Dec 02
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According to Jon Heyman who spoke on WFAN with Mike Francesa this afternoon, Doc Holliday will be traded by Spring training. He was very pessimistic whether the Mets would sign either Holliday or Lackey.
He also said that the Mets will move fast on Catcher Benjie Molina.
According to MLB.com. Milton Bradley might be on the move again, this time to the Tampa Rays for Pat Burrell.
MLBTradeRumors
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Matt Harvey's Next Two Starts Will Be... { Also, I am sure I... } – May 22, 9:20 PMMatt Harvey's Next Two Starts Will Be... { Completely missed today's game. Just... } – May 22, 9:16 PMMatt Harvey's Next Two Starts Will Be... { People still care about the... } – May 22, 8:54 PMMatt Harvey's Next Two Starts Will Be... { Well unfortunately challenge number 1... } – May 22, 6:39 PM
58 comments
fongy2
12/2/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry to be doom and gloom but I think Omar is gonna sign Molina,it
will be for 2yrs and upwards of 15mil
and it will be a disaster.
An already fat and slow(both understatements)Catcher who will be 36 half-way into next season whos
Average and already anemic OBP
are fading,who had more SBs against
him and a lower Pct of CS last yr
than ever.That despite the fact that
he had a very good Pitching staff which didn’t allow a ton of baserunners AND which played the majority of their gms against teams
in their division which weren’t exactly full of Rickey Hendersons.
He also has been such a liability on
the base paths that the one stat which
really sticks out is that hes only scored about a third of the time hes
been on base in his career which
included many yrs of being part of
some pretty darn good Angel teams.
Now if we were rebuilding and had a team of kid Pitchers,okay, maybe I could understand BUT even if he fixes
Ollie’s problems, this won’t go
well for us.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
On Metsblog right now, the top line says that Heyman believes we are interested in Pudge.
What Heyman says MEANS NOTHING.
Thank you.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
Your mouth to God’s ears my friend.
But it won’t shock me to check back later and find out we’ve signed BOTH Molina AND
Pudge.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Pudge AND Molina?
Maybe we will carry four catchers?
Omir Santos is about the same player offensively as Pudge right now.
And I do not want Molina either.
Santos/Thole would put up better numbers than either of those guys.
If Omar signs either, I will join you in disgust.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:39pm at 4:39 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks.
All these crazy rumors
are giving me the
Omar-horrors,…
again.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
Not to mention that he flat out refues to be walked. I remember when we went into SF and I think it was already June the guy literally had something in the ballpark of 3 walks.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Alright I just looked it up, he had a total of 13 walks this season. Still, he hit 20 hrs in a big time pitchers park, and especially out of the catcher position that is hard to ignore. I stand firm when i say that i would not mind the signing as long as its only 1 year or a very cheap 2nd year buyout.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
I think giving him 1+1 of 5-6M per year is reasonable and should be able to get him.
But if he’s asking price is north of $6M per year, Mets better walk away.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-4:39pm at 4:39 pm (UTC -4)
I really think that unless Thole is absolutely not what we saw last year, that a platoon of Santos and Thole would outproduce either of those guys.
Play Thole less than half the time, and in favorable situations, and if he bombs, send him down, and bring up Coste. If he does well, ease him in and play him more and more as the season goes on.
I mean, $2 mil for Cora is one thing, but 5 or 6 mil for Molina? Cannot do that.
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! Plus, theres a future with Santos/Thole.
36 year old Catchers don’t
improve and most of the time fall off
hard and fast.
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Does anyone recall the Mets running all over Molina in San Francisco this season as if he was the perfectly manicured turf at Belmont?
fongy2
12/2/2009-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah like I always say Wanny,maybe you can gamble with a 36y/o at another position…
Just not catchers.
I was hipped to this as a kid by an uncle and its one of the great truths of baseball.
After about 33 or so,Catchers start down hill and fast.
Including the great ones.Both at bat AND behind the plate.
Molina, with his body type and age has been on borrowed time.
Like I said,this could easily be a disaster.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
20 hrs 80 rbi in san fran…if thats decline, I’ll give him a year.
metro
12/2/2009-6:11pm at 6:11 pm (UTC -4)
As I said before
Yankees, Sox, TB, White Sox, Tigers, Angels, A’s, Rangers, Braves, Marlins, Phillies, Dodgers, Giants, Arizona, Padres, Cubs, Cardinals….. so outside of the Mariners I can’t think of one team with money that would give him any more than 3-4 million. So 2 years 12 is absolutely awful.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
depends on their actual budget. If signing molina means a lesser pitcher or no power outfielder, then you’re right, the upgrade is not worth the cost. But if we sign Bengie and still fill the holes than i’d be happy. I mean there’s got to be some reason Omar wants a catcher so badly. I know its fun to bash him, but give the man some credit, he usually gets what he wants.
whataputz
12/2/2009-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
O no stupid comment, i take this back, i can already see the responses. “Gets what he WANTS not NEEDS.”
