Dec 14
According to several tweets, Roy Halladay and his agent are rumored to be in Philly right now. Also Ken Rosenthal is talking up a possible 3 way deal which you can read here
-So…anybody know any good spots to jump off of the Brooklyn Bridge? After watching my Gmen get beat by the Eagles last night and now this, im all Phillied out =/
UPDATE
According to Jon Heyman, the 3 way deal is gaining momentum. Mariners defiantly 3rd team
MLBTradeRumors
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159 comments
mrose
12/14/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
is this bad? yes… but if you read about the possible three way deal, they’d be giving up Lee to get Halladay.. so its an upgprade, but i’ll take that over them having Halladay AND Lee
dirtysanchez
12/14/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
lol anyday, the thing that worries me is they dont HAVE to trade Lee if they dont want to
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I don’t understand the move. Why give up Lee? It’s a slight upgrade, but he will cost under $9M. That’s a real bargain.
With Halladay, Lee, and Hamels… You can pretty much write the WS spot for the f-in Phillies. You can easily earn $9M from going to WS. I don’t understand why they would trade Lee.
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Because Roy Halliday has been making a living carving up the best division in the game, and is the pitcher right now. He consistently goes 8 innings or more and is now coming into a much weaker division. He’s that much better than Lee.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, but my point is why not keep Lee at the same time? That’s a guaranteed WS spot. Sure it’s $9M they have to pay, but don’t you think you’d make up for $9M if they go to WS 3 years in a row AND win 2 of them?
If the Phillies had Halladay AND Lee in 2009, they would’ve beat the Yankees, IMO.
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
I’m going to assume that this was a trade that wasn’t getting done unless lee was involved.
mattsmith
12/14/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
Because if they don’t trade Lee, they get nothing for him in 2010, when he signs with Yankees.
Lee was/is the perfect trade bait. It might allow the Phillies to keep their young studs, notably Kyle Drabek.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
mother f*!@#!@#$%$%$#
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Makes some sense for the Phils to add him (and bust the payroll open). They are getting old, and only really have a couple more years with their core (age and contract leangth). So this would truly be a going for it all in 2010 move, and it guarantees that Lee walks at the end of the year.
And there is nothing wrong with being the WC team in the playoffs!
Can’t really see the logic of trading off Lee though. It pretty much seems like a couple of lateral moves, and doesn’t really make them much better. But, I’m not their GM either!
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. If they win WS twice in 3 years, Phillies will be in discussions of a dynasty. AND they’ll be in contention for at least 2-3 years IF Halladay signs a long term contract.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
They are most definitely not getting old.
And with the way they have done absolutely everything right the last 3+ years—and won a pennant with a horrible bullpen in 2009—they should be very, very good for another 4–5 years easy, unless their core players lose their desire, which seems very, very doubtful.
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
well, what do you define as Old?
in 2010, every position player will be 20+ except for Vicky at 29. Palanco and Ibanez are older than any met (other than Molina!)
They also only have Howard for 2 more years, when his deal expires.
Rollins is a FA after 2010 I believe, and Utley seems to be a prime candidate to age fast.
so that was my basis for calling them an older team (not quite yankee old maybe) with a relatively short domination window with the current crew.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with Kingman here. Phillies have good 3-4 years in them.
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
people said that about the mets in 2006 too.
things can change, and quickly.
assuming no catastrophic injury years, the next 2 would be their prime window. Team could and likely will be very different after 2011, and any core guys remaining (other than hamels if he is) will be well into their mid-30s (or more, see Palanco). Past prime in the post-steroid era.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2009-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm….and the only ‘rumor’ I can find on the Mets making moves today is a minor league contract to Escobar.
I’m really trying to keep the faith but that god awful 2009 season seems to be carrying over to this off season – so far….
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
Omar and the Mets organization will take some heat. Even if they sign Bay.
khmustache
12/14/2009-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
yeah, but how many catchers do they have?
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
If there was ever a time to start panicking, now might be a good time.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
So much for playing the market.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
Wow… tough day for us. Lackey signs with the RedSox (Heyman reports) and Halladay to Phillies.
What next. Holliday to the Mets for $250M???
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
Or better.. Pineiro to the Mets for 4/65.
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
what do you mean? We offered Escober a minor league deal.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
Michael Kay is saying that Lee maybe traded to Mariners for young talents.
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
good.
logically, Halladay will cost more in talent than what Lee will bring back. Plus he will earn a lot more $$ this year (alomst 7mill) than Lee.
