According to Ken Rosenthal’s Twitter Page: Source: #Mets contact Jerry Hairston. Could fill in for Beltran and/or Reyes, who also is coming off surgery. Only FA left who plays CF, SS.
I like the move. I thought Hairston would be a good guy to take the Tatis role even before Beltran went down. Now I think his versatility could be even more of an advantage. I still think Pagan will get the bulk of the playing time, however I think Hairston could fill in.
102 comments
trs86
1/15/2010-8:13am at 8:13 am (UTC -4)
Independent of the Beltran issue and now that LaRoche is gone a bench of
Blanco, Cora, Hairston, Garko, Carter and eventually Pagan would not be a bad looking bench.
oleosmirf
1/15/2010-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
i think you can cross Garko off that list though.
The Mets dont really seem to have any interest in signing any 1B other than Delgado (to an MLB deal). Im sure we’ll see some minor league deals handed out but between Murphy, Carter, Nick the Stick and others I dont believe Omar is going to spend any money there (besides Delgado)
trs86
1/15/2010-8:54am at 8:54 am (UTC -4)
I am not sure how the Mets will fill out their bench. If they deem Delgado unfit for the position I could see them moving in a different direction. If Garko is still there he could be a fit.
oleosmirf
1/15/2010-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
he is a fit but it doesnt look like the Mets see it that way.
trs86
1/15/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
I can’t tell what the Mets see as a fit.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Moses smell the roses.
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-8:43am at 8:43 am (UTC -4)
I would prefer Ankiel at this point, for both being able to play all OF positions and his power, but I can’t see him signing with the Mets. Not getting a starting job and all that. So that would be a Carter swap for Ankiel, which won’t be happening.
As for your mentioned bench, it’s not too shabby. I’m a fan of Garko. If only Tatis could play Center, I’d have him back. I won’t be crying in my milk when Mets don’t sign him back. I guess better the devil you know, as they say.
trs86
1/15/2010-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
Depends on which Ankiel you think you are getting. The one last year had a .387 SLG percentage. Hairston Jr had a .394 SLG. Obviously Ankiel’s career SLG is much higher than Hairston. I would not be upset with Ankiel at all. I like the move but I think Hairston might be more valuable to the Mets for an entire season.
trs86
1/15/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
Great comment from a guy at MB:
You know what? I’m tired of this fiasco of an organization. They’ve taken all the fun out of rooting for a team. They actually make it harder to root for the team. Some teams have their ups and downs but there is NO reason why a team that plays in the capital of the world has to be this inept. I am at my wits end. The only positive for me is I can make a choice not to follow or have anything to do with the Mets because in reality they don’t pay my mortgage. They are suppose to add to my life as an entertainment, not make me miserable. With that being said I can also say, (at least for the time being) I will always root for them.
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
Amen.
oleosmirf
1/15/2010-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
ignoring the whole Beltran siutation, its time to clean house. Everyone from Front Office, Medical, PR, Coaching.
Even after the Mets sign Piniero to a 3 year deal and the Dave Duncan effect wears off, this rotation is still one of if not THE worst rotations in all of baseball.
Right now our rotation is, Santana, Pelfrey (10 W 5.05 ERA), Maine (7 W 4.43 ERA), Perez (3 W 6.82 ERA), Niese (1 W 4.21 ERA)/ Nieve (3 W 2.95 ERA) (both virtually rookies)
I mean how can you expect to make the playoffs with that kind of production from your SP??
metsfan4decades
1/15/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
Being a Met fan for over 40 years, I’ve suffered through some pretty bad teams and inept FO guys. I’ll be back for more pain this year…..
Expect nothing – hope for it all.
On the Hairston note, other than the fact that he plays CF, and is 4 years younger, I don’t think he adds anything that Tatis does not. Depends on the price.
I do believe with this latest news re Beltran, Pagan becomes our starting CF, at least for the short term, so that changes who that 5th OF should be, IMO. We should now be series about the back up to the back up for CF.
