as them, but just outspends them by an insane amount.
And as for history, you are right, and I often argue that this is the way baseball has always been, and the Yanks’ dominance in the past is crazy—14 of 16 pennants from 1949–1964!
But back then it may have been even worse, as teams like the Phils and A’s often did not even try to win.
Still, while I love capitalism, believe me, I don’t think an entire sport is served by letting one team outspend everyone else by so much.
And I certainly respect your opinion to disagree, and you make some really fine points, I must say.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I think we’ve all made valid points. And I think we all agree that there is unfortunately no solution that will make MLB perfect for everyone’s taste.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
The Twins have been successful in spite of their inability to keep their star players. Imagine if their was a cap w/ more equal distribution. The twins w/ a larger payroll would be dominant. The Yankees, instead would be like the Knicks who overpay on dumb contracts. It’s about making it a level playing field.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
no, the salary cap means any crappy team can go from garbage to dominating in just a few years. All it takes is getting the right players and contracts.
In those leagues, the best FA players aren’t swallowed up by a few teams, there are more teams that can afford the Stars.
In baseball, if you signed or traded for a star player, you have to thank the Yankees for not over-paying. Where do you find that in the other leagues?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Just because there is a cap doesn’t mean each team makes the same amount of money and can afford star free agents.
Anyway, the NFL is an awful example. The cap is no barrier to signing top free agents because teams simply cut their non-guaranteed commitments in order to sign players.
The cap doesn’t enable or prevent anything in the NFL.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
You also assume that each owner is willing to spend enough to reach the salary cap. That is certainly not the case in any of the other sports.
Hell, the Isles only reached the salary floor because of potential incentives to a couple of veteran players.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
all I’m saying is change the rules to allow the small market teams to consistently suceed. Right now, they don’t have that chance.
trs86
11/5/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
You are right, the Rays and Marlins had no chance.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
CONSISTENTLY?
trs86
11/5/2009-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, if the playoffs is a crapshoot then how can we say the Yankees bought their championship? Are you saying they bought their playoff spot? So if the Mets have the highest payroll in the NL are they also buying their playoff spot?
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
I’m not sure anyones saying”they bought their championship”
Thats too simplistic. I think we
all mean,that having a 50to100%
higher payroll and not worrying about length of contract
gives them aHUGE advantage.Theres no denying that.Right?
trs86
11/5/2009-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Yup and having very good players that you can store away in the minors while you stink for a while and then bring them all in at the same time while still having top picks to trade for Lee is also an advantage. Do we get mad at other teams for going over slot or mad at the Mets for not going over slot? Neither is illegal and more teams could do it if they wanted.
I am sure the O’s could afford to spend a lot more as could the Mets, Cubs, Redsox and Dodgers.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
No, ur right. The Yanks haven’t bought anything, except a team full of marquis players.
It’s like Tex saying “Thank God for bringing me to the Yankees.” I didn’t know God printed money.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, when Tex said that I almost vomited. How revolting and obnoxious….just like Reggie White, who was “led by God” to Green Bay after they offered him tons more money.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
So again if the Yankees and Nationals had the same offer on the table who do you think Tex would have picked? Besides that does not matter. Is there anything that says they can not spend 200 million? If not then what is the problem with them doing it? You guys have a problem with the system and are blaming the Yankees for it.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Your last sentence is precisely the point.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Well of course we are blaming the Yanks, as there is a group of wealthier teams in baseball which all spend from $100–140 mil, and the Yanks lord over them at over $200 million—of course opposing the system means blaming the Yanks, as they are the only team to drastically abuse the system and skew the entire sport!
trs86
11/5/2009-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Legally. Again, what do you want them to do with the money?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
Do you think fans in Pitts and KC should accept their team being meaningless fodder every year?
Is that good for the game and the sport?
trs86
11/5/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Nope and neither should the Clippers or the Bobcats or the Lions or the Raiders and Redskins.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
And I think the Raiders and Redskins have the two highest payrolls in the NFL.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
But again Kingman that’s not the point. Are we discussing if their should be a salary cap or are we discussing if the Yankees should spend or pocket their money. These are two different discussions in my opinion.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Bcuz along w/ the Players’ Union, the Yankee ownership is the main reason there isn’t a salary cap?
trs86
11/5/2009-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
And most of the owners. There was a poll, and I am sure either of us can find it if we search, that showed that all but about 4 teams ownership groups were against a firm salary cap.
prismo
11/5/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve seen that as well. The vast majority of owners are against a salary cap, though part of it’s because so many don’t want to see a *minimum* payroll.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
couldn’t find it. Did find articles about how it was a topic of discussion at the owner’s meeting.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Yes and that was about when it came out.