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/2/2009-4:51pm at 4:51 pm (UTC -4)
Molina option will only work if the Mets choose a route of going 2nd tier OF as their offensive plug in. If the Mets sign Holliday/Bay, then Thole/Santos would work. But I don’t think Thole/Santos could contribute offensively as much as Molina would.
metro
12/2/2009-6:10pm at 6:10 pm (UTC -4)
Pitchers didn’t give glowing reviews of Thole’s receiving at the end of the year interviews, Jerry also wasn’t overly impressed with him behind the plate, very unlikely they would go that route.
metro
12/2/2009-6:08pm at 6:08 pm (UTC -4)
Heyman just told me he expects Molina to get 2 years 12 from the Mets
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:23pm at 6:23 pm (UTC -4)
Let me ask you a serious question, as I would like your opinion….if one looks at Molina’s numbers and Santos’, do you think signing Molina for that money would be anything other than insane?
prismo
12/2/2009-6:28pm at 6:28 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s my opinion…INSANITY!!!!!
No way Molina is worth $12mil more than Santos/Thole over a 2 year period. No f-ing way.
That being said, it wouldn’t shock me if Omar made that signing anyway.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:30pm at 6:30 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed….except for the last part–Omar wouldn’t do that, would he?
prismo
12/2/2009-6:39pm at 6:39 pm (UTC -4)
It’s all about perception with Omar, and signing a new catcher to a $10+MM contract is making a fairly big “splash”. Omar loves splashing around, even if he’s the only one in Molina’s bathtub.
prismo
12/2/2009-6:39pm at 6:39 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think he’ll do a 2/12 for him, but it just wouldn’t surprise me.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:43pm at 6:43 pm (UTC -4)
“Omar loves splashing around, even if he’s the only one in Molina’s bathtub.”
HAHA!! Now that’s a well-written joke; I love me some humor.
metro
12/2/2009-6:40pm at 6:40 pm (UTC -4)
Molina has 2 plus skills… plus power for a catcher (which will somewhat be negated by CitiField) and works well with pitchers. But he is also VERY VERY slow (even for a catcher) and no longer throws very well.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:45pm at 6:45 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that working well with/being respected by the pitchers is huge, especially if we wind up with Pelf/Maine/Ollie as 3-4-5.
I am out; nice having a civil debate. I will try to keep it that way.
metro
12/2/2009-6:59pm at 6:59 pm (UTC -4)
Same to you sorry about before.
metro
12/2/2009-6:08pm at 6:08 pm (UTC -4)
Pudge’s agent has a close relationship with Heyman, keep that in mind.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:17pm at 6:17 pm (UTC -4)
Which is PRECISELY why Heyman will spread any drivel to help drive Pudge’s price up!!!
metro
12/2/2009-6:23pm at 6:23 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, I’m not disputing that fact im amplifying it
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:29pm at 6:29 pm (UTC -4)
Oops, sorry man! I misread it.
And may I say I am glad we are largely in agreement on catchers apparently!
I agree Thole needs work behind the plate, but, and this is a big if, if Santos and Thole could give us similar offensive production in 2010 to what they did in 2009, in the possible 8 hole in the order, wouldn’t you say we should hope, for at least a year, that Thole can develop defensively so we can spend money elsewhere?
metro
12/2/2009-6:37pm at 6:37 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think Thole/Santos would be that bad offensively, I guess my issue would be how do we expect Thole’s defense to improve if he’s splitting time? Ideally he’d catch 100+ games at AAA and get into a rhythm catching and I also don’t especially trust Jerry to use him enough to help him improve on defense.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:41pm at 6:41 pm (UTC -4)
I cannot disagree that part of or a full year in AAA would benefit Thole (as it might have benefitted Murph). I guess I personally am laser-focused on pitching. I think that unless we get either Halladay or Lackey and one from the next group, as well as a serious 8th inning pen arm, we are probably in for trouble with or without change behind the plate.