So, you figure the Phils essentially package the Seattle talent + some of their own for Halladay.
net result, the phils trade Lee + some prospects for Halladay, and increase payroll (which was supposedly already about maxed out) at the same time.
lee vs. Halladay? Almost a wash.
so it almost seems that the Phils at best have a marginal improvement, but less flexibility (prospects and payroll) to make any other moves.
So are they really going to be that much better?
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
I agree…this is SO much better than them having both.
They get older, have a larger payroll, and give up prospects.
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Alright, essentially this is it. This is Omars last chance, and he has now officially been backed into a corner. Love him or hate him, this is a very big day for Omar. People always say “what if”, “when push comes to shove”, well the stuff has officially hit the fan, so now judgment day is upon us. Time to find out if Omar has the goods.
metfreak
12/14/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
O boy if this is true then lets just sell Trade them all really now let me hear people defend Omar go ahead tell me how he is still going to make a big push for a real number 2 or a big bat
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
chill dude.
even if you want to assign the Phils an automatic 120 wins and the NL east title, there is still the WC as a way to get into the playoffs.
and the mets easily can be as good as the 2nd best team in each of the 3 divisions.
khmustache
12/14/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
except for last year… and the year before that… oh, and the year before that…
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
COME ON!!
It is Dec 14th!
We can still easily wind up with Bay, Sheets, Gonzalez, Kelly Johnson and more.
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
alright but now it’s actually happened. Lackey is off the market, halladay is off the trade market, wolf is gone (the only reason I mention him is because his contract symbolically punched omar minaya bellow the belt. I’m sure there was around a 50/50 split with lackey, but now that he is gone, the option is gone. We all knew he was going to get signed eventually but now that it has happened, and with the halladay news, things are not looking to great at the moment is all.
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
well, look at the bright side. He can’t sign Ollie again, can he?
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
Sure he could…he could offer him an extension any day now….
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, but you know what, Lackey is not an ace. Halladay would have been nice but would cost a fortune in money and prospects.
Now, we go to plan B, which hopefully includes Jason Bay.
If not, Mike Cameron would be a fine 1-2 year solution. Bengie Molina will hit well for a catcher, and in all likelihood greatly improve the pitchers we have.
And a gamble on Sheets or Bedard could work out well.
And we might trade for Derek Lowe. And we could eventually get Pineiro for a very reasonable price, and maybe he really has finally arrived at his potential.
Until these eventualities are all exhausted, I must respectfully say that I am going to combat and fight all whining, and it is my right to do so!
OMAR I STILL TRUST YOU BUDDY–GET IT DONE AND QUIET THE NAYSAYERS!!!
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve said from the start that I wasn’t huge on Lackey, nor am I huge on holliday or Bay at those prices, but now that this has actually unfolded, it doesn’t feel to good to be a Mets fan right now. Even if Bay signed in 20 minutes, I’d still feel like we’re a long ways from going anywhere.
metsgirl31
12/14/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for the positivity…needed that.
After reading the comments on here I realize just how much the 2009 season did a number on Mets fans.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
You are most welcome!
Keep the faith!
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
sorry Kong, not allowed to be positive any more. The season is over, Omar blew it, the Mets franchise is folding, and they won’t win a game again until 2017, after 6 straight Philly WS victories.
I read it all on the internet. It has to be true.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
+ 189
I am with you my friend….even though I afraid the Phils will continue to be good, we will be infinitely better in 2010 by default.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
HAHAHA !!
Can I get them winning lottery tickets for tonight on the internet too?
metsfan4decades
12/14/2009-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
I’m with Kingman on this. I’m not jumping off the ledge yet.
If Philly does do this trade, then turn around and trades Lee, they’ve got a slight upgrade, less prospects, very possibly more money in an almost maxed out payroll. Looks like they just went all in.
Anything can happen yet.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you!
Well, both women we have on here agree with me, so therefore I retire for the day 100% sure that my perspective is the right one!
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah and so much for the “We’re going to be VERY aggressive this offseason. We’re going to explore FA and Trade market very hard”.
Offering a minor-league contract to Kelvim Escobar while Lackey and Halladay are gone.
VERY F-IN AGGRESSIVE!!!
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
And just imagine the things you could write if these events had even the remotest connection….
whataputz
12/14/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Something tells me Jason Bay is smiling right now.
oleosmirf
12/14/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Manny anyone?
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
Thank all things holy and not holy, he is SIGNED for ANOTHER YEAR with the DODGERS.
MANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNYMANNY
COUPONSCOUPONSCOUPONSCOUPONSCOUPONSCOUPONSCOUPONSCOUPONS
oleosmirf
12/14/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t wait for the press conference where Omar tries to sell Joel Piniero as an ace…
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/14/2009-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
LOL. Tomorrow we’ll see a headline new “Joel Pineiro signs with the Mets 4 years $65MM”
dirtysanchez
12/14/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
lol more like Cubs sign Pinero as they are in on him right now
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I think I might have to take a vacation from any site that has comments from Met “fans”.
If this thread is any indication, it is going to be way to ridiculous, idiotic, and downright nasty to slog through.
maybe I will check back in the spring to see what the team actually looks like.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
+ Infinity
dirtysanchez
12/14/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
hahaha, i hear ya stick but you gotta understand the frustration…
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
look at the bright side. At least Fongy is going to be clapping his hands in Glee!
OK, now I really am ducking and running for cover.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
He is a seasoned investigator…he will find you….
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Oh shoot, I forgot that I got outted the other day. How hard wil it be for him to find Eddie C?
metfreak
12/14/2009-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
It done the fat man just mentioned it Lee to Seattle, Halladay to Phils
stickguy
12/14/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
can’t wait to see all of the names involved. seems a little odd, but certainly better than them having Lee AND Halladay!
metfreak
12/14/2009-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
I understand that its a little better then having Lee and Halladay but how can anybody think that the Phillies are not going to repeat again .O yeah I get it its only Dec Omar knows what he is doing … I have a nice bridge for sale too just needs a new coat of paint
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, let’s go Mariners!
How sweet will it be to see them take care of the Red Sox and the Yanks in the ALDS and ALCS next year?
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Given the way Lee pitched for Philly, I’m not really sure how much better they can get by swapping Halladay in and Lee out, especially considering the transaction costs, i.e. Halladay’s higher salary and the prospects.
trs86
12/14/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
To me this just evens out. Cost more cash and prospects and you get a guy who is proven but may not be THAT much better than what you had.
I know a lot of Mets fans will be panicing and cursing why didn’t Omar…. Fact is we did not have Lee to trade to get prospects and obviously Toronto did not want ours or Halladay did not want to be here.
Mets fans will also panic because Lackey signed for 5/85 which is about what I thought he would. But how much more would we have had to pay? 6/100+ 5/95+? Again, while I wanted Lackey I trust Omar did all he was comfortable doing. Last time that scenerio played out was Zito.
The Mets will have a ton of options now and I expect them to get Bay and 2 pitchers. Interesting thing is now how much pressure the Angels will have to do something now as well. I expect them to back into the Holliday war.
If nothing else should be an exciting rest of the off-season.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
Bay or Holliday and 2 pitchers will be happenin’.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Agree (look out for the lightning!).
5/85 for Lackey is about what I was comfortable with and probably about what I had predicted for him (I think I used Burnett’s contract exaclty but in Anaheim).
The Phillies may be a little better than yesterday but it will cost them more and hurt their farm system somewhat.
Now the Mets need to do something like Bay, Meche, Sheets, Calero and Glaus/Atkins/Garko.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
“Now the Mets need to do something like Bay, Meche, Sheets, Calero and Glaus/Atkins/Garko.”
I think we will see something very much like this….
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
TRS:
Not sure if you saw earlier but I had posted Meche’s interleague stats: From memory he was 14-6 3.87 ERA in 25 starts, holding hitters to a .300 OBP and .380 SLG with a 2 to 1 K to BB.
I think he’d be a nice pickup.
whataputz
12/14/2009-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
I’m assuming theres a reason why they made the deal. I mean if you guys are smart enough to understand lee and halladay are almost equals (not saying I agree with this or disagreeing) how are the phillies not? There must be some logic here. Maybe Lee wasn’t going to sign an extention? Remember that this isn’t the Mets here. When the Phillies make moves (except for the time the entire Phillies front office decided to try Meth Amphetamines and came up with Schneider)there is logic involved.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
It could be that Halladay is agreeing to a shorter term than Lee expressed interest in doing.
Halladay is better than Lee for sure. But by how much and for how long?
Either way, we knew Philly was going to have a shut down ace (and potentially a second in Hamels). It makes little difference if it is Lee or Halladay.
Santana will have to be at his best that day regardless of which one it is.
whataputz
12/14/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
I just think that Halladay is at a higher level than Lee (if possible). Seriosuly, with that line-up, and in the NL you’re talking about more than 20 wins..and I’m not talking 21.
stickguy
12/14/2009-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
well, at least there are a couple of us (kong, too) that are trying to keep some perspective and act as a “voive of reason”.
