"Dios Mio, I'm going to have to lay down a perfect bunt to make up for this."
Dave Cameron of fangraphs.com has published an interesting article called The Second Base Glut. In it he takes a close look at the general second base situation throughout the major leagues. If he is to be believed, we all need to resign ourselves to Luis Castillo as the Mets starting second baseman for 2010. An excerpt:
- Last year, bad defensive outfielders got a rude awakening in free agency, as Adam Dunn, Pat Burrell, and Bobby Abreu learned first hand that teams were beginning to value defense at positions besides catcher and shortstop. There were too many lumbering sluggers available, and the excess supply drove prices down for all of them. This year, the hurt is landing on second baseman.
138 comments
dirtysanchez
12/17/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
yea…i kinda just wrapped my head around castillo starting in 2010.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve been listening to Boston sports talk today and some unrelated to Luis Castillo tidbits:
- John Lackey’s wife is from New England and her whole family are life-long Red Sox fans, Theo Epstein thanked her for her participation in bringing him to Boston. I think we can probably absolve Omar on this one.
- The host of the show I’m listening to took a call about the Sox going hard after Joe Mauer and said in response “I believe unless Mauer stays in Minnesota he will be overwhelmed by the Yankees and become baseball’s first $300 million man with a 10 year, $30 million annual contract.”
- In an interview with the Sox manager, Francona said “I have some ideas about what I want to do with Cameron and Ellsbury but I’m not gonna tell you guys, I want to talk to them first.” Sort of a better way to handle that type of thing than say telling the press Mike Piazza is going to start at 1B before telling Mike, or more recently telling Ryan Church that he won’t be an everyday player through the press.
metsfan4decades
12/17/2009-1:45pm at 1:45 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for these tidbits.
300 million? That is just….well, crazy.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/17/2009-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. I mean Mauer is the best catcher out there, $300M for 10 years. Even the Yankees would not do that.
I think Mauer would get something like what Tex got from the Yanks/BoSox. But much less from the Twins.
fongy2
12/17/2009-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know…I was told time and
again by many over at mattsblog,including some now here…
THAT this Castillo contract wasn’t
all that bad! I complained about this since moment one and could find
almost no one who agreed with me.
Prime example of Omar focusing on a
guy HE loved and then bidding against
himself for the guy’s services.
And PLEASE, no posts about how Houston was interested. I’ve covered
this in detail TOO MANY times.
Houston never offered more than two years to him and Omar wasted no time
in throwing fours at him BECAUSE this
was the guy he wanted period,as in period. For God’s sake, he signed him a week BEFORE Thanksgiving!…
Did he really explore any other options?? I think not!
This guy was a 150lb. slap hitter/speed player just a few yrs
ago,who is now 190lb. slap hitter with little speed and who’s gone from being a plus to a minus fielder.
When he first became a FA in 2003, our
fmr GM was very interested until his
medical reports were examined.At that
time, in addition to his balky knees
and ankles it was learned he suffers
from a very serious hip condition which in all likelyhood will cause him to need a hip replacement after his career is over. This was reported in all four NYC daily papers
at that time. I remember thinking then”dodged a bullet with that guy”.
Omar gets him for nothing, he’s ok but not great,files for FA and boom,
Omar rewards him with the fat new four yr deal. Again, I’ve been screaming for yrs that this will kill
any chance to move him and that we’re
stuck with a shell of the former player he was…And we are.
All we can do is hope and pray he stays healthy, isn’t any worse in the
field and con’ts to do what he can, take alot of pitches&slap the ball
around.
He’s not really much of a SB guy anymore,has absolutely no power and
can’t drive in runs.
So, thats what we have for 6million at 2B. Thanks, again Omar.
At least Luis’ children will never go hungry!