Hey maybe we can have a strike, that would be much better for the game. Or perhaps we can allow steroids again which is what it took to gain interest back the last time we had a strike.
How exactly would you put a salary cap in baseball?
Would you put it on the 25 man, the 40 man, the 40 man plus AAA, the 40 man plus all the minor leagues and the fall leagues and the international scouting and the coaches at each level? Special instructors too?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
nope, just you say you have a certain amount to spend for everything. Do what you want with it.
udontmesswthejohan
11/5/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
My beef has always been, and always will be with the fans first and foremost.
The money issue is annoying, but this is America and that’s the way it goes. But the fans are a different story.
udontmesswthejohan
11/5/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
From that hack Filip Bondy who should just stick to soccer:
“Tina Lewis had been nervous all day, but really there was no need. This was a done deal, as soon as the Bleacher Creatures found our voice and Pedro Martinez lost his fastball.
We’re his daddies, in case you didn’t hear.
“And so begins another dynasty!” screamed Jon Z. “Fifteen more years of domination!”
By the time the Yankees were finished humiliating the Phillies, 7-3, Wednesday night – and by extension, embarrassing the Phils’ personal patsies, the Mets – the fans in Section 203 were already discussing ideas for a float of our own in the victory parade.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/11/05/2009-11-05_creatures.html#ixzz0W0ESGDKv
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
With all the talk about trading for Halladay yesterday, we should also consider the merits of unloading anything and everything if King Felix becomes available.
To me, it would be a no-brainer. Outside of David Wright they can have whatever they want, including Jose Reyes.
The latest from Jim Callis on Reese Havens:
Rory (NYC)
Jim, is Reese Havens still considered a legit prospect? I know he has had injury issues, but if he can make the move to second base, he would have plus power for the position. His FSL power numbers and walk rate were excellent, but was otherwise unlikely with balls put in play. Can he be a solid starter at second base in the big leagues?
Jim Callis (2:32 PM)
I like Havens more than most people do. I’m not convinced he has the footwork but second base, but it’s worth finding out. I believe in the bat and wouldn’t rule out that he could cut it at third base.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, I think the problem there would be the interest of the Redsox where they may not be involved in Halladay.
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Nice story but like most of the
farm,we shouldn’t count on anyone helping anytime soon.
Again,I think I might go with
Murphy,Tholeand Parnell @1B,C
and RP and look to improve w/
a top tier SP, LFer and explore
RF and 2B.
darknova306
11/5/2009-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Can we lay off penciling Thole in as a major leaguer until he’s actually played some AAA games? We’ve got to stop rushing these guys up, even if we are a NY team.
trs86
11/5/2009-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think hes been rushed at all.
And I’m talking as part of a 2headed Catching situation.
Look,you should
know that ABs in AAA don’t mean what they did 20yrs ago.
Half the AAA rosters are filled with AAAA
players and its used more as a
shuttle than
for development.
Thole dominated
@AA and didn’t look uncomfortable
in the bigs at all in September.It’s
funny ’cause usually I’m the guy saying”slow down with these minor leaguers.
But Thole wasn’t
like say FMart who has been very ordinary @AA…when healthy.
jaydh
11/5/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
So you dont think Murphy would have been better served by spending more time in AAA?
trs86
11/5/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm, you might want to check Fmart’s AAA numbers last year before he went down.
Also, that excuse about the AAA teams is just one made up by the Mets to cover for having a terrible AAA team.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Why would King Felix become available? Is there even a hint of a rumor of this anywhere? I would LOVE to see it!
trs86
11/5/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
There was during the season last year.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, but just Heyman/Olney nonsense, or something seemingly for real?
His year last year, his age, etc, make trading seem completely ridiculous, especially when considering the Mariners’ improvement last year.
They paid Ichiro, I cannot imagine they will not pay King Felix. They have had pitching phenoms for over a decade, Meche and Pineiro being among them, and King Felix is the first one to really pan out.
fongy2
11/5/2009-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Who knows? But I would guess it’s worth discussing because it certainly seemed the rumor had legs last year.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
This is the rumor story:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/marinersblog/2009591133_mariners_turned_down_three-way.html
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks very much for posting this.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
All the names and the combination of talent and upside are jaw-dropping.
It’s these kind of rumored negotiations that I find fascinating. On the rare occasion they actually happen, even more so.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Not so sure about that.
Obviously you make the call.But even if you were the M’s and even thought about it,any idea what it would cost?
