According to Lynn Henning / The Detroit News: Miguel Cabrera joins Tigers’ trade talks Cabrera’s name has also been added to the list of potential cost cutting moves by the maxed out Tigers. He joins Granderson, Jackson, Magglio Ordonez and just about everyone on the team with the exception of Justin Verlander and Rick Porcello. Â
Of course most of us know a few things about Miggy.
He is one of the best hitters in the game: .324 .396 .547 .942 last season with 34 HR and 334 Total Bases. His career line is .311 .383 .542 .925
He is plump. He was not a good 3B and was moved to 1B because he can hit. In his 2 seasons at 1B he has produced a -2.1 UZR (I still fill it is very flawed for 1B).Â
He was recently arrested  ”in October following a long night of drinking at the Townsend Hotel in Birmingham. After he was driven home at 6:30 a.m. by a bellman, an ugly squabble developed between Cabrera and his wife, Rosangel. Cabrera was displaying a badly scratched face when police officers arrived following a chilling 911 call from his wife. His blood-alcohol level that morning was a stunning 0.26. He had been involved five weeks earlier in another drinking incident at the Townsend, which begot questions about Cabera’s possible alcoholism. “ Oh and by the way, Cabrera was 0-4 with six runners stranded in a 5-1 loss to Chicago on Saturday night 12 hours after being picked up from the police station.
He has a big contract: 10:$20M, 11:$20M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$22M, 15:$22MÂ With those kind of numbers you would assume that the Mets and Redsox would lead the group in teams even able to afford him that need a 1B.
So what do you guys think? Would you make a move for Cabrera if he was available? What would you be willing to give up for the Tigers version of Santa Claus?
209 comments
stickguy
11/24/2009-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
Like the Bat. Interested to see how the person fits in on the club.
But, for all those fans pining for the 1986 era hooligans, Miggy the party animal should fit right in. I could easily see him in his wife beater sitting in the clubhouse having a beer while the game is still going on!
I say take him if the cost (prospects) drops due to the off field issues and bloated contract.
Might live to regret it, but at least it should be fun.
Especially fun if Backman becomes manager!
njstuckintx
11/24/2009-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
For that kind on $ for the Mets to take on, what would it take? We’d have to lose Castillo or possible Perez? I know he’s a monster hitter, but the trend of the weight and mental capacity does make me wonder… then again, I look at his stats and the only wondering ends up being “i wonder how fantastic it would having Miggy swinging that stick in the 4 hole…”
trs86
11/24/2009-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
At 20 a year if they are prepared to give Holliday 18 what is the difference? At least we KNOW Miggy can hit.
njstuckintx
11/24/2009-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
difference to me would be the same debate as hallady vs. lackey. same money, better player, but have to give up prospects.
And for my preference, i would move the prospects for halladay. i’d have to think 2xs about it for miggy. I’d probably lean more to just signing holliday to trading for miggy.
trs86
11/24/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Hmm Backman to manager, sign Myers and trade for Miggy. No woman would come near the Mets.
But back to Miggy
I would give Fmart/Flores/Davis, Holt/Mejia/Jeurys Familia, Niese/Parnell. What do you guys think?
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
I’d keep em for:
1. Doc
2. Mauer
3. King Felix
4. Miggy
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/24/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
all of them?
trs86
11/24/2009-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
I thought the slash marks would make it clear. Choose 1 from each group.
charlie_s
11/24/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Yes. Cannot argue that he is one of the best hitters in baseball and the Mets have the need (both at the plate and in the field) and the means.
His bat instantly puts fear into any pitching staff.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/24/2009-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
I’d rather get Halladay with those prospects. Although Miggy would be real nice addition too.
njstuckintx
11/24/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Agreed! Miggy is better than Holiday, but worth the loss in prospects? Just sign Holiday.
charlie_s
11/24/2009-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
The thing is, if you think about these prospects, they may never turn into anything. Miggy is very much better than Holliday and we all know he can hit in a big pitchers park (Fla.). Holliday? We have seen that he cannot.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
It’s the difference in how MUCH better Miggy is. Seriously you can’t compare their offensive production at all.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Miggy def is an elite player and that contract is huge.
I’d like to see what happens w/ Mauer who is supposed to have a deal done by Christmas. It won’t be easy as both the Sox and Yawkees could use his services.
Gary Carter – Mike Piazza – Joe Mauer
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
not that he’d have any say in it since he doesn’t have a NTC, wouldn’t he like to play w/ fellow Venezuelan superstars Santana and K-Rod?
trs86
11/24/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Mauer is not leaving the Twins and even if he did he would be a Yankee considering they have need a catcher. Besides BIG longterm deals for a catcher would scare me even if we did well with Carter and Piazza.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Can you tell me today’s lottery picks, too? Mauer may stay or he may not.
BTW, why discuss anything if the Yankees are always the impediment to the Mets doing anything?
Besides, Mauer would be turning 27 in April. Even if he got some crazy 10 year deal, he’d be Posada or Variteks age at the end of that contract.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Seriously? Do you honestly think the Mets should just pack it in this year and hope that Mauer becomes available next year? You don’t seriously think they will trade him this off-season do you? I guess it’s possible but I just don’t see it.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
“Do you honestly think the Mets should just pack it in this year and hope that Mauer becomes available next year?”
where in anything I wrote do you get the sense that I think the Mets should pack it in if they don’t get Mauer? That came out of nowhere.
“You don’t seriously think they will trade him this off-season do you?”
Considering Mauer possibly being traded has been a rumor this year (like this Miggy post), I feel that I can discuss the possibility. Next time, I’ll make sure to check with you.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks, I appreciate it. Don’t get all upset. There have been all kinds of rumors of the Twins doing whatever it takes to re-sign Mauer. Until those extensions completely breakdown and he is on the market I see no reason to think he will be there. However, with the Tigers needing to cut salary I think it’s clear in the right deal Miggy would be traded.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
“Until those extensions completely breakdown and he is on the market I see no reason to think he will be there.”
don’t we discuss other guys who aren’t “on the market” yet, like A-Gonz, J. Johnson, Fielder and Miggy?
Yes, Miggy is as likely to get traded as Mauer is. A Slight possibility.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
OK Case. So if you really think there is a s good of a chance for AGonz and Miggy to be traded as Mauer I can’t really argue.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
The dude turns 27 the first month of the 2010 season, so in the last year of his current mega contract he’ll be playing at 32, hardly over the hill, and potentially a bargain in the last year or two if salaries continue to escalate.
He averages 159 games played, 39 doubles, 33 homers, 115 RBI, .315/.388/.548.
