Recognize this, Met fans? Well, you shouldn’t…
Why did the 2009 New York Mets miss the playoffs this year? It’s a question that everyone asks, everyone answers, but is much simpler than most people think. The Mets missed the playoffs because they did not have enough wins to qualify. They didn’t win enough. Lost too much. Simple, right? Yet every writer, fan, analyst, blogger, beer vendor (you get the point) would usually answer the following: “injuriesâ€, “bad bullpenâ€, “lack of corner outfield powerâ€, “Jose Reyes is too immature and we should trade him for Felix Hernandez†(which is followed by me turning off WFAN since the callers say things such as this). Fact is, they lost because they lost.
The 2009 New York Mets, as seen by their record, were not winners. They weren’t in 2008. Weren’t in 2007. So what happened in 2006 that made them winners? Yes I know, they didn’t win the World Series, but they still won SOMETHING. And that has to count. So, what made the Mets winners? And how do the 2010 Mets become more like the 2006, 2000, 1986, and other winning teams? Easy, go watch a Garden City High School Football Game. No? How about Monroe-Woodbury High School Football? Or better yet, just go watch tapes of Championship seasons and performances from every sport you can think off. Take a look what it takes to be one of these champions, a winner, and what the Mets must do to become winners once again.
Vince Lombardi, one of the greatest coaches of any sport in history, has many a quote about how winning is a habit, the will to win is everything in sport, and if winning doesn’t matter, why do sports games keep a score. Everyone has either heard a Lombardi quote or something based off it. Have the Mets? Have their management? The Mets and management always seem to talk about a winning attitude. Jerry “Gangsta†Manuel always loves to discuss attitude. Problem is, attitudes change. If winning is an attitude, than this can easily change. As pointed out by Marty Noble in his piece about the hiring of Wally Backman, younger Mets players angered older vets such as Tom Glavine, Billy Wagner, and Carlos Delgado by accepting losing. If winning is only an attitude, it is easy to accept losing. After a while, you EXPECT losing. If winning is a habit, an instinct, and your will to win is the most important aspect of everything you do in sport, you will never accept losing. You will always “Expect to Winâ€*.
So did the Mets expect to win in 2009? No. Look at what people were saying throughout the year. Talking about playing hard despite injuries, being competitive, fighting an uphill battle: THE METS WERE ACCEPTING LOSING!!! HOW CAN YOU ACCEPT LOSING WHEN THE SOLE PURPOSE OF YOUR OCCUPATION IS TO WIN!! WHY AM I WRITING IN ALL CAPS!! There we go. Anyway, unlike any semblance of Mets history, the writing was on the wall at Citi Field in 2009. The Mets didn’t give a s*it (poop, feces, excretion, Ollie Perez’s command are all synonyms.) if they won or not. They were just trying to overcome all of the problems they were having. Do that on your own damn time; DO YOUR JOB.
Comparatively, listen to the mission statement of the Yankees. “Are we good enough to get to the World Series and win?†How about this from Brian Cashman: “My job is to build the best team possible to complete our mission statement, which is ‘Are we good enough to get to the World Series and win?’.†The Cashman quote was after this year’s World Series, explaining what he did this off-season to help the Yankees win. The mission statement? From an article in 2000. Cash was asked if there was added pressure because the Yanks were playing the Mets in the Fall Classic. His response was, paraphrased, it doesn’t matter who we play. Our goal is to win. We meet every year in Tampa and focus on completing our mission statement. Wow. Sounds like someone who works for a 27 time World Champion. Omar Minaya, Wilpons, Manuel, what is the mission of the Mets? Be competitive? Screw that! Win!