FMart,Meijas,Holt,Davis,plus,plus…
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
I heard that Felix was very close to being traded. So I don’t see why not, but I bet it’ll cost a lot more to get him than to get Halladay
jaydh
11/5/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
It is rumored that the cards offered Holliday 16mil per/6yr deal? Would you want holliday on your roster at age 36 making $16mil? I really think it would be a mistake to sign holliday for that long. His contract would take up most of our budget if he wanted more than 16mil per and we have many holes to fill. Will Omar be allowed to spend over budget considering this could be the last straw for him? Or will Omar empty the farm, like he did in montreal?
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
We’re not getting Holliday.
Unless we offered him more yrs and cash,theres no chance.
Really,if given the same offer would you choose the Mets over the Cardinals?
jaydh
11/5/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
My point was that we really shouldnt go after Holliday or Bay…. Omar is going to have to get creative to keep his job.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
And then some.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously we would have to overpay. Most likely we would have to overpay Lackey as well.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
That’s the question do we want either Holliday or Lackey at age 35-36 making 16+ a year?
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think I’d go beyond 4yrs/60mil for Lackey.
Plus,I’d pretty much forget about Holliday
now and focus elsewhere.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
tops would be 4/72. Would you really be okay w/ not getting a #2 if the difference was $16M or $18M?
trs86
11/5/2009-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Tops would be 4/80 would you really let getting a #2 get away for the difference in 18-20M? Tops would be 4/100 would you really let a #2 get away for the difference in 20-25 million?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
yes. there’s a diff btw paying what someone is worth and overpaying.
based on recent contracts, a #2 isn’t worth $20-25M. They are however, worth $16-$18M.
I’m pretty sure, most of us on here weren’t mad at Omar for not over-paying for Lowe since he wasn’t worth what he was asking for.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Based on recent contracts #5′s are worth 12 million.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
what’s ur point?
trs86
11/5/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
So it was OK to give Perez 3/36 because that is what #5′s pay? Or we should give Garland 3/36 if we need one?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
BS, Ollie wasn’t signed to be a #5, Livan was.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
See I think the opposite. I think they can go with either Lackey OR Holliday. As A1 or A2. So determine which one you want and make your best offer. If that does not get it then off to the other.
Say it’s Lackey then I am signing someone like Brad Thompson, Gonzalez and Byrd. If it’s Holliday then I am signing guys like Wolf AND another SP and a BP guy.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah,Bring in Marlon Byrd,Brad Thompson and Randy Wolf and with good luck and health
we’re looking
at 3rd or 4th place.
But atleast Omar and Jerry would be looking for new jobs.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Can you read?
It would be something like
Lackey, Byrd, Thompson, Gonzalez.
Or
Holliday, Wolf, 2nd mid-rotation guy, Lyon
What exactly are you saying they should do?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
He wants the Mets to unfairly and illegally buy everyone just like the Yankees except the Yankees shouldn’t be allowed to.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, me too.
But it’s interesting. You do bring up a good point how we seem to want it all.
We are all quick to say this guy sucks or this guy stinks or you can’t win with that roll player yet we don’t want a team full of stars.
Do I know that having Lackey, Thompson, Byrd and Gonzalez would be enough? No. Do I think it goes a long way? It has to. It gives us the #2 we are looking for, a real LF that is for sure not a slob or a star, a former closer to be a LH setup man and a solid guy that can pitch out of the pen or start for cheap.
Same thing with Holliday. A real bat in the order, 2 solid pitchers to take 2 question marks out of the rotation and a bullpen guy.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
We’d better stop agreeing before bizzaro trdmb goes kaplooey.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Eh, we agree on a LOT of things but what fun is that to discuss?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
that’s actually pretty good. In 5 years, that $16M salary will be cheap, and for a top tier player, it could be much more.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
I’m pretty surprised that Cards offered him such a a big contract and was rejected. Probably it was Boras who rejected it, but seems like more than fair deal for Holliday. I seriously don’t think he’ll get that type of offer this offseason. Maybe from the Yanks…
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Those who want a salary cap in MLB should realize just how bad the Mets would be if they were forced to rely on their minor league system.
jaydh
11/5/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
I’m against a cap, but if they did institute one, I doubt it would be the following season. It would probably be a few yrs down the road so that teams could prepare.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/5/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
It’s sad, but that may be true. Why can’t the Mets develop good prospects? Who have they developed recently outside of Wright and Reyes?
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
Fmart!
trs86
11/5/2009-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I would still count Pelfrey for now. Maybe not at the end of next year…
trs86
11/5/2009-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Or I guess it would force them to develop one.
But also it’s much more difficult for baseball to have a salary cap. The NFL and NBA don’t have real minor leagues and their drafts are not 1,000 rounds long.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Good point….but they might put a tremendously increased amount of resources into it were they not able to trade for or sign players like Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner, Johan, KRod, etc every year.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Kong:
I respect our disagreement on this issue. But this post brings up another point as discussed below.