He plays a position that is at best a question mark for the Mets.
This strikes me as a classic no-brainer. Barring the strong likelihood of Halladay coming here via trade this winter (because I think the team needs a pitcher more than a hitter) this is a guy I’d trade the farm for, chubbiness and misogyny notwithstanding.
charlie_s
11/24/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Amen. Well said!
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
And I forgot to mention, he has received MVP votes in every year of his career, even his first year in which he played only 87 games.
Do the Mets have anybody who’s received MVP votes every year of their career?
Game changer.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, honestly I would put him ahead of anyone on the market because of age and impact.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
See I would trade for him first and then look at pitching. Perhaps you could still get Lackey most likely not. But I will say that Miggy and Wolf would be better than Lackey and Cameron.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
I disagree. With Wright, Reyes and Beltran, scoring runs isn’t a problem. While with only Santana as a stud pitcher, pitching is a problem.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Really? I completely disagree. If it was Halladay maybe I would agree but then again Miggy is a young stud.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
How do you make up for the lack of runs that Delgado provided in 2008? That’s a big drop off.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
I’d imagine whatever LF/1B combination would come close to Delgado and Tatis.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
So we are getting Holliday and an upgrade at 1B?
Delgado 2008
.271 .353 .518 .871 with 38 HR and 115 RBI
Tatis only played 43 games there but put up
.308 .382 .547 .929 while there and .297 .369 .484 .853 for the season.
How much production would have to come from LF to make up that if Murphy is at 1B?
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
oh, I didn’t know we were playing in 2008. I thought it was 2010 and they play in Citi Field, not shea.
so, unless the Mets are able to reproduce Delgado and Tatis 08, they should pack it up?
I’d imagine Cameron and Murphy can give you 30+. LaRoche hits 30+. Branyan hits 30+. Seriously though, what’s the point of comparing to 2008?
The Mets have 3 elite offensive players and only 1 in the rotation. Seems pretty obvious choice to me.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
“I’d imagine whatever LF/1B combination would come close to Delgado and Tatis.”
When was the last time we had Delgado and Tatis as our starting players for a full season? 2008 Come on Case.
Obviously if in a perfect world I would get Halladay for NEXT year’s team but for the future I am taking a 27 year old Miggy.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
and I’ll continue to believe hitting isn’t what the Mets need to win long term.
I still believe Lackey/Cameron is better than Miggy/Wolf.
seems like ur throwing in 2010, since that rotation isn’t getting you anywhere without a vast improvement from P-O-M.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
No we need both. We need a run producer AND a SP. However, I believe when a superstar that plays a position you need becomes available you do what you need to do. Cabrera is a superstar, Lackey is not.
Now if your point is get Halladay and not Miggy I can understand I just think that the 27 year old Miggy is a better value than Halladay.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
But what’s the point of scoring all those runs, if you’re just gonna give them all back?
Wolf doesn’t solve the Mets rotation problems. If I knew 2 of Pelf, Maine or Perez would perform like we hope, or that Wolf somehow learned to pitch well at 31, then fine. But there’s no indications that either are true.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
You mean like he did when he the last 2 seasons? He is a risk but I can take that risk if Miggy is playing 1B for years to come. Nobody is saying we can’t upgrade on starter later but Miggy a true game changer may not be available later on.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
valid point, but after adding Miggy’s contract, what starter upgrade would the Mets be able to afford?
trs86
11/24/2009-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Remember that Perez is not here longterm. After next year he’s got 1 year 12 million. Not impossible to move or just eat.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
tell that to the people who think you can’t get rid of Castillo without eating some of his salary or taking on someone else’s bad contract.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t think that if we ate half his contract (Castillo) we could move him quickly?
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
of course you can.
But if you eat half of Perez’s contract, with all the increases in salary, will it impede the Mets from getting a top tier pitcher?
trs86
11/24/2009-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Depends on how the look at it. 6 million off of what you would have spent? If you are stuck paying 12 million for Perez to be a #5 starter and suddenly you only are on the hook for 6 million would that not give you more money to spend?
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
That’s fair. I worry a lot about all of the so-called second tier FA pitchers, they all have some strong achilles heel IMO (coming off outlier season, injury history).
I do agree that “if Cabrera to Mets, no Lackey” is likely and I feel strongly the Mets need a significant upgrade to the SP staff. That’s why I put Halladay 1, Cabrera 2 for trade.
If they can’t upgrade the SP staff in what is to me a satisfactory enough way this offseason (Doc, Lack), at least with MCab in house the lineup thumps and he’ll be around for a while. I won’t be happy about Wolf/Pineiro/Marquis (STINKS!
) but with Cabrera I’d be less unhappy about it.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Another good point. You get Cabrerra because names like that are not out there often. Then sign a guy to get through 2010 and you still have Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Santana, Krod and Miggy to add to the next season.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Is Citi right or lefty friendly. I thought righty, but this chart seems to show it is not much of a difference.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
chart:
http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2009_3183&type=ballpark
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know the factual answer. There is a ton of data with that chart and I don’t know how to analyze it intelligently.
I know my gut feeling is it depends on the type of hitter. If you hit (for power) primarily to the corners, it feels like LH or RH pull hitter wouldn’t matter much, with slight edge to LH because of overhang (Pepsi porch).
If you hit (for power) to the gaps, RH pull hitter would seem to have an edge due to that death valley area near the bullpens, but then the overhang comes into play again.
Short answer is I don’t know.
One thing that seems likely, although I don’t claim to know where Miggy’s power is and I am unable to figure out how to isolate hittracker to one batter, but at least he might be able to hit more out to CF at Citi than at Comerica.
fongy2
11/24/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
His wife says
it’s in his right hand….
But beware of his left hook
as well!
trs86
11/24/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Are you a Backman fan?
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
For a long time. And I understand why he was almost blackballed.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Interesting that Mattsblog chose to be critical of this rumor because the guy does not say for sure if Miggy is available. Yet most of the rumors he post are of the same nature. Just like the Branyan post that both of us made yesterday. Mets called Branyan, yeah they probably called 30 players. Mets looking at Dye for 1B. How the hell do we know if that is true? That’s what the rumor mill is. I see no reason this rumor is any more or less likely than the others.
fongy2
11/24/2009-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I’m shocked there’s support for this guy here.
After reading this stream of posts, I
had to double take and make sure I was
on the right blog.
The posts sounded more like those I’d
read on mattsblog.
Thanks, but no thanks to this prodigy.
Spoiled,fat,overpaid and let his teammates down.
Additionaly, like Holliday, you’d be
paying almost exclusively for his bat.