I know we’ve got Evans who I believe played a handful of games in LF, none in center and don’t remember him playing RF. Can Carter play CF?
oleosmirf
1/15/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
considering how awful he was in the minors last season. Nick the Stick should not be in our plans this season. Only if he proves himself at the plate in ST and/or AAA should he even be considered…
trs86
1/15/2010-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
Carter can play CF as well as any other position…. BAD. But no he offers no help there nor does Evans. A guy like Hairston who can also play CF and RF is needed with Pagan starting. The good news is that Frenchy has been durable most of his career so should not need a lot of days off. Francouer has played 163 minor league games in CF so I guess he is an option.
metsfan4decades
1/15/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
At this point, I think we need at least one more bench player that plays CF. Who knows how long Pagan will be the starting CF? And with Pagan’s injury history, albeit some poor luck, we can’t afford to be putting someone out there who has never played CF.
Too bad Church signed with the Pirates. I’d have signed him, not that he’d come back here….
trs86
1/15/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Wanted NOTHING to do with Church.
Yeah either way we might need another CF and I think that is why they are looking at Hairston because he can also backup other spots.
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Maybe Minn. would trade us back Gomez? heh.
trs86
1/15/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
I would guess they would have to get him back from the Brewers first?
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Brewers? Really? Where the heck have I been?
TGIF, I guess.
trs86
1/15/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Yup in the Hardy trade.
udontmesswthejohan
1/15/2010-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
I’m still trying to determine what makes me laugh (to keep from crying) more, the fact that the Mets are suffering through yet another embarrassing PR disaster or that the surgery for a guy who has a $119 million contract was paid through workers comp??? Discuss.
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
I think this is the big head scratcher. Seems like the Mets are so worried about their image that they do everything they can do to make them look better, and in the process, do the exact opposite. At this point, they would be better to just avoid all press conferences all together.
metsfan4decades
1/15/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
LOL….
Well, even though they are the NY Mets, insurance companies have their rules. If you get hurt on the job, as technically Beltran was, doctors are not allowed to bill the health insurance company first. It must go through workers comp.
I know, seems kind of lame with an organization that has the money the Mets do, but that’s the way it works. I once sat in an Orthopedic Surgeon’s waiting room, waiting my turn, when some new patient came in. They asked him to fill out the forms, started asking him the standard questions, first of which ‘is this injury job related’? Guy says yes, I hurt my ankle at work. Receptionist asks for the workers comp forms. Guy says he’s not going through workers comp, he only told his supervisor, but didn’t officially report it. The office told him he officially notified his employers so w/o those forms, he couldn’t see the doctor. Guy got really irate and said he’d pay for it out of his own pocket. Office still wouldn’t let him see the doctor w/o the workers comp forms.
Just goes to show you how money seems to drive everthing, even basic, standard health care…
trs86
1/15/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Seen it before myself.
udontmesswthejohan
1/15/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, no I know. Still it just makes you laugh. Just a nother day in the life of a Mets fan.
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
My big fear on all this is how myopic the Mets are. I’m pretty sure Fongy or Wanny (still can’t get used to his new avatar) rail on the fact that Omar can’t seem to multi-task. Having a big hole in CF is a major issue, but I think that the pitching is going to be an even bigger issue. I hope that the pitcher search doesn’t get shut down as they scope out potential CF options. Or at the least, I hope they snag a body for CF real soon, so they can start looking for pitching.
oleosmirf
1/15/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Omar talks to plenty of different players each day. Its not multitasking. He is just a terrible talent evaluator…
trs86
1/15/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
I can’t say he is a terrible talent evaluator on the major league level. What guy has he signed for the MLB team besides maybe Perez that is a bad talent? You could say that our drafts have been bad but looks like even that is starting to come around. Don’t even know if he is the one making those choices. He and the Mets are really bad at public relations in my opinion not talent evaluation.
oleosmirf
1/15/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
well anyone can tell you Santana, Beltran, K-Rod, Pedro Bay etc. are good players.
Its the lower level guys like Cora, Perez, Redding that he has a tough time with.