Even if the Mets put more of an emphasis on their minor league development… the Yankees would be able to put that much more.
In the end, there is no one size fits all approach to developing a major league team. The Yankees do it their way and the Twins and A’s have to do it their ways. The Yankees will always have the most resources.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Totally agree, and respect your view as always.
But while I do feel that the system you describe above would indeed still give the Yanks infinite chances to use their larger resources, I would ideally like to see the teams who draft/trade/develop the best win.
So, even if the Yanks still had the advantage in scouting, international development, etc, to me it would be preferable to force them to win that way than by just signing everyone else’s stars.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
That’s certainly a fair and understandable point of view.
We should lock you in a room with MLBPA and Bud Selig for the next round of negotiations!
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
LOL! What a fun room to be in THAT would be!
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
Just promise that you would refer to Selig as Grand Master B.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
Also, the Yankees financial power would benefit them even in a salary capped universe unless the league somehow prevented them for investing their money in scouting and international development.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah that is what I mentioned above. Baseball would be VERY difficult to have a hard salary cap in. You would have to do it for the entire organization from every single detail.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
I haven’t thought this through to the end so it may have a tragic flaw, but what I’m in favor of is a hard cap on amateur signings. A true, firm slotting system without loopholes like claiming citizenship in Andorra, and a worthwhile penalty attached to it (such as voiding the pick and the player being re-entered into the slotted system).
This current bullcrap with the “recommended” slotting system that no one adheres to (except the Mets) puts teams in a position of passing on talent or risking 10s of millions of dollars on players that may never even make it to the majors.
prismo
11/5/2009-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Definitely can agree with this!
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, but at least the Wilpons follow the rules $
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
And how often do we implore them not to? And how often do we attribute their compliance with these rules merely to their own pennysaving endeavours rather than to the spirit of the rule?
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
I always attribute it to their adherence to the spirit of the rule, I’ve written long diatribes about it here.
I feel I’m in the minority on that point, so I guess technically that suggests I’m not a kool-aid drinker?
trs86
11/5/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
No I think that is true, the Mets could go over the luxury tax or pay over slot if they wanted to but chose not to and my hope is that it’s due to the spirit of the rule. However, the question remains, where is that extra money going?
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
I think if one adheres to the spirit of the rule one therefore does not consider it “extra” money.
It’s all simply lumped in the budget. Do they spend their budget wisely? I think by most standards the answer to that is “no.” Would it become “yes” if they stopped adhering to the spirit? It seems to be almost a moral dilemma.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
LOL,
It seems as though you are upset with the Mets for following the rules and angry with the Yankees for not.
I recall many times in many post you have said that the Mets should not worry about the luxury tax and go the extra mile for a “real” team. But now that the Yankees do that you say they should not.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
True, they have done it with the luxury tax and the slotting system.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely true, but come on, signing CC AND Tex AND Burnett in one offseason?
That a LOT of money and years of drafting and development to replace a few negotiating sessions right there.
Sure, they would still have the advantages they have had dating back to when they bought Babe Ruth from the Red Sox, but being able to sign CC and Tex the same year is just putting one team WAY too far ahead of everyone else, in my opinion.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
425 Million dollars.
And again,how many other teams were going
to give CC 7yrs,Tex 8
and AJ 5 yrs??
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree that what the Yanks did this past offseason was ridiculous.
I just don’t see a way around having them exert their financial might and I’m not so sure it would be fair to do so anyway.
If I’m the Yankees and I’m prevented from using my own money then I’m not sharing a penny of revenue with anyone else and I want the lion’s share of TV revenues and ticket sales generated by my team’s involvement in games.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree.
Not saying their wrong
just sayin’ and too bad the media doesn’t
talk about it more, they
don’t play
by the same rules.
prismo
11/5/2009-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
They do play by the same rules, they just exploit it better, haha.
It’s not fair what the Yankees do, but as long as they follow the rules (which they do), you can’t really complain about it.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
I thought it was that they (the Yankees) did play by the same rules, they just have more resources than everybody else.
Or are you saying the media doesn’t play by the same rules?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
I understand fully, and I have to leave this debate, but my last thought is that the NFL has benefitted hugely from this system.
