Yesterday in the fog of panic I came across the following article that I thought was very well written and perfectly sums up many of my feelings about the current off-season. Although I do not agree with every detail it is refreshing to know there are Mets fans out there outside of TRDM that are rational and are not acting like 8th graders stood up at a dance. In my opinion after reading many Mets blogs the past few days many Mets fans have been an embarrassment to their team and their fellow fans. My hope is that the coming weeks we do exactly as this author suggest. Relax. So this morning please enjoy this article from Dave Mills, an author on Mike’s Mets.
Questions of Restraint
Tuesday, December 15, 2009By Dave Mills
With the torrid pace of signings and offers that send shivers down the spines of real baseball buffs, let the word go forth to all Mets fans and especially to those who toil in the Mets front office–restrain thyself from the excesses of the few.
Eight years and $128 million for Matt Holliday? What? He’s a butcher in the OF (exemplified against the Dodgers in the playoffs) and not exactly a speed demon.
Five years and $85 million for John Lackey, who has only once won more than 14 games in a season and whose lifetime ERA is 3.81? Almost makes the Derek Lowe signing for $60 million look like a bargain.
Doc Halladay for $20 million a year at ages 34, 35 and 36 (plus cutting loose Cliff Lee and a prospect or two)?
For the Mets to enter the fray on these overpriced acquisitions and signings will do nothing more than personify desperation.
Restraint is demanded by those of us who know that 2009 was an aberration. The Mets were beset by a string of injuries that no team, no matter how deep their system, could have possibly overcome. The possibility of such roster devastation next season, or during any future campaign, is so improbable even Vegas would be reluctant to make book.
Why can’t we all take a deep breath and not exacerbate the situation? Our verbal restraint may actually keep a skittish Omar Minaya from making classic errors of misjudgment in a last-ditch effort to save his job.
This scribe (and a couple of others), has proposed a series of fixes that can yield positive results without sending away our quality prospects and taking on huge salaries.
Why can’t we give Chris Carter a chance to platoon with a Jonny Gomes and deliver some offensive firepower in LF, especially with Angel Pagan in reserve and Fernando Martinez and Nick Evans at AAA?
Why can’t Daniel Murphy be teamed with Garrett Atkins or Mark DeRosa, either of whom can also spell David Wright from time to time? With talent like Ike Davis on the farm, this strategy would be sensible.
Why can’t we let Omir Santos and Henry Blanco (Santana’s personal catcher) handle the receiving duties knowing that Josh Thole and Chris Coste are 90 minutes away in Buffalo?
Why can’t we sign a Sheets and/or Wang and see if Maine, Pelfrey and Perez can each revisit their best year of the past two? With Niese, Nieve and Misch in the mix of Show-worthy prospects, is it a risk not worth taking? Perhaps spending $16 million to sign Aroldis Chapman would even prove worthwhile in a year or two?
Can a Kelvim Escobar, Matt Capps, Nieve or even Maine be the 8th Inning answer? Why not?
All of these questions can be answered more prudently than just tossing big bucks and too many years at Jason Bay, Joel Pinero and others. Good teams need good role players.
Those of us who observed Gil Hodges’ resourceful and contemplative management style understand why he was able to nurture a championship. Gil understood and quietly communicated the role of each player on his roster. In case it has been lost in the 40 intervening years, that 1969 team had excellent starting pitching, a good (but not great bullpen), above average defense and not much else. At four positions (1B/2B/3B/RF), strict righty/lefty platoons were employed, yet Hodges still found playing time for his lefty swinging catcher (JC Martin) and backup switch-hitting outfielder (Rod Gaspar) to stay sharp and contribute both offensively and defensively. No manager ever got more out of a roster.
While the hoard of pundits like to tell us that the Mets oversell and overvalue their prospects, the thought of retaining Davis, Thole, Niese, F-Mart, Mejia, Nieuwenhuis, Holt, Flores, Havens and Tejada warms the cockles of my heart. No less exciting is the opportunity to see Reyes, Wright, Murphy, Pelfrey and Parnell try to climb the organizational ladder to some sort of greatness, or even just consistency.
If these reasonable questions are not answered in the 2010 campaign, the list of free agents that follows will certainly present far more options for 2011. That list includes: Joe Mauer, Victor Martinez, AJ Pierzynski, Carl Crawford, Jason Werth, Josh Beckett, Cliff Lee, Felix Hernandez, Brandon Webb, Javier Vazquez, Jeremy Affeldt and Huston Street. And the Highlanders and Red Sox can only afford about two apiece.