Look, being a winner isn’t as easy as wanting to win really badly and having a focused vision towards winning. There are a lot of factors that make winners. The Patriots of the 2000’s were winners because they were meticulous in their execution, and they never backed down from anybody. (And the Tuck Rule. Yes, I’m a Raiders fan.) Peyton Manning and the Colts? They are winners because Peyton is the best at what he does, and he works his tail off to make sure that doesn’t change. Why are the current Phillies winners? Because they don’t take crap from anybody, they have talent, and they enjoy beating people. You see, winning in sports is achieved when a group of talented athletes who firmly and confidently believe they will win every single time they play together, regardless of their opponent or any extenuating circumstances. Yes, no team can go 162-0. But when winners and winning teams have injuries to some of their better players, the players around them play better, because they know they are going to win, and play as hard as they can to ensure they are correct in their beliefs. They don’t say they are going to defy the odds. The only teams that win while “defying the odds†are now the sole property of Disney Movies. And I don’t see the Wilpon family selling the team to Disney anytime soon.
84 comments
GravediggerHebner
11/19/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
This post came up “comments off” so I took the liberty of turning them on. If I shouldn’t have done that I apologize.
mikemattone
11/19/2009-5:24pm at 5:24 pm (UTC -4)
No that’s my fault. Finally convinced my IT Department I needed to access websites labeled as “chat”, so I loaded this up from the office. Must have hit something while my 1997 computer was moving slower than Bengie Molina from first to third.
rustyjr
11/19/2009-6:53pm at 6:53 pm (UTC -4)
MORE LIKE ROBINSON CANCEL
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-7:24pm at 7:24 pm (UTC -4)
Mo Vaughn?
GravediggerHebner
11/19/2009-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
Oh and as far as Monroe Woodbury goes, yeah they’re great until they play a school that comes from a real city! They’re the class of Orange County no doubt but their season has ended in defeat 5 of the last 6 years. Is that what Met fans should aspire to?
stickguy
11/19/2009-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Run out od decaf today mattone? j/k, i know you get touchy.
Hard to tel though what exactly winning entails. Do regular season (you know, the 6 month grind they go through) count for anything? Or do you have to capture the WS trophy? Win the LCS and go to the series? a division? does the WC count? The playoffs are, if nothing else, a complete crapshoot.
what about the year that the Giants and DOdgers won like 102 and 103 gaems? Should the team that went home to play golf be considered a loser?
how about when the mariners won 116 games and lost in the 1st round of the playoffs? Were the 86 winn Cards of 2006 a better team (more winners) becuase they got hot an dlucky in the playoffs and won the WS?
the Mets won the most games in the NL from 2006-2008. In 2009, SI and many others picked them to go to the WS, and they were within a couple games of the division lead roughly 1/2 way through the season, before they comepletely collapsed.
so no, the did not take home a trophy or earn a banner since 2006, but they have been one of the more “winning” teams over that time.
You do seem to like the Yankees, and yes, every team should make it their goal to put together the best possible team (given their constraints) every year. And guess what, they do! Even the Mets.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-5:49pm at 5:49 pm (UTC -4)
Yes! Let’s get that Yankee attitude!
Outspend the second highest spender by 50%–that’s what a winning attitude is all about!
Think if we had spent a full 50% more than we did, the results in 2007 and 2008 might have been different?
Think the magical Yankees would have been in the postseason with a $140 mil payroll? Subtract Tex and CC and Burnett from the 2009 Yanks, and that leaves their payroll still at the highest, but barely ahead of number two.
How magical would the magical Cashman and his magical mystery tour mission statement have been in 2009 without Tex, CC, and Burnett?
At home watching the postseason right next to the Mets.
We most definitely need players to play better fundamental baseball and come to camp in shape, and stay in shape, that is absolutely for sure.
And the Phils absolutely play hard-nosed, never-say-die baseball which I admire; they definitely remind me of the 80s Mets.
But gimme a break on the Yankees—they won for precisely one reason–they outspent the second highest spending team by 50%.
rustyjr
11/19/2009-6:56pm at 6:56 pm (UTC -4)
i agree kong but you have to admit when it comes to our team going the extra mile to put us over the top – they kinda almost always stop short ju know what im sayin lol like last year we solidified our bullpen but we still had glaring holes on the bench and in left field as high i am on murph i feel they shoulda at tghe very least made an offer to ibanez or abreu and let murph get more seasoning in aaa – damn how hindsight is 20/20 lol
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-7:12pm at 7:12 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed my friend, I do know what ju sayin, and I was the most pro-Ibanez guy on here last year!
