Nov 18
Major League Baseball’s Ryan Seacrest, Jon Heyman, discusses among other things the Roy Halladay situation.
The Mets are always a bridesmaid when it comes to these reports. Heyman doesn’t stray far from the norm, “Mets: They’ve said they’ll look into. But eventually, the likelihood is that they won’t want to dedicate $46 million to two pitchers when they have other holes to fill (left field, catcher, bullpen, possibly second base).”
MLBTradeRumors
Video: A Look Back At The Two... { Over at Fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/matt-harvey-overwhelming/ 'Matt... } – Jun 19, 11:15 AM
Video: A Look Back At The Two... { Yes } – Jun 19, 11:14 AM
Video: A Look Back At The Two... { So now 2 of every... } – Jun 19, 11:13 AMVideo: A Look Back At The Two... { Love it. Was this really... } – Jun 19, 11:12 AMTwitter Tweet: Mets Trade Collin McHugh For... { Meh. Garbage for garbage... } – Jun 19, 11:10 AM
If lightning were to strike twice for the Mets and we were to see Seaver-Koosman reincarnated, the Mets would have very little to upgrade Left Field, First Base, Catcher or in the Bullpen, but they would have the nastiest pair of aces on the planet.
49 comments
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Yes.
Lackey is very good but Halladay is one of the best in the game.
If it is able to be done, do it. And do it now.
njstuckintx
11/18/2009-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
This is a definite Yes.
Yes, the amount of resources would limit us elsewhere, but doing a TRS move and getting overbay, 1B would be covered, and if you don’t want to go overbay, Murphy passing the torch to Ike is fine with me. I think that most would be ok with Pagan in LF if Halladay was pitcher 1A for the Mets.
Only other addition for a minimal upgrade would be a better option at 2nd and a catcher. Any upgrade you could do in LF or 1B (plus bench) would be gravy.
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
Since Doc shows no signs of breaking down and is a big guy, I’m not too worried about a 5 yr deal. You’d still have approx. $7-$9M left to fix something else.
Any improvements in LF or 1B would have to be on a 1yr deal cuz of $4M increase to Wright and whatever Reyes gets when extended.
If Omar is able to get rid of Castillo w/o paying we can get Polanco and Barajas for the same amount ($6M).
Ideally, guys like Pagan, F-Mart, Carter, Murphy, Niese, Thole (maybe Davis) will be able to reduce team salary.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
And yes, he is older, and yes he is expensive, and yes he would hurt the farm, but go back and take a look at what was around Seaver/Koosman and Schilling/Johnson and Koufax/Drysdale’s title teams….not a perfect comparison, but if we play solid fundamental ball, if Reyes/Wright/Beltran come back healthy and productive, and if we can improve the pen a little, we could be surprisingly good in 2010, and who knows how good in 2011 with a Johan/Roy 1-2 punch.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll type it anyway but I think it’s obvious to all of us, from the most casual to the most diehard fan, that Halladay is the best man for the job. In a vacuum.
But we don’t operate in a vacuum. Your question about the amount of money necessary to pay both Santana what his contract obligates he receive and what Halladay would fairly request in an extension and how that fits into constructing the rest of a roster cannot be ignored.
Sure it would be nice if the Mets didn’t have a budget, or respect for the luxury tax, but they do and they do. The rest of the guys currently under contract aren’t getting cheaper. And there are still other holes to fill as you point out.
The Mets would need to fill some spots on their roster with the same cheap controllable talent that they’d be sending to Toronto in the trade.
I think the Mets acquiring Halladay is not an impossibility, but I think there are only 3 possible scenarios under which it could happen:
1 – Acquire him knowing that you are going to let him go via free agency after 2010, thus not spending the money on his well deserved huge extension;
2 – Ownership casting aside it’s budget and luxury tax respect;
3 – The team making at least one if not more other trades in which they send away at least one if not more of their highest paid players. IOW, Halladay is acquired and signed to an extension, but someone from among the group of Johan Santana, Carlos Beltran, KRod, Oliver Perez, David Wright or Jose Reyes would be gone, with Santana or Beltran being the most likely as they are the ones who provide the greatest financial relief. Since trading Santana makes little sense because then acquiring Halladay becomes a lateral move, say goodbye to Beltran.
wannybackstra
11/18/2009-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
You say goodbye, I say hello.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
I love that song!