Now, if this guy was a FA, Okay,you explore. But to give up 3 or 4 of your top 5 prospects for this knucklehead? No thanks!
charlie_s
11/24/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
You still read the few comments Matt and his censor panel allow through? I find there is simply zero value to the comments section now.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
I will thake Spoiled,fat,overpaid for a guy who does this .324 .396 .547 .942
Does not seem overpaid to me. In fact according to fangraphs he has been underpaid every year he has been a major leaguer.
fongy2
11/24/2009-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Okay, we’ll agree to disagree on that.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
How can you disagree with what I said? Would you not take Fielder because he is fat? The guy can flat out hit. And you can’t seriously say he is overpaid. Look at the numbers. Find someone who does that for less not named Pujols.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
I would gladly take Fielder
b/c hes a good guy,don’t have to worry
about your 100mil dollar investment blowing up.
He’s also a better player than Cabrera.
I’m allowed to disagree with you TRS,
Please don’t become a 2nd BlogNazi.I don’t want Cabrera,like I don’t want Jose Guillen or Milton Bradley on the team I’ve lived and died with for 37seasons now.
Too me it would be like yankee fans,who can’t
stand a guy until hes with them.
Cabreras
a P.I.T.A.
had problems in Fla and in Det.
You dont think we’d be reading about this guy and his exscapades at 4am in NYC?
He friggin’ let his teammates and the City of Detriot down.
He won’t do the same here?
And Jerry ain’t exactly
Jim Leyland
in the clubhouse.
Again, you want him ,fine.
With respect for you on your blog disagree.Want no part of him.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
It’s fine that you want no part in him. I am not trying to change your mind but to understand it. Like Fielder has been the perfect teammate.?
My point is you said that he was spoiled, fat and overpaid. What I have ask is that is fat an issue? It’s not with Fielder. Is overpaid an issue when it seems as though he is not overpaid? So what it boils down to is based on those you do not like him because he is spoiled.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
This brings me back to my point from yesterday. Who is the perfect player and is he available?
fongy2
11/24/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Carl Crawford but may not be available…YET.
This is why I’ve said that despite as much as I want to win now,maybe we find a placeholder type for LF,
while making sure our core guys really will be health AND
seeing what guys like Murphy,Thole,FMart,Parnell,Niece&Nieve look like come late Feb. I don’t think Holliday is a 100,120,130Million dollar
player and certainly don’t want to pay Cabrera 105Mil and
give up 4 or more top tier
prospects for him.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
How can we say that Crawford is more needed than Miggy? Seriously? They guy is older and nowhere near as productive. Who knows what he would cost in prospects or how much he wants longterm. Certainly not what Miggy will get but look at the difference in production.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Heb, said “perfect fit” And I think
Crawford would be a perfect fit
in LF.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
Then run production would have to come from 1B. You have to have some power in the lineup right? Not just HR but at least some power. Unless we expect Wright to return to form and Beltran to be able hit for power. I love speed too but even the Angels had some sluggers.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Here is another question for you.
Difference in Pagan to Crawford compared to Murphy to Cabrera.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Whats the point?
trs86
11/24/2009-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
“Who is the perfect player and is he available?”
Thus the answer to your question could determine who is the best fit.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
Crawford and a well priced Lackey may certainly be the perfect solution to the Mets in 2010.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Or Miggy and a well priced Lackey or others.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
lol
trs86
11/24/2009-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
What are we saying that there is only one option? Either of those COULD work. I just think there are 3 players that we should be in on for trade right away. Halladay, Agonz and Cabrerra. Those 3 are game changers. Lackey, Holliday, Crawford are nice players.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
it’s just a difference in philosophy.
IMO, the need for a star pitcher is MUCH greater than a need for a star hitter, especially one at 1B.
A power hitting firstbaseman is a dime a dozen. (A. Gozn, Pena, Fielder, Pujols, Howard, Lee)
How many top tier SPers will become available?
I’d say not as many as you’ll find 1B or LF.
Lackey and Crawfor may only be nice players, but they are what the Mets need.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
HOw many game changing 1B will become available? Fielder maybe? Pujols, noway.
SP? Halladay? Webb?
Who knows? It’s not a difference in philosophy. If I had to pick one player to come to the Mets NEXT year regardless of other circumstances I pick Halladay. If I had to pick one to come for the next 6 years I pick Miggy.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! Thank you,Case.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
I’m fine with the direction you guys have taken my question in, but I phrased it poorly and wasn’t really asking what you’re answering.
What I am trying to figure out is, how is it that we as Met fans, desperate for a championship, can continue to say “no thank you” to talented baseball players, and am wondering who is the player that won’t have “no thank you” said to him and is that player available?
Halladay? “great but I can’t mortgage the farm”
Holliday? “pretty good but can he do it away from Coors?”
Lackey? “nice pitcher but he missed 6 weeks each of the past 2 years”
Cabrera? “perennial MVP candidate but chubby drunkard”
Bay? “can’t field”
I am just trying to find out who of the upper echelon, allegedly available players, has “what it takes” to not be dismissed by us?
trs86
11/24/2009-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
That’s just it. We as fans will never agree. LOL.
trs86
11/24/2009-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Puljos. Nope
Next in line for me is Halladay but it depends on the extension. If it’s going to be those same prospects and a 5-6 year contract I worry. Still not sure.
Next in line is Miggy for me.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting article on MLB and domestic abuse here:
http://deadspin.com/5019197/smack-my-bitch-up-major-league-baseballs-continuing-domestic-abuse-problem
metsfan4decades
11/24/2009-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
The Seattle Mariners are to be commended. MLB should take the same stance across the board.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, I was kind of shocked that they were the only team to do that.
Two other things jumped out from that article to me:
1). Indians GM John Hart saying he could not have afforded Wil Cordero if not for his checkered past lowering his salary;
2). Kim Myers saying that the incident with Brett saved their marriage and changed her husband for the better.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
I stand by my word. At 27 years old and one of the best hitters in the game Miggy should be one of the Mets top targets.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Seriously, you Coach…Kids?
trs86
11/24/2009-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, and I think I do a decent job. Been a teacher for 11 years too. What do you do for a living Fong? Want me to doubt your performance because we disagree?
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
Thats not what I mean. I didn’t mean to insult you.
My point was that
a guy like Cabrera is everything you
don’t want kids
to follow.
You should know that.
I’m an Insurance
Fraud Investigator b/t/w and was
a P.I. in NY for
yrs,doing both
Ins.fraud work
and Criminal
Defense. The latter I had to stop for my own
head.Because,almost everyone accused WAS guilty and most
were just bad
people.