I guess to me, it is just a bit unreasonable to complain about spending when we had the second highest payroll in the game.
As much as it sux, the Yanks have been winning titles since the damn 1920s, and outspending everyone for 90 years–I mean, the way they got Babe Ruth is by buying him from the Red Sox for a ridiculous amount of dough.
Yeah, I wish we had gotten Ibanez–or Dunn, or Abreu–last year, and if we don’t wind up with Halladay or Lackey, or AT LEAST say, Arroyo and Wolf, I am going to be pretty annoyed.
But as for the Yankee “mission statement” etc, come on—their success is due to spending about much more than the next highest spender.
whataputz
11/19/2009-7:09pm at 7:09 pm (UTC -4)
While I agree with this statement 100%, I still think the Mets have got to adopt this attitude to some extent. We don’t pay out our (donkeys)every year to watch them sign Randy Wolf, Marquis Bengie Molina, chone figgins. We need a #2 get a freakin 2! We need a big bat get a big bat! We need both? GET BOTH! Watching this team every year is killing me. The clock is winding down a little bit on this group of players, and we’ve been through too much recent heartbreak to see them go into this offseason and fix 1 hole. We have 2 giant holes, fill them both at all costs, and fill the small ones while your at it. Preach it Mattone!
trs86
11/19/2009-8:04pm at 8:04 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t want to start this debate again but I still find it interesting when we say if the Phillies had lost a lot of players to injury they would not have won you come to defend the Phillies. Yet with the Yankees you always say that if they did not have so and so then they would not have won.
The Yankees did not win in the past because they spent their money foolishly now under Cashman they have spent on the right players AND not traded their top prospects. You gotta give Cashman some credit.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:16pm at 8:16 pm (UTC -4)
I definitely give Cashman some credit for being the only one in all of baseball who could afford to give CC and Tex the contracts he handed out—that was truly brilliant executive work!
If Omar had about $70 more million and signed Lackey and Holliday and Bay and Molina, we could keep the prospects too and Omar and Met fans could pretend he is a great GM.
I am not sure I understand your point on the Phils though….
trs86
11/19/2009-8:18pm at 8:18 pm (UTC -4)
When posters make the comment that if the Phillies had some of the injuries we had you jump to defend the Phillies.
My point with Cashman is that he could have dumped his prospects in panic moves and he could have continued to spend on the wrong guys. It’s not always just about money were if it was the Mets would make the playoffs every year. It’s about spending it on the right people.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:21pm at 8:21 pm (UTC -4)
TRS, if the Yanks did not outspend everyone, OF COURSE they would have had to trade prospects to get players of Tex and CC’s level, as we did with Johan.
And what are you talking about with the Phillies?? What have I said in exactly what context? I don’t get it…
trs86
11/19/2009-8:23pm at 8:23 pm (UTC -4)
When we have mentioned on this blog that the Phillies would not have won if they experienced injuries to Howard or…. they would not have won you have disagreed adamantly.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:28pm at 8:28 pm (UTC -4)
Have I? I don’t really remember that.
If I did, I am not sure I agree with it now, or what on Earth it has to do with anything.
I have always firmly said that 2009 was lost to the Mets almost 100% due to injuries, and I am not sure I have vehemently stated that the Phils surely would have won without Howard or Utley.
In fact, I am quite SURE I have said, here and on the old site, that the Phils never would have beat us out in 2008 had Lidge been hurt.
I think we may both be confused, but I do not think the Phils would have won for sure without Howard; in fact I probably would think the opposite, and regardless I am not sure what it has to do with the topic of this pretty silly post!
trs86
11/19/2009-8:44pm at 8:44 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t want us to talk about the post do you? LOL.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:53pm at 8:53 pm (UTC -4)
LOL! I do, because I really do not remember it….I might have been on a bourbon kick that night or something….
trs86
11/19/2009-9:15pm at 9:15 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, we are missing each other tonight. I was talking about the topic that we are supposed to be talking about.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-9:23pm at 9:23 pm (UTC -4)
Oh man, I AM missing something tonight! I get it now, you meant that I did not want us to talk about THIS very post, when I thought you meant that I did not want you to talk about my alleged post saying the Phils would win with an injured Howard which I do not remember!
