The Reyes interview was just what  I needed.
Monday was bad day and watching Reyes cheered me up a bit. I liked the way he looked for he was confident and spoke well about himself and the Mets.  He didn’t make any predictions and had that same old Reyes smile.Â
It made me wish for Opening Day.
And then I tuned in to ESPN and saw what I dreaded the most. The Roy Halladay Press Conference. The masochist in me insisted on watching the “happy to pitch with a winner” Roy Halladay and the all smiles GM Ruben Amaro Jr. It was tough. There is Roy with his new hat and jersey on and there’s Ruben right next to him making sure it fits.Â
It wasn’t until a question came from the press core regarding keeping Lee and adding Halladay just for the upcoming season that I realized that the Phillies had made a mistake. Lee was under contract for one more year, they could have kept him and then offered him arbitration in 2010 and if he refused, the Phillies would have received a draft pick if he signed somewhere else. Ruben opted to trade Lee because he knew Lee didn’t want to stay and the since the Phillies  needed to replenish their already semi-depleted minors trading Lee now would do just that. But for a moment, they did consider keeping both pitchers.
The Phillies could have had Lee and Halladay. I know that the minor leagues are important to stock but come on!  That’s the Pennant right there, and possibly another World Series title.  Both of these pitchers can carve up the NL East and any World Series opponent.
Instead the Phillies left the door open. By trading Lee, they basically have the same rotation as last year.  Â
This is an opportunity for Omar to get another starter. A workhorse, a pitcher who will stay healthy and give the rotation some stability. Lord knows he has a lot to choose from. He could pick up and  rehab Wang and Sheets. He could spend some money on Pineiro. He could try for the hometown discounted Marquis or perhaps trade for Harang or Arroyo. Santana matches up with Halladay, which one of these pitchers match up with Hamels?Â
This has to happen. The Phillies missed a golden chance to dominate the East and the Mets must take advantage of it.
232 comments
trs86
12/19/2009-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Good morning all.
Just for a moment lets assume the worst that Bay nor Holliday will end up here. (IMO not likely). What would our next strategy be? Here is one I thought of in my sleep.
Sign a few of the older guys looking for one year deals. Overpay slightly to make sure they are one year or that they have an option with a buyout for next year.
Sign Vlad, Dye, Delgado, and 2 of the 1 year pitchers.
The total cost of all that may be less than we think pending incentives.
Vlad and Dye could split some time in the OF keeping each other healthy and Dye has already said he would play a little 1B too giving us a old man LH RH platoon at 1B and sending Murphy to the bench until one of them gets injured. Yes the move could backfire in our face and we could be left with 3 old injured players again. However, if they all stay healthy who would be upset with the additional offense almost guaranteed if they stay healthy?
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
Hijacker.
I think that just by “staying healthy” these guys may not give enough anyway. Vlad is a shell of himself, Dye fell off so precipitously in the 2nd half, at his age, I consider that a warning sign even though I know we shouldn’t judge a player on one season, let alone half of one, and Delgado is old coming off a similar procedure that the much younger ARod did come back fine from, but Carlos at his age is no ARod at his.
I think not only would they have to “stay healthy” but all three would have to “exceed expectations” and I can’t plan a season counting on 3 old men to exceed expectations.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Not worth arguing this one because it would never happen but I disagree. Those guys have proven track records and Vlad and Dye are only 35. The key would be that they would all be one year offers and we would not be overpaying Bay or Holliday long-term.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Since you brought it up then decided it’s not worth arguing
I won’t bother to mention that Guerrero is in a two year decline of OPS from the lofty 2007 number of .950 to .886 then .794, and in games played from 150 to 143 to 100, that he is two years removed from his last All-Star game and Silver Slugger selections, let alone is in a 5 year decline in SLG with last year’s career low .460.
Nor will I mention that he has been a negative defender by the voodoo method of UZR/150 every year since 2003 except 2005 when he managed to barely scrape positivity with a plus 0.5 rating. And I certainly won’t point out that number of games played in the OF have gone down and those played as DH have gone up each of the last three years.
I absolutely won’t note that according to fangraphs dollar value system Vlad has produced less value than his contract the last three years.
I won’t point out that while I worry less about Dye offensively because his decline is in a much shorter span and to be fair to him I can’t judge him on 1/2 of one season offensively, but defensively he’s only made 15 career starts in LF and those grade out negative, and in his primary position of RF he has been negative overall for his career with no individual positive season since 2004, nor by fangraphs methods has he met the value of his contract since 2006, and now we’re going to ask him to play a position that he’s played 1 game at, in 2005, if he plays 1B.
I won’t note that Delgado has been a very consistent offensive producer his whole career with the exception of 2007 and was doing quite well last year until he went out so of the three he’s the one I would most believe will succeed offensively, but he will turn 38 next June and he is coming off a surgery that the only example we have to judge by is the PED using, younger ARod so at best it’s a question mark.
Then there’s the more difficult to judge aspect of his clubhouse influence and it’s potential negative impact on a changing of the guard of the leadership of the team, as well as fangraphs determination that Delgado last met or exceeded the value of his contract in 2005 with the Marlins, and is a negative defender at 1B.
Luckily I don’t have to do any of that because it’s not worth arguing about since it will never happen.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
LOL, only one stat I have to show because I would have to do as much work as you otherwise.
Vlad’s 2nd half: .300 .347 .498 .844 with 11 HR.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
But if you like you could sub out Damon for one of them because his market is crashing. Say hello to Abreu part 2.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
You’re absolutely right about Vlad’s 2nd half bat, and he was also excellent in the post season.
I just wish we had the DH as an option as it would likely keep him healthier and in the lineup hitting like that.
trs86
12/19/2009-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
That was the thought by bringing in 2 of them. If we can’t get Bay or Holliday then I really don’t know what other options we really have.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Gonzo I follow your premise and it makes some sense, but I wonder, is the door open any wider than it has been the last 3 years?
I believe the Halladay/Lee exchange is largely a lateral move. Halladay is the better, more consistent pitcher, but Lee has “done it” in the Philly pressure cooker, in the pennant race and post season whereas Halladay has not, that’s why I call it lateral.
But if I think it’s a lateral move then I also think the Phillies are just as good and just as dangerous as they were before. And “those” Phillies finished ahead of the Mets for the last 3 years.
I would agree that the Phillies left the door open if the Mets had significantly improved their starting pitching. So far at least, they have not. In my opinion, until they do, the Phillies have the edge.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Not to throw negativity in here, but I see the Phillies having the edge until we show we can win in September when it counts.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Obviously. The
trs86
12/19/2009-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Sorry
Champ is the champ until dethroned.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
That’s the reason I have always hated this team to beat junk. In 2007 the Mets were the team to beat and the Phillies beat us. Since then the Phillies have been the team to beat.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
“Since then the Phillies have been the team to beat.”
OK!!!
Now I have something to throw back next time you suggest that I am a secret Phillie fan/lover/worshipper/defender/apologist/chronicler/stalker/follower/rooter.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
You forgot sycophant/submissive/groupie/cuckold/prison wife 8)
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
HA!!
Those would indeed have made it far better!
trs86
12/19/2009-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
The Mets have to have a middle of the order hitter and a middle of the rotation starter before they can compete with Philly. Then they will need health.
fongy2
12/19/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Correction, they 1st
need to stay healthy.
I think Gonzo missed the point of flipping
Lee for Halladay was to insure that with their core they’d be
able to push for another championship
not just next year but
in 2011 as well.
This ties into them picking up JRoll’s option.
To them it didn’t make sense to gamble
with Lee for next season and risk losing
him to FA.
The draft choices are fine but would either
be Cliff Lee? And if so, when? In 2017?
How would that benefit
this group of Phillies?
I think the bigger question mark about
that deal is will Halladay be able to
do for The Phils what
Lee did the 2nd half and especially in the
post season?
He’s a better pitcher no doubt but how much better?
Additionaly, both Drabek and Taylor could be pretty big time players down the
road. So, it would seem to me that given these things and paying Halladay the
extention, The Phillies did gamble BUT they want another
ring in 2010 and/or2011 so,I guess
the gamble is worth it
to them.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Could they not have came to terms with Lee for less?
fongy2
12/19/2009-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
It was reported all over that,he wanted to play
out the
season
and explore
FA.
At that point,they’d be gambling not knowing
what he may end up costing even if they could keep him.
Guess they figured it made more sense to get Doc if they could and lock him up
beyond next season.
trs86
12/19/2009-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, interesting that they could not have offered Lee something like a 5/85 extension and got something done. Oh well.
trs86
12/19/2009-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
I guess my point is how much were those prospects worth in cash as well? To me it would have been worth blowing Lee away to keep the prospects. However, maybe they did try and do that and Lee just did not like Philly.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Rational post at Metsblog:
Priorities:
1) Sign Holliday or Bay (I agree with Matt, prefer Holliday)
2) Find two more starting pitchers (trade for Harang, sign Garland or Washburn)
3) If Molina doesn’t answer on the 2yr/$5MM, go after either Barajas or Snyder (trade)
4) Find two more arms for the pen (Dotel and Bemiel)
5) Check with the Cubs to see if they are still interested in Castillo (I wouldn’t hold my breath on this one)
Once all those moves are complete (it could take until January), then solve the 1B situation. If there is no more money available, just let Murphy play there. Who knows, maybe Ike Davis will be ready by the summer. But having Murphy at 1B won’t hurt.
