( A few notes… 1. Anybody who has yet to throw a pitch or take an AB in the Mets organization is not listed so Steven Matz or Juan Urbina are both not here 2. I don’t have a set criteria, it’s not 100% upside vs. 100% production but I do favor upside 3. The level next to their name is where I project them to be in 2010, the Mets have been known for ultra-aggressive promotions but with Tony Bernazard gone word is that may happen less)
1. Jenrry Mejia RHP- AA
2. Fernando Martinez OF- AAA
3. Ike Davis- 1b- AAA
4. Brad Holt- RHP- AA
5. Wilmer Flores- SS PSL
6. Jon Niese-LHP- AAA
7. Reese Havens-SS/2b- AA
8. Kirk Nieuwenhuis-CF- AA
9. Joshua Thole- C- AAA
10. Jeurys Familia- RHP-St. Lucie
11. Kyle Allen- RHP- St. Lucie
12. Ruben Tejada- SS/2b-AAA
13. Zach Lutz- 3b- AA
14. Brant Rustich- RHP- AA
15. Robert Carson- LHP- PSL
16. Scott Moviel-RHP- PSL
17. Eric Niesen-LHP- AA
18. Dillon Gee-RHP-AAA
19. Cesar Puello-OF- Savannah
20. Jefry Marte-3b-Savannah
21. Lucas Duda-1b-AAA
22. Jordany Valdespin- SS/2b- PSL
23. Eric Beaulac- RHP- PSL
24. Francisco Pena- C-AA
25. Darrell Celiciani-OF- Savannah
26. Eduardo Aldama- RHP- Savannah
27. Brahiam Maldonado-OF- AA
28. Richard Lucas-3b- Savannah
29. Alonzo Harris- 2b- Savannah
30. Jim Fuller-LHP- PSL
31. Aderlin Rodriguez-3b-Kingsport
32. Sean Ratlif- OF- PSL
33. Scott Shaw- RHP- AA
34. Eddie Kunz-RHP-AAA
35. Nelfi Zapata- C- Kingsport
36. Armando Rodriguez-RHP- Savannah
37. Robbie Shields-SS-BK
38. Javier Rodriguez-OF-Savannah
39. Stefan Welcn-1b/3b- PSL
40. Jose De La Torre-RHP- AAA
92 comments
GravediggerHebner
12/2/2009-2:02pm at 2:02 pm (UTC -4)
I “covered” the 2009 draft picks for this site and am certainly rooting for #35 to continue to progress and move up the list.
Great name, big dude, I love the power potential. Viva Zapata!
metro
12/2/2009-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah Zapata has legit power on display here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj2m9O-3f5g) and started ULTRA HOT prior to signing before cooling off (also due to too many catchers on the same team) but he moves well well for a big dude and grew up in Mass. so he is further along then say some IFA.
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
I think Valdespin and Rustich are two guys who can make big jumps in status next season (assuming they are healthy, a big assumption in Brant’s case).
No love for Shawn Bowman’s bat?
metro
12/2/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Bowman is actually a personal favorite of mine but my issues are two-fold… 1) his back is still an issue and effected him this year once again and 2) he doesn’t walk at all. That said he is still a plus-plus glove and has pop so he absolutely could have a career as a bench player… if his back holds up.
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly. But I think that assessment is probably good enough to land in the top 40 of a generally weak system.
I’ll be interested to see if Cesar Puello and Aderlin Rodriguez take big steps forward this year. Puello finished the season strongly. Any insight on these two relative babies?
I also hope for a bounce back from Marte, who like his teammate Flores, has been pushed too fast in my opinion.
metro
12/2/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
To be perfectly honest after the top… say 8, there is debate for a lot of guys to be in different places. Puello has plus tools but he too was suspended once for off-the field stuff. Puello is one of those “does everything well” types and is an excellent candidate to “breakout” in 2010… maybe not into our top 10 but close to it. Aderlin Rodriguez apparently has a plus bat but like Marte has real problems in the field. Both players may be future 1b. I obviously haven’t seen either guy play up close but Marte on video has a nice compact swing and legit power to all fields. The Mets probably should have demoted him when it was clear he was overmatched but what can you do. I really like Puello a lot and is easily one of our best OF prospects. I could have put Chase Greene on the list as well but he didn’t do much of anything yet and just being “very fast” doesn’t mean a ton just yet. From 25-60 you could probably come up with a bunch of similar guys.