I mean I honestly feel that Omar truly believes this current rotation is good enough to make it to the playoffs. That is what worries me…
trs86
1/15/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think Omar does feel this rotation is good enough. But also feel like that after Lackey his hands are slightly tied.
But lets take a look at your qualifiers. Cora is a veteran bench guy. He has talent in his role. Maybe not worth 2 million but are we discussing talent evaluation or poor money management? Perez has tons of talent so he is not really in the discussion. Mental mess and again too much money but different discussion. Redding maybe he missed. But what about guys like Valentin, Stokes, Maine, Nieve, and the other scrap heap guys he has picked up. Like our new CF.
trs86
1/15/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
There is the alternative. Go get Pineiro and Sheets and go to war with what we got. Maybe a Hairston still fits in. If not then you got guys like Carter, Evans, Ahern, Fmart, etc that just gotta step up.
dirtysanchez
1/15/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
gotta step up…where have i heard that before….
Kingman 26
1/15/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, that is what I wrote last night.
Hairston? Byrnes? Eh. No thanks.
Go for Pineiro now that his price is obviously down to reality, and sign Sheets, and have the biggest possible upside, and have Johan/Sheets/Pineiro/Pelf/Ollie/Maine/Niese/Nieve/etc.
trs86
1/15/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
I think we still need a Hairston either way. Gotta have some depth for SS and CF.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
I follow your logic with the pitching staff here Kong and largely agree (although I might swap Garland for Pineiro specifically, but the general idea I’m with you), but what is your bench?
I don’t feel as strongly as you seem to that the Mets can just say “Hairston? Byrnes? Eh. No thanks.” Who are you proposing round out the roster?
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
And I follow your logic, following Kong’s logic, though I would swap just about anybody for Eric Byrnes, who has been pitiful over the last two years in the games he did actually manage to play. He’s exactly what this team can’t afford (and I don’t mean financially) to carry anymore.
I’m not opposed to Hairston, though I do prefer someone with more experience as an outfielder.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. Given that Kong’s statement was a reply to TRS’ comment in which he described the bench as “guys like Carter, Evans, Ahern, Fmart, etc” I was just trying to figure out if Kong was endorsing that tack with the bench or if he had a different idea he simply didn’t express in his comment.
Kingman 26
1/15/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Truthfully, I would just as soon give FMart a chance to have a platoon in CF than see much of Hairston or any of Byrnes, who has like a .270 OBP the last two years. Let Nick Evans be utility and 5th OF.
I just have little desire for aging career bench guys like Hairston or aging, hurt, non-productive players like Byrnes.
Cora and Blanco are a good start.
If Hudson’s price continues to basically not exist, sign him for as little as possible, and that’s a fine platoon, and Cora never has to play 2B, keeping him fresh. Sure, maybe Gritty McMet can get a 1B glove and show how much he loves being in Queens by learning to play some 1B with Murph.
So, if Pagan starts:
FMart, Evans, Cora, Blanco, Gritty/Slappy.
Need more OF experience? I suppose.
Then I guess one still might need the Tatis-like, all-around sub with some power kind-of-guy.
Is it finally FMart’s time? In a limited season at AAA last year, he had good numbers, cut his Ks…maybe 2010 is finally when he arrives.
I think the Beltran situation is a disaster, whoever is to blame, but I personally say all of the focus must go on pitching now, and trying, if possible, to sign Sheets and also wind up with Pineiro, Garland, or even Arroyo.
With Molina’s bat, we will still have offense. I don’t think we need to bring in the Byrneses or Hairstons of the world, who will, in all likelihood, not give much-if any-more than what we already have.
trs86
1/15/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
I think Fmart needs to start at AAA no matter what happens.
But as for Hairston I don’t see the disdain there. But yeah if you bring in Hudson then his value decreases tremendously. I would then look for a guy like Sullivan to backup Pagan.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
Thank you for elaborating.
I find most interesting your question “Is if finally FMart’s time?” Ideally I would prefer he spend a full season in the minors raking and staying healthy, but “ideally” just left the building. If FMart is “what they say he is” and if “he’s ready” that is this team’s saving grace as far as the non-pitchers go. It would solve so many problems, but it’s a lot to ask.