Kingman 26
12/2/2009-6:37pm at 6:37 pm (UTC -4)
Metro–
Thank you for posting the VERY interesting Bernazard stuff on the other thread, and I COMPLETELY agree with you on the Mets’ minor league system’s mysterious inability to teach fundamentals.
metro
12/2/2009-6:46pm at 6:46 pm (UTC -4)
No problem but it’s a very odd phenomenon. Partially it’s due to rushing players… even Murphy had very few Mnl ab’s, the Mets need to let players play down there until they are ready. I’m not talking about when there is a SERIOUS need like 2009 but theres no reason to be rushing up partially ready flawed players. If you look at recent Mets history nearly EVERY player we promote is defensive challenged or base running challenged etc
wannybackstra
12/2/2009-7:27pm at 7:27 pm (UTC -4)
It seems like it’s been the organizational philosophy since Strawberry and Gooden raced through the minor league system and launched successful careers (in their cases they proved ready physically but not mentally or emotionally). Then, Wright and Reyes re-affirmed this philosphy (albeit with some Jose growing pains).
The problem with using these players as the model is that three of them are extraordinary talents and one of them combines superior talent with an undying work ethic. Not all players have the skills of these four.
These decisions should not be made as part of a formula. They should be made individually. Just because a guy hits well in the lower minors doesn’t mean he should be fast tracked to the majors. While a guy like Parnell might have the makeup to learn on the job (just an example, I haven’t seen anything to prove this), a guy like Martinez or Pelfrey may not. Just ask Gregg Jeffries.
When was the last time we had a guy like Ryan Howard or Chase Utley who had to pay their dues and wait for an opportunity while perfecting their skills?
Part of the problem might be people like us. Many of us follow the minor leagues closely and begin making noise about why F-Mart is not being brought up, etc. It places additional pressure on the front office to deliver Alex Escobar at age 22, Lastings Milledge at 21, Gregg Jeffries at 19, Jose Reyes at 20, etc. not to mention the young players rushed through the minors who never ultimately reach the majors.
If Wilmer Flores flourishes this season at St. Lucie (where he probably doesn’t even belong yet) will fans be clamoring to see him by his 19th birthday in 2011? Ruben Tejada hit .289 .351 .381 at age 19 in AA and will be at AAA this season where he will hopefully not hit 229 .293 .296 like he did in 2008. Even if he hits .289 again at AAA, his .381 SLG% trasnslates to something Rey Ordonezian in the majors but the Mets will feel compelled to bring him up despite the fact he’s still a boy and is still as strong as one.
fongy2
12/2/2009-7:45pm at 7:45 pm (UTC -4)
Saw Tejada live this season 5 times,
he IS STILL just a kid.
From 10feet away looks like
he 14.Very skilled both at the plate
and in the field but hes not close.
Also, while he
looks pretty slick @SS,hes no Rey Ordonez
who for all his faults was one of the 5best defensive
SS I’ve seen in 35+yrs.
fongy2
12/2/2009-7:09pm at 7:09 pm (UTC -4)
Metro, On Molina, If you have 5mins.
take a look at the careers of the
really good Catchers of the past 30
or so years. Again, even the best of
them were pretty much themselves
until b/t 32&34, then suddenly they
show up and its like someone else
was in their uniforms. Off the top of
my head Carlton Fisk is the only exception and he was a physical freak
of nature. In my lifetime,I’d say the
best Catchers I ever saw were Munson,
Parrish,Carter,Bench,Piazza,Santiago,
Alomar,Pena,Varitek&Rodriguez.
Again, thats top ten off the top of my head and not in order.
Now, none of these guys were all-star
type players after 34or35 and some
were close to done at 32/33.
Molina has been real good the past decade but hes not in the class of
most of the above.He also isn’t the
physical athlete any of the above were. Don’t you think its alot more likely he goes something like .260/.265-10/15HRs-60/65RBIs
than repeat this past yr….while
playing for a contract.
Plus, he’s clearly not the defensive Catcher he was 2/3 yrs ago.
Is that gonna improve with age?