baseball
12/10/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Please do more homework before you talk about Chase Greene. The Bat and Strike Zone presence is ” way ahead ” of many others on the list. Last time I checked.. if the Manager hits you leadoff.. your job is to get on base. He had the 2nd most doubles on the GCL Roster and this with fewer at bats.. all while learning a New Position.His OPS is also outstanding and higher than others on the list that you talk about their Power?? How can that be?? It is because he makes contact… and is one of the fastest players in Pro Ball.
metro
12/2/2009-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
As for Valdespin/Rustich…. Valdespin is the only thing holding Valdespin back. He has been repremanded on more than one occasion for behavioral issues (even demoted for one such incident) and he also has had “effort” issues. Rustich is a hard one to judge. He has been injured off and on since his time at UCLA. He has plus stuff (I no longer judge it truly plus-plus as he had to ditch his vulcan changeup and his minor league numbers aren’t eyepopping for a guy with a golden arm. That said, big-time arm, more upside than Parnell, wouldn’t entirely stun me to see him in CitiField by the end of 2010.
PS He pitched all of 2009 with a break in his arm.
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Moviel and Shaw both seem to fit into the same category of not having the type of stuff you would expect from their body types and sizes.
Rustich did once have that stuff but as you say injuries have already taken their toll.
I think I said once before on this site that I thought Rustich is more likely a long term solution in the seventh or 8th inning than is Parnell. And it shouldn’t take Rustich all that long to develop the two pitches required as opposed to converting him back to starting.
metro
12/2/2009-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Rustich has legit swing and miss stuff (a plus fb) in terms of movement and velocity and a plus-breaker. Nothing against Parnell but right now he is a one pitch guy who on a handful of occasions flashed a nice slider (Parnell doesn’t have great movement on his FB like Rustich does) Rustich also has the mind-set of a guy you want in there in the late innings. I’m still high on Moviel. He hit 93 on the gun in the AFL and he still has the upside of a Chris Young type. I don’t know what to make of Shaw lol
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
Your point below about minor league instruction is the key. I don’t think the Mets have produced players from their farm system quite the way they should. Granted they don’t spend money in the draft but this team doesn’t have very many supporting contributors from its farm system let alone stars other than Wright and Reyes.
Even the players they’ve traded from their farm systems have rarely panned out (Heath Bell being one exception).
Maybe the additions of guys like Collins and Backman will change that. I’d really like to see the philosphy on the draft change, however. That’s my biggest criticism of this regime; cheaping out on the draft and not producing too few regular contributors of its own since Wright and Reyes (Pelfrey, Heilman…).
metro
12/2/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Oh hell yeah. Spending is obviously key but the Mets player instruction is seemingly horrible. Note that in the last few years players like Murphy, Evans, Milledge and Thole all came up with severe defensive issues as well as issues (not including Thole here as I didn’t see him enough) with the little things like base running and which base to throw to (Murphy and Milledge were especially poor at this). Now young players in GENERAL struggle but it seems like the mets don’t prepare players for the bigs as well as other teams. Heck even Pelfrey and Parnell are majorly flawed players with big talent.
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly. Excellent points.
And don’t forget Angel Pagan also grew up in the Mets system where baserunning and bunting was apparently never taught.
metro
12/2/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Yes Pagan another excellent example.
metro
12/2/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
I also think (absolutely not making a racist comment here) that we may see some positive production from a lot of the younger Latin players with Bernazard gone. He apparently went out of his way to single them out saying things like “your lucky you are here, we own you” etc and to a non-english speaker in a foreign place I imagine that would be terrifying. He also apparently went out of his way to do personal instruction even going over the head of instructors which I’m sure could be confusing for players.
trs86
12/2/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
No doubt those things could be bad. Do you have a link for those things?
metro
12/2/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
TRS,
If you are willing to scroll through a lot of stuff you will find a lot of Bernazard articles here…. mostly from Rubin and Bill Madden but I believe some other writers as well.
http://www.nyfuturestars.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=28217&highlight=bernazard
metro
12/2/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
lol
It was an ungodly encounter, to say the least.