78 comments
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-8:16am at 8:16 am (UTC -4)
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And I have now seen in several places writers and fans criticizing the Phils’ trade, saying they gave up way too much.
trs86
12/16/2009-8:21am at 8:21 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, most Phillies blogs have a ton of readers who are very unhappy with the trade because they see it as a marginal upgrade for now but a major detractor in the long-run. They feel they should have just extended Lee and keep their prospects.
metsfan4decades
12/16/2009-8:32am at 8:32 am (UTC -4)
I’d love nothing more than to be able to thumb my nose at all these idiots saying Omar is incompetent, not doing enough, losing out on necessary pieces, etc.
Here’s hoping whoever we’ve got on the field going into April, that come mid season, we’ll be right in the thick of it.
As far as the Phillies, I’ve yet to see them pick up anybody viable enough for the bench. It’s early yet, I know, but their spending money faster than the Yankees!
They don’t get some decent pieces for that bench and BP, they’ll be an injury or two away from disaster. Can you see Martinez playing SS or second half the year for them? What if Ibanez doesn’t rebound from surgery or Howard gets hurt?
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
Alright! The First Lady of TRDMB comes out swinging at “these idiots”!!
I LOVE it!!
I am a fan for 3.6 decades now and I am right behind you!
metsfan4decades
12/16/2009-9:13am at 9:13 am (UTC -4)
Ha!
And on that note, Greg Prince over on Faith and Fear in Flushing has a post titled ‘Just Another Panic Monday’, that puts this whole Met off season so far, in perspective. He breaks down why so far, he doesn’t see these ‘missed signings’ as a big deal. Great read….
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Cool, thanks for the heads up on that piece; will check it out.
wannybackstra
12/16/2009-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
The Phils bench is not only fine but they’ve made several improvements. They acquired Ben Francisco in the Cliff Lee trade and he is about as good a 4th outfielder as any in MLB. He can do just fine if Ibanez is out and would be just fine if there was no Ibanez at all.
They signed Juan Castro, a fantastic defensive player who can play SS if needed.
They signed Ross Gload, who led MLB in pinch hits, and can play a solid defensive 1B if needed. (they also still have Greg Dobbs)
They also signed our starting catcher to be their backup catcher.
Anyway, I don’t understand why we continue to worry about the Phillies’ bench when it hasn’t presented any impediment to winning three straight division titles and 2 WS appearances.
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-8:41am at 8:41 am (UTC -4)
Well written article by dave but I have issues with “depending” on FA for next years class because easily half of them will probably not even hit FA. I mean you have to be delusional if you think joe mauer, king felix and josh beckett will hit FA. If im not mistaken, I have read reports that the twins and mariners are working out extensions with those guys.
I appreciate the idea but the reason i doubt the mets will go with carter and gomes is the fact that they need to sell tickets. They have been fighting this madoff story and assuring fans they have money to spend. With two big name FA out there, I just dont see how their PR group will be able to spin that in a postive light.
I dont know Omars plan(I dont think anyone does really) but I am hopeful he will find a way to make us competitive again, as he always has. I totally agree that 2009 has to be veiwed as an aberration, even though i can understand how that would be difficult to do considering how 2007 and 2008 ended.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-8:49am at 8:49 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think the guy is 100% right—we definitely need an upgrade at catcher, and I would say signing Bay would help for years too.
But I appreciate the positive attitude, and I think he is very much right about Holliday and Lackey; I was deluding myself about Lackey, and I really did know it all along.
Desperation is no place from where to make wise long-term decisions.
And we do have an entire brigade of moderately-to-extremely successful players returning from injuries.
trs86
12/16/2009-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
I still get jumped on because I point out that they Mets were in first place before the injuries and still only one game out after an incredibly bad June because of those injuries. No we were not playing good baseball and perhaps that catches up with us. But we did have the best May in team history. I guess that was all luck. While I understand we need some solid players to fill holes and we really need a bat to replace Delgado I am not one that thinks that the rest of the league has ran off and left us. I guess the Mets were just playing over their head and the rest of the NL East were playing under their potential when we were in the lead in June.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
I agree.
It is funny, as aggressive as I can get, I hesitate to mention the fact that we were in fact right in the thick of things before the injuries became ridiculous and insurmountable.