One other random thought I had for all the “phils are unstoppable” crowd: who does that sound like? The Yankees, right?
so of course, the Mets being in the same divison means they have no chance at the post season.
except the team in the AL that makes it every year as the WC is also in the AL east. They also happen to have as many WS titles this decade as the Yankees and Phillies combined.
the world has not ended. Any team going into a long term marriage with a ## YO Sp with a ton of miles on his arm is taking a risk after all.
metfreak
12/14/2009-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah your right what is wrong with the large percentage of Met fans that thinks this is a bad day to be a Met fan I mean Omar got us Cora and Blanco what else could we ask for 2010 hear we come
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
“HEAR we come??”
metfreak
12/14/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
LOL you know what I meant
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
I know…just trying to have fun with the situation….
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
“YOUR right?”
Bad day for spelling.
whataputz
12/14/2009-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
With all that said, we have this conversation every year! Every offseason, people start complaining, and then people mock them. How have the past seasons gone? Who is Omar getting that is putting us past the Phillies (we will have to beat them to get into the world series) and past the Yankees or Red Sox? Who is out there still that is going to turn us into favorites? I hate to say it, but after todays events, things are not looking too great. They’re just not. I don’t see how you can walk away after today and still be positive. Now, there’s different levels of negativity. I’m not saying throw in the towel, season over. But I am saying that moves now need to be made to salvage the season. And while Halliday isn’t a huge upgrade over Lee, we are now definately not getting hi (even if it was a .001% chance). I just don’t see how any of you can not be alarmed.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Speaking for myself, I just don’t like whiny negativity.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but everyone also has a right to respond to opinions they disagree with.
I love the Mets, and I was more devastated than Glavine two years ago, but the Mets give me joy and pleasure; they don’t make me morose and whiny.
I want to see them win, I wish we did trade for Halladay and sign Lackey, but there are more options left.
I just think that–with Omar’s record of bagging big game almost every year–that it is childish and absolutely ridiculous to act like the damn sky is falling on Dec. 14th.
CaseStreet
12/14/2009-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
hey everyone, excuse me while I go cry in the corner for a minute…
okay, so it’ll be the Mets, Yanks and Angels for Bay and Holliday, and Cameron to a lesser extent.
Guess we’re guaranteed to pick up Piniero and one of the post-injury guys.
I’m actually okay with not spending big money on long contracts and hope the trade deadline proves to be a better market.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for coming aboard…a few of us still have hope for 2010 on Dec 14, 2009.
And how bout them Mariners!
CaseStreet
12/14/2009-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
They have a pretty smart crew over there. So do the Red Sox.
As for the Mets, I’m scratching my brain to figure out who we can get to complement Santana.
We need that 1-2 punch.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
At this point, we have to consider going for Sheets.
If healthy, he and Johan would make an excellent 1–2 punch.
Of course, that’s a big if.
fongy2
12/14/2009-4:48pm at 4:48 pm (UTC -4)
Why waste the money?
Didn’t I read that Omar already offered a contract to one guy whos arm is hanging off today?
Go after non-tenders like Garko.
And Omar BETTER make sure now that he signs Bay b/c if not we’re gonna get shut out here.
stickguy
12/14/2009-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
shut out? You men there are only 4 guys available this entire off season, and if we don’t get any, the Mets will return the exact same team?
Dang, if I had only known….
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I would think it would be a low guarantee with incentives.
The reason you are willing to “waste” the money is the high reward if he proves healthy.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Seattle’s acquisition of Lee, the Sox with Lackey and the Angels and Matsui might be pushing Bay into a corner with the Mets.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
BINGO!
And if Bay signs elsewhere, and before Holliday, it will put Boras and Holliday in an even smaller corner.
whataputz
12/14/2009-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
for the yankees to snag him.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
+1
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
No offense but I’d rather be in a corner with Lackey or Halladay.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-5:14pm at 5:14 pm (UTC -4)
Well if we’re talking personal preferences, I’d rather be in a corner with Heather Locklear or Sofia Vergara.
But it is clear that Bay is the Mets first priority right now (assuming the truth of the rumors of the offer made).
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:37pm at 5:37 pm (UTC -4)
You’re right. I just disagree with their priority.