Yes, it has allowed owners such a the Bidwills in AZ to pocket zillions while their team is horrid for 50 years, but it also helps the Pitts and GBs win, it also raises the level of parity, and hence interest, and hence ratings, and hence dollars for everyone.
trs86
11/5/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Russia benefited for a long time from communism too. LOL. No I am not comparing the NFL’s salary cap to communism but…
Don’t you also think that one of the things that has helped Pitt and GB to win is that they always put all their resources into those teams (even the community by selling out every game and buying tons of merchandise. Not to mention they are very well ran organizations.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
No, Russia most certainly did not benefit from Communism, and tens of millions died from famine, war, and random brutality. The NFL’s salary cap has helped make it the US’ most popular sport, made fortunes for just about all of its owners and continues to, and has created a very competitive league where small market teams and surprise teams compete every year.
As for GB and Pitt, good point, but it is the sharing of national TV revenue which makes the NFL so evenly matched. And yes, I know there is no such revenue stream in baseball to compare the NFLs’ to. It’s a good point though.
prismo
11/5/2009-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, I’d rather not have internet quarrels with you – at least not daily. We’re both Mets fans, I don’t see why we can’t get along. I have no beef with you.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
Sounds good to me, especially as the WS is over.
And you will then like my strong agreement with your point right below….
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Incidentally, what really annoyed me was the other day, when you called me some sort of ignoramus for saying the Yanks did not play hard and well, when I never said anything remotely like that, and in fact have said the opposite this postseason. Just in case you were wondering.
prismo
11/5/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
Well I’m sorry if I offended you. If it makes you feel any better, I’m back on board with fully hating the Yankees.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sorry too, and I hope the Phils finish last next year dammit!
prismo
11/5/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
What I wouldn’t mind seeing is stricter luxury tax rules. An escalating system that starts lower (maybe at $100 mil) and continues to increase (in %) all the way up to $200 mil. Any team that wants a share of this must agree to a certain minimum payroll. If the Pirates and Marlins want to keep their extremely low payrolls, they can, but they won’t get any of the luxury tax money.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Now THAT is a good idea.
Prevent people like the NFL’s Bidwills from pocketing the revenue sharing dough, as apparently KC has been doing in MLB.
If the Yanks are forced to give their rightfully made money to Pitts and Fla and KC, yes, Pitts and Fla and KC should be forced to spend it on players, as that is the entire point of revenue sharing.
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
This works in the NFL only
because the contracts aren’t
guaranteed…
Thank God.
It’s also another reason
why there aren’t
many “dogs” in
the NFL.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
This is why the NFL is not a good comparison point.
The salary cap prevents nothing. Players are cut so the Redskins can sign the big free agent very year or so Al Davis can trade for another expensive over the hill vet.
prismo
11/5/2009-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
Haha let the Skins sign all the big free agents, they still suck!
trs86
11/5/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
So if that happen wouldn’t the Yankees just then spend more than anyone on the draft, international signings, scouts, coaches, and would that really keep the Yankees from breaking it? You think they still would not have been able to get the guys they did? Not unless a team like the Brewers were going to vastly overpay.
prismo
11/5/2009-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
The Yankees would still probably vastly outspend everyone, but it wouldn’t be quite as crazy as it is now…and the lower tier teams would be better than they are. Also, in regards to the draft – I’m with Grave that a strict system should be implemented so the rich teams can’t dominate the draft with overslotting and whatnot.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
if their was a cap on what a system could spend for the entire system, wouldn’t that prevent what ur talking about?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
Man, we’re really in a Socialism mood today…
Even so it probably wouldn’t. A team could then decide to spend big money on the top international guys, reduce its number of affiliated minor league teams (resulting in many jobs being lost by not only kids chasing a dream but also team, stadium and other local economy employees), sign only those draft picks they like most and trim all of the fat from their system.
Anyway, the Yankees would still be able to build NY Yankees Hospital in Santo Domingo, the Church of George in Caracas, etc. and use their money to influence the top players in other ways.
Money will always be an advantage.
The other result from all of this is that the players — the talent, the product, etc. — would earn less money. And I’m not talking about AJ Burnett. I’m talking about the Jenrry Mejias who might be able to use his bonus money to move his family out of squalor even if he never makes it to the majors. He’ll always have that bonus check.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
I am NEVER in a socialism mood, but I am ALWAYS in an improve capitalism and democracy mode.
trs86
11/5/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
How exactly can regulation improve capitalism? Giving everyone a chance but then having someone else say how much of a chance they get?
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know, maybe we should ask Bernie Madoff’s investors, or Enron’s employees.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
kind of.
If ur kids are eating a pizza, do you not regulate how much one can have so that the other can have some, too. Otherwise, one of them would be greedy and eat all the pizza themselves, leaving ur other kid hungry.
So now you have to spend more money to feed the hungry child and the greedy child is eating you out of house and home.