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
hello, hello
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know why Grave says goodbye to more Beltran, I say hello…
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see trading Santana or Beltran being necessary.
Actually, I see K-Rod being moved or at least not picking up his 17.5M option for 2012.
The key is having prospects ready to fill in the other positions.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
And a 1-2 of Johan and Roy allows guys like Pelf and Maine to be 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 3, it clearly improves the pen and keeps it rested as Roy will go 7 every time out, and it means we will win many more games when we score 3 or 4 runs—all of which means that many of our other holes become instantly less deep.
And if the big three are healthy and productive, we could live with the production of a Cameron or a Hart or maybe even a Pagan in LF, as well as maybe Murph at first, as we will be capable of winning most of Roy’s games by scoring 3 or 4 instead of 5+ runs.
fongy2
11/18/2009-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
If with the yanks,Sox&Rays
all clearly better than the
Jays already in that Division,
they traded him to the yanks or
Sox, Toronto should just fold up shop.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
Well, they should still be able to finish ahead of the Orioles….
fongy2
11/18/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Not even sure about that.The O’s have some good young players and more coming.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
True, but I have tremendous faith in Peter Angelos’ unlimited ability to continue destroying what was once one of baseball’s very best franchises.
They never should have fired Davey, and allowing the entire organization to become simply a vessel for Ripken to break a record in his monumentally selfish manner ruined the team.
fongy2
11/18/2009-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. We were also a little quick on the trigger with Davey.
stickguy
11/18/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
trading K Rod would be a great way to save money, but no one is going to take him at that price, after his poor last season. I belive there are also a lot of closers available this year.
plus, the 17.5 million for 2012 is not a team option, it is a vesting option (based on games finished in 2010 and 2011). Basically if he doesn’t get hurt, the mets will be on the hook for that too.
I can’t even imagine the 2012 payroll if they get doc too. $46 for 2 Sps, 17.5 for K Rod, 15 for DW, plus a big extension if Reyes is still here (another 15?). At least Beltran should be gone.
Those 5 guys alone will be getting ~95 million.
fongy2
11/18/2009-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
Trade KRod and
sign Kenny Powers on the cheap!
BullPen fixed!
stickguy
11/18/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
Well, if it is that easy, trade Castillo too!
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
But if we win the WS in 2011, we will be able to afford it in 2010….
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
tnx, didn’t notice that it was vesting. yikes!
Mets better start winning if they want to keep their stars.
stickguy
11/18/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
If it was just the money, you could roll the dice and hope. But, if it ends up being the pair of aces (hopefully they both stay healthy, no guarantee for SPs in their 30s), a couple of “coire” guys, and a bunch of dreck to make payroll, I still don’t expect them to run off a string of WS titles.
The bigger issue is the potential of having to totally gut the farm too (as in, more than they gave for Johan).
Only the yankees really have the budget to go top of the market for 2 SPs, and even they are spending close to that much money.
Top end pitching is really expensive on the open market, so teams absolutely have to develop some of their own to be real contenders.
The team, IMO, should spread out the available talent and $$ to cover even more holes. This is also a good year to try and fill a lot of gaps via FA, while keeping the topo of the farm intact for now.
There are enough viable options/plans that don’t require trading all the decent prospects, or committing that much $$ to one guy, that it doesn’t make sense to put everything into the halladay basket.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Again, go back and check out the supporting cast of the 60s Dodger title teams, the 69 Mets, and the 2001 DBacks….
stickguy
11/18/2009-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
the 60s was a whole different era and way the game was played.
and if it was that easy, why didn’t they win every year when they had the big 2? Seaver and Koos played on a lot more bad teams than good ones.