Heather Locklear, huh? You a TJ Hooker fan?
dirtysanchez
12/14/2009-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
ok well this isnt that bad if lee is on his way out. Just the same situation as before yet with the best pitcher in baseball…no biggie
asod75
12/14/2009-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
First the Giants’ defense goes out and lays a gigantic egg against the Eagles (Sheridan should have been fired immediately) and now this. Although getting rid of Lee sort of makes this a lateral move, but now i bet the Phils go get an innings eater like Marquis or Pinero to help offset the loss of Lee. Bay, Molina and a scrub pitcher doesn’t make the Mets all that much better……
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
Doesn’t Halladay offset the loss of Lee (and probably more)?
I don’t see why they would need to acquire a second pitcher specifically because they’ve traded Lee. They may need an innings eater regardless of whether they trade Lee for Halladay.
asod75
12/14/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
Regardless, Bay, Molina and a scrub pitcher won’t get it done for the Mets.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:17pm at 5:17 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! I was wondering about that post myself.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:04pm at 5:04 pm (UTC -4)
No Stick, I mean shut out in terms
of high-end All-Star type players
who’d positively impact us. We can
sign all the run-of-the-mill role
players we want but that ain’t gonna
change the team significantly.
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:04pm at 5:04 pm (UTC -4)
No reason for bridges or ledges, it’s just a game.
I am very interested to see what path Omar takes now. His job is just as much on the line as it was 2 months ago. Which way will he go?
The ‘easy’ way (just spend money) has been pulled out from under him, he can’t possibly sign 2 of the big three unless he gets Bay and Holliday which makes little sense.
So the other options for Omar are?
Sign Bay, Molina or Torrealba and 1 Marquis or Pineiro?
Same as above, plus Sheets?
Same as above, but instead of Marquis or Pineiro trade for 1 of the allegedly available SPs ala Meche or Harang?
Sign Molina or Torrealba and rough it for a year with what you’ve got (and certainly lose your job)?
Sign no one of particular significance and trade one of Wright/Reyes/Beltran for prospects to rebuild the farm (and certainly not be around to see the fruits)?
Like TRS often says, the options are virtually endless. I look forward to seeing what permutation Omar chooses.
And I’d be lying if I didn’t say that today (reserve the right to change my mind) I’m leaning toward the rebuild option, not that that should imply some overt negativity. Simply looking ahead to a potentially younger, cheaper core to build around for a huge run in the 2012-2017 range and to make the “tens” the decade of the Mets.
whataputz
12/14/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
teams that have johan santana, carlos beltran, david wright, jose reyes, jeff francour, fransisco rodriguez, and a ton of money should not be looking to re-build.
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:13pm at 5:13 pm (UTC -4)
Apparently they don’t have a ton of money or one each of Lackey/Halladay and Bay/Holliday would already be here.
asod75
12/14/2009-5:16pm at 5:16 pm (UTC -4)
Then I wish they’d stop saying things like “we’ve got no budget constraints” and “we’ll continue to have one of the highest payrolls” because it seems like they’re bs’ing the fans big time.
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
Same as with the “20% discount across the board” on tickets.
To be fair to them though I do believe saying “we have no budget constraints” and staying under the luxury tax threshold are compatible.
The mere phrase “budget constraints” implies the existence of a budget and I’ve assumed that refers to the tax threshold and the way they’ve dealt with it recently, to approach but not meet or exceed it.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
What makes you assume Heb,
that his job is on the line
at all??
And take a second and read back some of the names you mentioned…Molina,Torrealba,
Marquis,Piniero,Sheets,Harang
even Meche…These players help the Mets become a contender again, How ??
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
I didn’t say anything about becoming a contender again. My personal and publicly stated preference of how to do that has been consistently to get one of Lackey or Halladay and improve the defense. Those pitching ships have sailed. I still think they can and should improve the defense, but I also have stated I don’t see Molina and Bay (and Castillo still here) doing that. Just throwing ideas out there of what I think he might do, because all my previous ones are now irrelevant.
I know other people feel strongly that it can be done otherwise, and I have no choice now but to hope I was wrong and they are right.
I believe his job is on the line because Jeff Wilpon said it was. Why would he lie to me about something like that?
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
You’re kidding….
Right, about that last paragraph??
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, your investigative instincts are as sharp as ever.
asod75
12/14/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
None of those options is all that attractive to me. Omar losing his job might be the greatest option….
asod75
12/14/2009-5:14pm at 5:14 pm (UTC -4)
If those are the options they’re left with, why not sign Bay, Molina, Marquis and Aroldis Chapman. The team would be competitive (not good enough to make the playoffs) but a move of Chapman would help the farm system and possibly allow them to put together a package for Adrian Gonzalez. Just a thought.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, signing any more Ben Sheets’
of the world puts us right back into
hope and prayer! Why waste the time??