I love the idea that we may have Wright, Beltran, Reyes, and Johan back at all-star levels, and maybe even Ollie and Maine can rebound; even Delgado might be back and be productive.
But if I write all that, Oleo, Steveo, and a zillion others will start screaming at me.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
The key will be just like last year…. health. If Reyes, Beltran, Johan, Krod, and others are healthy we will be competitive even with average players added. However, if one of them is not healthy then we will need a star most likely to fill the void. That is why to me we only NEED 1 star and a bunch of role players this off-season. What is fun to debate is who that one star should be.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, and some of the list of potential FAs for next year are, of course, also a list of potential guys we can acquire at the trade deadline….
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
or a list of guys that work out extensions and are not going to be available…
trs86
12/16/2009-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
You do still have to remember that it’s the Twins and M’s. Although the M’s are looking like a contender for sure, they will have to choose between Lee and Felix as I don’t see them keeping both. The Twins I have no idea at this point if they get it done or not.
Perhaps Boston lets Beckett go now that they have Lackey.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
That’s the sleeper move right there….Mariners trade us Cliff Lee next year!!
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
that could be an option if they dont deal buckholtz(spl). I dont think mauer leaves the twins and i dont think felix leaves seattle imo but hey i guess we will wait and see
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
lol thats pretty ez tho…bay or holiday. The rotation is what im most concerned about to be honest but you guys are right. Thing is you have to be a little understanding to some of these fans. 2009 was brutal for alot of fans and im sure it will take time to recover, just as the 2007 collapse was difficult to recover from.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
It was just as brutal for us Dirty.
I guess some of us don’t think that whining and complaining will help at all.
And, as I have said, I don’t get miserable and morose and whiny when they lose. I get upset and angry, and then look forward to next year.
And yeah, maybe it is an oversimplification, but from day one of 2006 right through July of 2009, we were in first place or damn close to it the entire time.
We collapsed last year in the second half due to a spate of injuries which may very well have been among the worst injury plague ever suffered by an MLB team.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. Lost in all of that was that up until that point the Mets had won the most games of any team in the NL from 2006 through May of last year.
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
I agree with you that i dont think any team in sports is deep enough to handle that but also the defensive errors and base running blunders had nothing to do with the injuries.
Im just saying, as odd as the collapse was I would say that the 2009 season was equally as odd or more.
steveo
12/16/2009-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
No I won’t I actually agree with you,while I would have liked lackey I think given with what’s availible your plan makes sense.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Well, then I apologize again.
I did apologize yesterday for my comments about the Los Mets debate.
trs86
12/16/2009-8:50am at 8:50 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think he is even saying the Mets should not spend any money. He is saying that they should not be suckered into spending big money on a player who is not worth it just to make a move. Pgan and Carter would not be as good as Bay but is it worth 5/85? My feeling is yes Bay is worth it but there is a definite side to not over spending.
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-9:01am at 9:01 am (UTC -4)
well yea thats my point and i do hope that omar doesnt get suckered into doing a perez/castillo. It doesnt seem like he is doing to or seems phased by black monday. I think we need bay or holiday for LF. It would be nice to upgrade C but not to the point of desperation where we cave in for 3 years on molina. The rotation is the most interesting part of this offseason. We need to improve it but the skys the limit as to the possibility of doing that
trs86
12/16/2009-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
LOL, I still don’t even get the idea of Black Monday.
But anyway, I am confident in the fact that, like the plan or not, the Mets plan is still intact.
dirtysanchez
12/16/2009-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
i heard it and liked the way that sounded lol. It was a blockbuster, no matter how you look at it. Biggest trade in a while so i guess thats where black monday came from idk lol
I just hope omar has a crazy trade that nobody thought of…
jaydh
12/16/2009-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
I’m fine with just plugging the holes with stopgaps rather than overpaying, especially when we have prospects that could soon be ready to fill those holes(C Thole, LF FMart, 1B Davis, SP Niese). Pagan is going to hit no matter what. Historically he has done better vs lefties, although he still has a .291 career avg vs righties. Plus, I would like to see Murph get more playing time to see if he can hit like he did when he first came up and in the latter half of last season. I do think you will be overpaying for Atkins to be a platoon. Just fill the areas where we dont have anyone coming up, like the bullpen and possibly a starter. If they are going to get this japaneese pitcher, then fine, but dont stop there. Add mike gonzalez or someone of his caliber as well. I am all about having the shutdown bullpen and think its one of the most important parts of an NL team.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:03am at 9:03 am (UTC -4)
I completely agree about the pen….Gonzalez as setup man could be SO huge for us.