Like I’ve said b/f, I’m not looking for a team of angels
BUT i don’t want to have to root for knuckleheads like Cabrera,Bradley
or Myers either.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
When you phrase it the way you did Fongy how else could I take it. So we are judging a man’s entire life based on one mistake? We have no idea who Miguel Cabrera actually is. Would we not take LaRussa as manager because of his DUI?
I just don’t like we when say that a player is a terrible person when we basically know nothing about them. Just like 2007 and early 2008 when everyone was ripping Delgado but then the guy is known around the league for his charity.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
Bobby Cox, too.
“May 1995: Braves manager Bobby Cox is arrested on simple battery charge after his wife called 911 and said Cox hit her. She retracted the statement the following day, and the charges were dropped after the couple attended court-ordered counseling.”
We are all allowed to have and maintain moral stances on ballplayers and coaches, I would not try to talk someone into accepting a player or coach that they find morally reprehensible.
I can only hope that people are consistent in their philosophy one way or the other (I am not accusing anyone of lacking that consistency, just saying), and would add that even in this era of 24 hour cable and internet it’s hard to keep track of all the bad guys, some are bound to slip through the cracks.
That deadspin list linked to above had some people on it I had either never known about or I had long since forgotten about their issues.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Man dad has been in prison when he was younger and I could not have ask for a better father when I was growing up. After I moved out my dad went out and got drunk for the first time in 20 years and got a DUI. I guess I should say he is also garbage. Or is that only for those who got drunk and hit their wife in an arguement instead of driving a weapon?
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Everyone was not ripping Delgado.
A small minority of the idiots like Zen on Metsblog were, with the “Delgado dogged it under Willie” nonsensical drivel.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
Media was running with it Kingman. It’s still out in the media today and many fans still believe it because you got guys like Cerrone still pushing it.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
yes he’s one of the best, but consider this.
Lackey (16) and Miggy (20) = 36M
OR
Lackey (16), LaRoche (8) and Crawford (10) = 34M
Mine costs less in prospects, less in salary and fills more holes. You’d get similar production and make the lineup deeper and you’re not hampered with a LT contract and you don’t have off the field issues.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
LaRoche and Crawford do not give similar prodcution anymore than Wolf and Marquis give similar production to Lackey. And those 2 cost less without any longterm contract.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
Can Wolf and Marquis pitch in the same game like LaRoche and Cameron can hit in the same game?
Can Wolf or Marquis pitch game 2 in a playoff series?
Can Miggy hit twice in the lineup?
Can he field 1B and LF?
Do you think Lackey will actually get 5 or 6 years? Prob 4 at best.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
Can Lackey pitch for Pelfrey for game 3 in a playoff series?
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
Hmm, Pelf or Marquis in game 3. What’s the difference?
At least w/ Lackey you have a pretty good shot of winning game 2.
With Wolf pitching game 2 you want Marquis pitching game 3?
Santana-Lackey-Pelf
OR
Santana-Wolf-Marquis
Okay!
trs86
11/24/2009-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
I hope you are right on Pelfrey hopefully he can be at least what Marquis has been for the last 5 years.
We can go back and forth on this all day but to me on this team Miggy makes more of an impact than Lackey. Again, if you switch that to Halladay then I can see your point.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah Prince is a huge man.
Dude,have you seen his father?
Do you not know his blood lines?
Now,I don’t know Cabrera’s but
I do know he’s 50lbs heaviers than when he showed up a few yrs ago.
Secondly, don’t misrepresent what I said so that it fits your argument FOR
him. It’s not just that he’s obviously spoiled BUT that he’s obviously not a good teammate.
If That was us last season(Det&their2009season)would you be so forgiving of what he did?
Like I said, if they were giving him away in a fire sale or if he was a FA,
Okay, maybe you roll the dice BUT
not for 3or4 top prospects AND having
to pay him 105Mil over the 5 yrs.
trs86
11/24/2009-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I just plain disagree. Talent like Miggy does not come available that often. Fielder has had is own teammate issues as well.
fongy2
11/24/2009-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Fine, I know though that I’ve head and read Fielder is considered the leader of that young bunch of Brewers. A word never
associated with Cabrera.
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
If the Mets can take on this Salary and still address the pitching, then they have to do it. There is no choice. These guys don’t come around too often. The big question is, will the team be willing to take on the type of payroll that Mets fans are clamoring for.
There have always been concerns about weight and he is playing through it just fine. He is young enough where physically he can keep eating Taco Bell. For the wife beating thing, not acceptable but this is baseball and I want the player.
To take on 20mil does the team really have to give much back? They can feel free to have FMart Murph. If they want some of the other prospects then I would want them to take Castillo.
I just wish the team would let us know how much payroll they are willing take one to make it easier for us to come up with BS trade scenario’s.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on being able to dump Castillo in the trade. Would still make sense for the Tigers if they are getting top prospects.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Lost in the more serious and worthwhile discussion above was this:
When I read the headline “Miggy On The Block” I immediately wondered if he were acquired, would Met fan Jennifer Lopez re-record “Jenny From The Block” with new lyrics for his walk-up song?
“Don’t be fooled by the gut that I got, I’m still, I’m still Miggy on the block, used to be little but now I’m not…”
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Look I have a signed pick of Agbayani hitting the HR in the NLCS in my office at work. I sing “Benny and the Mets” to often for my own good. “Miggy on the Block” would get downright crazy in Mets Land.
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Lets get a little Crazy here… Not that I would think that Omar had the balls to do this but would anyone do this:
Wright, Fmart, Murphy for Granderson, Miggy
Feel free to flame.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Please go stand in the corner, now!
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
Lol. Look I love D but Granderson’s stats are somewhat comparable offensively. Detroit gets to dump salary but save face to their franchise. Mets fans would get over D real quick once he starts slugging those homers.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
If we thought Citi Field was bad for David I’m not sure a move to Comerica is right for him.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
I won’t flame, I’ll just ask, who’s playing 3B? Miggy?
Also, nice one above with “Benny and the Mets.”
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
For 3b how about we go down that road when we come to it.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
Sounds like an Omar move.
Fast forward to November 2010: “Well, the people at the bagel shop told me to get a 3B so I got a 3B” at his press conference introducing Scott Rolen.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
Crazy. Granderson is just not as good as advertised.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
Flame is not an adequate word.
Nor is crazy.
This is just plain dumb.
Sorry, you asked for it–and heartily earned it with this idea.
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
Why is it dumb because he is the face of the franchise? Statistically for Offense Miggy is off the charts better. And Granderson would be a uprade in OF, makes less than Wright and is the same age.