LOL!!!
Dolphins about to take the lead!
trs86
11/19/2009-9:28pm at 9:28 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I am not much of a Panthers fan but was hoping they would win so I would not have to hear all the callin guys whine for 2 weeks.
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-8:46pm at 8:46 pm (UTC -4)
ur thinking about fongy
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:47pm at 8:47 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you AGAIN!
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-9:03pm at 9:03 pm (UTC -4)
“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it’s hell.â€
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-9:09pm at 9:09 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you Harry S Street!
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:17pm at 8:17 pm (UTC -4)
OK I am starting to get the Phils point—the Phils spent over 50% less than the Yanks.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:19pm at 8:19 pm (UTC -4)
Nope you missed it.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:26pm at 8:26 pm (UTC -4)
But anyway did not really mean to start this again.
It just ends up going back to my hatred for the Phillies and respect of the Yankees and your hatred of the Yankees and respect of the Phillies. Not a big deal, we are never going to see eye to eye there.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed!
But one thing remains a fact—the Phils spend in the group of the highest second tier spenders along with us and the Red Sox.
The Yanks spend 50% more than the group of teams which all spend the next most in the game.
This we can agree on, and I guess our difference is in how much difference this makes. To me, it is a massive, gigantic, and outrageous disparity that skews the entire sport.
Again, if the Phils and Yanks spent equal amounts in 2009, who wins the WS?
trs86
11/19/2009-8:43pm at 8:43 pm (UTC -4)
Depends on what the Phillies spend it on. You only have so many slots. They could not have spent it on Tex. They could have gotten a more expensive player than Werth or Ibanez but how much better could they have gotten? They could have used the bullpen and staff for sure but would they have upgraded on a perfect Lidge? Would they have dumped Moyer and signed Wolf? Maybe but they had that chance. They could have I guess spent it on AJ but I don’t think AJ would have chosen the Phillies over the Yankees unless really compensated. Perhaps they could have convinced CC to stay in the NL but then they most likely would not have traded for Lee. We can go on and on here. LOL.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:46pm at 8:46 pm (UTC -4)
LOL is right!
OK, I am sure we both have many other Met-related topics to debate.
I think you and I could debate an issue until every other Met fan on Earth has lost interest and gone away!
whataputz
11/19/2009-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
It’s all the difference. How good would the Braves have been had they signed Burnett instead of Lowe? not only does it add players to an already made team, but it takes good players away from teams that are 1 player away from being true contenders. Put Texeira on the Oriels and move huff to another spot and lets see how terrible they would have been (though it was their pitching that sucked, but that line-up would have been nasty). I’m not going to even begin to dive into how good a team like the Rays could be if you allowed them to build their team salary up to 200 mil.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:49pm at 8:49 pm (UTC -4)
If the Marlins spent $100 million with their scouting department, they would go undefeated.
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-8:44pm at 8:44 pm (UTC -4)
Are you kidding me?
How hard is it to say, hmm these guys are the top FA this year?
Give Cashman for overspending on players? (Very appropriate name)
How did these guys pan out:
Giambi, Pavano, Kevin Brown, Clemens in 07
I’m sure there’s many more examples.
Yes, signing CC, Tex and Burnett was a good move, but even Omar could’ve done that.
Cashman’s answer is to throw money at it.
And what Prospects has Cashman produced?
Here’s the Yanks Top 10 Prospects under Cashman:
Year Player, Position 2008
1998 Eric Milton, lhp Res
1999 Nick Johnson, 1b Nationals
2000 Nick Johnson, 1b Nationals
2001 Nick Johnson, 1b Nationals
2002 Drew Henson, 3b Out of baseball
2003 Jose Contreras, rhp White Sox
2004 Dioner Navarro, c Rays
2005 Eric Duncan, 3b Yankees
2006 Phil Hughes, rhp Yankees
2007 Phil Hughes, rhp Yankees
2008 Joba Chamberlain, rhp Yankees
trs86
11/19/2009-8:46pm at 8:46 pm (UTC -4)
You have to spend the money on the right people and they did. Otherwise why don’t they win EVERY year?