The D backs in some sense were a fluke, just like every year it seems some team just comes together and has the magic carpet ride. 2008 rays, etc. The D Backs also had some big years by other guys, it wasn’t 2 SPs and a bunch of AAA retreads.
A fair point may be that if you get into a short playoff series, 2 SPs can dominate? Yeah, sometiems that happens, but you still have to get there.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
All very good points…but as we have two WS wins in 48 years and none in 23 years, I think even just one might be nice.
2011 will be the Mets’ 50th year and the 25th anniversary of 1986.
Let’s get Roy, improve more in the next year, and win it all in 2011.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that we probably shouldn’t compare teams from prior to free agency, and I would add we probably shouldn’t compare teams prior to a 30 team league due to the dilution of talent.
I wouldn’t say the DBacks were a fluke but I would add that after they won the series, they won 98 games the next year and lost in the NLDS which is a 2 year span I think most Met fans would happily accept.
But would we also accept the subsequent years in which they won 84, 51, 77, 76, 90 (lost NLCS), 82 and 70 games with one post season appearance as noted.
Whether A led to B I can’t say for sure but I think if their title is worth noting, so is what happened after.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
Well, Schilling won 22 in 2001 and 23 in 2002, was hurt and won 8 in 2003 and then was gone. So if anything, this supports the 2-ace theory. Look at their decline immediately after Schilling ceased to be a dominant factor for them.
And perhaps talent dilution might increase the potential dominance of a 2-ace rotation?
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, and I have been endorsing the two ace theory for weeks now, I haven’t changed my tune.
But I am saying we need to be prepared for the potential long term ramifications which may include back-to-back world championships, but may also include one or both of the two aces getting injured or simply getting old, and may include hamstringing the ability of the team to fill the balance of the roster due to the financial commitment to the two aces who cannot reasonably be expected to be performing at as high a level in the back end of their contracts even if they stay healthy. Santana has been a Met for two years and had surgery in both years already.
This is why I endorse simply signing Lackey instead of trading for and signing Halladay.
I know Lackey isn’t as good, but IMO he’s good enough to make a positive difference while not getting paid as much as Halladay and not requiring the prospects the Mets would send for Halladay, therefore lessening the potential negative impact in the future.
Also noteworthy I think the DBacks have had some combination of Randy Johnson, Brandon Webb, Javier Vazquez and Danny Haren during those post-Schilling years, with little to show for it.
Believe me I’d love Halladay, I’d have a sports orgasm if the Mets got him. But I’d be fully cognizant of the fact that it might not provide the ultimate return and it could end badly. I don’t want to operate out of fear of the worst case and therefore be paralyzed, I’m just trying to find more of a balance.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
Gotcha…fine points as usual…I have always been a major 2-ace proponent, and pined for CC for a few minutes on the old site a year ago.
But Halladay’s age, mileage, and price tag surely are all daunting, as is the cost to the farm.
And on the flip side of the 2-ace theory is indeed what you cite regarding the DBacks—Schilling was older and had had injuries, and the team largely collapsed as soon as he was no longer a factor.
Truthfully, I can really endorse Halladay, or I can endorse Lackey for your argument.
What I would have severe trouble doing is accepting getting neither.
That would be pretty awful.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
I agree completely that neither would be rotten.
fongy2
11/18/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Just my opinion but assuming
everyones healthy,the only
“holes” we need to fill are
Legit #1A/2SP,Legit two-way,
veteran LFer, a 7thOR8th inning
RP and a Righty,veteran bat to
complement Murp@1B.
Omar can’t do that for 30/35Mil? If you can get Halladay, you begin there!
fongy2
11/18/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
Would FMart,Niese,Holt&Tejada
get us Halladay,keep talks going
or would they just hang up the phone?
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
A key point in the argument is that with the expensive contracts you need cheap talent to surround them with and keep the budget from skyrocketing, but if we’re trading them all, who’s gonna step up to be the cheap support?
stickguy
11/18/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
wilson valdez, chris carter, Figgy, guys like that.