If you would’ve regulated how much they can eat, they both would’ve been happy and fed, and you wouldn’t be bankrupt.
Great, now I want pizza.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
Always with the pie-shaped things. Mmm, pie.
trs86
11/5/2009-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
And both been hungry.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Sooooooo, your point is, let the bully greedy kid have his way and be overfed and the other kid can go hungry, and that’s the ideal, natural, capitalist American Way?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
dude, there’s enough pizza to go around. didn’t you learn to share?
trs86
11/5/2009-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
Yes!
And then the other kid will be forced to rely on other resources.
No I am saying I should ask all of the people on this board how much they make and then have them send in money so I can send it back out and make sure we all have the same amount. Otherwise one commenter could have an unfair advantage. Perhaps someone on here has a better education as well. Thus he must now send much of his intelligence to the board where in turn I will send them back ignorance and we can all be equal.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
Right, cuz that’s what we’re talking about.
way to jump off the deep end.
ur greedy kid can eat 4 slices, but is it too much to ask to leave 2 for the other kid?
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
How can regulation improve capitalism? You are a history teacher?
Workplace safety regulation? Child labor laws? Product safety laws? Anti-political corruption laws? Anti-war profiteering laws? Regulating airlines so they don’t become totally inefficient and obnoxious and lose so much money we have to bail them out?
Have you heard about the outrageous Wall Street scams which have had some effect on the economy recently? Should we regulate Wall Street or let them rob every stupid person out of their last cent and destroy the economy for everyone?
Don’t delete this, as you asked the rather ridiculous question.
trs86
11/5/2009-2:12pm at 2:12 pm (UTC -4)
Nope I did not ask a ridiculous question.
Workplace safety regulations, Child labor laws, product safety laws….. all were brought on using socialist ideas by the way. Not saying that is bad. Communism and Socialism both have their advantages. Most during the Red Scare and a lot of blood was shed by union gangsters as well as greedy capitalist to agree on a less capitalistic society.
However none of them improved capitalism they may have for sure improved the country but not capitalism.
And your Wall Street scams would not have had anywhere near the same effect if people were smart enough to understand that nothing is free and if it’s too good to be true it is. Also, if not for the government involvement the bank situation could not have been as bad. Banks like making money, why would they sign on to a bunch of risky loans if they knew people would most likely not pay them back? Why, because the government gave them all kinds of kick backs if they made those loans and told them they would be there to save them.
Don’t get me started. LOL.
Kingman 26
11/5/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
We really need to avoid discussing politics!
LOL!
You are surely right about Wall Street greed, but shouldn’t the govt help the morons to keep their money from the predators?
Really gotta go, nice debates today, talk to you soon!
trs86
11/5/2009-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah you too. But no I don’t think the government should ever help the morons. Let them learn to help themselves.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
“However none of them improved capitalism they may have for sure improved the country but not capitalism.”
And what’s wrong with improving the country?
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
“But no I don’t think the government should ever help the morons. Let them learn to help themselves.”
I’m sure all those morons that lost most of their 401K’s agree w/ you.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Nothing is wrong with improving the country but I’m not certain that feeding children is analogous to ensuring competitive balance in professional sports.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
And I’m not sure that implementing a salary cap is analogous to socialism.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
I didn’t say it was. I said putting a cap on the entire organization’s spending was Socialist on contrary to competition and free enterprise.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Um, you should look up the definition of socialism.
And how would a cap on the entire system restrict free enterprise or competition?
Many teams wouldn’t spend up to the cap, while others would. They’re still competing against eachother for certain players.
Anyway, I thought it might be a solution to the idea that a salary cap would allow teams to outspend in the development system.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
Because a free enterprise is permitted to invest its money to its own benefit. Has anyone told the Los Angeles Kings that they are not permitted to employ more scouts than the New York Islanders?
And I’m not sure what type of economy seeks to prevent large companies or corporations from redistributing their wealth to employees… and as a result to local economies.
A cap on the spending of an entire system would seem to punish the players and employees to the teams’ benefit.
And what other sports league does such a thing? NHL team salary caps don’t even apply to players in the minors.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
Assuming, of course, that what they spend their money on is legal…
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
And then let’s say a bad team keeps drafting at the top of the draft and having to pay its top draft picks more money than other draft picks. Will there come a time when the Pirates won’t even be able to sign their draft picks because there is minor league salary cap too?
And they won’t be able to improve their team by singing international free agents?
All this “system-wide” cap will do is reduce the salaries the vast majority of the young players receive.
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not sure I agree w/ ur analysis. You may be right, IDK.