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not going to attempt to dispute anything you’re saying here, I will only note that the point of the fangraphs article which prompted my post was not that Luis Castillo’s contract and/or legs were bad, it was that not a lot of teams need a second baseman and that whether you are a free agent second baseman looking for a job, or a team trying to trade a second baseman, you’re simply out of luck.
fongy2
12/17/2009-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
And my point is that this contract was gonna come back to kill us and that there was never any reason to give him
more than a two yr deal to start out with. This is my fear with Omar and Molina,
He ends up with a multi-yr deal and we’re stuck with a guy
who does so few things well that it just kills us.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
Again, fair points all. But lets take a look back at the free agent 2B in the year when the Mets re-signed Castillo:
Miguel Cairo
David Eckstein
Marcus Giles
Tony Graffanino
Tadahito Iguchi
D’Angelo Jimenez
Kaz Matsui
Aaron Miles
Abraham Nunez
Jose Valentin
Chris Woodward
It’s just my subjective opinion, but I think the Mets got the best one.
dirtysanchez
12/17/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
not to mention that gritty mceckstein was omars FIRST CHOICE. David didnt want to play with us and luis was the best available option left. The mets had no 2b prospects and that was a huge hole that was not filled going into that season. Houston was bidding for luis also and Omar basically did a Braves/Lowe…
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you I had forgotten about that.
trs86
12/17/2009-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
Gritty Evenmoremcrappy did not want to play 2B and wanted to hold out and got screwed. Never liked him to start with.
darknova306
12/17/2009-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
What, you don’t like David “Captain of Grit” Eckstein? :p
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
I know you’re kidding but I will nonetheless note Castillo is younger (9 months), has the same SLG and higher BA & OBP and steals more bases than Gritty.
Not to mention Gritty has been a negative fielder at 2B his entire career, and at SS since 2004.
darknova306
12/17/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely. I’ve always thought the love-fest for Sir Grits-a-lot was ridiculous and vomit-inducing. Eckstein was on the right team at the right time (The Team. The Time. The… Cardinals…?)
trs86
12/17/2009-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Well then it’s settled. I guess there is no reason to say that the rumor was 3/20 from the Astro’s. You are right Omar just said, “Oh you got 2 we will give you 4″ Anyway.
fongy2
12/17/2009-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
My friend, we’ve been over this time and again,I followed this daily via the Houston papers online. There
was never any contract offer by the Astros. Just statements released by the club that they’d be interested
in a one yr deal.A couple days later,they
indicated they might
go two yrs but no more. Now according to the Mets own website,Castillo agreed to a 4yr deal
on 11/18/07,signing the deal,sans physical
on 11/19/07. Considering he became a FA on 10/29/07 and that only The Mets could talk to him until 11/13/07,you mean to tell me Omar
explored other options and concluded
Castillo was best in 4or5 days? Or was that choice really already made?
Further, The Astros had time to go over this guys physical history and figure out
what they wanted to do
or was it more likely
Omar set the price by blowing out everyone else for the guy he wanted? C’mon!
Listen TRS,I’m
more than happy to debate opinion BUT when you make snarky
comments about facts
that I know and you’re not sure of,
It’s a friggin’ insult. I know what happened with this guy b/c, I followed it daily and was arguing about it THEN.
Exactly what has gone on with this guy is exactly what I thought
would and instead of just saying,fong we
disagree about alot but you were right on with this, you instead
insult me by implying
I either don’t know what I’m talking about
or worse, I just made it up.
trs86
12/17/2009-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
How many contract offers are actually published Fongy? We had one out for Lackey, do you know how much it was for? We had one out for Lowe do you know how much it was for?
trs86
12/17/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Also, why do you continue to ignore published reports that Ekencrappy was his first choice?
Fongy my friend, I was on Metsblog when it happened and most likely argued with you about it then…
If you say Houston offered 2 years, find that for me. Did they have time to offer him anything at all? How do you know they did not let him know they would go 3. Again, besides YOUR snarky remarks on Omar do you really think a GM is going to best the best offer by 2 years and more money? I don’t see it. I will continue to believe what was rumored at the time because in my opinion that makes much more sense. Logic tells you that Omar went the extra year to get the guy he wanted.
fongy2
12/17/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
I’m done wasting my time with you on this.
Have a nice day!
trs86
12/17/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
You too sir.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
And I believe you ask for this discussion in a round about way by saying
“And PLEASE, no posts about how Houston was interested. I’ve covered
this in detail TOO MANY times.”