Tony Bernazard, the Mets’ vice president of player development, was visiting the Brooklyn Cyclones’ clubhouse last season when a chaplain entered the room.
“Get the f— out of the locker room,” Bernazard yelled, according to sources who witnessed the outburst. “Who the f— are you?”
When Bernazard was told by the chaplain his profession and purpose for being there, the Met executive erupted with more fury. “I don’t give a f—., get the f— out of here m—–f—,” blurted Bernazard. The chaplian quickly exited.
metro
12/2/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
“Quote:
“When he was around, everyone was walking on eggshells,” says Doug McNulty, a former Mets farmhand who was released this spring. “He’d be perfect with the players’ union and dealing with arbitration, but Tony shouldn’t be anywhere near a team. He shows no one any respect.”
McNulty, 24, was having, in his words, “one of my best days” during his short Mets baseball career earlier this year, belting a home run off former All Star pitcher Freddy Garcia in an early-morning intra-squad game at the team’s Port St. Lucie spring training complex. While he was in the minor-league clubhouse during breaks between scrimmages and drills that day, McNulty texted his friends about his exploits. His 10-hour work day started at 7 a.m. and ended with some routine base-running drills.
And that is when Bernazard erupted.
“McNulty, do it the f— again,” Bernazard barked at the first baseman as he completed his final turn on a base-running drill. “I was like, ‘You’ve got to be sh—— me.’ It’s the end of the day, I’ve busted my jerk and he’s sitting in his golf cart near home plate. When I ran around third base after repeating the drill, Tony just drove away laughing. I had some respect for him, but I lost it that day. It was like, ‘I’m Tony Bernazard, I can do anything I want.’”"
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_tony_bern_out.html?page=1#ixzz0N8mRdeOt
metro
12/2/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
Adam Rubin also noted in one of his chats that Bernazard was nearly FULLY in charge of the aggressive promotions the Mets did… Fernando, Mejia, Veloz, Pellot, Lagares, Marte, Flores etc
fongy2
12/2/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
for the last half hr , I’ve been
scouring the net looking for updated info on Bengie Molina.
Its looking like this will happen.
If Omar gives this guy more than a yr
and 5or6mil, he should be fired.
Sounds though like he’ll get at least
2ys and 14to 16 mil. If so, how can
this be justified.
Jeez, I’ve tried to remain optimistic
despite knowing Omar and Jerry would be back and that we were gonna stay within a budget and nothing yet has happened BUT I’m really getting a bad
feeling about this off-season.
metro
12/2/2009-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
I’d offer Molina 1 year with a second year vested option or take a hike. .285 OBP, yeah 20 homers is great for a catcher but what are the odds he hits 20 in CitiField? Molina has 2 very nice skills… he has plus power for a catcher and he handles pitchers well (he no longer is a great defensive catcher) and he is old. Since he wasn’t offered arbitration I’m LESS down on adding him but 1 year guaranteed is all I would give him.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. He’s an extremely slow runner too. But I think it would take 1+1 or even 2 yr contract to get him here. Fatcessa and Heyman has suggested $8M per year, but that ridiculous. I think at the MOST the contract should be 2/12.
metro
12/2/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
2 years 16 million is absolutely ridiculous. Omar needs to learn to not bid against himself. What other team is giving Molina even CLOSE to that and honestly if you lose him to a team giving him close to that… is that really the end of the world? Personally I prefer a trade for Doumit anyway but guys like Navarro, Laird etc (while inferior to Molina… though I Laird’s defense is FANTASTIC) are probably better values.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. If Molina is demanding something north of $6M per year, then Mets should walk away. But Omar is in love with this dude.
metro
12/2/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Supposedly Brad Holt is in the doghouse for declining to go to Instructional League DR
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
This is what I don’t get and very frustrating.
Pretty much every so called ‘experts’ out there including the bloggers have said that getting #2 SP behind Johan is Mets #1 priority. WHY DOESN’T OMAR KNOW THAT???????