How much,if at all is this an improvement over what we got from
Santos/Thole the secomd half of last season? You really want to give this guy 5,6 or 8 mil for a yr or two?
whataputz
12/2/2009-8:10pm at 8:10 pm (UTC -4)
Thole isn’t ready to be handed significant playing time, and I don’t think this guy is going to ever be a legitimate starting catcher. Santos played great last year, but it was for an eliminated team and he played absolutely terrible at times. With this combo your taking a huge risk. I’m not the biggest molina fan, he doesn’t walk, and is beyond slow, but he did just hit 20 hrs in a pitchers park. I don’t get why he’s our first target, I’d be much more inclined to just sit and see if anyone wants him, which I’m not even sure is true. I just don’t get why we’re just ready to hand him 6 mil tomorrow. But for 1 year…as long as it doesn’t interfere with signing other players, go for it. But I see the point that theres no need to commit 6 mil at catcher when we have 2 legitimate starting pitchers and need an outfielder and a first basemen. I just don’ see why everyone thinks this signing would be dooms day. Bat him 6th or 7th, and let him try to drive in some runs. Although you gotta bat him in front of Francour, because if he isn’t protected, idk why a pitcher would ever throw him a strike.
fongy2
12/2/2009-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
Its hard for me to understand how the same fans ready to anoint FMart don’t think Thole
can even be a platoon Catcher
in 2010 getting 200/250 ABs.
fongy2
12/2/2009-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
you have any idea how few runs we’d get out of the bottom of line-up with Molina clogging things up?
whataputz
12/2/2009-8:52pm at 8:52 pm (UTC -4)
First off, when did I ever say anything about FMart. I am the president of the “We screwed the pootch by not trading him earlier” fan club. I see absolutely no reason why he is still here, and if we traded him in 07 (or 06, one of those years) we could have gotten Soriano or another bat and could have won the world series. With that said, there’s a reason why Santos was a rookie last year. You’ve seen how bad he can be at times. I feel like going into the season with him as our catcher will certainly lead to his full exposure. I like the guy, and love his attitude, and think he’s a timely hitter and good back-up, but not a starter. Molina is one of very few talented offensive catchers. Yeah hes incredibly slow, but teams live with slow players, and I don’t see many catchers swiping 20 bags. I’d rather be more concerned about the 8 hitter not being able to drive him in on a double, than having a catcher not able to get guys from the top of the order home.
whataputz
12/2/2009-8:54pm at 8:54 pm (UTC -4)
And I’m quite confident we have the worst hitting pitchers in the game, based on 0 facts, but merely watching games. Understand that if they sign Molina and go the holliday route, you’re talking a great line-up from 1-8.
fongy2
12/2/2009-9:14pm at 9:14 pm (UTC -4)
No I didn’t mean you,or just you.
Still with Thole,
its seems that having progressed well through the system,been the FSL AllStarCatcher and Defensive Catcher of the yr in’08,then put on the AllProspect team out of the ASLthen a AA AllStar
Catcher while being solid behind the plate AND fighting for a Batting Title THEN coming up and not only NOT embarassing himself behind the plate
BUT hitting over .300 in a small sample THEN going to winter ball and hitting almost .400 with an
almost 1100 OPS,it
would seem to me that THIS GUY is a serious prospect.Further,I saw the guy in
AA and he WAS the best player
on his team which as we know contained a few other good prospects.Hes 23 NOT
19….
So,again,if he comes to spring
further improved,why would we want to spend millions on any Catcher not named Joe Mauer?
stickguy
12/2/2009-10:17pm at 10:17 pm (UTC -4)
man, this could be a long, long off season around here.
I may have to go back to my vow of going into hibernation until ST starts! Nah, too much fun ragging on Omar.
anyway, my take on on the news du jour:
- Stay away from Bengie, but I fear that Omar has him as priority #1, and will overpay for his man. Maybe he is buying by the pound?
for catcher in general, I do like the idea of a 1 year stop gap, to allow the team to start Thole in AAA if he needs a bit more development. Key has to be, if he is ready, santos or the new guy can get moved out. But, 2 years big money for Bengie? that is Castillo level entrenched.
If they can get someone cheaper with likely equiv. production (olivo, navvarro, whoever), and short term, that gives them coverage and protection for thole to develop.
- damned if I know what they are thinking about the pitching, but blowing huge $$ on Lackey still scares me. a lowe deal? well, that isnt so bad.
stickguy
12/2/2009-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
general thoughts:
for 1 thing, I don’t think the team is as bad off as some others do (asusming, of course, the improtant guys have rebound years with normal health. Heck, other than Delgado, it is basically the same team that was picked by many before the season to be a WS contender, and was also 1/2 game or so out of 1st 1/3 of the way into the season.
so yeah, they have holes to fill (as most teams do every year), but they aren’t insurmountable. A couple of good, intelligent moves, and yeah, they are certainly in the mix for at least a WC berth. I just don’t think that the Mets are incapable of having a year at least in the range of 2007 or 2008, + 2 more wins!