Thus implying that your rumors were more actuate than our rumors. LOL Well my grandpa was bigger than your grandpa.
Relax fongy, we have common ground here. It was a bad signing. You think it was bad by 2 years and I think it was bad by 1.
fongy2
12/17/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
Not MY rumors.
What was reported in the Houston and NYC newspapers AT THE TIME.
But good luck with taking
Omar’s logic over what was reported AT THE TIME.
Unreal!
Omar’s logic?
Who exactly was offering Ollie
3yrs AFTER the Braves already signed
Lowe?
Moises Alou?@40?,
Murphy&Church in the corners instead of Abreu..
for a yr? Duque? for 2yrs?
Franco for 2?,
Mota for 2?
AFTER the playoff blowup &’roid suspension?
And so on and so forth..
Okay..
Omar’s logic?
Like I said, unreal.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
Have a good day Fongy.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Castillo might still get by on his reputation as a good defender. Some GMs are still in the stone age and their scouts may have caught Luis on one of his good days (no, not the dropped pop up).
But I agree that trading Luis will very difficult given his performance, health, physical appearance (the limping and the miserable look on his face), contract and the relative lack of demand for a second baseman, let alone one with his skills.
metsfan66
12/17/2009-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
Castillo might be attractive to teams with young infields as a mentor.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
He might. Personally I doubt it, since he’s kind of pouty, but he might be a useful mentor despite that pout, that’s a unique perspective on it. Thanks for sharing it and welcome to our little blog.
fongy2
12/17/2009-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, he did a great job mentoring Jose Reyes!
Mush, I tell ya! The guy’s
been mush for us!
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Fong, as you are an investigator who relies on facts, can you supply some which support the notion that Castillo was a bad influence on Reyes?
fongy2
12/17/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
That was kind of a joke based only on
a couple of page 6 reports.
I’m also only joking that since he arrived we’ve suffered through two epic collapses
and a season
which we lost
everyone BUT
him to injury,
thus destroying our year.
Anti-Christ,The
Cooler or Mush,
call him what you want BUT our luck certainly hasn’t been very good since
he’s arrived.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
LOL! Well, that is quite the litany that Slappy is responsible for!
I do remember him blowing several saves out of the pen at the end of 2008 and throwing a couple of real clunkers as a starting pitcher down the stretch in 2007…
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
The Cooler–ever see that movie with Alec Baldwin and William H. Macy and Maria Bello? Not great, but a very good Vegas movie…
fongy2
12/17/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
thats what I was talkin bout AND Mush from A Bronx tale…get it??
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
Ahhhh! I do now!!
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
Eh.
He just isn’t that bad.
Sorry.
We have much larger fish to fry, and let’s just hope that Luis and Molina don’t eat them all.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I disagree on defense and personally believe in the field he IS that bad, but…
I really only wrote the post to see if I could get a “Stickguy” sighting (so far no luck) and also because in the back of my mind I recall TRS urging us to “write lots of posts” sometime recently. I’m really scraping the bottom of the barrel in an effort to do that, can I stop doing that now?
trs86
12/17/2009-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
It is relevant because of the possible rumor with Arroyo.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
Grave, I was not targeting this comment at you or your post in the slightest–seriously.
I was just giving my opinion on Slappy in general.
I think I am a little bit on eggshells around you after being called Khrushchevian!!
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
No worries. You are allowed to disagree with me and to express that. I respect your opinions even if I happen to disagree, and sometimes you even change my mind. Don’t stop (thinkin’ ’bout tomorrow).
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
Right back at ya.
And I really hated it when you were absent for a while after getting the new job.
The graphics you use literally make me LOL.
And I am quite sure tomorrow’ll soon be here, better than before.
trs86
12/17/2009-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
We do have larger fish, but the offense can be upgraded this year at 2B because of the market so if he can be moved then he needs to be.
darknova306
12/17/2009-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
Defense is a very serious issue, especially if we take on any more pitchers that rely on the infield. For one example, if Pelfrey is going to make serious strides, he needs to be reasonably confident in the gloves behind him. While I don’t think we should focus entirely on dumping Luis, I do think Omar can pursue it while fixing other holes (he’s not single-focused like a lot people would love to believe).