As far as bench players go my personal preference is to install guys in bench roles who are veterans familiar with bench roles, and guys like Byrnes and Hairston are. OHud is not a bench player (yet). Evans and FMart are not veterans (yet). But I follow your process and can’t argue strongly against it, just my personal preference.
I end by repeating myself: If FMart is somehow ready to break out, it makes a lot of things better.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Ed Ryan of MetsFever a while back said he would consider Melvin Mora being a Met. How about him? He is a name that isn’t mentioned would any of you consider him a better option or worse?
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Well he’d start this season at age 38 and hasn’t been “versatile” since 2003. Also early off-season press reports were he was not interested in a back up role, although I have read more recently that position has softened.
I’m not sure what role he would fill on the Mets as he has played a total of 5 innings anywhere other than 3B since 2003. If he is capable of returning to the defensive versatility of his earlier career then I think he fits well, but if he’s “reduced” to just being a 3B I think that’s a poor use of a roster spot for this Met team. God willing, and the inept use of health information by the team’s front office aside, you’re not going to need a 3B much.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
Coming up next on my list as a name to throw in the hat, Bobby Bonilla.
The pool is deep of replacement players when you don’t get hung up on things like age.
LoL
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Well, we’re already paying him!
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
lol
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
To be serious I’m far less hung up on his age and far more hung up on the fact that signing a guy who for the last 6 years has played exclusively 3B is not a good use of a roster spot for the Mets. If he is actually still a versatile player who simply hasn’t been used that way then he fits a lot better but how can I know if he is or not?
As far as the age thing, another thought to keep in the back of your mind is Mora came into the league prior to 9/11 and before that there was rampant misrepresentation of age by players coming from outside the US. Whether Mora’s age is false, and whether it has been corrected since 2001, I’m not sure, but something to think about. I mean it’s not likely but it’s possible he’s actually 43 is what I’m saying.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
I wonder now in this post-roids era who is the most productive 35 plus year old outfielder in MLB?
trs86
1/15/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
Manny, he just still takes them.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Thought provoking question. I have some time I’ll look at some stats but before I start I have a question: is Manny Ramirez eligible for consideration?
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
until proven otherwise any plus 35 year old player still playing the game I would think has to be considered.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
sorry by proven i mean proven to have taken roids.
trs86
1/15/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Manny has already been proven though.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
OK so not Manny. I’ll peruse some numbers and report back sir yes sir!
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Manny has not been proven to taken steroids.
trs86
1/15/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
OK lets get caught up on the word steroids. He was suspended for performance enhancing drugs.
Lawyer you are.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Something has come up at my end so it’s gonna be a couple hours before I can do a 35+ OF report, sorry.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
He was not suspended for taking performance enhancing drugs either.
The substance he was banned for taking was a fertility drug (primarily for females) which MLB PRESUMES is taken following steroid cycles to re-start the production of natural testosterone.
It has nothing to do with being a lawyer. It has to do with being accurate, and maybe checking a fact once in a while before it’s posted.
trs86
1/15/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
OK so Manny was trying to get pregnant. Anyway, I think his 50 games suspension keeps him out of the discussion.
trs86
1/15/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
And now I am supposed to get caught up in researching every detail before I post in the comment section. Tough critic. I remember that it was fertility drugs, we all do. We all made the jokes when it happen. But most of us also agreed that there was no doubt it was because of steroid use.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Great. But the fact that “most of us agreed” that he took fertility meds because of steroids doesn’t mean he was proven to use steroids as you said above. Proven by whom? A poll of most TRDMB participants?
Anyway, since you won’t take the time to learn for yourself, it is possible he did not take HCG for steroids despite the scientific conclusion we reached here. Clomid is also prescribed for men.
trs86
1/15/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
OK Manny is clean. You objection is sustained. Next discussion.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t patronize me. Just stop talking out of your rear end.
trs86
1/15/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, I just don’t think this discussion warrants our time when we got Overbay to argue about.
trs86
1/15/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Great article from Amazin Avenue
There are platitudes which seemingly must be re-hashed every time certain players are referenced in any form of media. Some examples:
Jose Reyes – As Reyes goes, the Mets go.