In 69, 86, and 00, we had very good to outstanding pens.
Getting Gonzalez and the Japanese guy, combined with a hopefully healthy KRod, would potentially give us a great pen, and shorten the game.
fongy2
12/16/2009-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
You love you some Mike Gonzalez, Brock.
Sorry to disagree there BUT I think the
guy is a little overrated.
Wouldn’t mind him BUT
for no more than 2yrs.
Too much of an injury history.
The guy I want is Matt Capps.Throws strikes, sometimes too
many BUT Omar should be all over this.
I’m a huge Johnny Gomes fan as well.
Nice power bat off the
bench and help for
Murphy at 1B.
If not him Ryan Garko.
I pretty much agree with the writer’s posting though,I like
Lackey,alot BUT 5yrs/
80some mil?…Steep!
And he’s right on about Matt Holliday.
A LEFTFIELDER,average
defender,good but not great power hitter…
7/8 yrs and well over
100 mil?? I no likey!
Even Bay who I like more will be overpaid.
My one problem with this story is, we don’t have Gil Hodges
Managing. With a guy
like Jerry, Omar needs
to give him an everyday eight and 5 SPs who a clear cut so
that Jerry only has to fill out the lineup card and let them play.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
True but as I posted to Oleo, I think, yesterday you will be kind of in a no lose situation next year. Either we win and you are happy or we lose and Jerry and Omar get the can and you are happy. LOL.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Cannot argue with much of that; as for Jerry, he is probably the person I least like in the entire organization. A joker, a back-stabber, a horrible strategist, and a very selfish, mediocre guy overall to me.
Gonzalez is pretty good, and if healthy, would be a fantastic setup guy. Then Feliciano and maybe the Japanese guy for the 7th? That sounds good.
Agree on Holliday, and my fear is that Bay signs elsewhere and then Boras REALLY robs Omar. But I think we will see Bay in Queens and Holliday back in St L as of now.
And I would absolutely like to add Capps if possible.
Can never, ever have enough good pitching, as the 1986 Met staff shows quite well.
Aguilera as 5th/spot starter and Myers as pen depth! It is fun to think about that staff!
trs86
12/16/2009-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Guys I am willing to bet that either Holliday or Bay ends up with the Angels. Guys they can’t sit back and let Lackey, Figgins, and most likely Vlad leave while bringing in nobody. Also while watching the M’s on paper move into having the better team. Just like Omar’s pressure to make a move I see the same for the Angels.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Think about it. They don’t even have a #1.
fongy2
12/16/2009-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
No question man!
Over the last few days I’ve become very facinated with this group of non-tendered guys.
I think I’d like to see Omar go in the direction of signing 3or4 of them
and allowing Parnell,Niese&Nieve compete
for a couple
spots on the staff.
trs86
12/16/2009-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think it has to even be the non-tender guys as many of them will still cost a lot of money. I expect Capps to get close to what Lyon got.
But the FA market is a lot like the Mets farm system. It’s top heavy but that does not mean there is not talent to be found deep in what looks like the bottom.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/2010-mlb-free-a.html
There are still a ton of FA out there that could help the Mets and would not require a longterm deal.
trs86
12/16/2009-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
Something as simple as Juan Uribe. Classic Jose Valentin type potential there.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
I agree. Hit the market and get as many of those type players as you can on short deals. Get 2 of the pitchers that get left out, one injury guy and one Garland type. If you can’t get Bay get a guy like Nady that could play LF and 1B. Get 2 lock down BP types one in the Japanese guy that could be great and one in Oliver or Gonzalez.
I AM NOT SAYING don’t spend money. I am saying spend it wisely. Wisely in my opinion was not paying Lackey what it would have taken to get him here.
metsfan4decades
12/16/2009-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
I too like the idea of seeing what we’ve got in some of these young guys. May or may not work out but it’ll be exciting to find out and much, much less expensive.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
why dont I want this plan Mr. Mills??
b/c Chris Carter is a career minor leaguer and has no business platooning in LF with Angel Pagan or Jonny Gomes.
b/c Omir Santos is a career minor leaguer and last year was a fluke
b/c Nick the Stick is not any good and should not be counted on as a top prospect
b/c the chances of Maine, Pelfrey and Perez all playing at their best is slim to none…
b/c Niese, Nieve and Pat Misch are not the future for the rotation
b/c our team last season (even injury free) had too many holes to make it to the postseason
Sure Lackey, Halliday, Holliday. That was never happening. The first 2 dont wanna play here and Holliday isnt that good. That I will agree with but what you proposed as a solution is an absolute joke of a team that wont even get you 75 wins…
trs86
12/16/2009-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
OK
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-9:25am at 9:25 am (UTC -4)
You are aware that we were near first place last year until the season was half over, and everyone was hurt, right?
