According to what Matt Cerrone has gathered: The Mets still prefer Pineiro to Sheets. Cerrone believes the Mets have made a 2 year offer to Joel. However, interest in Pineiro has picked up including the Angels who have money to burn. Thus, if a team goes 3 years on Pineiro the Mets will come back to Sheets.
I know this will upset many TRMB readers looking for that elusive #2 pitcher. However, it appears after last year the Mets want someone who even though is not a #2 is healthy and can log 32 starts. With payroll flexibility I am guessing they would sign Pineiro then bring in a guy who can pitch from the pen or spot start. Then reassess their needs later in the season.
66 comments
dirtysanchez
1/20/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
wow…and sheets looked so big on tv..smh
anyway, I think pinero will sign else where. Its been how long that we have been “looking into” pinero and still nothing has happened. I think they should go with sheets as they have depth to cover up the time he will miss….idk…lets just get ST started already lol
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
I think the Mets should try to sign both.
Sheets isn’t a certainty at this point and neither are Maine nor Ollie. Depth at the starting pitcher spot is never a bad thing.
Anyway, I think Maine would make a great short reliever if he’s beaten out by the others.
trs86
1/20/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
I agree that we SHOULD try and sign both. I am just guessing it’s either or and then a guy like Smoltz.
IF you went with Sheets and Smotlz you could do worse than
Johan, Sheets, Pelfrey, Perez, Smoltz/Maine/Niese/Nieve
Of course that worse could be
Johan, Pelfrey, Perez, Maine, Niese. Now that’s worse.
metsfan4decades
1/20/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
I’d like them to sign both too. However, looking at the amount of teams rumored to be in on both Sheets and Pinero, that seems like a long shot. If Omar pulls it off, well, props to him. If we did sign Sheets and he did wind up injured, I’d give Omar a pass for taking that gamble.
CaseStreet
1/20/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
I just can’t see the Mets wanting to send Maine to the pen. He’d be a very expensive reliever. Plus, I’m sure he and the team think all his bursitus and dead arm problems are over with, so might as well throw him out there to start.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
If the Mets only want someone to give them innings wasn’t that why they signed Livan Hernandez to begin with and look how well that worked out.
The Mets need to look at someone that can help them win games and quit f’ing around already.
trs86
1/20/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Pineiro is hardly Livan Hernandez.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
That’s not the point though it is the mentality in decision making.
They need to focus on who helps them win games not who can give them innings.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
You have to do both. It’s a long season.
A starter giving innings does win games.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Look you want to sign Piniero because you think he can win in NY that is fine maybe he can but if the Mets are going to say we signed him cause he can give us innings I am going to need a barf bag.
If innings are a big factor we are f’ed because we have the incredible Pelfrey Maine and Ollie to give us a whopping 5 2/3 innings.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
They are precisely why the team needs someone to keep the bullpen in the bullpen once in a while and to at least keep the team in the game.
Middle relievers are usually middle relievers because they are not good enough to start or finish games. Why do we want to further burden them with carrying so many games?
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
Hence why everyone clamored for a front end guy to go along with Santana so Santana doesn’t have the sole burden of carrying all the weight.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
I think we are in agreement with that too. That’s why we are advocating signing Sheets (to potentially be that guy) and another middle of the rotation guy as insurance against the unpredictability of the rest of the clowns.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
And Sheets does not do that with any certainty.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
No he doesn’t because if he did do it with any certainty the Mets would not be able to afford to sign him.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
There’s some merit to the innings eater argument. Livan wasn’t the best choice because he’s not really an innings eater anymore because his stuff breaks down after the first half of the season. But you will remember that he was quite good in the early part of the year.
The merit to the innings eater argument is that chances are you are better off with 6 mediocre innings from your starter than overworking a bullpen which isn’t all that good either.
That’s why I think Sheets needs to be signed with an additional pitcher because signing just Sheets might result in the same lousy rotation as last year.