I really think Omar is playing the market game here. He knows that there would only be handful of teams chasing after Lackey, Holliday or Bay. It seems like he’s sitting on his butt until their prices drop. But I really really really think Omar needs to be aggressive here. Make an offer and let them know and let the fans know the Mets want them.
metro
12/2/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets are right to be concerned with Lackey’s arm. 2 straight years of 180 or less innings. That being said he has never had issues once the seasons started so it shouldn’t be a MONSTER concern but you can’t give Lackey ace prices for 2/3 ability and right now I’m sure he is looking for ace prices.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
But how happy would you be if the Mets signed Wolf or Pineiro?
Johan
Wolf
Pelf
Maine
Ollie
This is not a good rotation. Wolf or Pineiro may have been good last year, but any major league pitcher can be good for one year.
You are right that he’s probably won’t get paid Ace money. So are we accepting another mediocre season just because Lackey doesn’t deserve Ace money?
What the Mets are facing is serious competition. Phillies were in WS back to back years and will not go away any time soon. Marlins and Braves are no push overs either. So Mets need to get a true #2 behind Johan if they want to compete. No buts or ifs.
metro
12/2/2009-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
Depends what else they added. Randy Wolf actually had a superior year to Lackey in 2009 and Piniero did as well. Now I would take Lackey over both of them but when you give John Lackey 18-20 million then what do you think it costs to keep Wright and Reyes? Without the Mets bumping the payroll significantly higher it’s very though to field a team with 2 pitchers making around 40 million and a 3b/SS who likely will combine for nearly 40 as well. That’s 4 players 80 million and K-Rod himself has a 17.5 million dollar vested option. It’s a dangerous game to play.
metro
12/2/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
John Lackey’s career numbers are similar to those of Lowe and Burnett. Lowe got 15 per (yes he was 36 years old) and Burnett got 16.5 coming off a year where he led the AL in K’s and threw 221 innings. So John Lackey in my eyes is worth no more than 5 years 87.5 or so million yet he supposedly is trying to land a 100 million dollar deal. It’s hard to argue Lackey is worth 40 million more than Lowe or nearly 20 million more than Burnett.
metro
12/2/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
Player 1- 3.84 era 1.30 whip 8.37 k/9- 31 years old
Player 2- 3.84 era 1.29 whip 5.84 k/9- 36 years old
Player 3- 3.81 era 1.31 whip 7.20 k/9- 31 years old
Now tell me which one is worth 20-40 million more
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with you on that. I don’t think Lackey should get 100M and I’m pretty sure he won’t get 100M. But why not offer him 5/85? That’s 17M per year. I think that’s still on the high side, but I just want Omar to do something. Be proactive and stop playing games.
metro
12/2/2009-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
Well I would. My Max offer would be 5 years 17.5 per which would be 1 million more a year then Burnett got. I wouldn’t give him a penny more and I wouldn’t give 6 years under any circumstances. Ideally it would be 4 guaranteed at a higher salary….
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
I think the strategy would be to offer him 4/65 or something like that. And then extend to 5th yr if it comes down to it. But yes, max should be 17-17.5. Not many teams will offer that much either.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
But the Mets payroll is going to be north of 160M. I believe there’s plenty of money to be spent. I hate to say this, but Yanks are doing fine with their payroll.
metro
12/2/2009-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
North of 160 million? I really really doubt that.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
Their payroll was 145-150 last year. By the time Wright and Reyes become FA, I’m sure Mets payroll have increased by 10-15M.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
The writing on the wall is LOUD and CLEAR. Omar just doesn’t seem to see that.
fongy2
12/2/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Makes too much simple sense!
You should know from the Wilpon’s And Omar’s history,
there’s always game/mind playing and trying to out smart everyone else, all the
while shuckin’ and jivin’
and double talkin’……
The media and their fans.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
And all the game/mind playing has worked in some cases. But I guess they are not desperate enough like most fans are.
I truly believe that IF the Mets are going to beat Phillies, they need a true #2. I don’t care if it’s Lackey or Halladay or whomever. They are in desperate need.
And I think most of us believe that Offensive holes can be plugged in with 2nd tier guys.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
I agree and I think its continualy
disingenuous of
some here to say”Lackey hasn’t pitched
more than 180 innings the last two seasons”
Which first off
is incorrect.
As if the games Pitched
in October don’t count and
as if he ended
’08 injured and
wasn’t ready to go should the Angels have advanced
further in the playoffs.