Jeff Francoeur – Gritty, full of potential and he actually gives a (expletive deleted), unlike those other loser Mets.
Daniel Murphy – Ditto Francoeur, but throw in something about a potential 2010 rebound and his questionable defensive acumen.
Mike Pelfrey – A head case. Can’t shake the yips. Will he ever reach his potential? He’s lawst!
It’s generally annoying, especially when the bromide makes no sense. Like this for example:
Angel Pagan – Good player, but his poor baseball I.Q. severely limits his value.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/1/15/1252408/enough-about-angel-pagans-baseball
trs86
1/15/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
What do you guys think about a trade with the Jays? I know it was brought up before but they are rumored to be in trade talks again with 6 teams.
Could Overbay and either Downs or Tallet fit?
njstuckintx
1/15/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
What would you send BlueJays way for Overbay & downs/tallet?
trs86
1/15/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Hmmmm.
Depends on Tallet or Downs. Downs would be a great setup man that could help Feclicano. Tallet gives us a #5 starter/ LH swing man.
I would say they want a 1B with ability to at least platoon this season and a low end SP that could eat innings.
Not sure where that goes. Could be as low as Evans and Parnell for Tallet or may have to include more for Downs.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
I’m not big on Overbay but I feel that Downs and also Tallet would be preferred over guys like Stokes, Parnell, Jay Marshall etc.
KRod, Downs, Feliciano, Escobar, Igarashi, Tallet, Nieve feels better on paper than
KRod, Escobar, Feliciano, Igarashi, Stokes, Marshall, Nieve
trs86
1/15/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I love the idea of Overbay. He is exactly what we HOPE Murphy gives us next year. .279 .363 .449 .812 career numbers with solid defense. Does not block Davis.
Also I don’t think Marshall makes the team either way. It was a minor league signing. Misch one would think would have more of an inside track.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Overbay returned this year to his career norms. But his last three years still combined for only .259 .350 .425.
I’m not sure that even at his career averages, the upgrade of what Murhpy is projected to do is worth whatever the Mets will have to trade for him.
I’d take Downs or Tallet (in the bullpen only) over just about anybody in the Mets pen. I might even prefer Tallet who does not have an appreciable L/R split and could be more useful than a typical second lefty LOOGY type. In fact, I’d be comfortable with making Feliciano a LOOGY.
trs86
1/15/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
Yup those 3 year averages are not great. Of course here is the break down. Lets go back and look at his career see if anything sticks out that might help? Last column is OPS+
2009: .265 .372 .466 .838 122
2008: .270 .358 .419 .777 108
2007: .240 .315 .391 .706 85
2006: .312 .372 .508 .880 108
2005: .276 .367 .449 .816 112
2004: .301 .385 .478 .863 122
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
I still say if your going to trade players it should be for starters 1st but since that looks like less and less of a possibility the closer to pitchers and catchers we get(at least starters at Arroyo’s level). I guess trading for a bat can’t hurt.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
A lot has been written about David Wright’s unsustainable .400 BABIP, creating fears that he will start hitting for a lower average. While I don’t think he will sustain such a BABIP, it is important to recognize also that his high BABIP could be explained, in part, by the league’s second highest line driver percentage. His fly ball percentage was among the bottom third in the league.
This all reflects the changes he made in his swing before and during last season, which he openly discussed during those times. He has also said this offseason that he will go back his more natural swing, which will likely result ln a lower BABIP but more power.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
Wright’s career BABIP is also an extraordinary .350. But again this shouldn’t be surprising as his line drive percentage is 23.7 percent, which is only 2 percent lower than his last season.
Interesting also is that his BABIP this season of 25.7 is only .1 better than in 2008.
I guess this shoots down my theory that David’s line drive percentage this season was a significant contributor to his extraordinarily high BABIP. Afterall, he always hits a lot of line drives. More likely, the combination of his line drives and the amount of field for outfielders to cover at Citi combined with a little bit of luck.