TRS suggested also signing Smoltz for that reason. But Smoltz is just as unlikely as Sheets to make it through the season. To me, Smoltz would be a nice signing with plans for him to strictly pitch out of the pen.
Whether it’s Pineiro or the mediocre Jon Garland, I’d prefer the Mets to sign someone with Ben Sheets to prevent seeing Brian Stokes too often.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on signing someone. I just think with Smoltz if he is not healthy then for we do have some insurance for that position. I am thinking that they can’t afford both Sheets and Garland/Pineiro so a guy like Smoltz or even Looper gives the ability to pitch out of the pen and SR as insurance for Maine/Perez as well.
trs86
1/20/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Also I am not sure how they are f’ing around? Do you want them to just blow Sheets away and sign him yesterday?
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Are you kidding?
They and everyone involved with the Mets in any form from the fans to the guy that does the Mets laundry knows one thing. The Mets need a front of the rotation type pitcher here we are on Jan 20th and we are talking now about how the Mets are looking for a guy to give them innings.
This after it was 1st said the Mets had a plan and the plan was getting a outfielder and a catcher 1st and where is that catcher? Now the plan is lets focus on a pitcher.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets nor any team moves down a check list in the off-season. They are fully capable of doing multiple things at one time. Yes Bay was a priority especially when Lackey’s bidding was more than they wanted. After Lackey who has came off the board that we want? Wolf at 3/30? Again, we have had this discussion but if it’s ST and we are still having the same discussion then maybe we will have something new to add to it.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Mets don’t move down a checklist? You could of fooled me.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
So they have gotten nothing done while waiting on Molina, by the way the first guy they were rumored to be interested in?
Like I said. This discussion will go no where until ST.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
I think you are reading too much into it. I am not being literal.
Rather more the philosophy on how they tackle things that come off making them look like they can’t juggle multiple tasks at the same time.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
I am not sure we even know how they tackle things nor any team. All I have been saying is lets wait until ST. If tomorrow Sheets and Pineiro are signed by someone else that still does not mean Omar is f’ing around. He could still be working on a trade that nets someone better. I am willing to wait until ST. Omar knows he needs a SP and his job is on the line.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Nah I’m done with that wait till ST crap. It’s put up to shut me up with Minaya.
But you and everyone else can feel free to wait till ST. Be it right or wrong I’ll march to my own drummer.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
Keep on marching but watch out for the cliff. You have been done for a while and in my opinion unless Omar signed Lackey then he had no hope of a successful offseason with you anyway.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
Like I said b4 I’ll give him credit where credit is due.
The whole giving him the benefit of the doubt died with the whole waiting for the cavalry line.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
I know that is hard for some to comprehend.
trs86
1/20/2010-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
No not at all, so basically in your eyes there was not much Omar could do to be successful this season other than sign Lackey or trade the farm for an ace.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
LoL,
TRS I suggest you spare yourself the burden in trying to understand what I am saying.
We have gone down this road before and for whatever reason when it comes to my view on Minaya you simply just don’t get it.
I appreciate the effort but I feel bad to have to keep watching you fail to understand.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Even though Pineiro is that much bigger, Sheets still throws harder, even coming off a major injury.
The way I look at Pineiro is this: what are we expecting from him?
It can’t be consistency or high ceiling, as he hasn’t demonstrated either by simply taking the mound consistently or by performaning consistently when he does take it, he’s only gone over 200 innings once since 2003, made 30 or more starts only twice since 2003, won 15 or more games once since 2003, struck out more than 111 guys zero times since 2003, only had a WHIP below 1.300 twice since 2003.