Additionally, some keep referring to him as a #2…
And Now #3,despite the
fact that hes been the Ace of
a pretty good staff on what is the best team in their Division for yrs and one of
the 3 best in the AL for almost a decade
now. Look, he
isn’t Johan,Halladay
or CC BUT this
guy is w/o question one of
the 15 to 18 best SPs in Baseball who like I’ve said before would be
the Ace of half the teams
in the game and
no less than the #2 on the other half.
Lastly, some here keep throwing out
rumors of possible arm trouble.Where is there ANY evidence of that?? At all?
He began each of the last two seasons on
the DL, yes…
BUT after a month came off,
didnt miss a start after that and AGAIN,
Pitched well into October.
…Effectively.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
good point.
metro
12/2/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
Evidence would be he was shut down due to arm tightness why else would he not start the year with the team?
metro
12/2/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
Your not paying simply for Lackey at age 31, you are paying him for the next 5 years so things such as missed starts (even if it’s to begin the year) are things you absolutely need to take into account. AJ Burnett went 207 innings THEN 27 in the playoffs for 234 innings, CC Sabathia pitched 264 innings including the playoffs they both made 30+ starts, Lackey the last 2 years has made 24 (9 less than an average pitcher) and 27 (6 less than an average pitcher) that is 13-15 starts your paying for yet guys like Figgy would be pitching. I’m not against Lackey but you need to examine everything such as his ERA+ the last 2 years being the worst of the last 5 years of his career. If you are paying 17+ million you better be getting 30+ starts a year. AJ Burnett aka “he’s always hurt” has made 67 starts the past 2 seasons, Lackey has made 51.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Dude,you never had muscle tightness?
Point is,he returned, pitched the rest of the season and was still going strong well into October…Long after the entire Met staff had completed their season.
metro
12/2/2009-4:43pm at 4:43 pm (UTC -4)
Muscle tightness to miss 9 regular season and then 7 regular season starts? He didn’t simply go on the 15 DL, he missed significant time. What he did in the playoffs is wonderful but that means very little in terms of what he is going to do over the next 5 years (also scary that his own team doesn’t seem that interested in keeping him). Again I’m not against Lackey but you need to look at 13-15 missed starts over 2 years (regular season or not) and be concerned
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
Not to mention that Lackey has tremendous experience in post season. This guy knows how to pitch and pitch well in big spots.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
I just don’t see why a team would give this guy so much money and years. IMO he’s not that good. Not at that money.
metro
12/2/2009-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
All those things are wonderful but there are significant concerns about Lackey. Like I said I’d be willing to go 5 years 17.5 per (so obviously I like him) but to act like the Mets are being “ridiculous” if they are scared of a guy who missed that many starts and whose team isn’t trying to keep him isn’t very fair. He has comparable numbers to Burnett and Lowe and thus should be paid “within reason” of what they got. Burnett got 16.5, Lowe 15… Lackey is worth around 17-17.5 in my opinion.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
Metro I agree with you. I don’t think he’s worth 20M. I think 16-17M is just the right price for Lackey. All I’m saying is that stop playing these stupid games and just go get him already.
If Lackey rejects the offer and wants to get paid more, then fine. Go elsewhere. But from all the reports I’m reading/hearing, Mets are not interested in this guy. They’d rather go with a route of Wolf/Pineiro.
metro
12/2/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Where exactly is Bengie Molina going to get 2 years 16 million (or close to it) unless the Mets are idiots and overpay? Especially when you consider the Yankees, Sox, Dodgers, Phillies, Giants (not that they are big spenders but they basically have said goodbye), White Sox, Tigers, Orioles, Angels, Braves all will be sitting this out. Where is this mysterious 2 year 16 coming from? When you really look at it, Molina better be happy the Mets are there to give him a nice deal. I’d tell him 1 year 6 million with a team option (7 million) 2 million dollar buyout. Which team jumps in and gives Molina this?
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Where exactly was Luis Castillo gonna get 4yrs
and 24million?????
Oh,…Hello, Uncle Omar!
metro
12/2/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
My point is the Mets need to learn to not bid against themselves. Other than the Mariners I can’t think of one big market or even middle market team with both a need at catcher and money to burn.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, Omar should have
learned that
a long time
ago.