If there is still money available, offer either Delgado or Glaus an incentive type deal. It will be low risk / High reward type of deal that could really improve the Mets lineup.
Lineup:
SS Reyes
2B Castillo
3B Wright
CF Beltran
LF Holliday or Bay
1B Murphy / Delgado or Glaus
RF Francouer
C Molina
Rotation:
1) Santana
2) Harang
3) Washburn or Garland
4) Pelfrey
5) O Perez
jaydh
12/19/2009-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
what happens to maine in this scenario? imo, we only need to get 1 starter and i think harang is the way to go(maybe casillo and prospects for harang+phillips?). Also, since we are most likely going to sign a typeA(bay), why not sign valverde as well for the pen. Harang, Valverde, Bay, possibly Molina and possibly delgado. That would be a good offseason to me.
gonzowill
12/19/2009-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
I like the idea of signing delgado. Give Davis another year in the minors. This Bay signing is out of control. Who does he think he is Stan the Man. Who is the mystery team? This Molina business also has to end.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
How is it out of control? Seems like a normal negotiation to me. Why would Bay rush to sign?
gonzowill
12/19/2009-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t like the “mystery team” thing. It sounds like a boras lie.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
A Boras lie??
When has THAT ever happened??
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
I mentioned this yesterday and no one commented so either no one cares or I typed it in invisible mode.
The Cincy-Dodgers deal for Harang “is dead” and “was never a good match” per various reports from actual beat writers. The Cincy-Mets Arroyo rumor has not been reported by any beat reporters and not picked up by any MLBTR or Metsblog type places so I assume it’s garbage.
That brings us back to the idea the Cincy still wants/needs to shed payroll and that viable reporters have stated that Harang is available.
I doubt very much that Luis Castillo gets sent to Cincinnati, I just don’t see how they want or need him, so the fantasy of shipping him out and getting Brandon Phillips back, while very desirable in every aspect, seems terribly unlikely.
But Harang’s availability and the need for the Mets to upgrade their rotation are about as real as it gets. The Castillo/Phillips aspect aside, can Harang to the Mets happen, and if so, how?
trs86
12/19/2009-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I would much rather have Arroyo and would increase the prospects to make it happen. Harang’s 2011 option becomes guaranteed if traded.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent point on the guaranteed option versus the prospects. I only mention Harang because he’s the guy who Cincy is seemingly more inclined to get rid of based on that he’s been involved in recent rumors from more reliable sources.
Big positive IMO for Arroyo is he has a ring and has succeeded in the pressure cooker of a northeast rabid market.
Big positive IMO for Harang is playing on this Met team I think it’s valuable that he strikes out more guys and gives up more fly balls, less ground balls than Arroyo. If Phillips somehow is included that becomes less important and makes Arroyo a better fit.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I doubt he’ll have any breaking news but after the 12:20pm sports update the FAN is going to have Eddie Coleman on for a segment.
http://player.play.it/player/player.html?v=4.10.2&id=62&onestat=wfan
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Well Ed didn’t offer a whole lot that I found interesting.
He doesn’t have any idea what direction the Mets might go with C if Molina doesn’t take the Mets terms. Could be Santos/Blanco, could be Barajas or Olivo/Blanco, or they could pull a rabbit out of a hat.
Both Ed and the host (“the Bull”) agreed that they believe Holliday is the better all around player than Bay but see the Mets eventually winding up with Bay.
Both felt the Mets priority this off season should’ve been significant upgrade to pitching over offense and Ed isn’t sure where the Mets are going for pitching, they both seemed to like Garland of the remaining FAs for his durability and consistency.
Ed says of all the prospects sent around in the Halladay deal, “who knows but the one a team may look back on and think they should’ve kept him is Michael Taylor.”
Then “the Bull” (a cubs fan) asked Bob Heussler (Mr. Met) if he would take Carlos Silva for Luis Castillo and Mr. Met said “You can keep Silva.”
.gonzowill
12/19/2009-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Why would Lee want to leave? The national league was good to him, he could probably win 17 games or more, the phillies might go to the post season again. It must have been a money thing. Do you think the Phillies got cheap? I can’t see it being all the money they gave Halladay.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
“From what I can gather” the Phillies approached Lee’s agent about an extension and whatever the agent said in response they interpreted as “my client will be testing the free agent waters and expecting a contract in the Johan Santana/CC Sabathia range” because after that meeting the Phils immediately set in motion the trade for Halladay.
Somehow the Phillies came to understand that Halladay was so desperate to leave Toronto for what he considered a contender for a championship (i.e. not the Mets) that he was willing to accept a shorter in years contract. Yes a 3 year, $60 mil contract is a lot of money on top of this year’s $15 mil, but that’s not a lot compared to 6 or 7 years and $130-$150 million. I wouldn’t say they “got cheap” I think they just preferred the certainty of 4 years and the shorter commitment to the uncertainty of Lee leaving them high and dry next year or his demands for more money annually and overall than Halladay seemed to want.
To be fair to Lee since then both he and his agent have said publicly that their demands have been mis-characterized and exaggerated.
trs86
12/19/2009-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
Halladay’s is 4/75 with a good chance at an option to make it basically 5/100. Seems like Lee would have easily fit under those guidelines.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-6:56pm at 6:56 pm (UTC -4)
5/100 benefits the Phils 2 ways, it’s ‘only’ 5 years and the annual value is ‘only’ $20 mil.
The Johan/Sabathia deals that Lee allegedly wanted to at worst equal are:
Johan 6/137.5 which is a year longer and $22.92 annually, plus $25 mil club option for 7th year;
Sabathia 7/161 which is 2 years longer and $23 annually, so I think Halladay even at 5/100 is the better deal for a club.
trs86
12/19/2009-7:07pm at 7:07 pm (UTC -4)
No way Lee gets those rates though and he knows it. I still think either they did not like Lee or he did not like them.
CaseStreet
12/19/2009-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
MLB 2k7 likes bay, sheets, Molina, delgado
sheets is the most intriguing to me. He is a game changer when he’s on. Too bad the brew crew broke him. You’d figure he would be healthy after 1 year.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed totally, and if healthy, he could be that 2 in the great 1-2 punch we need.
If Omar can also get a Marquis/Garland/etc. type, or somehow trade for Lowe, then we can afford to take the risk with Sheets.
Johan, Sheets, Someone New, then Maine/Pelf/Ollie/Niese/Nieve?
I think that is more than enough to work with, especially with the potentially excellent offesne we might have with
Reyes/Castillo/Wright/Beltran/Bay/Delgado/Frenchy/Molina.
Or Frenchy 6th and Molina and Murph 7-8.
oleosmirf
12/19/2009-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
agree although instead of signing a Marquis/Garland type why dont the Mets just package Maine and get Harang or Arroyo. That way in case Sheets goes down you still got a #2 SP.
Johan, Sheets, Harang/Arroyo, Pelfrey, Ollie/Nieve/Niese/whomever
even if they just sign part time players and dont bring back Delgado or get rid of Castillo, just signing someone like Capps to be the 8th inning guy and thats a winning team right there…
trs86
12/19/2009-6:25pm at 6:25 pm (UTC -4)
Regardless of what FA pitcher we get we should still be looking at trade candidates.
trs86
12/19/2009-6:25pm at 6:25 pm (UTC -4)
Problem is Sheets was looking for 12 million. He should not get half of that.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-6:34pm at 6:34 pm (UTC -4)
When and if the Mets ever sign Bay. The last thing I want to hear from him is how it was never about the money and how happy he is to sign with New York.
At least do me the favor of sparing me the barf fest on that notion.
I promise come opening day all I will care about is can he drive runs in from 3rd with no outs and also not drop a flyball to end a game vs any team but more importantly vs one of our hated rivals.
trs86
12/19/2009-6:38pm at 6:38 pm (UTC -4)
I think people get confused that baseball is not a game to them. It is their lively hood. I can’t think of many jobs in my profession that I would not be enticed by a 200% pay increase.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-6:54pm at 6:54 pm (UTC -4)
No I am not confused I fully grasp its a business 1st. That is why I ask to just not insult my intelligence with any other B.S. by trying to suggest it is anything other than just about the money.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-6:58pm at 6:58 pm (UTC -4)
Mr. NJ, if he doesn’t say “It’s been my dream to play in Citi Field since I was a little boy” (despite the fact that’s impossible) I will be very disappointed.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-6:59pm at 6:59 pm (UTC -4)
LoL
trs86
12/19/2009-7:05pm at 7:05 pm (UTC -4)
That is now what I mean NJ. I am saying that the ones who get upset when they find out it’s about money. 99% of those transactions are about money.
trs86
12/19/2009-6:50pm at 6:50 pm (UTC -4)
LOL and I thought it was bad on Metsblog.