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
Why didn’t the Knicks draft Brandon Jennings? More importantly, why did they draft Jordan Hill to (not) play behind the team’s arguably three best players (Lee, Gallinari and Jordan Hill)?
Yeah, I know I’m behind but I don’t pay much attention to the NBA.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
I would love to blame that on Isiah Thomas, but I’m afraid this one’s on Donnie Walsh. Perhaps he’s trying to make up for it with the recent signing of Jonathan Bender. Maybe so when he later trades him he won’t regret it so much.
Gallinari looks good though, gives me some hope.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/17/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
Sigh… the joy of being Mets/Knicks fan.
fongy2
12/17/2009-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed!
Walsh’s thought seems
to be Hill will
replace Lee who
like Robinson will likely be
moved at the deadline.
I think he’s outta his mind
about it but that does seem to be the plan.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
TRS and friends, this info from MLBTR relates to the Zach Duke conversation of yesterday:
“ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick tweets that arbitration-eligible starter Ricky Nolasco agreed to a one-year, $3.8MM deal for 2010. That means Nolasco gets a $1.4MM raise (58%) for his second arbitration year. By comparison, Joe Blanton received a 48% raise in his second arb year (going from $3.7MM to $5.475MM). Nolasco’s deal could be a comparable used by Zach Duke’s agent Mark Pieper, as Duke is also entering his second arb year.”
trs86
12/17/2009-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm Duke for 3.8 and prospects or 2-3 years of scrubs at 10 million a year?
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
Also factor in you either non-tender Duke next year or give him another significant arbitration raise.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
Very true. I got some info from a Pirates blog that commented they thought he would be good for Citi for what it’s worth and they would be looking for a cheap innings eater potential pitcher, a middle infield prospect and a long-term pitching prospect.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
I recall reading that (so I think you must have excerpted it here?) and I thought the cost in what the blogger was expecting in trade, if accurate, made it a non-starter, at least IMO.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
MLB ready SP to fill some of the innings void left by Duke, a mid-level positional prospect, and then a low-level arm.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
Duke is no less of a scrub than some of the free agents.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
This implies he is no MORE of a scrub though eh I asked through orange and blue colored glasses?
To me the best thing Duke has going for him is he’s 26. I can’t point to much more than that as a selling point, but it seems worth noting, the theoretical “upside.”
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
agreed that he’s not more of a scrub (yet).
trs86
12/17/2009-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
Nope. Did not mean to imply he was. We had this discussion already. He is not any better than the scrubs but I like the idea of him at 3-4 million and a short to no commitment instead of 3 years of the other guys. Obviously depending on what we have to give up.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
If the transactional cost is 3-4m and the package we discussed yesterday, i.e. Niese, Tejada, plus I’d have to take my chances with one of the other losers.
Niese could be a free option for 5th starter some time this season.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
True. I guess it is what do you expect out of Niese. To me I expect no better than Duke and most likely much fewer innings. I also think we could afford to lose either Tejada or Havens without a big loss to the team.
DNDJohan aka kistics
12/17/2009-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
Given that there’s still Hudson, Johnson, and Lopez out there, I don’t see the reason for any team to take Castillo’s 2/12.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
Unfortunately none of those guys have demonstrated consistently positive defense, so despite the likelihood that 2 or 3 of them would be an improvement over Luis, I’m not sure how much of an improvement they’d be in the field.
The good news may be though that since so few teams are actively pursuing 2B that the Mets might be able to afford to sign one of these guys late and cheap with Luis still in the fold. But how that impacts the overall 25 man roster is something I haven’t thought through completely.
trs86
12/17/2009-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
Lopez can stand at many positions and the Phillies wanted Hudson for 3B. Not sure if that impacts anything or not.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
How about the Knicks??
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
So if Castillo is not tradeable, because of the many options, do we bring in Lopez or Hudson for the bench?