After Lowe got
4yrs from The Braves,who was
giving Ollie 3/
36???.
metro
12/2/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Yankees, Sox, TB, White Sox, Tigers, Angels, A’s, Rangers, Braves, Marlins, Phillies, Dodgers, Giants, Arizona, Padres, Cubs, Cardinals….. so outside of the Mariners I can’t think of one team with money that would give him any more than 3-4 million.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
Kistics, while I’d love to see lackey or holliday signed ASAP, playing the market is the way to go. It worked last year with k-rod, and worked with santana. This market is filled with talented players, and not many teams looking to shell out the dough.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed!
So heres hoping we don’t wake up tomorrow to learn Bengie
Molina is our new starting Catcher!
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
I can see tomorrows headlines “Molina signs 5 year 50 million dollar deal with Mets.”….but I’d be perfectly content reading tomorrow that they signed molina to a 1 year deal.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
I understand your point. And that would be the case if the Mets are playing in the same division with the Phillies, Marlins or Braves. If the Mets sit aroud to play the market AND lose out on Lackey, Halladay, Holliday or Bay, they’re not winning this division for sure. Yes, you play the market to certain degree, but you still need to be aggressive in trying to sign these guys.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
Alright but none of these guys have been signed yet, so i don’t see your point. You really think he’s just going to sit back and watch everyone get signed. When has this ever happened. Hes tried this strategy twice, and its worked both times. Give credit were credit is due,
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:04pm at 5:04 pm (UTC -4)
Yes Omar’s strategy worked great with KRod and Johan. But what guarantees are there that it’ll work with Lackey?
Plus, what happens if Lackey/Halladay goes elsewhere? Mets are stuck with Wolf or Pineiro?? Will you be happy with those guys?
Lackey IS that good. Sure the record shows he’s only won 14+ games more than once or whatever. But this guy is a proven pitcher. He’s done it in WS. He has the rings to show for. That’s got to count for something.
Look at Vazquez with the Yankees. He was a very good pitcher until he came to the Yankees. He struggled because he couldn’t handle NY. Lackey can handle the pressure. That’s a big plus when signing FAs.
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
First off I don’t really want Lackey, second I’m not guaranteeing it will work, but it has worked, and how many teams out there are going to spend the money? Oh and don’t forget we could always try to acquire a pitcher via trade. The only scenario I condone shelling out the money for lackey is if all big pitchers on the market are taken, but i’m not for going out and signing him as plan A.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
Other than Halladay, what other #2 SPs are there available?
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
The meetings haven’t even started so players could become available, but to name a few names that hae been swirling around: Edwin Jackson, Javier Vasquez, you still have to list Halladay. Just three off the top of my head.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:44pm at 5:44 pm (UTC -4)
Did you not see what Vazquez was when he was with the Yankees? He cannot handle NY. Edwin Jackson hasn’t done enough to claim himself to the true #2 IMO. Don’t forget Ollie won 15 games with 3.56 ERA in ’08. He has also stuck out over 200 in ’04 as well. Doesn’t mean he’s a #2 behind Johan.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
Has Lackey had any type of surgery?
Any? And aren’t the Angels always very cautious with their players?
And aren’t they on a budget? And didn’t they also not make any offer to KRod? And don’t they have one of the 5 best farm systems in the game?
And shouldn’t we be more concerned about the post-op condition of
Reyes and Johan?
C’mon. I don’t wanna just give Lackey anything he wants BUT if
we’re talkin’ a Derek Lowe type deal
,Omar must be seriously involved!
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
I think the money is better spent on a legitamite power bat and wolf/marquis/pineiro, than to commit the money to lackey and leave this line-up weak.
metro
12/2/2009-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
I happen to agree that if we could add a big ticket item it would be Holliday (well I prefer dealing for Cabrera but I doubt it happens) to be 1000% honest I would go smaller and add Uggla and Doumit and then sign Piniero and Sheets and let these team compete with that, if they were good id make a deal mid-season and if not you’d have guys like Ike Davis etc ready for 2011 with tons of cash to burn.