This from the Daily:
Chris Pizz—-YOU ARE SOME KIND OF FOOL !!!! THESE LYING B-A-S-T-A-R-D-S ARE B.S.ING EVEN ONE AND THEIR MOTHER ON HOW THEY ARE SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING AND WITH A C-R-A-P PITCHING STAFF THAT WE HAVE NOW AND THE LACK OF DUMB A-S-S MOVES OMASS HAS MADE SO FAR , DO YOU REALLY THINK THE MESS OF A TEAM CAN COMPETE ??? WAKE THE “F ” UP ALREADY !!!! THIS TEAM HAS GOTTEN WORSE NOT BETTER !!AND YES THE MESS ARE MY TEAM AND IF I DON’T LIKE HOW THESE DUMB , CLUELESS SON OF A B-I-T-C-H-S FOR OWNERSHIP IS RUNNING THIS TEAM OR SHOULD I SAY RUINING THIS TEAM –THAT’S MY RIGHT !!! AND LEAST I HAVE A BRAIN TO RALIZED WHEN SOMEONE IS TRYING TO TAKE YOUR $$$$$ AND TELL THEM TO F-OFF !! BUT NOT YOU , YOU ENJOY GETTING F-U-C-K-E-D !!!! WAKE UP MAN , YOU HEADS IN THE GROUND !!!
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-6:59pm at 6:59 pm (UTC -4)
One can only wonder what did Chris say to generate such a reply.
trs86
12/19/2009-7:09pm at 7:09 pm (UTC -4)
Quite entertaining:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2009/12/elmer-officially-sticks.html#comments
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-7:18pm at 7:18 pm (UTC -4)
Lol that Chris guy’s line about the “gray area” sounds like Grave to me should we be concerned Grave that you may be moonlighting on us?
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-7:38pm at 7:38 pm (UTC -4)
That Chris guy has his heart in the right place but the line where he defends Omar because he says Omar is “doing a great job this off season by not throwing handfuls of cash at all the biggest names on the market” makes me flinch and not in a good way (not that there is a good way to flinch).
trs86
12/19/2009-7:41pm at 7:41 pm (UTC -4)
Of course I happen to agree with Chris here. I do however feel that Omar gets one of the big three like always. However, I disagree that we should have outbid the Redsox for Lackey or actually overbid on any of this year’s terrible class. Anyway, we have been here.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:11pm at 9:11 pm (UTC -4)
I think we (The Mets) should make it our Mantra that we will never outbid for a player and that in actuality players should want to play for us so much, that they would take below market value for the privilege.
That is just one guy’s opinion of course.
You think it has a chance of catching on?
trs86
12/19/2009-9:14pm at 9:14 pm (UTC -4)
Nope considering we don’t do that. Considering that we overpaid for Castillo, Perez, Beltran, Pedro, Johan…
I just don’t see anyone in this class worth overpaying for.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:25pm at 9:25 pm (UTC -4)
Neither do the Mets at this point.
trs86
12/19/2009-9:33pm at 9:33 pm (UTC -4)
Touche, I would be ok with 5 years for Bay if the cost per year comes down. Same with Holliday I would go 6 years if the cost per year comes down. Otherwise I would call their bluff. No one is bending over for these guys.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-7:12pm at 7:12 pm (UTC -4)
W-A-R-N-I-N-G Sarcastic Post Zone W-A-R-N-I-N-G
Considering that the impression of late has been that
players like Halladay and Lackey wasn’t exactly
doing back-flips at the idea of joining the Mets.
Maybe we should look into doing some type of
promotion to show reasons why players should want to
come to New York.
W-A-R-N-I-N-G Sarcastic Post Zone W-A-R-N-I-N-G
metsfan4decades
12/19/2009-7:59pm at 7:59 pm (UTC -4)
Sarcastic? I’m inclined to believe this might very well be true.
And Bah….if players don’t want to come to the greatest stage there is to play baseball, then the heck with them…
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:14pm at 9:14 pm (UTC -4)
4D I luv ya.
darknova306
12/19/2009-9:38pm at 9:38 pm (UTC -4)
“the greatest stage there is to play baseball”
You mean the Bronx…?
Was that too cynical? :p
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
Sadly I exhaled as I read your post at the reality that their is truth in those words.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:02pm at 10:02 pm (UTC -4)
Eh….maybe the 1996–2000 teams.
History will view the 2009 Yankee title precisely the same way Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire’s records are viewed—as tainted, unfair, and completely bogus.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:04pm at 10:04 pm (UTC -4)
I doubt that. History has never looked at payrolls. Do we even know how much more the Yankees of the 20′s spent?
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent question…and it is nothing remotely like today–I have looked into this, as part of a future piece about how the 86 Mets were built on the draft, great trades, and minor free agent signings…their payroll was 8th largest…the 96, 99, and 00 Yanks was highest, by not by a margin remotely close to 2009; in 98 they were 2nd…the 76 Reds were 3rd; 84 Tigers 10th; nowhere is there anything like 2009.
Here is 1929:
1 New York Yankees $365,741
2 Chicago Cubs $310,299
3 New York Giants $291,368
4 Philadelphia Athletics $255,231
5 Philadelphia Phillies $250,000
6 Brooklyn Dodgers $245,309
7 Boston Braves $238,260
8 Washington Nationals $231,618
9 Cincinnati Reds $224,655
10 Chicago White Sox $220,000
11 St. Louis Cardinals $219,815
12 Cleveland Indians $215,523
13 St. Louis Browns $200,312
14 Detroit Tigers $185,771
15 Boston Red Sox $171,260
16 Pittsburgh Pirates $140,422
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:15pm at 10:15 pm (UTC -4)
No matter what anyone says, the current Yankee braintrust knows they cannot make the postseason without being the top spender, and as 2006–2008 show, they cannot win a title without outspending the number 2 team by 50%.
Their farm is a joke, as is their front office.
And their 2009 title is absolutely meaningless.
darknova306
12/19/2009-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
Their 2009 title means they beat everyone else. How is that meaningless? Calling that meaningless is just sour grapes. It’s a championship. Since 2004, the Red Sox have held the record for largest payroll to win a WS, yet they’ve been happy about breaking the curse. None of us will care how big the payroll is if we just win. This whole argument is meaningless. A win is a win. Let’s do this! Let’s go Mets!
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
The Red Sox have never had a payroll near the 2009 Yankees, nor has anyone else—not even remotely close–what are you talking about here? It is totally wrong. In 2004, the Red Sox were the 2nd highest spender–maybe 50-60 million behind the Yanks. In 2007 it was about 190 mil for the Yanks and about 140 mil for the Red Sox.
The 2009 Yankees spent 50% more than the Mets and the next highest spenders.
Take away CC and Tex and they STILL have the highest payroll, and of course they don’t win the WS.
The 2009 Yanks did not win on anything except outspending–only baseball among the major sports allows anything this ridiculous.
I never want the Mets to win this way, and as my numbers above quite clearly show, many all-time great teams–if not almost all–won by doing things well at many levels, not by simply outspending.
It is not sour grapes at all.
The Yankees in 2009 were in a league of their own, due to their revenue, and their revenue only. Their farm system is a joke, they don’t make good trades, they just buy the best players at every chance.
prismo
12/19/2009-7:57pm at 7:57 pm (UTC -4)
Has anyone heard an update on Joel Sherman’s accusation that Omar’s bid for Bay was undercutting on purpose to make people buy tickets?
Seeing as how Omar’s bid is still the highest out there, and will likely remain so, I feel that Sherman should be flogged repeatedly with a rusty pipe.
metsfan4decades
12/19/2009-8:01pm at 8:01 pm (UTC -4)
LOL
The season just cannot start fast enough. Hopefully, that will put an end to some of the more ridiculous speculation out there.
And when the heck is it gonna stop snowing?
stickguy
12/19/2009-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
July.
CaseStreet
12/19/2009-8:50pm at 8:50 pm (UTC -4)
So reds restructured rolen’s contract saving them $5m next year. Do I interpret this as they don’t need to trade a pitcher anymore or they are trying to save every dollar
trs86
12/19/2009-9:13pm at 9:13 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, Reds mystery team in on Bay.
stickguy
12/19/2009-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
hey TRS, how is your weather right now?
I have a serious desire to move to Charlotte. Having about 20″ of snow at my house already, with more coming down fast, is just making it worse.
trs86
12/19/2009-9:50pm at 9:50 pm (UTC -4)
Charlotte got a cold rain. I live about 30 miles north and got 6 inches.
stickguy
12/19/2009-9:14pm at 9:14 pm (UTC -4)
it helps them, but likely allows them to make some other moves.
I really, really think they want to move one of the 2 big $$ SPs, although maybe now they don’t have to move a good player like Philips.
At this point, there isn’t anyone else I really want from them, so if Omar can get Arroyo or Harang for a bag of used jocks by taking on much of the salary, grab one.
Then, I think they should look at Garland if the terms are OK, assuming they still want to add another SP (no guarantee they do though IMO).
I also hope Molina fades away, or at worst, ends up being 1 year guarantee (one can dream), an off season of:
garland, harang, bay, molina, blanco, Toyota, and 1 more pen arm (Everts is my pick), and don’t forget, adding Reyes to the mix.
that is a pretty big turnover, and frankly, gives them a pretty good team. certainly post-season level, if they can stay moderately healthy and can overcome Jerry at the helm.
heck, form the list of new guys above, if you add 1 more guy (say carter or garko), that is 8 new players, so just about a full 1/3 of the roster turned over.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:38pm at 9:38 pm (UTC -4)
So the Mets want Bay but won’t overpay. OK sounds like a reasonable way to do business.