No matter how you look at it, he’ll have to cut back on his Ks this year to continue hitting over .300.
trs86
1/15/2010-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on the K’s. What about his percentage for going the other way? Could that have impacted his numbers as well?
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
Are you confusing him with Piazza? Because Mike denied those rumors and has since married a playmate and fathered a child with her.
trs86
1/15/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
LOL.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
That’s an interesting thought though. Which site has those stats to compare year by year?
The one problem with seeing the direction of the hits, is that it won’t tell you about instances that he tried to go opposite field and failed.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Mr. NJ I’m back so on to your question about 35+ productive OFs. The stats below are gleaned from baseball-reference “average season” numbers and include only people who played “enough” to qualify as a starting OF in 2009. These guys were starting OF and at least 35 last season but I didn’t IMO think their numbers were good enough to include here: Randy Winn, Brian Giles, Magglio Ordonez.
Raul Ibanez turned 35 6/07, his average season based on 2007-2009 is
.286/.352/.501, 86 R, 37 2B, 4 3B, 26 HR, 103 RBI, 2 SB
Gary Sheffield turned 35 11/03, his average season based on 2004-2009 is
.273/.371/.478, 74 R, 18 2B, 1 3B, 22 HR, 74 RBI, 9 SB
Mike Cameron turned 35 1/08, his average season based on 2008-2009 is
.247/.337/.464, 74 R, 28 2B, 2 3B, 24 HR, 70 RBI, 12 SB
Manny Ramirez turned 35 5/07, his average season based on 2007-2009 is
(you guys decide whether to omit him or not amongst yourselves)
.309/.412/.546, 83 R, 31 2B, 1 3B, 25 HR, 91 RBI, 1 SB
Johnny Damon turned 35 11/08, his average season based on 2009 is
.282/.365/.489, 107 R, 36 2B, 3 3B, 24 HR, 82 RBI, 12 SB
Jermaine Dye turned 35 1/09, his average season based on 2009 is
.250/.340/.453, 78 R, 19 2B, 1 3B, 27 HR, 81 RBI, 0 SB
Bobby Abreu turned 35 3/09, his average season based on 2009 is
.293/.390/.435, 96 R, 29 2B, 3 3B, 15 HR, 103 RBI, 30 SB
Ichiro Suzuki turned 35 10/08, his average season basedon 2009 is
.352/.386/.465, 88 R, 31 2B, 4 3B, 11 HR, 46 RBI, 26 SB
So even if you include the 3 guys whose stats I left off, as of 2009 only 11 of the 90 guys that are “starting OF” were 35 or over. At that age you’re either pretty productive or you’re no longer starting in the OF.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
Nice breakdown Grave I can’t help but be impressed with what Ibanez has done. You can see how much of an impact he has made given his age. Props to Ichiro also that .352 ba looks awesome.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
After Manny’s suspension he hit .269 .389 .492. Highly productive but not Mannyesque. But also just a 77 game sample which could have been skewed by his late season slump.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Damon, Suzuki and Cameron are really dispelling conventional wisdom that you can’t rely on players who rely on their speed into their 30s.
Cameron may be the best example of this because his best asset is his defense, which relies, at least significantly, on his ability to go get it.
Damon is evolving into more of a complete hitter than a guy who uses his legs. And Ichiro seems like he can still run (he can still play the OF) and steal bases if he wanted to. But his ability to put the bat on the ball will always be an asset whether he can move or not, much like Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn later in their careers.
Surprised to see Ichiro’s slugging pctg is so high. Just imagine what he could do if he was more selective.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
Players with speed in their 30′s? Tops on that list Rickey Henderson and Brett Butler.
trs86
1/15/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
Lou Brock?
trs86
1/15/2010-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
Ozzie?
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
I never saw Lou Brock play but yes he would be up there. Ozzie Smith I don’t remember him for his speed. Rather his great glove and agility.
wannybackstra
1/15/2010-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
Butler is a good one to look at because his speed was really all he had.
Following on Grave’s examples, check out what Butler did in 692 games from his age 35 season on:
.300 .388 .378 with over 170 SBs in parts of 6 seasons.