If a system wide cap isn’t the answer, I’m sure there are ways to implement a salary cap that would allow small market teams to compete with large market teams on a consistent basis.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-4:36pm at 4:36 pm (UTC -4)
A real draft slotting system might be a start. The MLBPA will never agree.
But it would prevent Rick Porcello from being drafted at the end of the first round by the Tigers instead of going to Pittsburgh.
Grave’s requirement that international players be subjected to the draft would also seem to work.
I’m not sure what the potential ramifications are of these things but I think they would accomplish something closer to what you want to see.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
And when the majority of these young players are all earning less and about equal money, they might be swayed to go to the Yankees because they grew up in a nice little house built by Yankees charity money.
trs86
11/5/2009-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Or they would rather play for the Yankees because they are the Yankees as unfortunate as that may be.
trs86
11/5/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
Who exactly is going to govern and watch over a cap on an ENTIRE system from international scouting to Arizonal Fall Leagues to Spring Training to countless minor league teams, scouts and coaches?
The same body that watched over steroids?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
or the same people who watch over the illegal bonus money being provided to the agents and kids in Latin America.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
I was referring simply to the signing of amateur players, but as I said there may be a tragic flaw as I hadn’t followed it all the way through. I don’t see the AFL and Spring Training as relevant however.
The Yankees would still have an advantage because they would be able to scout the LOOGY in Ghana whereas the Pirates would be reduced to signing winners of Indian Cricket reality shows. But at least the Pirates would be able to put a greater percentage of their money into major league talent because they wouldn’t be spending $10 mil on a pitcher fresh from the college WS.
trs86
11/5/2009-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree but there are advantages in even having the nicest ST facility right?
trs86
11/5/2009-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Or how about things like private jets and individual rooms etc.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps, but I doubt a kid is going to make his choice on who to sign with as an amateur based on whether a ST clubhouse has leather couches and 50″ plasmas or not.
Anyway that kid won’t have a choice under my system, either he signs with the team “what drafted him” or he sits out and goes back into the draft next year.
The point of the draft picks starting with the team with the worst record is so said team can improve. If said team is compromised due to paying the player they judge as best for them an absurd bonus, or simply passes on said player because their bonus request is untenable, how do they improve? This is what my strict amateur cap/slot system is dealing with, not leather couches in Kissimmee.
Yes the Yankees with their largest of all resources would still be able to find and draft the best “later round” talent because they would be best able to find and scout it, but at least the Pirate-esque teams would be able to succeed in the earlier rounds better than they can now.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
IMO the majority (not all, you touched on the key point I think when you discussed the difficulties of international regulation) of things you’re bringing up are irrelevant because they are all things that impact the player AFTER he’s in an organization.
I’m talking about cost controls on the signing of AMATEUR players. Once they become either minor league or major league free agents, THEN the things you’re mentioning such as private jets and luxurious clubhouses come into play. Not when they’re being drafted.
trs86
11/5/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I got you Grave but my original comment was not for you but for the topic of a firm salary cap.
This is the comment I was responding to:
“if their was a cap on what a system could spend for the entire system, wouldn’t that prevent what ur talking about?”
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
OK.
I respectfully request we need a “quote” feature or better nesting.
If I had known you were responding to someone who used the phrase “what ur talking about” I would’ve known it wasn’t me.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Sign Kenny Powers!
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Sign Kenny from South Park! He’s always wearing a winter coat so clearly he’s prepared to play baseball in November.
prismo
11/5/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, but he’s sustained more injures over the years than the Mets can even fathom!
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Yes in that way he’d make the perfect Met. Let’s hope the Mets are as resilient as Kenny. He comes back from the dead every week!
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
I’m down wit dat!
The kid plays hurt,thats for sure.
b/t/w,
I was only being sarcastic when I posted that atleast we play by the rules but I guess it past right by TRS since hes apparently in full”Attack if you disagree with me”mode.
fongy2
11/5/2009-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously should have read “passed right by”
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
“If at first you don’t succeed, then maybe you just suck!”
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
“I play a real sport…Not try to be the best at exercisin’”
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
“Why give 100% when 35% can still get you paid and laid?”
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
Or perhaps the best KP quote, since we’re talking about luxury taxes and soft caps, is this one:
“Losers are just morons who don’t have the balls to cheat.”
trs86
11/5/2009-1:20pm at 1:20 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, I am in full attack mode by saying that you want it both ways. The fact that you call out the Wilpons for not going the extra mile and think it’s unfair that the Yankees do it.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Just to break things up a bit… this selfish prick should have scholarship revoked or he should kicked off the team:
Jordan’s son wears NikeComment Email Print Share Associated Press
ORLANDO, Fla. — A fight over the shoes Michael Jordan’s son will wear at the University of Central Florida has cost the school any future sponsorship with adidas.