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
Trade Chips
OF – Pagan, F-Mart
CIF – Murphy, Carter, Davis
MI – Havens, Tejada
SP – Niese, Holt, Mejia
C – Thole
youngins – Familia, Flores, Marte
metfreak
11/18/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
I am so sick of Heyman name one trade/signing he had right in the past few yrs just one I remember he said that the Mets would have to have a package of with Reyes and a few others for Johan .I am down on the Mets and I have very little hope Omar can bring in the help we need but the off season didn’t really start yet and guys like Heyman are making it sound like the Mets already had a bad off season
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
Heyman is a lazy joke, and ignoring him has not diminished my life in any way, shape or form.
My personal favorite tidbit of his was when he said that Pat Burrell could never play out of Philly as he could never hit HR away from home….Burrell hit 21 of his 33 HR on the road in 2008, the year he was referring to.
Heyman is a source of comedy, that’s all.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
The best thing I ever read about Heyman and his ilk was simply a comment by someone in an MLBTR thread. It went something like this:
“If a writer is paid to write about rumors, and go on radio and TV shows and talk about rumors, is that writer going to write a column or show up for his radio/TV gig and say ‘sorry, nothing going on today?’ Of course not. They’re paid for rumors so they’re spouting rumors, whether they exist or not. They have to if they want to keep their job.”
metfreak
11/18/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
I agree but all his rumors have the Mets going after AAAA Players
metfreak
11/18/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
What kills me too is a few times I go over to MattsBlog and he is talking about the Mets going after the B level players then he would go on SNY and thinks he speaks for all of us Met fans
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
AMEN!
Grave, you have just described Buster Olney perfectly.
metsfan4decades
11/18/2009-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
Heyman just annoys me….
Yes to Halladay – but it’s only a dream. Not going to happen.
And I’m probably saying yes just looking at 2010 (’cause I’m so sick of remembering 2007-2009).
Committing that much money could be a very real problem in 2011 and beyond.
CaseStreet
11/18/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Breaking: MC is a socialist:
If I magically owned the Mets, without having paid a dime for it, tomorrow I would start exploring how to make it a non-profit, community-owned organization.
J/K
I often wonder how this fan owned sytem works. I know a few soccer clubs do this but have no idea how it works. I’m gonna have to write the guys at How Stuff Works.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-5:07pm at 5:07 pm (UTC -4)
“Without having paid a dime for it” then I would try to run it in a unique to the league, communal way.
“However, had I paid for it, screw you” seems to be the not so hidden message.
My wild uneducated guess would be that it’s like buying and owning stock.
GravediggerHebner
11/18/2009-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
It might work something like this:
http://www.packers.com/history/fast_facts/stock_history/
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
thanks grave,
here I was calling it socialism (in jest) while it’s actually a Corporation. Usually corporations must benefit the shareholder, here that doesn’t seem to be the case.
whataputz
11/18/2009-8:16pm at 8:16 pm (UTC -4)
Hey how about this solution. We trade for Halliday, say “screw you” to the budget and still fill the holes we need to fill. We play in NY, have a new stadium, and haven’t won a world series in 23 years!..just saying.
Kingman 26
11/18/2009-8:27pm at 8:27 pm (UTC -4)
If the Wilpons really lost nothing to Madoff, and if this is compounded by all of the money that comes off the books, and if this is combined by the Wilpons’(HOPEFUL) desire to quickly rebound from this year’s disaster, maybe we really will be pleasantly surprised by how much they spend.
Halladay AND a bat for LF? Halladay and Brandon Phillips and Arroyo for 3rd starter? It could happen….
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-1:46am at 1:46 am (UTC -4)
I’m not sure I get this.
“Last month, a report released by the trustee showed that Mets LP withdrew $570.5 million from two accounts it held with Madoff’s company, $47.8 million more than it put in. As a result, Mets LP was deemed a “net winner†and ineligible for compensation and potentially liable to being sued by Picard.”
Where does the $770M lost come into play? Did Sterling have $1.4B invested and withdrew $570M, leaving the fake $770M that disappeared when the ponzi bubble burst?
So, yes they made money, but $48M and not the $770M they thought they had.