In Tim McCarver’s words: Remarkable.
After turning 35, Rickey was pretty much just a one-trick pony, walks. in almost 1100 such games he hit .254 .392 .368 with 331 SBs (87 caught).
While his OPS is about the same as Butler’s, the difference between the two is that Butler was essentially the same player he always was while rIckey obviusly declined.
RIckey also stayed on far too long and really hurt his numbers in his age 41-44 seasons.
Rickey’s age 40 season with the Mets: .315 .423 .466 probably exposes him to a lot of steroid suspicion. It owuld not surprise me if he is the HOF’s resident steroid user as alluded to by Jose Canseco (Cal Ripken wouldn’t surprose me either).
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
The overriding thing I took from doing this is gratitude that the Mets aren’t relying on anybody 35+ to be a fulltime OF and that the current 3 starting OFs current contracts all end at or before age 35.
whataputz
1/15/2010-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
Metsblog has another genius article about how the Mets should just sign Hudson and bench Castillo. First off, am I the only person who saw Castillo play last year! I mean, he had an obp over .400 and batted over .300. Why is he public enemy number 1? I don’t get it. We have a limited budget, and no pitching staff and you want to sign Hudson! You think it’s hard to move Louis now? Lets see how easy it is when he’s riding the bench and you have another highly paid 2b on the roster.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
I will be the 1st to say I have no love for Castillo but I have to give him credit with the bat he did a good job. I wanted Hudson last year and Castillo cut but the Mets decided they could not sign Hudson unless they got rid of Castillo. What is different this year to think they will act differently I have no clue but this talk of Hudson is a waste of time especially when you add that Castillo really did have a decent year and yet the Mets still can’t move him.
Signing Hudson to bench Castillo is a recipe for disaster.
trs86
1/15/2010-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
Depends on how much Hudson wants. Think about it this way. Say you eat 8 million on Castillo and sign Hudson for 3. That means you paid 7 million for Hudson instead of 6 million for Castillo.
But at this point you could be getting a decent chunk of change from insurance for Beltran. Even if you don’t. IF the Mets want Hudson over Castillo then why not just release him? Again, that Hudson 3-5 million is not going to change the budget that much.
GravediggerHebner
1/15/2010-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
I’m asking because I don’t know, but have the Wilpon/Minaya Mets ever “eaten” anything close to $8 mil on a single player? I can’t recall it. Unless provided with an example of them having done something similar before I’m less inclined to believe they’ll do it now.
I know last year they ate roughly $1.9 mil total on Scho and Dirty but that’s not quite $8 mil, and on top of that they replaced those guys at basically league minimum IIRC.
I don’t see them thinking that Hudson is such an improvement over Luis that they are going to swallow that hard. If Hudson had demonstrated clearly that he were a lot better then maybe I would buy it.
Mr North Jersey
1/15/2010-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
you made this argument before but again they are not going to pay castillo to be on the bench and if they were ever going to cut him to sign Castillo it would of happened last year and it did not happen. Now this year with another year removed from his contract it is Jan 15th and they have yet to do the same. If they were going to just cut Castillo to sign Hudson this year it would of happened already. The only way you will see Hudson in NY it is if they finally trade Castillo or God forbid (wouldnt wish an unjury to anyone) he gets hurt and the Mets scoop up Hudson to take his place
saltygary
1/15/2010-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
I’m with you, Castillo was the teams MVP last year.
The cost benefit difference between Hudson\Castillo is far less then spending that Money on another ARMvia trade or free agency.
DNDJohan aka kistics
1/15/2010-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with you. I don’t understand the hate Mets fans have for this guy. Sure he dropped a ball one time too many, but he played well last year and stayed healthy.
It would be nice to get Hudson, but at what cost? Mets already have Cora to backup 2B/SS. So you want to bring in Hudson to have two backups at 2B? That doesn’t make sense at all.