They are not sure if they want Marquis.
They may want Sheets but won’t overpay. Again sounds like a reasonable way to do business.
They want Bay but won’t overpay also. Again sounds like a reasonable way to do business.
They are interested in Holliday but like Bay more. OK also.
They’d love to make a trade to bring in a blue chipper but don’t have the right chips to do it as of yet. Ok also.
Are there any players that one could reasonably expect Omar to get that would improve the team without Omar having to overpay for?
Anyone know where the blueprints to Omar’s plan is?
Is it on Thesmokinggun.com site?
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:39pm at 9:39 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets are great businessman but suck at winning championships.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:40pm at 9:40 pm (UTC -4)
How many will bite I wonder?
stickguy
12/19/2009-10:46pm at 10:46 pm (UTC -4)
this was an impressive example of posting.
you responded to your response to your comment.
Call that a triple!
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-9:42pm at 9:42 pm (UTC -4)
TMZ.com has Omar’s plans from several angles, and in some of the shots, a drunken, naked Lindsay Lohan and a cute girlfriend are looking them over….
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:46pm at 9:46 pm (UTC -4)
I’m surprised MLB Network hasn’t hired TMZ’s best reporters also. Since they are just about taken someone from everywhere else.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:48pm at 9:48 pm (UTC -4)
W-A-R-N-I-N-G Sarcastic Post Zone W-A-R-N-I-N-G
On another note I hear those CitiFied tours are really drumming up ticket sales.
W-A-R-N-I-N-G Sarcastic Post Zone W-A-R-N-I-N-G
trs86
12/19/2009-9:51pm at 9:51 pm (UTC -4)
Not me, I am happy with how the off-season is progressing so I will just agree.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-9:54pm at 9:54 pm (UTC -4)
Queue the music from the movie “Highlander” with Sean Connery’s voice saying “There can only be one”
trs86
12/19/2009-9:59pm at 9:59 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, get back to me in late January and see if I am still happy NJ. Too early for me to get upset. Did not want to do what it would have taken to get Lackey even if he wanted to come here and we had no shot at Halladay. Two of the 3 big name FA are still on the market and their market shrinks everyday. Currently the Mets have the highest bid on Bay and have let Holliday know they are interested. Lets have this discussion in a couple of weeks and see where we stand.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
Like I said from the get go it’s put up or shut up. Omar’s 9 lives if he ever had that many have been used up.
Come Opening Day we may be singing the praises of Omar but as of now he gets no praise from me until I see otherwise.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
No one is singing any praises and almost all of us know this is put up or shut up for a lot of Mets this year including Omar, Jerry and even a few players.
But what is the point in being so negative in mid-December and complaining that they have not spent any money yet. It’s early and all the big FA besides Lackey and uh… Figgins are still there.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:20pm at 10:20 pm (UTC -4)
I will sing Omar’s praises—he took over a rotten, lethargic team filled with washed up vets and crappy young players, and in 2 years we were in the NLCS.
The 2007 and 2008 teams were flawed, but were in 1st place almost all year.
2009 was a historic debacle due to injuries.
Jerry is a joke and I wish he had been fired for Bobby V, Teufel, Backman, Davey J, Buck Showalter, or just about anyone.
Omar is perhaps the most unfairly maligned exec in Met history.
Who is gone so far that we wanted? Lackey and Halladay, and neither wanted to be here. This is Omar’s fault?
We still are more than likely to get the big bat we didn’t get last year, and it will be a better one than Abreu, Dunn, or Ibanez, we are likely to get a catching upgrade offensively and defensively, we already have a likely bullpen upgrade, and there are many starters still out there to be gotten.
And, if healthy, we already have one of the best 5 man cores in baseball.
Thank you, I will be here all week.
darknova306
12/19/2009-9:56pm at 9:56 pm (UTC -4)
I’m definitely liking that we’re not giving in and adding a 5th year for Bay. And we’re holding firm against a 3rd year for fatso.. I mean Molina. :p
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
I think what we need to do is just resign Sheffield and Tatis.
Think of all the money we can save and allow FMART and Nieuenweis to fight it out for that position.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:02pm at 10:02 pm (UTC -4)
LOL NJ, I think you have made your point. Mets are cheap and don’t want to spend money. That’s just not consistent with how the Mets operate. They always spend tons of money just not always on the right people. Are you sure any of the guys this year are the right people?
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:03pm at 10:03 pm (UTC -4)
Not giving Lackey all that money may have been the smartest thing Omar ever did.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
Actually not giving Zito that money when people complained they were cheap and not giving Lowe all that money when people complained they were cheap were the smartest contract moves in my opinion already. Lackey may also turn out to be a good decision. Does not always work for the Mets. They overbid on Pedro and it never worked out wins wise. They did not get Vlad because of health concerns and it backfired. To me I think they have valid reasons for making the decisions and most deal more with the overall impact on the team current and future than they do a few million here or there.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:22pm at 10:22 pm (UTC -4)
If they were doing something else with that great acumen of theirs and the resulting savings that helped the organization I would be much more excited about that.
Maybe, maybe they are now with Collins and Krivsky on the scene, but it’ll be at least 6 years before we really know.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:27pm at 10:27 pm (UTC -4)
Nope they inturn mis-spent it on others such as Perez and Castillo but also made wise decisions on guys like Johan and in my opinion Krod.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
Did I say they are cheap?
You misunderstand me I just don’t no longer feel Minaya has a clear vision of what he is doing. One thing he did good was spend money I agree.
I proposed the Sheffield scenario because I believe many would be content with that than signing Bay for a 5th year. I wanted to see if anyone would bite.
Now this off season He doesn’t want to over spend that is ok but I don’t care about money as I have said time and time again it’s the fact he has done nothing to shore up the need to upgrade our starting rotation up to this point that is an issue to me at least.
At the risk of repeating myself it’s put up or shut up. Do what is needed to be done anything less will not do.
If people want to wait till Opening day I have no problem with that and they are well within their right to do so I just choose not to wait till Opening day if I am dissatisfied with Omar I will let it be heard until he proves otherwise.
This idea of are you sure or not sure which player is right or which player is wrong is silly at best. The reason we are here is to share our opinion on who is right or wrong. The answer no one but God himself knows until the season has ended and we see the results. That doesn’t stop people from giving their opinion, heck you should know that is one of your best traits.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:44pm at 10:44 pm (UTC -4)
How are you upset with what he has done so far? That is the part I am confused on. What have you wanted him to do so far?
One more question:
“Now this off season He doesn’t want to over spend”
We don’t even know if that is true. Does any GM ever WANT to overspend. But that’s not the point. He still has plenty of time to overspend if that is what you are looking for.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:12pm at 11:12 pm (UTC -4)
You need to try and simplify things you are looking way too hard at it.
Minaya has yet to do anything this off season to make me believe he has a plan.
Minaya has yet to overspend when he does which I have already said he most probably will have to overspend to get the player he wants.
It’s not about the money it’s about doing what has to be done to improve the rotation.
Just keep it simple. Has he improved the rotation? No. Will he? He better or will the next GM of the NY Mets please stand up.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:19pm at 11:19 pm (UTC -4)
Again, you are mentioning 2 different things.
“Minaya has yet to do anything this off season to make me believe he has a plan.”
“It’s not about the money it’s about doing what has to be done to improve the rotation.”
1) Does Omar have a plan that he and the Mets believe will make the team better?: yes I do believe he has a plan and is carrying it out. I listed it before, offense, secondary pitchers, catcher, bullpen, dump Castillo. You can say that plan is terrible but you can’t say he has not got a clue and has no plan.
2) Has he improved the rotation? I would think where he is most upset is that Wolf went for 3/30 and that is why he then went back to Lackey. However, I would say he has a plan to improve the rotation but again you most likely wont agree with the plan.
So to me you are implying he does not have a plan because he is not following the plan you want.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:23pm at 11:23 pm (UTC -4)
TRS simple, simple, keep it simple You are looking too hard.
This isn’t the Davinci Code.
I do not believe Omar knows what he is doing.
I will continue to do so till proven otherwise.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:49pm at 11:49 pm (UTC -4)
So you are denying all the published reports that his plan is the one I have listed over and over OR are you saying that plan is the wrong one? You can’t get on him for not having a plan AND get on him for having the wrong one.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
LoL TRS you are hopeless.
You believe what you will.
You want to believe all is going as Omar planned?
Fine.
I have told you more than enough times my opinions on the matter every which way from Sunday.
I can’t do any more for you.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, if it has to take the 5th year for Bay I am hoping it’s a mutual option. Worst case that I would do is something like 5/72.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:07pm at 10:07 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not happy because as regular readers know I had a “heart on” for Lackey. I wanted to come out of this off season with a legitimate, viable, however you want me to put it I will, # 2 starter.
So far, we don’t have one, so I’m not happy with how it’s progressing. I can still be made happy, there’s a lot of time ’til pitchers and catchers. Unfortunately, while there are a number of guys who qualify as this pitcher I crave, I either haven’t heard anything about us getting them and/or I don’t see why their current team is giving them up.