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
Because they are NOT great evaluators of talent, they just throw ridiculous amounts of money at everyone every damn year, and in 2009 they finally spent it on the right guys.
Even a blind billionaire squirrel eventually runs into a nut with CC and Tex’s names on it.
whataputz
11/19/2009-9:00pm at 9:00 pm (UTC -4)
Tr..This offseason is a good test of the Mets scouting department. Why? Because they need to fill alot of spots because they have a thing called a budget. Meaning they have to get the most value for their dollars, and have to create a plan of action that could or couldn’t work. That is the test of a front office. However, all Cashman would have to do with this situation would just sign holliday, lackey, molina, figgins , and a big reliever. Thats called throwing money at players. I could be a gm if all ‘i had to do was say “How much is your higher offer? Okay we’ll add 3 mil a year to that and 2 extra years.” And have 0 consequences if they don’t work out. What happened after castillo played terrible for an entire season? We stuck with him, whereas if you were cashman you could have just signed O-Dog and benched castillo. Now it so happens Castillo worked out, but see my point?
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-9:08pm at 9:08 pm (UTC -4)
I sure see your point.
It is a point based on the way the Yankees actually do business, and the only way that an organization which has produced basically zero in the minors other than Cano the last half-decade can win.
whataputz
11/19/2009-11:48pm at 11:48 pm (UTC -4)
ehh…i wouldn’t say noone. Remember Posada Jeter and Mo are all home grown. Granted most teams couldn’t keep all those guys, but they got some good devloped talent, such as jobba, hughes, melky, garner.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:57pm at 8:57 pm (UTC -4)
And Cashman had nothing whatsoever to do with the great homegrown nucleus (core, dare I say?) of the 1996–2000 teams….he has done absolutely nothing except run around with the league’s fattest checkbook, and let’s remember that with the giant payroll, they lost in the first round in ’06 and ’07 and missed the postseason in ’08. Then they REALLY lapped the field and outspent everyone by 50%.
LOL! Let’s go around on this some more!
rustyjr
11/19/2009-6:59pm at 6:59 pm (UTC -4)
just got this from the daily news – it made me laugh lol
Paul Lo Duca: “I’m completely healthy. I feel unbelievable. I’ve been hitting the last four or five days constantly and started my workouts. I feel great. My hand feels 100 percent for the first time in a while. My hamstring and my knee finally healed after the surgery I had there. … I want to come back and play. When I started working with you guys (as a part-time analyst) and started really watching the games it really gave me that edge. My heart’s into it and I want to go back in it full bore and [do] whatever needs to be done. I want to play on a team that wants to win and wants a player that wants to win. I’ll do whatever I need to do. If it’s come off the bench, if it’s spot starts, I’ll do whatever they need me to do.â€
Lo Duca: “I’m a realist. I’m going to be 37 but my knees feel good. I’ve only had one knee surgery. There’s no issues there. I really feel like I can offer a good bat off the bench to somebody and do whatever needs to be done. … Whatever they want me to do. I’ve played other positions before. If they need me to catch and if something goes down then I can do that as well. Whatever the manager asks me to do I’m willing to do.â€
Lo Duca: “Whatever happens I’m looking just to get an invite. If you don’t like me when I’m walking in the clubhouse, hey, you don’t like me, go ahead and send me home. That’s fine. But I’m going to show up in great shape and ready to go. We’ll see what happens. I’m gung-ho. I’m really energetic about coming back. I feel like I still have a lot to offer.â€
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-7:35pm at 7:35 pm (UTC -4)
format police, plz
Chicken b4 the egg argument.
Expect to Win and You’ll Magically Win. Seems like you’ve been reading The Secret.
Meanwhile, you quote Billy “Blame my Team” Wagner and Tom “Losing isn’t Devastating” Glavine as examples of Winners? The article doesn’t name Delgado, BTW.
The team was WINNING (ranked 2nd until the Yanks swept us in late June) which coincided directly with losing Beltran.