The bench already consists of Blanco, Pagan and Cora. Bringing in one of these guys, is redundant since you already have Cora, but also it’d mean we’re going with only 1 OF bench player or no corner infielder on the bench.
Moving Castillo would really seem to be a miracle. Someone wrote early in the off-season that moving Castillo would be Omar’s hardest job. Seems that person may be right.
Also, until Omar sees Delgado play, they’re not going to bring in a 1B bench guy, cause that might be Murphy’s job depending on how Delgado does. So we may miss out on Garko, unless Murphy would be the new Tatis.
BTW, where’s Tatis?
trs86
12/17/2009-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
TatIS looking for a job.
Garko could be the RH platoon guy they have been looking for to pair with Murphy.
Lopez and Johnson I believe play OF while again Hudson may be able to play 3B./
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Lopez has played LF as recently as 2008, it was a terribly small sample (13 starts) and he was horrible (minus 41.1 UZR/150).
I think if we’re asking one of these guys to play any significant time in the OF, we’d be better off with Johnson, who hasn’t played OF since 2005 but in 73 LF starts that year was plus 17.9 UZR/150.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
True, I was thinking that Lopez can stand at more positions than Johnson. They are both terrible defenders at about every position they have played and often their sample sizes are very small at some of these positions. I am willing to let defense slide a little in terms of a utility guy. Cora is supposed to be the good defense middle IF and Pagan is supposed to be the good defense backup OF. Myself I would welcome back Tatis who could stand at a lot of positions as well and had decent UZR numbers while doing it.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
I hear you and this is more emotional than fact based but I’m looking for as much roster turnover from 2009 as is within reason.
So as versatile and therefore useful as Tatis can be, if I can enter 2010 with a bench of hypothetically Blanco, Cora, Pagan, Garko, Johnson I’m pleased with the turnover.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
I addressed this one below but was Tatis a problem? Roster turnover for the sake of turning it over is not needed in my opinion. To me there is more of a reason not to bring back a cheap Delgado than there is a cheap Tatis. At least some could argue Delgado’s negative effect on the clubhouse and Mets future. What did Tatis do wrong? Besides hit .853 OPS and .777 OPS from the backup spot. Why do we expect that Garko or Johnson could even come close to that? Garko’s last 2 years have been worse than that and Johnson Carrer average was the same as Tatis’s numbers last year.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t argue, as I said it’s an emotional point of view I have. The more of 2009 I can shed the better I’ll feel.
I don’t take that so far as to say “lose Wright!” but I mean spare parts type turnover pleases my cold withered heart.
I can’t argue that is anything more than ‘change for changes sake’ and I know that’s not always a good and can sometimes be a bad thing.
For me it’s simply, he’s already gone so I don’t have to ‘get rid of him’ I merely have to replace him. Half the task is already done.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
True but I would not be surprised to see him back.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
tatis was garbage for 2/3 of the year. his OPS benefited from a strong August and September and a flukishly powerful July (slg 563 but OBP 288).
tatis BA by month:
apr/march — 348 (only 23 ABs)
may — 227
june — 233
july — 229
aug — 310
sep/oct — 373
He was the king of DPs. Even here we were joking what a flop he was.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
We picked on Tatis because we had no one left to pick on.
Take a look around at ANY bench player that can play 3 positions even and find one with better stats the last 2 years. Especially one that is available.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
I do recall us saying things like ‘Tatis gets more DP action than a porn star.’
trs86
12/17/2009-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
OPS+ of 107, 123, 105 his last 3 years in the majors.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
My point, TRS, is that the “stats” for last season aren’t as good as they appeared in the end.
He really hurt the team for a long while.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
His DP’s doubled last year. Who knows if that was a fluke or not.
His rate last year was 1/29 AB’s. That was the same ratio as Wright and Carlos Lee. A better ratio than Phillips, Escobar, Agonz, Pujols, Zimmerman, Tejada.
Obviously all of those guys are better hitters. Just trying to put the DP’s in perspective.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny I am guessing he really hurt the team even more by the fact that he had to play too much. I would imagine that is the case for any utility bench player.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
it’s not just the DPs. See above.