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:04pm at 5:04 pm (UTC -4)
Yes I agree. I’m not big on Holliday either. Once again, not at that money. Neither Lackey or Holliday is worth leaving your team with question marks.
metro
12/2/2009-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
They did make an offer to keep K-Rod which he rejected before the season ended and to be honest they were probably correct letting him go as this was the worst year of his career despite CitiField. Now it may be a little bit unfair because the entire team sucked but the Angels didn’t miss K-Rod and the Mets could have won 70 without K-Rod. It’s easier to replace a closer than your ace. Also if the Angels were on such a “tight budget” they wouldn’t have added Kazmir and his big salary if the intention was to keep Lackey. Again I would love to add Lackey within reason but I’m not going to kill the Mets from drawing a realistic line in the sand.
fongy2
12/2/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
Agree about a line in the sand BUT if there
aren’t many bidders and it doesn’t get beyond 3or4yrs,theres
no excuse.None!
If the goal is to try and win in’10or’11 while Johan,KRod,Reyes,Wright&Beltran are still in their prime they
owe them AND us at least a full hearted attempt to acquire
the best Pitcher on
the market.
If not than why not
just go with Santos/Thole,Murphy
and con’t developing
FMart,Niece,Parnell,etc.,etc. And don’t waste time and money
patchworking with guys
like Wolf,Byrd etc,etc.
There is more than enough money in the Met budget to address the two most glaring
needs..A legit #2 behind Johan And a
legit middle of the order bat for LF.
metro
12/2/2009-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy,
I’d go as high as 19 million per if you told me it was 3-4 years. So I’m not against Lackey.
GravediggerHebner
12/2/2009-5:05pm at 5:05 pm (UTC -4)
As anyone who reads this sites posts or comments regularly knows, Lackey is THE ONE guy I want the Mets to get. Based on facts and statistics, as well as my general like for the player, I covet him more than any available FA regardless of position, and the only SP who has been even slightly rumored to be available that I’d rather have than him is Halladay who of course is the better pitcher than Lackey.
I shy away from Halladay solely because of the investment both of players to trade for him and then the contract extension. Without trading away a significant player already in house I just don’t see the team affording Halladay.
Having said all that, I can appreciate the perspective of establishing a financial ceiling for Lackey and should he turn it down, moving on. I don’t share that perspective, I believe the Mets so sorely need a quality SP that I personally endorse them overpaying (only if in a true, not imaginary, bidding war) to get him. But I do understand that others don’t agree with me on that and I respect their opinions.
It may be irresponsible or irrational of me, but I’ve admired the guy since he came up, I love the way he goes about his business, and my awareness that he has missed the opening 6 weeks or so of the last 2 seasons does not dissuade me from my belief that John Lackey, the whole package both statistically and subjectively, both on the field and off, is exactly what this team needs.
fongy2
12/2/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
Amen!
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
since when is 11 wins and a 3.83 era in the al west deserving of ace money?
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
So you believe Wolf or Pineiro deserve to get more money than Lackey simply because their record was better in ’09?
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
No, but there’s no reason to sign lackey for more than you could sign the both of those guys combined. Not to mention you could get those guys on shorter deals. Lackey is not worth ruining our line-up. You can sign peneiro and a big bat and probably have room for marquis or sheets or another pitcher. If you sign lackey, what legitimate power bat are we getting with him?
fongy2
12/2/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
Who knows?…..
Yet.
But you you wanna Gamble that Piniero
and Wolf don’t
return to form
when not pitching for
a contract?
GravediggerHebner
12/2/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
I know you’re not asking me but I’m going to jump in here.
I think short of someone who is likely to hit 45-50 home runs (and I don’t know who does that that is available) I don’t think this team getting “a legitimate power bat” is going to matter much.
This team hit so few home runs last year that even if every injured player still under contract (Beltran, Reyes) stays healthy and has their average season, and even if a guy who underperformed (Wright) returns to form, AND even if the Mets sign a 30 HR hitting LF, this team would still be in the bottom third of the major leagues in HR and the bottom half of the NL in HR.
This team as described in the above paragraph would still not hit as many HR as ANY NL team that has made the playoffs in the last 3 years.
So given that, I really am not terribly concerned with adding a legitimate power bat. Unless the team adds not only this legitimate power bat, AND a 1B who will hit roughly 10 HR more than Murphy might, AND a 2B who will hit roughly 10 HR more than Castillo will OR a C who will hit roughly 10 HR than Santos will, the team will still be power starved compared to the rest of the NL.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
Especially when you are competing against Phillie Phucs. Not to mention Phillie Phucs have Lee AND Hamels.