Please check out this chart and tell me losing was directly correlated to injuries:
http://www.seanengelhardt.com/index.php?/infodesign/mets-2009/
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-7:39pm at 7:39 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you sir!
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-7:58pm at 7:58 pm (UTC -4)
You are very welcome. Scroll to the bottom of the chart, it chart’s the team’s record. It’s actually an amazing piece of work.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:05pm at 8:05 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, that chart is very, very cool and well done; thanks a lot for posting it.
fongy2
11/19/2009-7:39pm at 7:39 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t agree much with this posting
or really almost any part of any of
the responses. There are many ways
and many variables to winning.
I’ve said it for years now and will con’t to, Among the problems we have
is that the Wilpons aren’t commited
to winning Championships BUT rather in their own words “Playing meaningful
games in September”.
Following the disapointments that became the mid into late 90s,bad trades,signings,
leadership etc, I truly believe the
Wilpons objective at the turn of the century was indeed to “play meaningful games in September” BUT
As much to keep interest in the Mets
alive while the Yankees were in the
middle of another dynasty, hence keep
sales/attendance up, hence con’t to
convince the past two City Mayors
that they were justified in spending
hundreds of millions of tax payer
dollars to subsidize a brand new ball park. Hopefully, “meaningful games in
September” would turn into meaningful
games in October however, if not there
was always the cry of the old Brooklyn Dodgers fans, “wait ’til next year”. And hope would remain high, competetive team, farewell and
thanks for the memories Shea and welcome to the fancy new ball park.
All great! However again, goal number
one hasn’t been…Championship or bust.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-7:48pm at 7:48 pm (UTC -4)
Well Fong buddy, obtaining Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner, Johan, and KRod, and extending Reyes and Wright very early on, and the hundreds of millions their contracts entail, does do a tiny bit of contradicting your thesis my esteemed friend.
And how ’bout my Nets? The record of 0-17 to start a season is clearly within reach if we can just lose to the Knicks Saturday before the west coast trip!
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:02pm at 8:02 pm (UTC -4)
Understand your point!
Mine is though,if winning a title is
the overriding goal,
you go the extra buck,
make the extra move
which it always seem
our FO isn’t want to do.
We were w/o question the best team in baseball in ’06 only
to have our hearts broken by the likes of
Spiezio&Molina.
That off season, yes we
get Santana(kudos to Omar for that)BUT it was almost by default.
He also destroyed the BullPen and went into ’07 counting on an
already hobbled Pedro&El Duque.
Instead of adding a LFer we could count on
Omar turned to old friend Alou.40y/o and
the most physically fragile player of his era. This was gonna put us over the top?
It was that winter that I turned on Omar
and for the first time
Mr.Wilpon.
RE: Your Nets,I’m sad to say they’ve returned to their post
Doctor J/pre-J.Kidd
ways of doing biz’.
Rod Thorne or not.
Also,I wouldn’t count on King James or even
D.Wade next year. I think they both return to their current teams.
The two to chase,and I hope my Knicks do are
Bosh and Joe Johnson.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:09pm at 8:09 pm (UTC -4)
So lets see after coming close to the WS in 2006 and being the best team in the MLB he goes out and gets the best pitcher in the game and that’s not trying to improve? Yes I would have gotten better than Alou but I can’t say they were not trying to win or going the extra step when you sign Santana to the contract they did.
I still have issues with your idea of spending more money. When is it enough? We have had this discussion. This off-season should it be Lackey, Holliday, LaRoche and Molina? Would that be what it takes? Do we need to add 50+ million because we need to buy a championship?
Or is it just that we have to lock up 2 guys like Lackey and Holliday for 12 years combined and 200 million total?
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:12pm at 8:12 pm (UTC -4)
I do wish they had brought more players in than the ones I mention, and while they are surely very rich, I would guess that overall, the Wilpons probably take in a LOT less revenue than the damn Steinbrenners. Again, the Yanks have been doing it since they bought the Babe, so this is nothing new.
And Alou was not the most fragile player of his generation—he might have been the most fragile GREAT player of his generation.