So for me this off season is almost certain to end as a disappointment. I’m left to hope that someone who has yet to consistently demonstrate they can be a # 2 SP will start demonstrating that. So I might become happy with this off season around say October when I look back on the 2010 season and am pleased to note that (Pelfrey? Maine? Perez? Niese? Nieve? Figueroa? Holt? or yet to be acquired player?) who has yet to demonstrate said qualities stepped up and filled the role.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
I will crap all of our pants if Figgy or Holt step up to be our #2. LOL.
But as for your love of Lackey, he’s a good but not great pitcher with a history of slight arm trouble who got 5/82 from the team that he wanted to pitch for. Who knows how high we would have had to go. Thus I am happy the Mets did indeed not panic. To me that is growth.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:16pm at 10:16 pm (UTC -4)
I understand, now, that Lackey probably wasn’t going to come here.
Unfortunately that doesn’t change the fact that the Mets don’t have a # 2 SP and based on all even half-assed rumors we’ve heard so far, they aren’t getting one (I don’t consider Meche/Harang/Arroyo to meet my qualifications) unless someone they already have or someone they acquire over the coming months “grows” into one.
Nothing the Mets can do within reason between now and Opening Day will allow them to start the season with a viable # 2 SP. All I’m left with is the hope someone turns into one.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:19pm at 10:19 pm (UTC -4)
I understand that as well. Yet that does not make me upset with how this off-season is progressing. That makes me upset that they put themselves in that position to start with.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
It does me.
Because either they don’t have any awareness that they need a # 2 SP, or they are aware but are for their own reasons that I probably don’t agree with holding off on rectifying the problem.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-10:32pm at 10:32 pm (UTC -4)
Grave you couldn’t of have said it any better.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
So how would you like for them to have rectified the problem so far? In mid-December?
trs86
12/19/2009-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
Again, why judge it now? Just because one name is off the board?
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:35pm at 10:35 pm (UTC -4)
Halladay wasn’t coming here; nothing they could do about that.
Maybe they decided that Lackey’s stats and injuries did not justify his contract; or maybe he had no interest in being here too.
How do the above facts/possibilities show that the Mets either do not know they need a number 2 or are not trying to rectify it?
trs86
12/19/2009-10:39pm at 10:39 pm (UTC -4)
Considering Omar had met with Lackey right before he signed and had a meeting scheduled for the day after he signed I would say he was interested. Thus it boils down to what you said Kingman. Either the Mets did not think he was worth what it would take to get him out of Boston or he did not want to get out of Boston.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-10:40pm at 10:40 pm (UTC -4)
Minaya is the one that is supposed to figure out how to get the job done not us. Did the Philly fans call Amaro and tell him to trade Lee for Halliday?
I think not.
Again do what needs to be done to get the job done. Anything less will not do.
People can judge him whenever they want I will judge him now because I simply do not feel he knows what he is doing.
In other words this “PLAN” omar keeps talking about that he has. I don’t believe he has.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
Saying he doesn’t know what he is doing is ridiculous; that is one (small) step above the Los Mets stuff.
He may not be the best GM in baseball, he may not be the most articulate, but of course he knows what he is doing.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:47pm at 10:47 pm (UTC -4)
Actually the plan has been reported over and over again. You can disagree with it but it is evidently there and they are still following it.
Upgrade the offense, primarily LF and C
Get a pitcher, see what Lackey’s demands are then look to the trade market or secondary pitchers to fill the rotation.
Dump Castillo
Improve the bullpen
So is that plan blown all to hell yet? Seems to me that they are right on schedule.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:47pm at 10:47 pm (UTC -4)
TRS, what they could’ve done about it is what you and I very first butted heads about when we very first began to discuss Lackey:
They could’ve “overpaid” him.
I think most of us believe with these athletes whether they admit it or not, it’s about money.
Sure, Lackey’s wife is from Maine. Here’s an extra $25 million Mrs. Lackey, and unlimited 1st class tickets for your family to fly to X number of games this season, and permission for your husband to leave the team between starts (Clemens did so w/Yankees and Astros so their is a precedent).
Apply the same to Halladay if you really feel Lackey isn’t good enough.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
So you wanted them to give him an extra 25 million? Did you honestly think that Lackey was worth that? Also on Halladay that one is moot, it really appears he pulled a Santana and demanded Philly.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:59pm at 10:59 pm (UTC -4)
Besides, to me Grave Lackey by himself does not make us competitive. If you vastly overpay Lackey then that’s all you get. No matter what we would still have a budget.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:32pm at 11:32 pm (UTC -4)
So far at least it seems that budget is far lower than last years.
$25 million is just for conversation purposes. Another year at the same rate as the Sox gave is fine too. In other words, what it takes.
The Mets could’ve gone above and beyond for Lackey (or Halladay, money talks) and then used the 100 left over ways you have up your sleeve to fill the other roles.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:48pm at 11:48 pm (UTC -4)
Why does it seem that the budget is lower? Because they did not overbid on Lackey? We have no idea what the budget is and have to assume it will be the same as last year at this point.
At this point it’s fair to assume that again either Lackey did not want to be here or Omar and the Mets did not feel it was worth it to pay him what it would take to get him here.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:24pm at 10:24 pm (UTC -4)
But Grave, even though pitching wins, you posted a magnificent chart regarding how many games the Mets won giving up 1 run, 2 runs, etc.
If we don’t get the bona fide number 2–and I was wearing out the internet last year begging for CC and this year for Halladay–but if we get Bay and Molina and everyone else is healthy, we will score a lot more runs, and hence win more games.
Even with guys like Meche or Garland in the rotation, especially if Omar gets another good bullpen arm.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:43pm at 10:43 pm (UTC -4)
That’s a fair point, but it remains to be seen whether that means the Mets will win more games of if they’ll simply lose more games by fewer runs.
They need to overcome this:
Comeback Wins: 27, Largest Comeback: 5
Blown Leads: 41, Largest Blown Lead: 5
Another thing I’ve done is demonstrate that even if the Mets add a slugging LF and a Molina-type catcher to their healthy regular roster, they will still be in the lower third of HR in the NL. They still won’t be scoring lots of runs.
I think they would be better off not blowing the leads as opposed to trying to outscore the opposition.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-10:49pm at 10:49 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I do agree with what you are saying, but I guess I am contorting to try and make the best of a situation where, at this point, a healthy Ben Sheets is perhaps the only seriously good number 2 out there and available.
Ideally, I agree with you.
But a healthy Beltran, a rejuvenated Wright, a full year of the good Frenchy, and Bay and Molina will put us in the top half in HR for sure….I hope.
But still, as you say, we may just lose more games 8-6 than 8-3.
Maybe Omar will still pull a trade out of his secret plan.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree with part of that statement. The Mets won’t be scoring a lot of runs. Considering that in 2008 they finished tied with the Phillies for 2nd in runs scored yet was around league average in HR the lack of HR does not mean they won’t score runs. Reyes and Beltran back full time will instantly improve your runs scored.
Also, I have a hard time figuring out why we can’t get to league average on HR with the addition of Bay and Molina?
trs86
12/19/2009-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
I still say take a look back at 2006′s rotation. It is for sure not better than
Johan, Pelfrey, Garland, Marquis, Perez/Maine.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:12pm at 11:12 pm (UTC -4)
I believe they won’t score as many runs because I believe David Wright’s 30+ HR days are behind him and I don’t believe that Bay will produce as many runs as 2008 Delgado.
Last year’s Mets hit 95 HR. Last year’s league average for team HR was 155, so the Mets need 60 HR to get to league average.
With the average, healthy production of Wright, Reyes and Beltran they would’ve had 37 more home runs (because you have to subtract the HR their replacements hit last year).
That’s 132. Let’s say for discussion that Bay and Molina come and hit 28 and 18 HR respectively, is that fair? That’s 46 new HR.
But we need to subtract the 12 LF and 12 C HR the Mets got last year from the 46 we expect from Bay and Molina, so Bay and Molina actually add 22 HR to the 132 we’ve got so far for a total of 154 which is 1 below league average.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:40pm at 11:40 pm (UTC -4)
Less than their averages
Reyes 13
Beltran 18
Wright 17
Also you can’t subtract all of the HR their replacements had because they will still play some.
As a team in 2008 they hit 172 I just don’t see why switching out those guys for Murphy/rh guy, Castillo, Reyes, Wright, Molina/Blanco, Bay, Beltran, Frenchy will make that number tank.
But even we are in basic agreement. They would be about league average in HR. Again, that does not necessarily correlate to runs however.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t understand what you mean with those numbers next to Wright, Beltran and Reyes.
You need to realize too that the league average of 155 was cultivated including the Mets hitting 95 HR.
If the Mets hit 154 HR, league average will be higher.
I wasn’t correlating the team’s total home runs with the idea that they wouldn’t score as much.
As I said, I don’t think David Wright will return to his average production, and I don’t think Bay will equal the lost production of Carlos Delgado. That’s why I submit they won’t score like that team.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:05am at 12:05 am (UTC -4)
Those numbers are how many HR they were short of their career averages last year, factoring in last year as part of their averages.