If Miggy is put at 3rd, it could be bad news.
As much as I love Wright and Reyes, it’s better to look at them as just statistical meat bags then human beings. This is a business and I want the team to win.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
“statistical meat bags” — I like it.
Reminds me of the Guns N’ Roses lyric from Civil War: “you’re power hungry, selling soldiers in a human grocery store, ain’t that fresh.”
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
You are forgetting defense, baserunning, and attitude–all parts of the game too, no?
Wright is off the charts better at all of these.
And Cabrera is a better hitter than Wright maybe, but not off the charts better; not at all.
saltygary
11/24/2009-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
Wright is a tremendous class act. In the mold of Jeter. Says and does everything WRIGHT off the field. Couldn’t ask for anything better
Fielding sure, but if you do a trade like this and don’t want to put Miggy at 3rd, then I’m sure that there are more defensive options that wouldn’t cost much. Baseball is a individual sport and we are worried about attitudes with this team then they should all go except for wright. Since all they’ve done for the last 3 years tuck their tails.
And Miggy is off the Charts better Off then Wright. No comparison.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
No, he is nothing remotely close to “off the charts” better than Wright offensively. You are totally wrong on this.
Wright’s career line: .309/.389/.518
Cabrera’s:
.311/.383/.542.
They K the same, Wright walks more, Cabrera hits more HR and drives in more, Wright hits more doubles and scores more runs.
Check the overall numbers—they are very similar offensive players, and forgetting off the field stuff, when adding in fielding and baserunning and SB, Wright is CLEARLY a better and more valuable player.
trs86
11/24/2009-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, but I would certainly another guy on the team with those numbers.
fongy2
11/24/2009-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
Trs, You can’t beat up your wife.
No matter how big a P.I.T.A she is:)
Further, And I’ll say it for the
3rd or4th time, he let his teammates and the entire, struggling city of Detriot down. And again, how would you or anyone one else here feel if this had happened as a Met?
We all know,he’d have been run out of town and gotten Jerry and Omar fired.
Wait….that last part may have been a good thing. You also never addressed
my whole point about the kids you coach,and any other kids you may be close to. I for one have raised kids
and been and am still close to family members who are minors and some huge baseball fans. We have to then root for this punk? As far as guys like LaRussa or Cox are concerned, they should have been seriously disciplined
by their teams and MLB for what they
did.Really though, I’m not interested b/c theres no rumors of them becoming
Mgr of the Mets.
He’s a greatly talented ballplayer
but so what? Has that helped Detriot win a championship? Even with many other very talented players, a HOF Mgr
and a high payroll?
And based on his talent alone, your willing to give up likely 4 of our top 5 or so prospects and assure him 105Mil for the next five yrs?
Because he can hit the baseball better
than 95pct of other MLBers?
Seriously my man, you should think over your ardent support and advocacy
for this guy.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
I am with you Fong.
He is a lowlife. And it is not just the situation with his wife.
How about the confrontation with an overweight teenage fan this year? How about him not getting along with teammates in FL? How about his sometime matador-style defense?
This guy is overweight and he is trash, and he has an incredible sum coming to him.
No thanks.
If we can take on a contract like this, take on Halladay, and give TOR whatever they want.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
This guy is overweight and he is trash, and he has an incredible sum coming to him.
I am assuming you mean that his character is trash. I don’t think you could say that his ability is trash.
Also, I don’t get why we keep going back to the overweight part but we excuse it on others like Fielder?
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
What’s with the copying and pasting? Is Mr Bill coaching you on replying?
Of course I was talking about his character, which seems rotten. Does Fielder’s character seem rotten? Has he been in legal trouble? Hit a woman? Fought with a teenager? Is Fielder ready to be moved again at a young age? Has Fielder ever been accused of not hustling?
trs86
11/24/2009-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
I am sure Fielder has been accussed at some point of not hustling and has had issues with his teammates. I have no idea on legal trouble nor if he has hit a woman or had a verbal disagreement with a teenage fan. You point to being moved again at a young age I don’t think that is because of anything other than the Tigers deciding they signed too many big contracts and they can’t get prospects for Gullien, Maggs, Roberson, Willis…
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Or because they don’t want an overweight, non-hustling, bad teammate, non-leader, wife-beating drunk on their team for 20 mil a year.
Just a guess.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
FWIW he did help Florida win a championship in ’03.
Clearly you don’t think he’s worth the trouble and I won’t be able to convince you otherwise.
But for me, a 27 yo with that kind of consistent high end offensive production, I can make room for him on my team. There’s a very small group of ballplayers that talented, young and potentially available. I think it has to at least be strongly considered.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. If he has too much of a history of being a craphead to invest in then I understand your point but I think we are making it a larger case than it is just to support our point.
fongy2
11/24/2009-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
God bless you man! You really are forgiving.
I hope you’d have been as forgiving if Cabrera pulled these antics in a Mets uniform,in the heat of a pennant race.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
Hmm so you start out with God bless but then thank me for being forgiving? I would hope that if it was a family member of your’s you would forgive them for one mistake instead of saying that he is garbage.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I am all for 2nd chances. We don’t really know that much about him. He made a mistake. Sports forgive players like that all the time. Look at Manny, did not want him but he is forgiven for about all he does including quiting on his team and cheating.
I take risk on players with bad reputations all the time. It’s part of being a coach. Sometimes it works and you make a difference in that kids life and sometimes you do not and he becomes a number. That has nothing to do with this situation those are kids this guy is an adult. So if I like Miguel Cabrera it is interfering with my ability to be a teacher or coach? Right. I guess no one should like Jordan either.
fongy2
11/24/2009-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
Kids are still learning and growing.
Whos gonna change a successful 27 y/o whos
worth 100s of millions of dollars?
Again, were not talking
a Sprewell situation where, maybe it was a personality clash and
the gamble is minimal risk very high reward.
You’d be guaranteeing
105 Mil AND having to give-up 3,4 or 5 top prospects.
With this guy’s character sounds alot more like high risk to me.
Can we afford that?
trs86
11/24/2009-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
Sprewell was sober and coked his coach. For what we know Miggy got drunk and made a mistake. We have no idea if that was a repeating issue.