So IMO the “healthy and will make 32 starts” thing is not accurate and if that’s what the Mets, with their recent history of injuries and inability to properly use medical information, are selling Pineiro as, it’s hard for me to consider that anything other than a misjudgment or an overstatement of reality. At least with Sheets everyone would be going in with both eyes open to the realistic possibility of injury. With Pineiro it seems as if the organization and a portion of it’s fanbase may be hearing no evil, seeing no evil, speaking no evil, and focusing on only 1 year of his 10 year career.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
True enough. I can’t be upset with either. I can see both sides though. I think the Mets just look at Pineiro as more of a lock for 2010 than Sheets.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
That’s what I think too. Pineiro is obviously not Jim Kaat or Don Sutton and is clearly inferior to Sheets in terms of quality. But he is at least coming off a healthy season as opposed to Sheets who did not pitch at all and had the same injury that Jason Jennings has not fully recovered from three years after.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Mike Francesa jumped into Joe & Evan’s show to mostly discuss the Jets but while there he did drop this bomb: “Chris Snyder is the new hot guy on the Mets radar. Look up his numbers, he could be here soon.”
trs86
1/20/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
If it’s for Castillo I will parade in the streets.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
He didn’t say but unless it’s for stricly minor leaguers, Castillo makes the most sense of anyone on the ML roster, at least the way I see it. AZ doesn’t have a bona fide 2B and the Mets aren’t just going to suck up money so it’s either Castillo or it’s minor leaguers going and Snyder coming with cash.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
AZ has Kelly Johnson, Ryan Roberts and Tony Abreu currently in their 2B mix. None of these guys should be automatics.
But I’d probably take my chances if I were them on one of them over Castillo.
Roberts hit surprisingly well for them but might profile better as a scrappy utility guy. We all know Johnson can hit when healthy and that fielding isn’t his thing. Abreu is a prodigious minor league hitter (.354 .392 .564 in one AAA season) but I don’t think fielding is his thing either.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
But would you to rid yourself of Snyder’s salary or would you rather just release him?
trs86
1/20/2010-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
Contracts are a wash. Perhaps a little cash is involved. Mets would have a little of money to throw in if the deal was right.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Unless they’re really unhappy with their 2B situation, Castillo’s contract is just as much dead weight as Snyder’s.
It’s much easier to acquire depth at 2B than it is behind the plate.
Maybe (and hopefully) they think differently.
But if their purpose is to shed salary, then why trade him for a guy makes the same amount of money?
trs86
1/20/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Let me think aloud. You usually get me when I do this.
Say Castillo and Molina would have cost 12 million for next season and 20 million total counting 6 more for Castillo and 2 for a buyout of Molina.
Snyder would cost 12 million counting the buyout. Stay with me. Hudson for 5 million. Then send 3 million to the Dbacks with Castillo and still have spent the same amount.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Are you sure you are not Hudson’s agent?
Talk about thinking outside the box to figure out ways in which Hudson can be a Met.
LoL
trs86
1/20/2010-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, not at all. I am not even a big fan. No doubt however that he is an upgrade over Castillo and Snyder is an upgrade over what is left.
If you could have Snyder and Hudson instead of Castillo and Molina/now other garbage which one would you choose?
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t speak on Snyder because I simply don’t know enough about him.
I maintain what I have said b4 regarding Hudson. While I like Hudson and would rather have him on the team than Castillo. You have to also give Castillo credit for what he did in 2009 on a really bad team. But I would be lying if I said Hudson is a huge improvement over Castillo.
prismo
1/20/2010-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Forget about Thole then…Snyder’s signed through 2012 for $17.25MM.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
No need to forget him. Most catchers don’t play 162 games. Thole being LH and Snyder being RH I think they could form an excellent tandem, and anyway Snyder is not exactly the standard bearer of good health, he’ll be missing some time.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Also 2012 is a club option with an easy $750,000 buyout, so really he’s only here through 2011 unless he’s healthy and performing well.
prismo
1/20/2010-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, you’re right.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tnUURWBOawaGbKXOD6W_Psg&output=html
That’s confusing…they usually do it differently.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Wow I agree the way it’s listed on that spreadsheet is misleading. In the 2012 column it should really say “$750,000″ because that’s all he’s guaranteed to get. Poor job on their part putting the club option salary in that year and putting the buyout in the following year column.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Snyder is signed through 2011. 2012 is an option. He is guaranteed $11.25m over the next two years including his 2012 buyout.