Also, while you are correct it would change the average, the median was 157 so not a big difference.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:07am at 12:07 am (UTC -4)
But it’s not just about Bay replacing Delgado. It’s about Frenchy, Bay, Murphy/RH guy and Molina.
njstuckintx
12/19/2009-10:37pm at 10:37 pm (UTC -4)
Would Sheeets fit your number 2?
trs86
12/19/2009-10:40pm at 10:40 pm (UTC -4)
If he comes down in price I would be fine with it. Last I read he wanted 12 a year. Not good.
njstuckintx
12/19/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
Has it been mentioned that he wants more than 1 year? I know the Mets should get all crazy, but would giving him 10 for 1 year be worth it with a opt. of 10 mil for the next year with a 500K/1M buy out be crazy?
trs86
12/19/2009-10:54pm at 10:54 pm (UTC -4)
How can we give him that much for 1 year when he has not pitched healthy since mid-2008.
njstuckintx
12/19/2009-11:15pm at 11:15 pm (UTC -4)
I was just throwing that out there. I do think 10 mil would be overpaying, but then again, what did Harden get? 7.5? I view Sheets as just as good or a better shot than Harden.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:33pm at 11:33 pm (UTC -4)
I think that because Harden actually pitched last year he is more of a sure thing.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
YES, a healthy Sheets does fit, in fact a healthy Sheets is a # 1.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
Also, TRS this post of yours from above took about 10 hours to sink in for me but what happened to the “101 ways to build the Mets back into a contender” philosophy?
trs86 says:
Saturday, December 19 2009 at 12:01 pm (Edit)
That was the thought by bringing in 2 of them. If we can’t get Bay or Holliday then I really don’t know what other options we really have.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:26pm at 10:26 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed and that is why I said bring in the old guys for one year. Thus If we don’t get those two then what other options do we have than to go with 1 year guys and patch the holes? I still think that could let to a contender for next year. Sure things would have to break our way but adding Damon/Vlad and Dye along with Delgado and Molina could for sure patch the offense. Would not help the defense obviously but it would not be worse than last year in my opinion. Sure we would love to have a #2 but who was the #2 in 2006? We had a mess with injuries and still managed.
If we ended up with say
Reyes, Castillo, Beltran, Wright, Damon, Frenchy, Murphy, Molina
Johan, Pelfrey, Garland, Maine, Perez
I still feel we would be competitive. It could all blow up of course but so could 2009.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
I am apparently in one of my “not communicating effectively” modes again. Let me try again.
Bringing in Bay or Holliday was 1 way, bringing in Dye and Vlad and Delgado was another way, which should leave roughly 99 other ways, yet you said “I don’t know what other options we really have.”
What happened to the 99 other ways?
trs86
12/19/2009-10:37pm at 10:37 pm (UTC -4)
You are over simplifying the bringing in the one year guys. You could have any combination of say Bay, Molina and Garko
Bay, Nady, Barajas, Lopez
Bay, Dye, Olivo, Hudson
Damon, Dye, Molina, Derosa (oh god no)
That’s just on offense. I hope you get the picture so I don’t actually have to list 100 ways.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
No my goal isn’t to get you to list them.
I apparently mis-interpreted your “don’t know what other options we really have” as meaning you had exhausted your list of 101 things a bit short of 101.
I see now that you have not.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:01pm at 11:01 pm (UTC -4)
Now my reasoning behind the don’t know what options was if we don’t sign a big name to multi years then we are left with choosing a bunch of one year guys to plug holes and I still feel if you make the right decisions there you could be competitive.
trs86
12/19/2009-10:32pm at 10:32 pm (UTC -4)
I do like a few of the moves already made by the Mets.
The pick up of Blanco for nothing is a good move because it gives a good defensive catcher who could be a guy that helps even Santana return to form.
I like the pick up of the 2 BP arms in what’shisname and Everts.
I like the pick up of a guy no one is talking about. Mike Hessman. Good guy to have at AAA that could compete for a spot. Good power in the minors and played 10 positions last year (DH and pitcher).
I know they have made 0 flashy moves but if that continues then like I said in January you can be as negative about the off-season as you want.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
“2 BP arms in what’shisname”
That’d be ‘Toyota-san’ :p
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
King, If you think that believing Minaya doesn’t know what he is doing is one step above to some fools racist remarks dealing with Los Mets.
God bless you but you are clueless.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-11:11pm at 11:11 pm (UTC -4)
How can you say he doesn’t know what he is doing?
That is clueless.
And God bless you too.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:13pm at 11:13 pm (UTC -4)
I will say that spouting off Omar does not have a clue is not close to the stupid Los Mets remarks.
However, I would wager again that I am sure Omar has a clue or he would never be in the position he is in. However, if you want to argue that he is doing a poor job then that for sure you have merit in.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:03pm at 11:03 pm (UTC -4)
Again if Mets fans are happy with Minaya’s plan there is nothing I can do about that. I don’t share people’s view as of this moment. As hard as it is to believe I do not feel Omar is getting the job done.
If he does something between now and then to make me change my view I will gladly do so and give him all the accolades he deserves. Till then he gets nothing from me.
That doesn’t mean everyone that is happy with him is crazy for doing so and should have there Mets fan-ship revoked.
It just means I am unhappy with Minaya.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:10pm at 11:10 pm (UTC -4)
I’m unhappy with this whole team until they prove themselves in September. Doesn’t matter who they bring in.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:12pm at 11:12 pm (UTC -4)
Dark I will continue to agree.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:10pm at 11:10 pm (UTC -4)
I am not happy with Omar’s over all job with the organization since 2007 however I have no problems with what he has done this off-season because this off-season has barely started.
If if I hate Castillo I am not going to boo him in the preseason. All the Omar “supporters” or “Neutrals” are saying give him time this off-season before you judge it. If you want to say Omar sucks it is your right and you most likely could find plenty of reasons but to me you can’t use this off-season as an example YET>
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:17pm at 11:17 pm (UTC -4)
Sure you can feel that way TRS that is just fine.
I just don’t agree and will continue to disagree till given a reason not to.
Simple, you see?
trs86
12/19/2009-11:21pm at 11:21 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, you are confused and it is confusing me. LOL
I still don’t get it. You are upset that Omar has not done anything by mid-December. Is that the plain and simple?
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:26pm at 11:26 pm (UTC -4)
Not only has Omar yet to do something but even worse I don’t believe he knows what to do.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:30pm at 11:30 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry if I am confusing you it is not my intent. I tried time and again to help by telling you to keep it simple but it doesn’t seem to be of any help.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:20pm at 11:20 pm (UTC -4)
I’m far from an Omar supporter, but I’ll have to wait until Spring Training until I judge him on the overall off-season. Still, I really really want to see some upgrades in the rotation. This pitching staff needs some serious reinforcements.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:21pm at 11:21 pm (UTC -4)
I agree
trs86
12/19/2009-11:08pm at 11:08 pm (UTC -4)
Opening Day 2006
Reyes, Loduca, Beltran, Delgado, Wright, Floyd, Nady, Hernandez
Staff
Glavine, Pedro, Bannister, Trax, Zambrano
If that team can win 97 games then I will wait and see what this team has in April to judge.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:22pm at 11:22 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, and Pedro Feliciano had 7 wins, Duaner Sanchez had 5, and Chad Bradford, Aaron Heilman and Darren Oliver each had 4, which indicates to me the team was coming back to win a lot of games.
I don’t see this Met team doing that even with Bay and Molina because their current starting pitchers haven’t demonstrated an ability to keep the team in games even as well as that motley crew has and this current bullpen isn’t as good as that team’s was.
You are saying you are fine with waiting for the pitching to develop, that’s a reasonable position and if it you find it tenable then roll with it. I find it untenable, I don’t want to wait and hope for that at this stage, I simply want to have it and I have been denied and that is why I am unsatisfied.
I understand where you’re coming from and I also understand I am not going to change your mind about it, but neither are you going to change mine.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:25pm at 11:25 pm (UTC -4)
Circle gets the square.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:29pm at 11:29 pm (UTC -4)
But Ollie’s only 27 and has “potential”!! :p
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
If that dude goes out and somehow keeps his walks down to a semi-reasonable level, he may actually become the # 2 this team needs. I just don’t have a lot of history to go on to suggest that will happen. But to be fair, it could. It’s infinitely more likely than me becoming an astronaut for example.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:32pm at 11:32 pm (UTC -4)
The team did come back and win a lot of games you are right. But that was as much attitude as you could say it was bullpen.
I have never said I am ok with letting pitching develop. I am saying that adding Marquis and Garland along with Bay, Molina and another BP arm will in my opinion make us as competitive as Lackey and a scrub in LF because we spent all of our money overpaying Lackey.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:36pm at 11:36 pm (UTC -4)
Letting it develop is perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.
Maybe “hoping for it to overachieve” is better?
trs86
12/19/2009-11:46pm at 11:46 pm (UTC -4)
I am again not sure that
Johan, Lackey, Pelfrey, Perez, Maine
gets us any further than
Johan, Pelfrey, Maine/Perez and 2 of the following. Marquis, Garland, Sheets, Arroyo, Harang, Meche and any others I am forgetting.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:53pm at 11:53 pm (UTC -4)
You’re right for the most part, until the playoffs which is where I want the team to go and where they would be starting Lackey in game 2 or one of those guys. The only one of those guys I want starting game 2 is Sheets.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:59pm at 11:59 pm (UTC -4)
True in the playoffs it COULD hurt you. We don’t really want to go back and look at how many teams suddenly found pitching in the playoffs though. It would bring us back to 2006. Carpenter and a bunch of regular season scrubs.