As I said earlier we are basing a man’s entire character on one mistake and some media stories.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
A minimum of two mistakes. From the Det Free Press:
“Saturday’s incident is the second situation since August involving police, Cabrera and the Townsend, according to investigators. Birmingham Police officers responded to the Rugby Grille at 6:30 p.m. Aug. 31 after another patron said Cabrera threatened that he had a gun. According to police reports, the Birmingham man and a friend said hello to Cabrera, who responded with, “What’s up, big boy? You need to work out.â€
When the Birmingham man asked Cabrera to not say that and leave him alone, Cabrera started to “rant and rave,†saying “Let’s go, right now,†“I’ll fight you both,†and “Let’s go outside, I have a Land Rover and I’ll get my ‘click clack,’†motioning the racking of a handgun, according to investigators.
Two waiters then asked Cabrera to leave. Police were unable to locate his address or contact information after the incident, according to the report. “
trs86
11/24/2009-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Police were unable to locate his address or contact info? Whose? A guy who makes 20 million a year?
We don’t really know what that situation was, what was the result of it? Were charges pressed? Was he convicted?
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
Ever notice how guys like David Wright and Carlos Delgado and Alex Cora and Tom Seaver and lots of players who are good human beings NEVER are involved in things like this?
Hmmmmmmm…..
trs86
11/24/2009-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
And Keith Hernandez oh wait. Wish he was not a Met.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
You are really uncharacteristically being weird here.
Keith had a coke problem.
Was Keith ever overweight?
Did he fight with teammates or was he a universally acknowledged leader?
Was he ever in trouble with the law other than the coke?
Did he ever hit a woman?
Threaten a fan in a bar?
You are really making a bit of a strange spectacle of yourself here today.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, Keith and Darryl had a scrum in spring training, because STRAW was a drunken, childish, hungover, wife-beating, bad teammate loser.
trs86
11/24/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
I have NO idea if Keith did any of those things Kingman and neither do you. Well besides overweight which brings me back to the original discussion what does weight have to do with it if we are willing to forgive other players for weight issues?
trs86
11/24/2009-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
Seriously a “Coke” problem. What behaviors accompany a “Coke” problem?
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
In Keith’s case, apparently being a 2-time WS winner and a great leader on and off the field.
In Doc and Darryl’ case, apparently underachieving on the field, alcoholism, recidivism, repeated violent incidents, and totally unfulfilled potential.
Keep at it, I can answer every one correctly on this topic.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
But it’s okay for you to do the same about Fielder? Or Myers?
And isn’t everything we comment on based on some media stories?
Do any of us know any of these players well enough to know what kind of influence they will have on the team?
trs86
11/24/2009-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, I would take Fielder and or Myers. I don’t know them and they could help the team, why would I not take them?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
“As I said earlier we are basing a man’s entire character on one mistake and some media stories.”
Then you defend Cabrera by implicating Fielder’s character. A little consistency is all I ask.
trs86
11/24/2009-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
All that I brought up in terms of his hustle or off the field issues is that we don’t really know much about him. If he has played long enough then there will be a question at some point about him dogging it. Don’t know really ANY player that has not had that happen over the course of their career. As for the off the field issues do we really have a clue?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
No. You said quite matter of factly that Fielder has had “teammate issues.”
fongy2
11/24/2009-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
Okay, I got it.
Just one incident(although I think your math is …as they say ..fuzzy) AND that damn media blew it up worse than it was…..
Getting drunk with a bunch of whiteSox, whos season was over,going home, beating the piss out of your wife,getting arrested,spending a couple hrs in jail,staggering out of lock-up at daylight
and showing up not ready to play the most important game of the season a few hrs later.
On top of not being in shape,having conflicts with various players on the two teams he’s played for,being flat out lazy on defense
and fighting with fans.
Under contract for 105 million dollars and if acquired would cost 3or4 of your top 5 prospect and maybe as many as 5 of your top10…Yeah, sounds like a good gamble.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Correct again, you wise old sage you!
fongy2
11/24/2009-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
My friend, I loved Doc and Straw,like just about all Met fans BUT their lack of self-control
,very much helped destroy a potential dynasty.We always forgave,always forgave..B/C they were OUR guys,home grown,came up when times were bad for us and helped turn everything around. They couldn’t handled success BUT were centerpieces so the FO,the fans and most of the hated media tried and tried again to cover and excuse them.
I’m not interested in someone else’s migrain headache who I’d have to pay a fortune to get AND pay a fortune in salary to keep AND who with one more incident like that of 7weeks ago will become poison,thus making him impossible to ever move.
Not interested in Soap Operas But building a Championship baseball team.
trs86
11/24/2009-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
And helped win our only WS since 1969.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
And had they not been alcoholic cokehead weakling losers, maybe that group would have won more than one.
Gooden never won one postseason game.
trs86
11/24/2009-2:16pm at 2:16 pm (UTC -4)
And maybe if they had not then we would have never won. Isn’t that same team the one that we want to compare others to because of their heart and grit?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see why TRS and Fongy are debating. There is no denying — and Fongy hasn’t — that Cabrera is an elite HOF caliber hitter.
There is also no denying his character issues — though TRS seems to be making unfounded comparisons to Prince Fielder in an attempt to somehow justify trading for Cabrera (a real red herring if you ask me because I don’t see this as being a choice between Fielder and Cabrera).
The main points that Cabrera can hit and that he’s a creep are well documented. This is just a choice of preference. Both positions are reasonable.
Case’s argument is the more worthwhile to debate. Big hitter v. big pitcher…
My thought on that is that you try to get the big pitcher first. If you can not, you get the big hitter. If you can’t pitch, you’d better be able to hit. Improve the team any way you can.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
Totally agree.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
I’m with you and said this above:
“Barring the strong likelihood of Halladay coming here via trade this winter (because I think the team needs a pitcher more than a hitter) this is a guy I’d trade the farm for, chubbiness and misogyny notwithstanding.”
As far as difference makers, I’m looking at Halladay # 1, then Cabrera # 2 (and those opposed to him may interpret that ‘# 2′ however they like).
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
I’m trying to decide whether I place Lackey in front of Cabrera.
While Lackey is a legitimate front of the rotation pitcher, he’s not an elite player like Cabrera. At the same time, my preference for a front of the rotation difference maker dictates in favor of Lackey.
It’s a tough call. But I think I might say Halladay and Lackey come first. If they fail on those fronts, then I’d pursue Cabrera and hope that he, Wright, Reyes and Beltran form one of the nastiest offenses ever… because the Mets will need it to be.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
Fair point on Lackey v Cabrera.
I’m being swayed toward Cabrera knowing that he will be ages 27-32 over the life of his contract (as opposed to 31-36 for Lackey or 32-37 for Halladay at similar length deals) and that he plays every day, not every 5 days, but I am aware of the sad pitching staff w/o either Halladay or Lackey.
I agree it’s a tough call but 27 yo future HOFs are hard to pass up.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Fair enough.