You are aware of the fact that our “Core” got us one inning from the WS in 2006, and finished one game from the postseason in 2007 and 2008, right?
Disappointing finishes, of course, but without another injury plague like 2009, which is totally impossible, why the hell should we think this will be a 75 win team?
Have you ever enjoyed Met baseball except for 1986, and if you are not old enough to remember that, have you ever enjoyed Met baseball?
trs86
12/16/2009-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
I am guessing the answer is…. no
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Baseball is all about pitching, pitching and more pitching.
how could we have competed down the stretch with a rotation of Johan, Pelfrey, Ollie, Maine, whoever???
Reyes
Castillo
Beltran
Wright
Bay
Murphy
Francoeur
Molina
that is a fine lineup and will see no complaints from me but you cannot automatically assume that Maine, Pelfrey and Ollie will just play like they did in 07 and 08 is expecting too much and is a recipe for disaster…
trs86
12/16/2009-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
No where in any of this did we say do not sign another pitcher.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
the days of 1986 are over. You will never find a team with that type of personality ever again (or as drugged up I might add)
2006. That was exciting. 2007 that was exciting until the last few weeks…this team hasnt had the same fire since….
trs86
12/16/2009-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
So 2008 was not exciting? As painful as it was it was very exciting to see the Mets be the chaser and come back and take the lead. Only to have their bullpen blow it obviously but still exciting until the last day of the year.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
it was an exciting June to August. Ollie’s September pitching, Omar’s inexplicable standing pat and the trade deadline.
Our bullpen was a mess and the best he could give us was Luis Ayala???? We had Ramon Martinez, Nick the Stick and Robinson Cancel playing meaningful games the last week of the season. Unacceptable…
trs86
12/16/2009-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Difference in what you term as unacceptable and exciting. I for one was emotionally involved and sitting on the edge of my seat every game. Yes cursing and throwing things during violent fits of rampage. However, hard to deny it was exciting.
whataputz
12/16/2009-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
So they were exciting in ’08..your point? Winning a World series is a guaranteed way for a team to be exciting (I imagine it is at least..I’d be much happier with that. Oleo is right. Our rotation wasn’t going to hold up. And even if it was that doesn’t matter. Even if were going to be champions if not for the injuries, what does it matter? Beltran might not be the same, Reyes might not be the same, Wright needs to get his game back, Delgado was tearing it up and is now off the team and who knows how good Castillo will be.
And while that line-up is decent, it’s a line-up that you’re going to need a great staff to be competitive with. Murphy batting sixth isn’t exactly striking fear in pitchers. That’s a line-up you can win with if you have 5 solid pitchers. We currently have 1 ace, 1 ok pitcher who needs to step up his game, and a bunch of question marks. Even if we sign ok guys, we need to start actually putting bodies into the rotation. While I get being patient with these sluggers and aces, some of the other smaller pieces shouldn’t be forgotten here. We need a bullpen arm or two, we need 2 starters added to this rotation (perferably one of them being a # 2 caliber pitcher, but I could live with a sheets marquis, as long as we add some big time hitters.)
whataputz
12/16/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
And yes I’m saying this..not out of “Panic” (If you don’t agree with me I will just accuse you of panicking and therefore you are wrong), but if a guy like Marquis is currently trying to squeeze every penny out of teams and his best offer is something like 6 million, maybe you do just say screw it and offer him 7.5 to get him here. We are a NY team in a new stadium with a big fan base, why can’t we spend an extra mil or two over teams like WAS?
jaydh
12/16/2009-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
If healthy, we were definately a contender. If healthy, we dont trade wagner. wagner, putz, krod would have been filthy. We were in 1st place when our bullpen was among the tops in the league while the rest of our team wasn’t performing so great. Its easy to upgrade the rotation just by acquiring someone better than Livan. I also liked what i saw from Niese.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, think about it. Nieve gave us a 2.95 ERA before he went down.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
in a tiny sample size…you cant just go out there and expect him to keep it up…
trs86
12/16/2009-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
Nope
trs86
12/16/2009-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
But what is wrong with allowing him, Niese, Misch Maine and other scrubs compete for the #5 spot?