I like Fernando. Plays hard. Seems like a good guy. Competent.
But replaceable.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
Even with his completely garbage 1st half:
.249 .320 .393 .713
Those are still acceptable numbers for a bench player that can play (stand) at multiple positions.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
probably true. but sh*t is going to happen and these guys are going to play.
however, if you value him for playing multiple positions, doesn’t that contemplate him playing often?
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Without looking up stats which may disprove this, my recollection is that Tatis was far worse when he WASN’T playing regularly, which is ironically what we would be hoping for in 2010.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously he is replaceable. He is not some superstar. I just see no reason to do it based on the options out there. I am looking at how Atkins got a big pay day with worse numbers the last 2 years.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
Oddly enough, not sure if this implies one thing or another he played in 1 more game in the first half and only a hand full more ab’s in the first half.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Also another interesting stat, as a sub last year:
.269 .316 .500 .816
trs86
12/17/2009-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
I would expect him to get about 250 AB’s Wanny.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
That “first half/second half” thing is broken down by pre and post All Star break, so more games in the first half.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
i don’t see why the “sub” numbers are interesting. but feel free to entertain yourself!
trs86
12/17/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
True Grave but he started 5 in April, 14 in May, 14 in June, 10 in July, 22 in August, 14 in July.
Thus besides August he was pretty consistent. In August he put up his 4th highest OPS total of the year.
Fact is for last year he had a god awful May and June. In fact 8 of his 13 DP’s came in June alone.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Sub numbers for a bench guy should be interesting right? That is also one of his jobs, to pinch hit and occasionally take someones place for the rest of the game. He did manage 57 PA in that role.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
those 57 plate appearances are, well 57 plate appearances. that’s a sample size large enough to tell you very little about nothing (he wasn’t a particularly good pinch hitter if you are trying to impute his pinch hitting numbers from his sub numbers you don’t have to: .257 .325 .457 were his numbers specifically in pinch hit at bats — therefore his numbers as strictly a sub were in 15 at bats).
anyway, sub at bats, if not pinch hit at bats, could be garbage time nothing. in fernando’s case the majority of his sub at bats were poor pinch hitting appearances, meaning he did well in 17 at bats playing RF in 10-2 games or in his second at bat after a double switch.
trs86
12/17/2009-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
Even in his pinch hitting stats he managed a .782 OPS. That is still hard to find for a guy that can stand at multiple positions.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
why does it matter how many positions a pinch hitter can stand at? i’d rather have a pinch hitter who can pinch hit (sweeney, alou, staub and harris were hardly versatile among great pinch hitters).
tatis’s primary role as a pinch hitter is to get on base. he got on base at a .325 clip last season as a pinch hitter and for his career is 215 .281 .316.
and again, why do you care how many positions he can “stand” at if you want his at bats limited? what benefit do you derive from a guy who can play all over the field if you don’t want him to play frequently?
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
The flipside is, at least Lopez, however inconsistent, has recently given positive defense at 2B. Johnson is minus 7.4 UZR/150 for his career (although ‘merely’ minus 0.2 last year), whereas Lopez was plus 7.6 last year and is plus 2.6 at 2B for his career.
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
So, a combination of Garko+Lopez/Hudson/Johnson should have us covered for all bench positions?
Okay.
Still, with Garko, I hope he waits around until Omar makes a decision on Delgado.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, again I think what we are looking for is there with Tatis already. I know how people want to change chemistry but do we really need to change that chemistry? A guy that needed the money from baseball for the right reasons and reinvented himself because of it. He played through 2 rough seasons without a word and constantly found himself at different positions daily. I say he is very valuable to the Mets.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
Hudson proved down the stretch and in the postseason that he can sit on the bench….
trs86
12/17/2009-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
I agree Kingman, again it is only fair that we show those stats for the Tongue though. Torre did the right thing but I think just like the grit stuff is used too much for him I am afraid we may use that too much against him. Fact is he is still the best FA 2B.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
I agree….I am more just joking around…but there is something wrong with Hudson; no one wanted him at all last year, except the Dodgers at a bargain rate, and how much is he getting mentioned this year?
trs86
12/17/2009-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
I think the problem is and was his asking price. He screwed up last year asking for the moon and now he is left picking up the pieces. Very similar to Abreu last year and then Molina a few years ago.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
Since Fongy hasn’t already piped in I’ll say the whole “he’s the best FA 2B available” thing is what got us Castillo in the first place. :-p
trs86
12/17/2009-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
I agree hopefully Omar has learned his lesson and will not beat everyone’s offer by 2 years for the fun of it.