The team will be improved with the additions of any of Halladay, Lackey or Cabrera.
There’s nothing objectionable about wanting the guy with the greatest likelihood to be a high level contributor for the longest time period.
trs86
11/24/2009-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
My only comparison on Fielder and Miggy is the fact people keep going after him because he is fat. That should not come into question unless we would also not want Fielder because of his weight.
Besides media stories that you guys often say is just making a story out of nothing, and the one documented mistake we know happen what else do we have?
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
You are on very thin ice buddy; very thin.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
It was not your only comparison with Fielder:
trs86 says:
Tuesday, November 24 2009 at 12:38 pm
I just plain disagree. Talent like Miggy does not come available that often. Fielder has had is own teammate issues as well.
trs86 says:
Tuesday, November 24 2009 at 12:15 pm
It’s fine that you want no part in him. I am not trying to change your mind but to understand it. Like Fielder has been the perfect teammate.?
My point is you said that he was spoiled, fat and overpaid. What I have ask is that is fat an issue? It’s not with Fielder. Is overpaid an issue when it seems as though he is not overpaid? So what it boils down to is based on those you do not like him because he is spoiled.
Reply
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, snap!
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
He strikes again:
trs86 says:
Tuesday, November 24 2009 at 1:48 pm
I am sure Fielder has been accussed at some point of not hustling and has had issues with his teammates.
trs86
11/24/2009-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny is great at this by telling part of the story:
“Also, I don’t get why we keep going back to the overweight part but we excuse it on others like Fielder?”
Reply
Kingman 26 says:
Tuesday, November 24 2009 at 1:39 pm (Edit)
Of course I was talking about his character, which seems rotten. Does Fielder’s character seem rotten? Has he been in legal trouble? Hit a woman? Fought with a teenager? Is Fielder ready to be moved again at a young age? Has Fielder ever been accused of not hustling?
My reply
I am sure Fielder has been accussed at some point of not hustling and has had issues with his teammates. I have no idea on legal trouble nor if he has hit a woman or had a verbal disagreement with a teenage fan.
And that my friends is the rest of the story.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
Did you not volunteer that Fielder had character issues in the first two examples I posted without any prompting or questioning to that effect?
Come on. You can’t keep changing the criteria. You did it the other day with your sudden and advantageous respect for UZR after previously finding it less useful.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:35pm at 6:35 pm (UTC -4)
No I did not say that Fielder had character issues in the first two examples without being prompted.
Tuesday, November 24 2009 at 12:00 pm (Edit)
How can you disagree with what I said? Would you not take Fielder because he is fat?
Fongy:
I would gladly take Fielder
b/c hes a good guy,don’t have to worry
about your 100mil dollar investment blowing up.
And then my comment as you have already posted in response.
It’s fine that you want no part in him. I am not trying to change your mind but to understand it. Like Fielder has been the perfect teammate.?
My point is you said that he was spoiled, fat and overpaid. What I have ask is that is fat an issue? It’s not with Fielder. Is overpaid an issue when it seems as though he is not overpaid? So what it boils down to is based on those you do not like him because he is spoiled.
So Mr. Lawyer before you start calling people out how about you do the fair thing and put it in context?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-6:42pm at 6:42 pm (UTC -4)
This string started when you claimed that your only comparison about Fielder was about his weight.
That is obviously not true.
You then decided that Fielder has “teammate issues.” Yet, yat the same time you also have decided that we can’t judge Cabrera’s character on “one” (which is erroneous) incident and media reports.
Your behavior in this topic today — and many others recently — has been an absolute joke. And your insistence on creating and changing the rules by which other users develop their thoughts has really been a deterrent, at least for me, to conversing on here as frequently as in the past.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:50pm at 6:50 pm (UTC -4)
Again Wanny go back and read. That is not true. We can debate all we want that is fine. But before you start accusing someone of something you need to go back and actually read.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:56pm at 6:56 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny I am sorry buddy, can you please forgive me?
What is it about my behavior today that you find so offensive? Could it be the fact that I don’t think it’s fair to call someone like Cabrera a Fat, lazy loser based on a couple of things that came out in the media. Or the fact that I object to people saying they don’t want him because he is a fat, lazy piece of garbage? What does fat have to do with it which was my original point?
trs86
11/24/2009-6:36pm at 6:36 pm (UTC -4)
Also on your comment on UZR as I have stated over and over I think it is very flawed on some positions especially 1B and C. However, for the other positions it seems more accurate I GUESS? Seriously do we even understand how it is came up with and what else is there to really even go by?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-6:44pm at 6:44 pm (UTC -4)
Your opinions on certain things seem to change based on which argument you need them to support.
Maybe that’s just my perception.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:50pm at 6:50 pm (UTC -4)
Yup.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-7:23pm at 7:23 pm (UTC -4)
UZR isn’t even used for Catcher.
Using it for first base is just as useful as any other position. The only difference is that 1B don’t make throws, thus ARM is not entered into the calculation.
Everything else is the same, Range, Double Play and Errors are included into the formula.
I just don’t see how you can dismiss something without researching it.
trs86
11/24/2009-7:28pm at 7:28 pm (UTC -4)
Range and throwing are such small stats really for a 1B. I think it’s much more about positioning, digging and the stretch. Are those included? How many errors they cost the other guy because of poor 1B play or how many times the guy is just barely safe because he did not have proper technique?
I completely disagree that UZR is as effective for 1B as other positions.
fongy2
11/24/2009-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
Wow!,Good Lawyering Wanny!
Very impressive!
I vote guilty
as charged!
trs86
11/24/2009-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Sniff sniff I am going to cry. Wanny used part of the story to convict me by a jury of people disagreeing with me. Whatever will I do?
I stand by my story we have no idea if these incidents were isolated or not.
fongy2
11/24/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t worry, be happy! You’r still loved and respected by your fellow fanatics, TRS. Have a good after and here’s hoping Omar does something
Since we’re all obviously going stir crazy at this point
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks wanny, I agree and just want to throw in the caveat that I’d put both Halladay and Lackey before Miggy or any other hitter.
What would the Yankees be without CC or Burnett? Would they have won it all by adding Tex, Wolf and Garland?
Same with the Phils, what did it matter that they could score runs at any moment if they were throwing Pedro out as the #2 pitcher?
Havint two top tier pitchers is more important to me than having a Yankee or Philly lineup.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
If Halladay and Lackey were both ruled out, who would you prioritize next?
While I agree that pitching should be the priority, I don’t think I’d pass up Cabrera for the third best pitcher if that pitcher is someone like Wolf.