“The University of Central Florida has chosen not to deliver on their contractual commitment to adidas,” adidas spokeswoman Andrea Corso wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press. “As a result we have chosen not to continue our relationship with them moving forward.”
Freshman guard Marcus Jordan wore a pair of white Air Jordans during UCF’s 84-65 win in an exhibition game against Saint Leo on Wednesday night, the Orlando Sentinel reported on its Web site. Jordan has said he will only wear his father’s Nike Air Jordan shoes because they hold special meaning to his family.
UCF is in the final year of a five-year contract with adidas that requires coaches and athletes to use the company’s apparel and equipment.
“We are disappointed to learn that adidas has chosen to discontinue its relationship with UCF Athletics,” the school said in a statement Wednesday night released by spokesman Joe Hornstein. “Once we receive official notice we will be able to further respond.”
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
Ya gotta luv da yuts!
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
I just wonder why this never came up beforehand, and why did he choose to attend a school that was contracturally obligated with another company? There seems to have been a lot of arrogance or blissful ignorance involved in his college choice.
I think though the outcome of this, rather than a just punishment for the parties who’ve done wrong, will be that either Nike or Michael Jordan himself simply buys UCF. And if that happens, at least in the short term, UCF will have won.
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
Ya gotta love college sports.
Its funny ’cause down
here in Penn State land’everyone and I mean everyone feels
they all cheat.
Except for Joe Pa and
Penn State that is.
prismo
11/5/2009-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t you dis PSU! I’m an Alum, remember!
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
Srry dude,I did forget.
I have to root
for them
undercover because
my wife
is a Temple
grad who
was in the band
and hates Penn State.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
I hope so. Because they, and the kids who rely on the programs/facilities/scholarships supported by the revenue got screwed by the rich spoiled kid.
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
yeah, real life got in the way
of idealism.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
or vice versa.
fongy2
11/5/2009-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
Nice one above Heb, on that last KP
quote. Even though I’ve watched them
all on DVD,like 3 times, THAT one made
me laugh out loud.
You fellas have a nice day
AND
Let’s Go Mets!………Or something.
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-5:32pm at 5:32 pm (UTC -4)
The Tale of Two NHLs (a salary cap league):
http://nhl.fanhouse.com/2009/11/05/blue-jackets-struggles-illustrate-nhls-tale-of-two-leagues/
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-5:48pm at 5:48 pm (UTC -4)
Very interesting article. Perhaps my reading comprehension is poor but did they even guess at what might be the cause of the economic problems? Other than mentioning “the team’s economic model has serious disadvantages” I missed it.
I appreciated how they described the new arena and how it has revitalized the area, and how they compared it to Baltimore’s Camden Yards area with it’s stadium revitalization. Plus I was shocked when I looked it up and found that Columbus is more populous than Baltimore (and Washington DC, Boston, Milwaukee and Seattle). That dispelled my initial reaction which was “well of course they’re failing, Columbus is not a ‘major league’ city.” I visited there for about an hour in 1993 and had a nice fried bologna sandwich with a few beers in a fine German-style beer garden but that’s the extent of my first hand Columbus knowledge.
Is it simply a matter of baseball sells in Baltimore better than hockey sells in Columbus?
wannybackstra
11/5/2009-6:38pm at 6:38 pm (UTC -4)
Nothing wrong with your reading comprehension. I’m making an inference based on the quote from the Columbus ownership (or whoever was speaking on their behalf) that the private funding of the arena is the disadvantage they are speaking of. But as I said, that’s just my own inference.
A possibility not discussed in the article is TV revenue. Small market NHL teams likely get very little. And God knows the national coverage from Versus probably doesn’t generate a whole lot. I do not know how TV revenues are divided in the NHL but I suspect it’s not in the same manner as in the NFL.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-6:44pm at 6:44 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent point about Versus. As a DirecTV subscriber, I no longer have Versus (they are apparently owned by a cable company which is in a dispute with DirecTV over rights fees).
I must add, I am not really a hockey fan, so the fact that I don’t have Versus anymore doesn’t distress me much, right now. But if I don’t get it back before next summer’s Tour de France, I’ll be livid. And I am not making a joke.
Also, on the Yankee payroll topic I just was lead to this article through Ted Berg’s “Tedquarters” site:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/05/the-yankees-payroll/
CaseStreet
11/5/2009-8:01pm at 8:01 pm (UTC -4)
thanks Grave. Excellent article.
GravediggerHebner
11/5/2009-8:15pm at 8:15 pm (UTC -4)
No prob. Sorry I didn’t find it when the topic was a little more prominent here.