GravediggerHebner
12/20/2009-12:03am at 12:03 am (UTC -4)
And again we come back to the crux.
You’re fine with hoping it comes around, hoping we find it, while I just want to have it.
That’s the thing we’re arguing about filling up this thread. It’s that simple as far as I can tell.
I want it, you’re OK with seeing if it shakes out or not.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:14am at 12:14 am (UTC -4)
But where we still disagree is the addition of just Lackey to our staff fixes our issues. To me it gives us a better playoff rotation but may not get us in the post season.
stickguy
12/19/2009-11:15pm at 11:15 pm (UTC -4)
Hebs, I will start by reminding anyone that ever paid attention that I am not real big on the whole #1/#2/etc. business for pitchers.
But, what I do think the Mets need (and frankly, every team!) is just more pitching talent. Even if that means a #1 and 4-#3s, that is better than a 1 and 2-3′s and a 4 and a 5.
the job of the SP is to really keep the team in games, and try to limit the innings the BP has to pitch, and to allow them to have leads to protect (and for the offense to not have to work too hard!)
another of the points I beat to death is that, with rare exceptions, if you want a stud pitcher (a 1 or a 2), you need to develop them yourself. Because when you can get one, it is going to be very, very expensive (in prospects and/or money, usually both). Or even worse, you pay a premium for a guy that may not even be that good.
Or of course, you take a flier on damaged goods (like Sheets).
So, getting as many talented guys as you can and hoping they make “the leap” is actually a good idea.
Heck, a few years ago, many people (especially the giants) considered Zito to be that stud to put them over the top. Oops.
and at the sametime, Cliff Lee was coming off a terrible year, where he was even sent to the minors, and I do recall there was discussion that he would be traded for scraps, or even cut.
sometimes pitching really is a crapshoot.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:25pm at 11:25 pm (UTC -4)
I think Grave’s post earlier this year outlined how important a #2 was. However, I think we also saw in those reports how key it was to have a deep rotation as well. If your #5 is consistently better than the other #4-5′s that he ends up matched up against that is a huge positive as well. Obviously it’s a little like being a HS tennis coach. You can afford to tank the #2 spot if you have a better #1 than others and your 3-5 are better than average 3-5.
Personally I would rather have Lackey/Halladay in a perfect world but I can’t say that adding Arroyo and Garland would not impact the Mets just as much.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:29pm at 11:29 pm (UTC -4)
Looking at it this way
Johan 18
Lackey 16
Pelfrey 12
Perez 8
Maine 10
Johan 18
Arroyo 14
Pelfrey 12
Garland/Marquis 12
Maine/Perez 10
Not a lot of difference there.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:51pm at 11:51 pm (UTC -4)
How does Perez suddenly get 2 more wins in the second group Mr. 3-card Monty?
trs86
12/19/2009-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
He does not. The combination of Maine and Perez does. They are now the #5 and between the 2 of them I think we end up with at least 10.
GravediggerHebner
12/20/2009-12:01am at 12:01 am (UTC -4)
Wow, so not only do you get to add 2 SPs (Arroyo & Marquis/Garland) but I only get to add 1, but you get to use 6 starters and I only get to use 5!
Any other handicaps I didn’t know I had?
trs86
12/20/2009-12:12am at 12:12 am (UTC -4)
My preconception that there was no way we would add another starter if we got Lackey, especially if we overpaid to get him.
To me it is still a case of Lackey and the scrubs we have or 2 new guys that cost the same as one year of an overpaid Lackey.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:34pm at 11:34 pm (UTC -4)
Adding Arroyo and Garland would force us to rely on Pelf/Ollie/Maine less, which would help the team. Sorry, but I’m not expecting a lot from them. Pelf should bounce back a fair bit, but Ollie is garbage and who knows about Maine. Not a group to rely on.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:42pm at 11:42 pm (UTC -4)
That is something I brought up earlier. In my opinion I was afraid that if the Mets got Lackey they would say, ok rotation good. Yet they would still have 3 question marks.
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:47pm at 11:47 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, very good point. I’ve been out a lot today so haven’t read all the comments and missed that.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:53pm at 11:53 pm (UTC -4)
Not sure if I brought it up today. I was referring to the entire off-season I have been preaching 2 pitchers are needed instead of just one stud. One stud and one other would have been great. My hope was Lackey, Garland and cheap in LF. However, Lackey’s price and desire destroyed any chance in that.
darknova306
12/20/2009-12:02am at 12:02 am (UTC -4)
Ah, thought you were referring to some specific proposal. Right, one pitcher who will be expected to be healthy and one risk/reward guy. I’m all in favor of that. Sheets and Garland or some combo like that is fine with me.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:26pm at 11:26 pm (UTC -4)
I understand that pitching is a crapshoot. I understand that Lackey or even Halladay could’ve come here and either got injured and/or underperformed. Had that happened I would’ve been sad about it but happy that the team gave it their best shot.
If Maine or Perez or Pelfrey pitch very well and win my respect and admiration (and lots of games) that will be wonderful, but it is unexpected by me and I had higher expectations for the pitching staff of an alleged contender with the highest payroll in the NL. If they lay an egg I will feel that the team was unprepared to contend.
I would expect Halladay or Lackey to, if healthy, do well and put the team in a good position. I just don’t expect that of the current crew. Can it happen? Sure, but I’m not running to Vegas with a suitcase full of cash to bet on it.
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:32pm at 11:32 pm (UTC -4)
I swear Grave you have a gift when it comes to expressing your thoughts.
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:43pm at 11:43 pm (UTC -4)
I function best in gray areas. If green grass were a gray area, I would be a cow grazing on it.
If this conversation ever goes black and white I’m in trouble. 8)
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:41pm at 11:41 pm (UTC -4)
There’s no reason, even from track record, to expect Pelf/Ollie/Maine to keep us in the game more often than not. You’re absolutely right, Grave. I hope for a different outcome, but don’t expect anything.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-11:41pm at 11:41 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know Grave, Vegas will be laying some pretty fat odds against the Mets doing anything…
GravediggerHebner
12/19/2009-11:45pm at 11:45 pm (UTC -4)
“Vegas baby Vegas!”
True, and if I expected this group to win big I’d be on my way there now with that cash filled suitcase.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-11:54pm at 11:54 pm (UTC -4)
“Listen, bring a single malted Glen Gary for me and one for my boy Grave here”
Mr North Jersey
12/19/2009-11:52pm at 11:52 pm (UTC -4)
I am in a way like that little girl (no jokes now) in the movie “Miracle on 34th street”.
Right now I don’t believe in Omar.
I remember the promise he made to be aggressive this off season and make my Mets better but its Xmas morning and all I see so far is nothing under the tree.
But everyone keeps telling me to believe in him but the best I can do is say these hollow words.
“I believe… I believe… It’s silly, but I believe.”
But deep down I really want to believe and just wish he could do something to make it so.
Can Omar deliver on his promise? Is there really a Santa Clause? Is Maureen O’Hara gonna get knocked up by John Payne and give Natalie Wood a lil brother?
Who da heck knows.
trs86
12/19/2009-11:55pm at 11:55 pm (UTC -4)
We are not even telling you to believe in Omar. In my mind and heart I actually don’t know if he will get it done. All we are saying is wait and see before you deem this off-season unsuccessful. We are not even trying to convince you Omar is good or average because in my opinion that is moot. All we are really disagreeing with is if this off-season can be judged on December 19th.
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
Well said…even though it is now minutes until it is December 20th…another day wasted!!
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-12:03am at 12:03 am (UTC -4)
Again I can’t do no more for you TRS, eventually you just have to accept you just don’t understand and leave it at that. Now if you want to wait till Opening day or whatever day you have in mind that is fine.
I simply do not wish to give Omar till opening day.
If I feel he has not done the job I expected of him I will express that till he proves me otherwise.
The everyone telling me to believe line was but a poor attempt at trying to create a funny analogy. That got lost in translation.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:10am at 12:10 am (UTC -4)
He has not done the job overall and I agree. Where we still disagree is judging this off-season. That would be like failing a bad kid on his rough-draft because that’s the only thing he has turned in 2 months before it is due.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-12:13am at 12:13 am (UTC -4)
Ive said all I can to help you it would probably be easier for you if you just leave it at something you don’t understand.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:18am at 12:18 am (UTC -4)
So you are saying it’s like Global Warming?
trs86
12/20/2009-12:20am at 12:20 am (UTC -4)
LOL, fine, If you want to be pissed for no reason who am I to stop you.
Have a good night and may we over pay for Bay in our sleep.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-12:27am at 12:27 am (UTC -4)
Again if why you don’t understand something it must mean it is being done for no reason then that is ok also.
I understand.
darknova306
12/20/2009-12:11am at 12:11 am (UTC -4)
I wanted Omar fired, too (Jerry more so, though). Still, if he doesn’t give in to the 5th year and we still get Bay, will that be such a bad thing?