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
I’m actually rooting for Hudson. I want an influx of old vets that can be role-players.
Winn or Damon – LF
Delgado – 1B
Molina – C
Hudson – bench (surprisingly, O-Dog is only 32). How about Orlando Cabrera or Tejada?
Tony Clark – bench
Randy Johnson – SP
Washburn – SP
Oliver – LHRP
Park – RHRP
All on 1 year deals
fongy2
12/17/2009-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Tony Clark retired my friend.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
yes and a couple of these guys should line up behind him
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
fine, Dmitri Young
trs86
12/17/2009-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
I think he is eating a doughnut and taking a sugar pill.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
The Big Unit for one last hurrah!
He loved NYC the first time around.
Bring him in.
Delgado, Molina, and Gritty McHudson if he will platoon with Slappy.
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
obviously I’m joking, but since next yrs FA market is supposed to be better, maybe bringing in guys on 1 year deals isn’t such a bad idea.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
How about this one for published reports. Newspapers coming out saying the Mets had no one to watch Chapman pitch. Many fans erupt and call them cheap. Now it turns out they did have someone there. The Newspaper reporters are no more fact than the rumor mills.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
Anybody speak Dutch?
http://www.honkbalsite.com/nieuws/2009/1312_weijgertse_hato.html
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
Courtesy of google translate:
“Two Dutch talents yesterday signed a professional contract for New York Mets. These are the players Kevin Kinheim Weijgertse and Björn Hato. The pair continued yesterday in Hoofddorp, in the presence of European scout Lionel Chattelle, a signed a seven-year contract. The expectation is that both players early April travel to the training camp in Boca Chica (Dominican Republic).”
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I fear Jason Bay will get wind of this and say “hey you gave these guys 7 year deals, where’s mine?”
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
let’s see how many points he scores.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
This paragraph translated rather hilariously:
“Similarly Hato Björn (18) came last season for big league Corendon Kinheim. The infielder made his debut on Sunday, April 26 in the main body when in the eighth inning of the game against Mr.. Cocker HCAW was used as a pinch runner. It was the only game of Hato in the league so far. The rest of the season he played for the Rookie League team in the big league Haarlem.
Hato played 26 games for this team, which he produced no less than 44 hits (.403). He scored 32 points and led six p.m. teammates on the plate. Moreover knew Hato four p.m. to steal bases.”
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
Hold onto those prospects for the mid-season trade and hold onto those dollars for the big contract:
[Back in November, speaking to ESPN's Jerry Crasnick, Josh Johnson's agent Matt Sosnick ruled out the chance of the Marlins signing his client long-term this winter:
"Based on our conversations, there's no chance of doing a long-term deal with the Marlins. We made it clear that it was going to be this year or it wasn't going to happen. It was now or never. And the Marlins agreed."]
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, nevermind I didn’t read the rest of it about them “bridging the gap.” Oh well I have to check out for a bit, enjoy your debates people!
trs86
12/17/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
: So, for you, does your approach change in certain situations? Say, you come to bat with nobody on compared to when guys are on, what do you physically or mentally different that makes it different?
Jeff Francoeur: Absolutely, if nobody is on base, do I want to get something going? Yeah, you wanna be selective and see what you can do. But, if there’s a guy on third with one out, I’m just trying to hit the ball to second base or to the shortstop if he’s back and get the run in. And, if that causes my OBP to be 10 points lower than, you know, I’m not that concerned about it.
Matthew Cerrone: As a player, what do you make of things like Sabermetrics and these comprehensive statistics, what do they mean to you as a player?