This makes him a near perfect match for Castillo (2 for 12).
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
I think Stickguy and I discussed Snyder the other day. So Stick deserves credit over Fatcessa.
Anyway, Snyder is coming off back surgery so he is a bit of a health risk. His three seasons prior to this he hit .251 .346 .438 and over 30% stealing. Those numbers make him the best available catcher, probably including Bengie.
He might be worth the risk, especially if AZ is willing to pay some of the bill given his health risk. Having a guy like Blanco, and depth at AAA like the Mets have, may be additional factors in favor of taking such a risk.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
The biggest reason I give this idea any credence at all is yesterday’s report that as they stand right now (with the LaRoche signing) the DBacks are “slightly over” budget and someone from their front office/ownership was quoted yesterday as saying that they will “lose money if they don’t make the post season” with their payroll as is. So they’re in no position to add, and would benefit from subtracting. To be fair the same person was quoted as saying “we’re not in this to make money” so as long as they can break even I think they’re satisfied, but as they described it right now they’re not breaking even.
prismo
1/20/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
If they want to throw Haren or Webb in the deal to save $8MM, I’m all for it!
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
I believe that if they suck by July they will trade Webb then. That’s one thing that gives me some hope about the current Mets pitching staff, the thought that Webb might be available.
FWIW, according to the stat tOPS+ Webb does slightly better than his career norm with Snyder behind the plate with a score of 98 (100 being “career norm”, lower being better like golf). He does much better with Chad Moeller (85) who I seem to recall someone suggested trading for earlier today for some other reason that escapes me right now.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Also, Snyder is a very expensive backup catcher. When he was signed they did not contemplate that Miguel Montero would render him useless.
Even if they’re not trying to trade him in order to profit, his salary could be used more effectively if distributed elsewhere.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah the more I think about it, I was wrong above to suggest that the DBacks send cash with Snyder for minor leaguers, that makes no sense for them. If anything it would be the other way, the Mets sending Castillo and cash (or minor leaguers and cash) for Snyder.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I could still see the Backs sending Snyder and say, $3-4 million, to the Mets for a couple of decent prospects.
They would still save $7-8 million they could use elsewhere. That money gets them a guy like Kevin Gregg for two years, for example.
And the Mets get Snyder for a more a reasonable $8 million over two years.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
I like your idea way better than mine, except for the still having Castillo here part. But yours makes more sense, because it doesn’t involve the farcical concept of Castillo having trade value.
I think their BP right now is Qualls, Howry, Heilman, Gutierrez, Boyer so they could probably use a Gregg, although maybe a LH would fit better.
trs86
1/20/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
True, I know Wanny mentioned them throwing in cash for health but I would be willing to throw about 2 million there way if they sent back maybe a reliever or something to help balance the trade.
Mets would then get Hudson I guess and would not come out ANY worse than Castillo and Molina.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
OFF TOPIC where is Fongy?
It’s not the same without him stirring the pot.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I think you better get the Fongy Amber alert graphic ready Mr. NJ.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
lol
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Well FWIW Marty Noble says with Bengie elsewhere the Mets are going forward with catching Plan B: Santos/Blanco.
wannybackstra
1/20/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
Noble is not quite as reliable as morning wood.
GravediggerHebner
1/20/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
Great. Now the next time I glance at morning wood I’ll see a one-eyed Marty Noble winking back at me. Thanks for that.
Mr North Jersey
1/20/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Now that you mention that you have to checkout this artist on youtube.
It makes what people think of Peter’s chin on The Family Guy look like a walk in the park.
NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4080e1LNmM&feature=related