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
you cant afford to do that when you have Pelfrey coming off a terrible season. Maine being always hurt, and Ollie being a waste of talent.
Now if the Mets were able to package Maine or Ollie and get a reliable #2 SP…then yes I would be all for them competing for the #5 spot but you cant afford to do that when you have no idea what your #2-#4 SP will get you
trs86
12/16/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
So now you can’t allow Maine, Niese, Nieve, Misch and others compete for the #5?
Again, you are not paying attention here. We are not saying don’t sign another pitcher. We are debating the idea of letting those guys compete for the #5 slot.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
thats fine but it all depends on who that pitcher is.
Joel Piniero, Jason Marquis…on multi year deals…no thats not ok
but if Omar is going to get Sheets or Bedard or trade for someone like Duke that you mentioned then yes. that is fine
trs86
12/16/2009-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Off topic and way out there. Would the Cubs do this and would you do this?
Perez and Castillo for Soriano?
Soriano is owed 5/90. Castillo and Perez are owed a combined 2/36. Total cost per year for the next 2 years is equal. After that we would be on the hook for basically a 3/54 deal.
trs86
12/16/2009-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Soriano had an off year last year like almost every Cub. It was the first time in 7 years his OPS+ had dipped below 100 and also his first non all-star year since his rookie season.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
sure i’d do that in a second. They might laugh in your face though…
fongy2
12/16/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Done!
I think Soriano is on the downside of his career BUT also think a return to NYC
would give him a little jolt
AND to get rid of Ollie and
LuisAches&Pains it would be
a plus!
stickguy
12/16/2009-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
ah, but do you want to plug him back into the 2B hole, or keep him as a very poor OF?
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/16/2009-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Interesting Article by our beloved Heyman.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/12/16/mets.bay.holliday/index.html
Basically, he thinks that Mets have tweaked the offer to Bay with 5th year option, but $15M per year. But Bay is seeking 6 year contract (crazy!!). Also Omar will have conversation with Boras as early as Wed regarding Holliday. Is that just a tactic to get Bay to sign? Could be.
trs86
12/16/2009-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Or was Bay a tactic to get Holliday to sign. LOL.
stickguy
12/16/2009-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
some of you may know by now that I don’t like Luis Castillo (yes, shocking but true). But, I do like analogys.
For the Mets, I agree that restraint is a prudent, long term stratagy to build a successful, sustained winning, team.
But sometimes, you have to go a little overboard.
It is like when you are shopping for a special car (say, a BMW M5). Pretty rare, and condition is vitally important. So it can be very hard to find the right one.
Now, say you “know” that a clean one is worth 15K. But, one day you stumble upon the perfect one for you. Pristine, right color, exact options you want. Really the car of your dreams.
Well, then you should be willing to stretch the old budget, and pay pretty much what it takes. So what if 17K is “too much”, if it is really what you want and need, go the extra mile.
Same with players. Don’t overpay for a ratty one just because you feel you have to get one, but go the distance for a real stud if it makes your team that much better.
oleosmirf
12/16/2009-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
agreed although Omar tends to go the extra mile for the Fiat instead of the Ferrari…
fongy2
12/16/2009-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I agree,hence the $220 a piece
Wrangler’s with kevlar on my
Cherokee,I lose a mile or two
MPG BUT with the Quadra-Trak,
I’m gettin’ home in the snow!
The problem with this FA class
is however that there aren’t
many “studs”…If any.
trs86
12/16/2009-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
AGREED
People think I don’t want the Mets to ever spend money. I have said from day one I if there was a Tex or CC on the market spend like mad. I was very upset that the Mets did not figure out a way to get in on Tex last year because it solved a long-term hole. However, in my opinion this years FA class could have Lowe written all over it.
stickguy
12/16/2009-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
my point exactly. So not a big deal if they let the “big names” slide by, even though it gets the blogshere (at least the comment sections!) in an uproar.