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
The idea is not to sign only Sheets. The idea is to sign Sheets as a “bonus” option for the rotation. In other words, you go into the season with a full rotation of Santana, Meche, Pelfrey, Maine and Perez (for example) and hope Sheets is healthy enough to be a difference maker.
It’s no different than what the Sox did last year with Penny and Saito. Saito worked, Penny did for a while.
The Cards took a chance on Chris Carpenter several years ago in the same way. Wouldn’t you like to have Chris Carpenter now?
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
Ben Sheets is not Chris Carpenter and
again isn’t Omar going after one injured,questionable
starter already in
Escobar?
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
You increase your odds of success if you have more than one, but with Escobar from everything I’ve read he will be a reliever.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:30pm at 5:30 pm (UTC -4)
Again, we haven’t been through these type things before?
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:33pm at 5:33 pm (UTC -4)
Not with someone who when healthy is nearly as good as Sheets, at least not that I can recall.
I’d absolutely welcome Sheets. To me with Halladay and Lackey no longer options, Sheets offers the best chance for a front end of the rotation guy to pair with Johan and compete with Hamels/Halladay, Vazquez/Hanson, Johnson/Nolasco.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
The report is that Escobar was offered a minor league contract and that his agent has said he would likely be a reliever.
Sheets is an ace caliber pitcher.
Before Carpenter was a Cardinal he was nothing.
Your personal feelings about Sheets are shining through if you do not at least feel he is quality pitcher.
Again, the plan I am advocating is that you sign/trade for a reliable rotation addition and then add Sheets. This way you are not relying upon him to be healthy.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Whos the reliable starter?Marquis? And Ben Sheets
hasn’t had injury problems his entire career?
Like I said,a
waste of time
and right now with our
core it wouldn’t seem like thats something we can afford.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
Also, you thought last year the Mets were at least good enough to contend for a postseason spot. This team is not all that different from that team once the injured players return.
There’s no reason this team can’t compete with some tweaks and better health.
In my opinion, those tweaks need to be in the rotation more than anywhere else, however.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
You’re wrong about that my friend. I was
one of the few voices
which thought having Murphy and Church in the corners would ruin
our season and thought
and stated, often that
if everything goes well, we’d win 85-87 games and compete for
the Wildcard.
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-5:34pm at 5:34 pm (UTC -4)
To me your last sentence and Wanny’s first sentence are the same thing.
whataputz
12/14/2009-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
cough cough look into chapman..cough cough.
CaseStreet
12/14/2009-5:15pm at 5:15 pm (UTC -4)
So, Holliday, Sheets or Bedard, and Garland or Marquis.
gipperpdx
12/14/2009-7:18pm at 7:18 pm (UTC -4)
= 4th place.
manicmcreynolds
12/14/2009-5:19pm at 5:19 pm (UTC -4)
So the Phils changed aces. Not a big deal for the Mets. The Phils still have a #2 whom the Mets hit well (Hamels).
I’d fret if I were an Angels fan. Felix & Lee back to back, Figgins gone. Any chance they can still bid on Lackey, or does the physical mean John has accepted Boston’s money offer?
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you.
Please post more often.
whataputz
12/14/2009-5:35pm at 5:35 pm (UTC -4)
Roy Halliday is better than Cliff Lee. Fine so they only upgraded slightly..how have we upgraded? Philly was significantly better than us before they even acquired Lee in the first place! They didn’t have Lee for most of the season and were still the team to beat. They won a world series will Hamels as the ace. So they’ve added Holliday and Hamels could be much better than last season. We lost Delgado, have 2 outfielders, 1 ace coming off an injury, 1 mediocre pitcher, a whole bunch of ?’s a bad 1b, who knows how Castillo will be, pretty bad catchers though many of them, reyes coming off an injury, beltran off an injury, and who knows what Wright will be, and if Frenchy will be good. The Phillies have the best NL line-up and now have the best pitcher in baseball to go with a pretty solid staff. The best fa pitcher is gone. If you are optimistic at this point, I ask you to please give me a hit or two of whatever you are smoking.
whataputz
12/14/2009-5:37pm at 5:37 pm (UTC -4)
o, and we have a pretty weak bullpen as well. not even going to dive into K-Rod.
manicmcreynolds
12/14/2009-5:46pm at 5:46 pm (UTC -4)
1: The Phillies made a trade that improved their team by whatever degree you think Halladay is better than Lee (I say not much).