I do think the Nets can be good again very fast…Lopez and Harris, at least one lottery pick, and at least one of the fine platter of free agents next summer. Plus, once the new owner takes over and takes the fiscal handcuffs off of Thorn, he will surely again pull off another fine trade.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:15pm at 8:15 pm (UTC -4)
151, 153, 123, 98. Alou the last 4 years before becoming a Met. While not a rock, certainly not the the most physically fragile player of his era.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:29pm at 8:29 pm (UTC -4)
700+games missed
do to injury in his career BEFORE he got to the Mets…
At 40years old.
Give me another player
good or
bad,
even close.
And again,TRS,Johan,while I’m a thankful for was
a no-brainer.
Especially considering we were starting
Maine &Perez multiple times in playoff games AND there was no compition for him.
You know Trs, I don’t get you sometimes,
you don’t wanna trade too many prospects and don’t wanna spend a dollar above budget.
So….
we get better..How???
trs86
11/19/2009-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t get me at all. I want to trade prospects for the right player and want to go over budget for the right player. Just not for some random player because we have to have it that year and it screws us for years to come.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:54pm at 8:54 pm (UTC -4)
700 seems a little off.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:55pm at 8:55 pm (UTC -4)
Okay,sounds reasonab.le
trs86
11/19/2009-8:57pm at 8:57 pm (UTC -4)
In other words before I go 5/90 on Lackey I would get Wolf and trade for Harang/Arroyo and then try again next year when both would be FA again.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:59pm at 8:59 pm (UTC -4)
Great! So wait ’til next year.
trs86
11/19/2009-9:10pm at 9:10 pm (UTC -4)
Or panic and go all in for next year and screw the future. Hmm, I think they tried that approach too and it did not work either. Why not try and do what can help us win this year AND help for the future? I liked your plan earlier. Go after Doc, cost too much go after Lackey, cost too much go after Arroyo…
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-8:08pm at 8:08 pm (UTC -4)
fong, you’ve said many times that Omar’s prob is not going to distance and filling ALL the holes.
But wouldn’t it have cost very little to do just that compared to what they were already spending on salary?
So, I can’t say that the Wilpons deliberately tried not to win.
Why wouldn’t they spend $10 or even $20M more to make sure their were no holes?
They’d get that back multiplied in Playoff and Attendance money.
Don’t you think they want that extra money?
IMO, it was just thinking they had done enough to Win, but being wrong about it.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:10pm at 8:10 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. As I have said over and over they actually liked Murphy and thought it was a good idea to start him in LF. Not they could not afford or want to pay Abreu. No matter how bad of a decision that was it was not cash motivated. It was just plain stupid.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:36pm at 8:36 pm (UTC -4)
It wasn’t cash motivated?
Really?
So…then…
they just don’t know exactly what they’re
doin’?
B/C ,I don’t care how much you may like
Danny Murphy,
If at that time you can sign
Abreu for A YEAR
you do so and
send Murphy to Buffalo to learn the OF.
Then if Abreu becomes washed up overnight,
he can be moved du to the cheap contract and replace him w/an experienced
(a little),in the OF Murphy who you would have also bought more time to Arb/FA
with.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:38pm at 8:38 pm (UTC -4)
I agree and you know that but you know that I still think they were in love with Murphy and like many other teams did not want any part in Abreu or Dunn.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree,Case.
CaseStreet
11/19/2009-8:54pm at 8:54 pm (UTC -4)
Met’s FO: Stupid, Not Cheap!
trs86
11/19/2009-8:56pm at 8:56 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:58pm at 8:58 pm (UTC -4)
Me too!
And I for one never claimed they were cheap.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-9:00pm at 9:00 pm (UTC -4)
OK, we can all agree on that!
trs86
11/19/2009-8:00pm at 8:00 pm (UTC -4)
Well… that’s something. Uh… I don’t know whether to start with the post or many of the comments I don’t agree with. Man I sound like Fongy.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:37pm at 8:37 pm (UTC -4)
To fuel or discussion from earlier today.
The Dodgers are looking for an ace and rumors support my argument.
” The Dodgers badly need an ace and are focusing on Blue Jay ace Roy Halladay. The Dodgers would have to give up Billingsley and others.”