I actually think Omar is more likely to do that this year. Why? Let me tell you! The fact that they brought him back to fix the mess (and surrounded him with experienced help) must mean (I hope) that there is an organizational plan, and support for making tough decisions. Even if it might not be appeasing to the fans right now.
so, if they decided to bite the bullet and hold onto the farm this off seaosn, Omar isn’t going togive it up (or maybe they just won’t let him!)
I somehow think Omar can’t go take a leak without raising his hand to ask permission, so I doubt he can clear cut the farm or give Holliday a Teix size contract.
fongy2
12/16/2009-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
I’ll give you guy’s ten, pick three:
Amezaga,Garko,Gomes,Hairstonjr,Thames,ChadTracy,Capps,Cotts,MacDougal and
Wellemeyer.
These are the types Omar should have
SOME focus on.
Kingman 26
12/16/2009-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Capps, Garko, and MacDougal please!
wannybackstra
12/16/2009-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
I don’t like MacDougal for a team that already walks too many (especially in the pen.
But I’ll agree with Capps and Garko and add in a Hairston, Jr. (was tempted on Cotts and think Tracy is a good bounce bacl candidate)
fongy2
12/16/2009-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
At least we all agree on
Garko and Capps.I thnk
Cotts would be
my 3rd guy,just
for the record.
trs86
12/16/2009-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm
Thames, Capps and Hairston JR.
Mr North Jersey
12/16/2009-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
The article is well written I give the author that. It is but one side of a coin though.
The author tells you to overpay for Holliday or Halladay is a sign of desperation. That maybe the Mets should consider some platoons with some current Mets mixed in with some more affordable free agents.
All these are good ideas if you are going to admit that the Mets to sign a big name free agent after what has transpired the last 3 years have to overpay and since they will not do so they must move on to plan B.
This is my problem because I always thought the Mets had to overpay to get a big name to sign. So to see a player like Lackey a pitcher that would fill a much needed hole go to the Red Sox a team that is full of pitching already for 17 million a year without even going back to the Mets if for noting else but to use the Mets to try and get Boston to make a larger offer. I scratch my head and ask myself how bad have we become that free agents don’t use to drive up their value?
Or could it be the Mets possibly let it be known they had no plans on going above a certain number so there was no need to run back and see if the Mets would counter Boston’s offer.
Now here we are with Bay and Holiday the Mets have made a 4 year offer to Bay and Bay has yet to accept their offer. You think the Mets will have to overpay?
I LOVE repeat L-O-V-E the idea of building from within and our “BABY METS” give me hope that 1 or 2 will pan out to be good or even very good players in the coming years. As a fan I can deal with losing if it’s because we are building from within with home grown talent to win a ring.
It is the only time I will ever say I can put up with losing. If this is Minaya’s plan fine then I want to see the kids get a chance so don’t sign Delgado or Molina and don’t overpay for Bay or Holiday and let our players Murphy, Thole, Davis, Holt, FMart, Nieuwenhuis, Rustich and Menjia to name a few have a shot at playing with the big club and not be sent down at the 1st sign of struggle.
The Mets #1 priority was to get a pitcher that would be considerably better than what we have right now with the exception of Santana. Everyone knew that there are not many pitchers like that available. 2 that were available was Lackey and Halladay and they’re gone. Who is next on the list? Maybe Arroyo? Maybe Wang? Maybe Chapman? The ball is in Minaya’s court all we can do is wait and see.
As far as 2011 free agents are you kidding? You wanna project into 2011 when we can’t even project what the Mets plans are for 2010.
GravediggerHebner
12/16/2009-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Among many other things, what teams that are successful over extended periods do is project not just next year, but the next 4 or 5 years.
Perhaps this example won’t make my case the best way it could be made, but I have listened repeatedly to Michael Kay (who admittedly is biased) talk about how the Yankees went all in on Teixeira last year because they projected that both their minor leagues had nothing to offer them in the next few years at that position, and that the free agent and trade markets had nothing to offer them either (they knew the likelihood of Pujols was remote). They looked at Teixeira’s age, offensive and defensive abilities and determined that over the next 4 or 5 years he was the best man for the job and they got him.
In that context, I can understand the Mets not being willing to go all in for Lackey (even though I was willing, if I were GM I would’ve done it based on need, but I can see the other side).
Of course this also assumes that the Mets have any foresight at all. This I can’t be so sure of. But the strategy in general, I understand and believe in even when I don’t always support it, and in the case of Lackey specifically he’s a player I’ve loved since he burst on the scene in 2002 and my personal bias comes through when discussing him.