2: This had NO effect on the Mets’ situation: namely, they are a mediocre team whose fate depends more on the rebounds of Beltran, Reyes, and Wright (power-wise) than on what they do this offseason. Admit it!
and, for pessimists:
3: It coulda been way worse (Halladay-Lee-Hamels-Happ-the Phanatic)!
whataputz
12/14/2009-5:55pm at 5:55 pm (UTC -4)
So the most positive you can draw is that the upgrade the Phillies just made wasn’t too much of an upgrade?
Wheres our upgrade!!!!!!
Even If they rebound, understand that even with all of them clicking, and Delgado in the line-up we were still a bat away from being a serious ws contender. We have a ton of holes, and have yet to actually fill one thus far, whereas the Phillies have a world series caliber team.
manicmcreynolds
12/14/2009-6:19pm at 6:19 pm (UTC -4)
OK, but I’m pretty resigned to the fact that the Mets aren’t going to win the World Series in 2010. Once we’re in the playoffs I’ll worry about the WS. And I won’t worry about the playoffs until we’re over .500. Mets have a lot to prove next year, and it mostly falls on DW, JR, & CB.
I’m coming around to the idea of Bay, if he’ll sign for 5 years. I’m still not sure what to think about bringing back Delgado, in part because I’d like to see Murphy develop.
But I think Omar has to wrangle one of those SPs from the Reds, or else pull Meche & Callaspo off KC. Sell low on Castillo.
Sign Pineiro or Garland to be the #3/4, and hope Pelfrey can put his stuff together.
Hope that between Maine & Perez, somebody steps up as a solid #5.
Add at least one semi-proven FA to the pen.
I’ll go into April excited enough about that.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
You are right that switching out one shut down ace for another is not that big of a deal.
Either way, the Mets only hope of winning that game would be to have Santana pitch lights out.
This is a much bigger story if they retain Lee and Halladay together.
manicmcreynolds
12/14/2009-6:36pm at 6:36 pm (UTC -4)
And there is nothing far-fetched about Santana shutting down the Phils.
Anyway, what will really matter is how they pitch for their teams over the course of a full season. Santana and Halladay, if healthy for an entire season, each give their teams 25+ chances to win with 4 runs. Same would’ve held for Lee.
Main difference is that the Phils are considerably better at scoring those 4 runs.
It’s too early to tell whose rotation will be better as a unit, but this ace vs. ace stuff is pretty much a wash.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-6:39pm at 6:39 pm (UTC -4)
Well said.
stickguy
12/14/2009-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
It’s december 14th. ST doesn’t even start for a couple of months. Give it time.
manicmcreynolds
12/14/2009-5:30pm at 5:30 pm (UTC -4)
.364/.417/.727
That’s Jason Bay vs. Roy Halladay. 12 PAs only, but maybe the Mets should offer him 5 years now.
fongy2
12/14/2009-5:47pm at 5:47 pm (UTC -4)
They should have offered him 5yrs a couple days ago if they
wanted to keep him out of Boston and were serious about
getting him!
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-6:00pm at 6:00 pm (UTC -4)
I found Bay vs. Halladay to be 5 for 18 with a double, 2 homers and a walk, .278/.316/.667
On the other hand,
Bengie Molina vs. Cole Hamels, 0 for 10
vs. Roy Halladay, 1 for 9
manicmcreynolds
12/14/2009-6:08pm at 6:08 pm (UTC -4)
I got my stats from the Baseball Cube . . . strangely, it didn’t include any matchups from 2009, so maybe I used the site wrong.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/head2head.asp?B=bay-j001&P=hallr001
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-6:28pm at 6:28 pm (UTC -4)
I used baseball-reference.com, but it’s not easy because they just list them under the batter, broken down by # of plate appearances versus so you have to scroll down a long list looking for the pitcher’s name until you find it.
It’s easier to use yahoo sports. You just find the player’s page then click on “batter vs. pitcher” than on “since 1987″ and they are listed alphabetically by the pitcher’s team and then alphabetically within the team so you can zero in more quickly than on b-r.com
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7143/batvspit;_ylt=Au_XHCfcjMLOi2oZPvHOs7eFCLcF?year=career&type=Batting
prismo
12/14/2009-6:34pm at 6:34 pm (UTC -4)
Meh. I’m glad the Phillies traded and ace and prospects for another ace. The Lackey thing is more upsetting.