I also dont think that the rockies, cards, brewers, braves, etc. are amazing teams that they just can’t hope to keep up with.
my big worry? It is still the same rocket scientists putting the plan together (whether Omar or Jeffy, who knows). And if they sign Molina for 2/12+, then I know to not hold out hope!
I still vote for a middle ground tide over off season. Get some ST vets to upgrade, but hold onto the top level of the farm for 1 more year.
I also like the Philips to the mets idea. Perfect player for them to add.
If the Mets do add something like Olivo or navallo, harang, philips, wolf, sheets and cameron (while subtracting Castillo somehow), I dont think the budget is busted, and they have a much better talent level, and still will have a good bunch of upper level prospects.
stickguy
12/2/2009-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
So, what about passing on Molina and getting Rodriguez instead?
say its 1 year 2 mill for Ivan. Rather do that than 2/12+ for Molina?
Man, I think they call the wrong guy Pudge!
saltygary
12/2/2009-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Keith Law @ ESPN had some good insight on the Wagner deal:
The Atlanta Braves needed bullpen help and they signed one of the best relievers available in Billy Wagner.
But the price is too high, and Wagner isn’t good or reliable enough right now to merit giving up a first-round draft pick.
Wagner has thrown just 15 innings since Tommy John surgery, and threw on back-to-back days exactly once in 2009, in his final two appearances of the regular season. He’ll pitch at 38 in 2010, and while he still has good velocity and showed he can miss bats (even in the majors’ best division) last year, all of these risk factors should have driven his price down to a figure lower than what he’s been guaranteed, especially since none of last winter’s major reliever signings — Francisco Rodriguez, Kerry Wood, Brian Fuentes, or Brad Lidge — is above water right now.
If Wagner stays healthy for 2010, he’ll earn his $7 million and probably then some, maybe even enough to cover the lost value of the draft pick. That’s a best-case scenario; it’s more likely that Wagner either won’t stay healthy for the entire year or that Atlanta will have to manage his workload down to keep him on the field and effective. Big winners here? The Red Sox, who traded two non-prospects to the Mets for 14 innings of Wagner, a sandwich pick, and another pick that right now would be No. 20 overall.
saltygary
12/2/2009-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
Where I am still shocked on this deal is the money Atlanta paid. Atlanta has generally showed good restraint on cost especially that the aren’t controlled by Turner anymore.
But I guess they paid a lot for Lowe who is technically a .500 pitcher.
Just seems like a hell of a lot for a closer especially when there are so many options out there even within their own org.
whataputz
12/2/2009-11:24pm at 11:24 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah that and the Schneider deal, I will never even begin to fathom the logic. There is a solid crop of relievers out there, and I just can’t believe ATL would just give this guy 7 mil on December first! And lose two picks! And Schneider, 2 years? 2 years! Surely this is a joke.
jaydh
12/2/2009-11:08pm at 11:08 pm (UTC -4)
“Big winners here? The Red Sox, who traded two non-prospects to the Mets for 14 innings of Wagner, a sandwich pick, and another pick that right now would be No. 20 overall.”
God I hate omar….he should have been fired long ago.
whataputz
12/2/2009-11:30pm at 11:30 pm (UTC -4)
First off, at the time I didn’t mind the move. It was a risk holding onto him, plus if he was a Met do you really think they would have made this move? The thing that drives me nuts and makes this deal so terrible in the end is the fact that we didn’t get Carter until after the season. So stupid! How could Omar let this happen? I’m not even that bothered by the arbitration and the picks, it’s just the fact that we traded for 2 guys that might not ever be on our roster past spring training. Sure this carter guy has some potential. But a couple of extremely important months went by that he could have been playing in the bigs that went to waste. Think about it! That di** Yankees move probably ruined this guys career.
trs86
12/3/2009-8:15am at 8:15 am (UTC -4)
“How could Omar let this happen?”
Explain to me how Omar could have prevented Carter from being claimed?
Kingman 26
12/3/2009-8:48am at 8:48 am (UTC -4)
No he shouldn’t have.
People should have stopped making nonsense comments like this long ago.
jaydh
12/3/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
I guess you are in love with medocrity and a lack of foresight.
jaydh
12/3/2009-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
mediocrity*
trs86
12/3/2009-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Nope I don’t think either of us want Omar at this point. But looking at his track record and comparing it to other GM’s does not show that Omar should have been fired a long time ago. What it does show is that the Mets including Omar have been unable to get the job done and changes should and will be made if they don’t this season.