DNDJohan aka kistics
11/24/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. If same prospects are used for a trade, I’d rather get Doc over Miggy. But if Doc goes elsewhere, I would love to get Miggy.
As for Miggy’s domestic issue, Mets are very PR sensitive team. If the domestic issue is a one time thing, maybe Wilpons would be okay with bring him in. But if there’s any hint of domestic issue surfacing again, I highly doubt Mets trade for Miggy.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Of course not. After Doc and Lackey, there’s nothing else, so you improve where you can. Miggy, Holliday, etc.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
We’re on the same page. Let’s see if we can find Omar at Bagel Boss, Bagel Oasis or Zabar.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
Feel like driving to Indianapolis?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
I doubt the bagels are any good there.
I’ll wait for Omar to come back to the city or to Long Island.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:29pm at 6:29 pm (UTC -4)
Who was the Phillies 2nd top tier pitcher?
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-6:36pm at 6:36 pm (UTC -4)
Probably the guy who averaged 8ks per 9, had a 4:1 K:BB ratio and a 1.286 WHIP.
Those numbers are pretty good.
trs86
11/24/2009-7:00pm at 7:00 pm (UTC -4)
I am not going to start that debate again tonight and I never should have mentioned it. But if we feel that LAST year Hamels pitched like a #2 then our job of getting a #2 just got a lot easier.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-7:30pm at 7:30 pm (UTC -4)
Plus, in a short series, pitching becomes so much more important.
I may not know everything about baseball, but I’m 100% sure that the difference between the Yanks and Phils was pitching.
The Phils were smart enough to trade for Lee, if they only had Hamels in the playoffs, they wouldn’t have gotten far.
trs86
11/24/2009-7:33pm at 7:33 pm (UTC -4)
True, they may have still beat a bad NL though.
But that being said often the playoffs are a who ever gets hot wins. Got to get to the playoffs for pitching to win the playoffs. Still not sure who gets you there the best. But good debate.
GravediggerHebner
11/24/2009-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
Now that we’ve completely degenerated into a Mr. Bill/Alex copy and paste fest, this seems like a good time to note that Buffalo confirms Ken Oberkfell, Ricky Bones and Jack Voigt as Mgr, PC and BC, and to bid you all good afternoon!
fongy2
11/24/2009-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Likewise, I have to hit the road on this cool,rainy afternoon here in scenic central PA!
As always…….It’s been real!
And….As always………
Let’s Go Mets!!!!!!!!!!!!
trs86
11/24/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
Later grave. I will be out corrupting the minds of the youth I coach.
Kingman 26
11/24/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
Off to NJ for the holiday!
Fong, TRS, Wanny, Case, Grave, Rusty, MF4D, and everyone else on the very best Met site with, quite clearly, the VERY best collection of passionate and knowledgeable fans–
Have a most wonderful holiday with your loved ones, eat and drink well, drive safely, and let’s go Omar!!
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Same to you, Kong.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
same to you Kingman. Safe Travels!
Not much Mets fans can be thankful for this year, except that the season is over.
rustyjr
11/24/2009-5:56pm at 5:56 pm (UTC -4)
cya my friend
trs86
11/24/2009-6:37pm at 6:37 pm (UTC -4)
Have a good one King.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
LaRoche, Johnson, Cantu or Overbay?
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
add Kotchman and Branyan.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
Cantu and LaRoche are the only ones from that group I’d be interested in.
I’d just as soon give Murphy another full chance at 1B before any of the others, all of whom have obvious flaws and will cost much more money. I’m encouraged by Murphy’s second half of 2009 and I still think he has more upside than these guys. We’ll never know if we resign ourselves to mediocrity like Overbay or Kotchman.
And I’d probably not even take LaRoche if significant improvements are made elsewhere.
Cantu would be a fine platoon partner with Murphy and could give Wright some days off.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
Also, Cantu is the only one who can have value as a Murphy insurance policy because he can still play somewhat regularly as a platoon mate.
I suppose the others could platoon, as well. But L/L platoons are much more random and undefined. I think part of what hurt Murph early on last season was the way Jerry would inexplicable jerk him in and out of the lineup.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:38pm at 6:38 pm (UTC -4)
Yes. Although Johnson’s injury issues scare me. LaRoche the issue is how many years. The rest of those guys should be on one year deals.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:48pm at 6:48 pm (UTC -4)
Here is a question and I am sure Wanny knows.
What stat is there to actually measure how good a 1B is? Range and throwing are such small stats really for a 1B. I think it’s much more about positioning, digging and the stretch. To me hands down Tex is the best defensive 1B but he comes up terrible on UZR for this past season. As from what I can tell about UZR it would not really measure those things I mentioned.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-6:52pm at 6:52 pm (UTC -4)
One of the other problems with UZR analyzing 1B defense is that it does not account for the player’s preference to allow the pitcher to cover the base.
I think for 1B you have to rely on the now “old fashioned” range factors along with your own anecdotal observations.
trs86
11/24/2009-6:58pm at 6:58 pm (UTC -4)
Still do we have anything to measure receiving skills at 1B which I think cost the Mets a lot of runs last year. A lot of errors to me would have been saved if a more experienced 1B at been there but I have no way of knowing.
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-7:45pm at 7:45 pm (UTC -4)
errors are part of UZR’s calculations.
According to fangraph’s Error Runs Above Average:
Dunn -2.8
Murphy -2.2
Howard -1.7
Branyan -1.5
Pena -1.3
Pujols -.3
Johnson -.3
Fielder -.3
Delgado .4
Cantu 1.0
Gonzalez 1.1
Cabrera 1.4
Overbay 1.7
Tex 1.9
LaRoche 2.0
Morneau 2.3
Helton 2.4
Kotchman 2.4
CaseStreet
11/24/2009-7:45pm at 7:45 pm (UTC -4)
Tatis 0.0
trs86
11/24/2009-7:51pm at 7:51 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not counted on the 1B when a throw is off-line and he could have made the scoop. It’s not counted as an error when he does not stretch for the ball or does not stay on the bag.
wannybackstra
11/24/2009-7:53pm at 7:53 pm (UTC -4)
Nor is a 3B penalized when he throws one off line and the 1B makes a play for him.
Nothing is perfect.
trs86
11/24/2009-7:57pm at 7:57 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed but to me a good 1B can cover a lot of bad plays and those things don’t show up in HIS stats. Does anyone see where I am coming from here? To me 1B is much different than the other positions. I agree that UZR is the best we have for the other positions but I just don’t like it for 1B because in MY opinion it just does not measure receiving stats.