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-6:40pm at 6:40 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, and excellent use of “meh.”
gipperpdx
12/14/2009-6:41pm at 6:41 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly Prismo…where, pray tell is the needed legit number 2 coming from now? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-6:59pm at 6:59 pm (UTC -4)
Not only have they signed Lackey but they are apparently in “serious talks” with Mike Cameron. It seems my Christmas list got re-routed to Boston.
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-7:19pm at 7:19 pm (UTC -4)
ellsbury to LF, I suppose?
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-7:27pm at 7:27 pm (UTC -4)
“From what I can gather” that’s why they are in serious talks, to hash out where he’d play and how often they anticipate him playing (one writer’s guess at a possibility was a LF platoon of Cameron and Hermida, but would Cam sign there for that?).
gipperpdx
12/14/2009-7:20pm at 7:20 pm (UTC -4)
Yikes. Theo reads TRDMB!
Or perhaps more accurately: unlike Omar, Theo can read, period. “Y’know wha I’m sayin?”
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-7:25pm at 7:25 pm (UTC -4)
From ESPN:
“According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto’s repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead.”
I really hope the Jays didn’t make this trade for PR purposes by acquiring two guys who sound like they’re from Canada (Aumont is from Quebec).
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-7:28pm at 7:28 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe we could interest them in Francoeur?
Or Olivier Peretz?
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-7:34pm at 7:34 pm (UTC -4)
lol.
Do you think we can get Aaron Hill for Olivier, Frenchy and some of the pomme frittes from the CF concession at Citifield?
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-7:36pm at 7:36 pm (UTC -4)
Oui!
avec Louis Castille!
wannybackstra
12/14/2009-7:32pm at 7:32 pm (UTC -4)
Halladay’s extension is reportedly something like 3 years at $20m per with possible vesting options for more.
This must be part of Philly’s motivation as it was reported that Lee was not giving hometown discounts and will probably look for a guarantee greater than those handed out recently to Burnett and Lackey.
prismo
12/14/2009-7:53pm at 7:53 pm (UTC -4)
$20mil a year is a lot, but wow…only 3 years guaranteed?
metfreak
12/14/2009-8:09pm at 8:09 pm (UTC -4)
Phils, Ms, Blue Jays Agree On Halladay-Cliff Lee Blockbuster
By Tim Dierkes [December 14 at 7:04pm CST]
7:04pm: Drabek and “other top [Phillies] prospects” will be involved in the deal, according to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com (via Twitter). According to Salisbury, Brown will remain with the club.
6:55pm: J.A. Happ and Joe Blanton took physicals and could be a part of the deal, writes Rob Maaddi of the Associated Press. Domonic Brown also took a physical today, who is said to be coveted by the Jays.
metfreak
12/14/2009-8:11pm at 8:11 pm (UTC -4)
If the Phillies gave up Drabek,JA HAPP ,Lee,and others plus gave him 77 million for 3 years thats some trade .The BlueJays did good too
stickguy
12/14/2009-8:24pm at 8:24 pm (UTC -4)
tons of names mentioned, but there are probably off shoot deals too (if they are all on the move).
I am really curious to see what the final player tally is.
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-8:38pm at 8:38 pm (UTC -4)
I share your curiosity. Until it’s finalized and officially announced it’s hard to begin to judge it.
And then it will be years until we can see what if anything the prospects actually become.
I always recall thinking what a steal it was for the Tigers to get Doyle Alexander from the Braves for the stretch run in exchange for a AA pitcher who was 4-10 with an ERA over 5.00.
Alexander went 9-0 with an ERA under 2.00 and the Tigers won the East, then lost the ALCS. Two years later the Tigers lost 100 games and Alexander was out of baseball.
Meanwhile that prospect was appearing in his first of 8 All-Star games and helping the Braves finish in first place for 14 of the next 17 years.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-8:58pm at 8:58 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, the Smoltz deal, I remember it well!!
How about that prospect the Red Sox sent to Houston for Larry Anderson in order to shore up the pen for the 1990 stretch run?
Remember him?
GravediggerHebner
12/14/2009-9:06pm at 9:06 pm (UTC -4)
I lived in Boston when that happened, the name Jeff Bagwell is forever ingrained in my memory banks.
And in a twist of fate that haunts me ’til this day, Andersen now announces Phillies games, and rather belligerently.
Kingman 26
12/14/2009-9:09pm at 9:09 pm (UTC -4)
Correct on all counts!
steveo
12/14/2009-8:45pm at 8:45 pm (UTC -4)
One things for sure philly will be broke after this ,so when halladays arm falls off next year and I really hope it does they won’t be able to sure up any fa’s next year or 2