Hazmet
1/15/2010-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Last year I was happy for slappy and his bounce back, when he dropped the pop up I was like “that sucks, but it happens” and considering the next day he tore it up and had a great effort all was forgiven in my book. What I could not stand was at the end of the year when he was forgetting to cover 2nd Base on grounders to short. Completely unacceptable. I don’t care if the season was over, play the position. That is where I officially crossed over to wanting this guy gone. Everybody focuses on the dropped pop up and never mentions these gaffes that to me were far worse.
Kingman 26
1/15/2010-6:01pm at 6:01 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I try to stay as positive as anyone, and those plays really disappointed me.
stickguy
1/15/2010-5:37pm at 5:37 pm (UTC -4)
Man, I miss being able to post during the day. Now I can’t remember half the comments I had when I read stuff earlier!
So, some random thoughts:
1) enough with the Beltran nonsense. Lots of fodder for the pile on media, but quite the tempest in a teapot. Just blame a combo of Boras and a communications glitch, kiss and make up, and move on.
2) Not so much here, but over at MC’s place, there are a bunch of “fans” that are practically burning their tickets in the street, swearing off the team, becoming nats fans, etc. All because of the huge embarrasment of the teams owners (and to a lesser extent the FO). Totally assinine IMO. Get some freaking persepctive. The game is still played on the field, and who really cares about some bumbling in the FO?
Would it be nice to have a bette run organization? Sure, but it really makes no damned difference to me as a fan, except for how (if) it impacts the talent on the field. I might get fed up by players brought in, but not the CEO or a GM.
3) I do think that this should be enough to finally get some real organizational changes going. Probably still not happening, but they should! At this point though, keep omar until the off season wraps up, then do some housekeeping.
4) they really do need a legit guy on the bench that can play CF while Pagan is the starter. Can bay or frenchy handle it?
5) Castillo will get his own post. But, how about this for an optin (instead of Hudson). Felipe Lopez is still floating around, and likely to get really squeezed. Try to snag him now for a bargain price. Gives a viable (although slightly risky) 2B optin, but more imprtantly, he can also play 3B, SS, 1B and LF and RF.
basically a jack of all trades with speed and a glove, so I would gamble that he could get by OK in CF too. And with this team, should get plenty of work.
6), so, get a C (I would rather a cheap deal for Barajas now, instead of the inevitability of Molina), Lopez, still shoot for Garko and a SP (pinero for 2 years I can live with) then be good to go. A guy like Sullivan maybe until beltran gets back?
stickguy
1/15/2010-5:43pm at 5:43 pm (UTC -4)
Castillo? A combination of things. 1 being that he is a good example of stats being misleading (IOW, a number doesn’t look as good when you peel back the top layer). But the real problem now is his deteriorating defense. less than stellar hands, and lousy range, combined with too many mental gaffes, is a bad combo, and I don’t expect him to get bette.
If they are going to live with sub-par D, it better be for a guy that can actually generate some run production. Otherwise, get a slick fielder/light bat type for cheap.
And if they do insist on playing this guy he needs to bat leadoff (if his OBP stays high, which I don’t see) or 8th. Not 2nd.
stickguy
1/15/2010-5:46pm at 5:46 pm (UTC -4)
I should write this down and compare to what the FO actually does.
My plan: Pinero, Barajas, Lopez and Garko..
Their actions: ??
stickguy
1/15/2010-6:00pm at 6:00 pm (UTC -4)
1 more: Why don’t these people just learn to shut up and stop fanning the flams? A simple “there was some miscummunication, but our only focus now is Beltran’s health and improving the club” statement, then don’t address it again.
Then, of course, go improve the club!
I honestly think at this point Omar wants to get canned, so he can collect his $1,000,000 a year (or more) for the next 3 years while looking for another job!
stickguy
1/15/2010-6:01pm at 6:01 pm (UTC -4)
maybe the quote I was referencing would come in handy:
Mets GM Omar Minaya told Newsday, contrary to what Carlos Beltran said in his statement last night, he did not give Beltran an OK to have knee surgery.
“Carlos did speak to me before surgery and we had a good conversation,†Minaya is quoted as saying. “It was one of those things as far as he was telling me what the second opinion was and all… I didn’t give an OK