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:30pm at 5:30 pm (UTC -4)
O man is that hypocritical! I mean I don’t know your personal opinion on Hamels kristics, but from what I read here, every1 seems to think Hamels sucks. Very convenient now to call him an ace. I apologize if you’re one of the few here (myself included) that does actually think hamels is a solid pitcher, but I constantly see Hamels bashed on this site.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think Hamels sucks at all. I think he’ll bounce back (he’s only 25!) and be a solid #2 behind Lee if not better.
I’ll take Hamels in my team any day.
GravediggerHebner
12/2/2009-5:40pm at 5:40 pm (UTC -4)
I concur, there has been some notable Hamels bashing around here. I don’t think Kistics was doing it though.
I never bashed him for his performance, I have absolutely bashed him for off-the-field stuff, maybe that’s getting lumped in.
I was down on his performance last year, and I think so was everyone, but he’s still very young and even in a down year last year he still graded out in the context of WAR as an ace (in the top 20% of all SPs).
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
What legit power bat are you talking about? You don’t seem to like Holliday either. So what legit power bat is out there?
I really believe you can plug offensive holes with combination of 2nd tier guys like Cameron, Molina or LaRoche, Cameron or Dye, Molina… something like that. I don’t think pitching works like that. ESPECIALLY not in Citifield where pitching, good defense and speed would work better than HRs.
metro
12/2/2009-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
Gimma Uggla and Doumit via trade, sign Piniero and Sheets and sign one of Delgado, Johnson, LaRoche, Branyan to a 1 year deal, whichever one takes it gets it, sign Dotel
whataputz
12/2/2009-5:27pm at 5:27 pm (UTC -4)
Once again, explore the trade market. I’m not thrilled with the class of FA out there. But why not a Miguel Tejada if he will agree to play first and chone figgins to be pt in lf? Maybe trade for Carlos Lee, maybe trade for Cabrera or Gonzalez. Maybe re-sign Delgado. Try to see if Adam Dunn is available. Bengie Molina does have pop. Just again trowing names off the top of my head. I’d call every team in mlb and see what they want and who’s available before I spend 100 mil on Holliday. I’m not a gm, I don’t get paid to do this. But I’m sure some team would be willing to listen.
metro
12/2/2009-5:28pm at 5:28 pm (UTC -4)
Forget Lee, his own GM admitted he told him he won’t agree to go anywhere but the Rangers because of his ranching business (he has a full no-trade)
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
But what would it cost to get these guys? It’ll certainly take an arm and a leg AND would cost $$ on top of that.
Once again, my thought is that the Mets should not try to out slug other teams to win. They should try to get solid defense, speed and good pitching.
Btw, aren’t we sick of seeing guys playing of out position?
whataputz
12/2/2009-6:03pm at 6:03 pm (UTC -4)
I consider paying 100 mil for a guy giving up an arm and a leg just as much as i consider giving up a couple of prospects giving up an arm and a leg. Once again, I am just listing names from my head. I am not the GM, I am not payed to do this. But Lackey is no so good that i’d pay the money and risk a mediocre offense. Halliday is. Lackey is a good solid pitcher but IMO he is not so good to the point that i wouldn’t adress the lineup because he;s so much better than wolf peneiro sheets or bedard. The money for his numbers is utterly rediculous, when I can sign 2 or 3 “risks” for the equivalent. He’s a #2, not an ace. You don’t pay a true #2 that much money unless you are the Yankees. You pay an ace that money to fill the 2 spot, but not a good pitcher for ace money. Not when our team leader in hrs hit 12 last year and delgado is coming off the roster. Beltran might not be 100% and I couldn’t care how many hr’s reyes hits.
whataputz
12/2/2009-6:04pm at 6:04 pm (UTC -4)
or 75 mil..whatever he wants. Either way its roughly gonna be a good 16 mil+ a year, and thats absurd for a “good” pitcher.
metro
12/2/2009-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
Heyman said he thinks Molina will be a Met 2 years 12 “because Omar doesn’t have a proven overpaying even when he doesn’t have to”