And I won’t tell you to believe until we’ve done something in September, cause that’s when I’ll actually have some confidence. But still, give it some time…
trs86
12/20/2009-12:13am at 12:13 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, you guys know I wanted the house cleaned but I am over that now because it did not happen and I know if they don’t get it done this year they are gone.
darknova306
12/20/2009-12:20am at 12:20 am (UTC -4)
Absolutely true. I wanted a lot of changes that didn’t happen after 2009 ended. Didn’t happen, so now I drink and hope…
trs86
12/20/2009-12:21am at 12:21 am (UTC -4)
Right to me that is why I actually have some hope for this off-season. Because I know that Omar has to do a good job to keep his job.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-12:22am at 12:22 am (UTC -4)
It’s obvious no one is saying the Mets season in 2010 is over regardless of what Omar does or doesn’t do.
He is simply being judged on how well did he do at improving the team in the off season so far and so far I am not impressed.
But maybe tomorrow I will change my mind or maybe not.
darknova306
12/20/2009-12:51am at 12:51 am (UTC -4)
Honestly, as far as the whole franchise goes, they are failures to me until they prove they can win in September. That’s it. The off-season only gives me a level of confidence about their ability to be competitive once September hits. After that, they have a lot to prove… Still wouldn’t trade Reyes for Halladay like some people would…
Kingman 26
12/19/2009-11:55pm at 11:55 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
It ain’t over till it’s over! (I am pretty sure this quote also applies to the offseason)
darknova306
12/19/2009-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
Dude, it’s not Christmas morning YET! We could have a begrudging Bay signing soon! :p
I don’t believe in Omar either, but at least we haven’t handed out the 5 years it would take to sign Bay quickly and the 3 years it’d take to sign Molina quickly. Either Omar has learned his lesson or the Wilpons are holding the reins. Either way, it’s better than throwing years and $$ around with reckless abandon.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:00am at 12:00 am (UTC -4)
AGREED. To me right now we could have MUCH more to complain about than the LACK of activity.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-12:10am at 12:10 am (UTC -4)
I can see my Miracle of 34th street attempt was a bad idea. When people are taking it literal that it’s xmas day.
Just forget the whole attempt and leave it as it should be an epic fail onmy part at trying to create a funny analogy.
darknova306
12/20/2009-12:12am at 12:12 am (UTC -4)
Actually, that’s more of an epic fail on my part… I’ve never actually watched Miracle on 34th Street all the way through, so the quotes mean nothing to me.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:17am at 12:17 am (UTC -4)
LOL, I just did tonight.
GravediggerHebner
12/20/2009-12:13am at 12:13 am (UTC -4)
I feel I have the “right” to complain because:
I believe the Mets need a viable front-end, legit # 2 (consistently ranked in the top 60 of all SPs annually in the majors) SP;
2 of those have changed teams, meaning at least in theory that they were “available;”
My favorite team didn’t do what was required to secure either one of them when they were “available;”
While not impossible, it has not been rumored that they are in talks to acquire one who as of yet has been made “available;”
They have left me to hope that some current or future MLB SP will grow into the role for this team. I wanted better than that. I didn’t get it. I’m disappointed. LACKey of activity.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:16am at 12:16 am (UTC -4)
You have that right to be disappointed that it did not happen but in my opinion not the right to blame Omar that it did not.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-12:24am at 12:24 am (UTC -4)
You hit the nail on the head finally it is but your opinion.
GravediggerHebner
12/20/2009-12:15am at 12:15 am (UTC -4)
“Touch Me I’m Sick” by Mudhoney is on the radio. This seems like a good time to sign off. Good night and good debating fellows.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:16am at 12:16 am (UTC -4)
I gotta go too, my wife may be signing me up for addiction counseling right now.
mattsmith
12/20/2009-12:48am at 12:48 am (UTC -4)
Back to the original article …
The Phillies don’t care about dominating the NL East. They don’t play their best ball until October, anyway. It’s going to be a tough division, whether we had Cliff Lee or not.
darknova306
12/20/2009-12:55am at 12:55 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know about it being a tough division. We have a TON of question marks (as of right now), and the Braves have a weak offense. The Marlins are still young and improving. Phillies have the NL East until someone takes it from them.
stickguy
12/20/2009-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
Decided to post something rational (at least to me) OK, make that thought provoking and not virulent, over at MCs place. Figure I can put it here to to see if it generates any response. Hopefully more rational than last nights playground taunts.
there are a number of diferent ways the FO could take this off season.
1, of course, was to pull a Yankees and balloon the budget up to $180mill, and make over the top offers to Holliday, Lackey, Gonzolez, and heck, maybe Bay too. Give them 6-8 years. Obviously, that ain’t happening.
the 2nd logical plan (which Omar described earlier, and they seem to be following) is to get a big bat for LF (likely a FA), and to upgrade at C and add some SPs. Lackey if reasonable, or else some of the 2nd tier FAs or through trades. SInce Lackey is gone, that leaves the garlands and maquis, along with the trade market (and Lee and Halladay were never really options it seems).
But, a 3rd plan exists. Assume that some a team caves and gives Holliday 7/140 (I can think of one that just might…), and another team steps up and does 6 years/100 for Bay (just suppose), so the Mets miss them both.
Well, unless a miracle trade comes through (and considering the other stated goal of letting the farm system recover some more), the next best option just might be to load up on 1-year vets and reclaimation projects, and try again next off season (with potentially a much better FA class) to add more LT studs to the core. It also buys a year to see if guys like Thole, Davis, F Mart and Neise are ready for the show.
in that scenerio, guys like Damon, Dye, any of the 1-year option catchers, Sheets (incentive laden deals to risk/reward pitchers), and plenty of others that could end up on 1 year deals (even if you overpay slightly to get no future commitment) all become viable.
If you get lucky, and they have 1 big year left (and they will all be playing for contracts to keep them interested), you get a very good team (just make sure the bench has young, althletic defensive replacements!).
If it doesn’t, you trade everyone you can at the deadline for prospects, and use them + the farm guys you kept (likely up and playing at this point) + next off season FA pool to put together the future LT team.
No trading of the stars involved either, but no LT deals to guys that are going to drag you down.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Playground taunts?
Is that what is happening over at MC’s Blog?
Wait let me see if I can shed a tear.
stickguy
12/20/2009-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Actually, I meant the ones going on over here.
Mr North Jersey
12/20/2009-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
I figured that but since out of 224 and counting posts maybe a handful fell in the category of what may be considered a playground taunt and what was happening is an exchange of opinions. I would just then say you must be talkin of MC’s blog
trs86
12/20/2009-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I think plan 2 or 3 could help us for the short and long-term. Neither require a serious loss in prospects and both give us established players to fill current holes. As long as Omar finishes the job I could deal with either plan.
trs86
12/20/2009-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
Comment of the day on Mattsblog:
dave27 December 20, 2009 at 10:05 am
Who is Davidoff basing this on, Bay?
Reality is Bay is holding out to pull another team into the mix to get him the deal that he was looking for.
The Mets were never really in on Lackey. Halladay apparently said the Phillies were the ONLY team he’d sign an extension with, including the mighty Yankees. They haven’t really engaged Holliday. What exactly am I missing here – what ree-agents have they TRIED to attract and couldn’t?
Players know they Mets will invest in their team based on their market, and players know that a core of Beltran, Reyes, Wright, and Santana is never far from contention. It is just getting beyond tiring to have the press in this town kick the Mets while they are down (and of course, while the Yankees are up), and act like they have no hope. Used to be Shea was a deterrent because it was a dump – now apparently a brand-new, state-of-the-art facility is turning away free-agents because a team missing its two biggest power threats all year struggled to hit HRs there (while road teams most certainly did not). Really?
Go away Ken Davidoff, and find your boy Johnny Damon a job someplace.
trs86
12/20/2009-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Seriously Mattsblog is not so bad on Sunday morning, all the whiners must still be drunk.
” dave27 December 20, 2009 at 10:21 am
Amazing you can win between 83 and 97 games for 4 straight years, yet one bad year and you suddenly are just hopeless and miles from winning.”
Somebody get this Dave27 over here where he can be happy.
“dwright5_godsend December 20, 2009 at 10:45 am
Does it bother anybody else to keep reading about how Jason Bay wants nothing to do with the Mets? And to think these writers get paid to do this kind of thing…
Jason Bay has nothing against the Mets, IMO. He is just holding out because it is the smart thing to do and he wants more years/money. How do people figure he doesn’t like the Mets? By that logic, can’t we say Holliday wants nothing to do with the Cardinals?
I think this team is two players away from being a legit contender; not the favorite, but a contender. Bay/Holliday is the big piece, and Pineiro/Marquis is the other one. People say we are four or five players away, but heck, two of those players are Reyes and Beltran!
Name me one team that could have withstood the injuries we had last year…I’m waiting.”
Kingman 26
12/20/2009-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Yes sir, I have made this same argument here and elsewhere, and while Omar is not baseball’s very best, nor is he the most literate baseball exec, he is largely responsible for turning us into perennial contenders almost overnight.
As for the last sentence up above, I have been waiting for someone to do it, and maybe I will have to do it myself, but research might very well show that last year may have been historic in terms of the games spent on the DL by starters for a major pro sports team.
trs86
12/20/2009-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
I think over the summer we did indeed find out that was true. Can’t remember who did the post.
stickguy
12/20/2009-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Well, how about the 2009 WS champions, and reigning payroll winners?
They missed the playoffs entirely in 2008. Why? largely due to injuries, wasn’t it?
jaydh
12/20/2009-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Dave is one of the few respectable posters still over there.