Jeff Francoeur: Nothing… They were talking about certain guys, I’m not gonna name names, but he was the ‘third-best left fielder of the year,’ and I was like, ‘Where is that?’ It doesn’t go together to me… Let’s talk about your range, and where your playing. I remember when I was playing with Andruw Jones and he didn’t get to balls over his head, and I’d say, ‘It’s because he was playing second base… and he never saw a ball drop in front of him.’ So, I think it’s different for different people. Some of that can be good statistical information, but as a player I don’t pay attention to any of that.
trs86
12/17/2009-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
Have at it Wanny.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Nah. I don’t expect him to pay attention to stats.
Someday I expect to him to pay attention to swinging at good pitches, which will improve his entire game including the frequency with which he reaches base, even if that’s not his intention.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I was wondering if he knows what this phrase means: “you wanna be selective”.
trs86
12/17/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
Small sample for his career but perhaps he knows what he is talking about slightly in a way round about way.
In 297 PA last year with no one on he hit: .305 .333 .467 .800
Certainly not stellar but it could be that he was more selective. LOL.
trs86
12/17/2009-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
Should read: Small sample size compared to his career…
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Amazin’ Avenue had a lively thread about this yesterday:
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/12/16/1203759/jeff-francoeur-says-sabermetrics#comments
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
quote of the year from that site is:
That muxt have been one hell of an interview.
Asking the questions we have some guy that knows absolutely nothing about analyzing baseball but registered a really good domain name. Answering the questions we have someone who knows absolutely nothing about analyzing baseball but can hit a baseball pretty far on the off chance his hacking make contact and can throw one quite well. The subject matter appears to include methods of analysis of baseball, which both parties seem to know nothing about. Riveting, I’m sure…
“We’re just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody’s laughing”
-Dallas Green
by Schmidtxc on Dec 16, 2009 6:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
trs86
12/17/2009-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
I was going to post it but I thought maybe I bashed him too much. That and I was afraid you would compare us again and send my running to the bleachers.
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
?
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
Well, saying Francoeur knows nothing about analyzing baseball is a pretty asinine thing to say….the guy has done nothing but play baseball at the highest levels his whole life…
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-4:10pm at 4:10 pm (UTC -4)
I see Gina from the mattsblog is on amazin avenue. if anyone here is a member they should try to invite her over here.
dirtysanchez
12/17/2009-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
i miss gina…
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
For TRS I agree it’s not much of a debate, I just thought as I said above it was a “lively thread.”
Wanny I am not a member but I read there often and it seems like every person with whom we used to engage with lively discussions at Mattsblog that didn’t come here wound up there.
I believe I recall seeing old fave names besides Gina like Sylar, fxcarden and meddler, and even the old Phillie troll East Fallowfield shows up there.
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
Gina was the only other Net fan I have encountered in my Met blogging days…
trs86
12/17/2009-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
I tried to read it, hard to follow but to me not much of a debate there. More bashing Frenchy for not paying attention to stats.
dirtysanchez
12/17/2009-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
Well i dont think its the players job to really worry about stats to the extent that fans do. His job is to find a way to win and im sure the stats he worries about are related to the opposing pitcher and scouting reports. As far as his WAR and stuff like that, im sure it would be difficult to find a player that really pays attention to that stuff.
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
I’m off to take my last final, Professional Responsibility. I’m professional and responsible, so I should be okay.
GravediggerHebner
12/17/2009-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
Mr. “Igarashi swallows” calls himself “professional.”
Kingman 26
12/17/2009-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
GOOD LUCK!!
The world will be far better off with you as an attorney!
wannybackstra
12/17/2009-6:25pm at 6:25 pm (UTC -4)
Good luck, Case. But from one attorney to a future one: Don’t do it!
CaseStreet
12/17/2009-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks guys. Now I’m free, until mid-January. I’ve got some ideas for some posts I’ve been meaning to do, so I’ll start on those.
Wanny, it’s too late. I’m in my 4th year (part-time), though I hope within the next few years to work on my own running an immigration practice.