“They may be looking for starting pitching , but the Dodgers don’t plan to pursue John Lackey, according to Bill Shaikin of the LA Times.”
Again, they are just rumors but at least for now it looks like the Dodgers agree with me.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:43pm at 8:43 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe the Dodgers re-sign Grit Hudson, send him and MANNYCOUPONS to Toronto for Halladay, and we send our ten best AA and AAA prospects to them for the two world champs of heart and soul!!
trs86
11/19/2009-8:49pm at 8:49 pm (UTC -4)
Here is another reason Lackey scares me:
“The Atlanta Braves are shopping Derek Lowe, but not having much success so far”
Granted Lackey is better and younger than Lowe. However, to me they are very similar in the fact that they will get paid over market value because of the position they were in. Now the Braves are stuck with an average pitcher WAY over priced for 3 more years and can’t improve their offense.
trs86
11/19/2009-8:49pm at 8:49 pm (UTC -4)
And that’s magnified by the idea that Lackey wants at least 5 years.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:51pm at 8:51 pm (UTC -4)
But maybe we could get the Braves to eat a lot of Lowe’s deal, and we get him and he bounces back a little, never misses a start, and keeps us in the game most of his outings?
Kind of like a rich man’s Garland maybe??
trs86
11/19/2009-8:55pm at 8:55 pm (UTC -4)
Then why not just sign Wolf or Garland? Or for 15 million sign both? Lowe was TERRIBLE I want no part of that contract. You know the Braves would not pick up even 6 million. At that point it would STILL be a terrible contract.
fongy2
11/19/2009-8:57pm at 8:57 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe b/c neither Wolf nor Garland is as good as
Lackey or Lowe?
trs86
11/19/2009-9:05pm at 9:05 pm (UTC -4)
Kind of like a rich man’s Garland maybe??
Lowe gave up more hits per 9 than Pelfrey last year and had a higher WHIP. Lowe’s H/9 was 10.7 and Livan’s was 10.8. #’s 1 and 2 in the league. For perspective Garland was #8, Moyer 9, Marquis 17, Wolf 39th.
Why would anyone sign on for 3 years at 15 million per? Even if the Braves at 6 million and made it 13 million per for 3 years look at those #’s. I would not want to risk that at all.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-8:58pm at 8:58 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah TRS, but look at Lowe’s career, and Wolf’s and Garland’s…at least Lowe MIGHT go back to being really good.
fongy2
11/19/2009-9:00pm at 9:00 pm (UTC -4)
And I suspect its only amatter of time b/f Wolf goes back to the DL.
trs86
11/19/2009-9:11pm at 9:11 pm (UTC -4)
At 37 years old I suspect it’s only a matter of time before Lowe retires.
trs86
11/19/2009-9:08pm at 9:08 pm (UTC -4)
And Wolf MIGHT continue to do what he has for the past two years. How much money if you were a betting man on Lowe being better than Wolf next year? Would you risk 3/39-45 for Lowe over 1-2 at 9 per for Wolf?
trs86
11/19/2009-9:18pm at 9:18 pm (UTC -4)
“The Brewers are not sure they would want Lowe even if the Braves included significant money in the deal.â€
trs86
11/19/2009-9:31pm at 9:31 pm (UTC -4)
Last point on Lowe. Lowe was the 6th worst starter (based on having enough starts and ERA+)in the NL last year only ahead of the following Livan, Looper, Pelfrey, Nolasco, and Moyer.
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-9:45pm at 9:45 pm (UTC -4)
OK, I think you have sold me on how bad Lowe was last year.
And remember, I was definitely near the head of the anti-Lowe line last year.
I was just thinking that perhaps he had an off-year and might rebound to his pretty good norm.
After all, his 2004 was horrible, even worse than 2009, but he rebounded to have good years every year from 2005–2008…
Uh-oh, you may have to make one more point on Lowe now…LOL…
Kingman 26
11/19/2009-9:54pm at 9:54 pm (UTC -4)
Hey Fong—Dolphins about to reach 5–5, with Buffalo next week; we host the Steelers the last week of the season–how fun if that game is meaningful for us both!!