The "untouchables" edition
This evening’s installment of tiny Mets news:
- Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic reports that despite sports-talk radio czar Mike Francesa’s proclamation that he was on the Mets radar, there have been no “new discussions between the Mets and the Diamondbacks” regarding catcher Chris Snyder.
- Now that starting pitcher Jon Garland is by some definitions the cream (at least the non-spoiled cream) of the remaining starting pitching free agent crop, it is perhaps worth noting that in a poll of 118 readers of the Dodger blog True Blue LA taken prior to Vicente Padilla’s signing with the Dodgers, Garland finished in second place to Padilla. Out of two. With Padilla and Garland the only two choices, Padilla finished with 61% of the vote to Garland’s 38% (don’t ask me where the other 1% went). So Garland has that going for him.
- Given the somewhat unpredictable nature of the free agent market perhaps this means little-to-nothing but just a reminder to proponents of a Jarrod Washburn signing that he’s already turned down a 1 year, $5 million offer from the Minnesota Twins who are not only a well respected perennial contender but also happen to be the team geographically closest to his hometown of LaCrosse, Wisconsin.
107 comments
trs86
1/21/2010-6:43pm at 6:43 pm (UTC -4)
In looking at Washburn’s previous offer lets ask LaRoche about his previous offer. Just because he turned down 5M earlier does not mean he will get that now.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-6:47pm at 6:47 pm (UTC -4)
From Mattsblog (with a caution that you’ll feel like the AFLAC duck after speaking with Yogi Berra):
“…i’ll tell you, it’s been a bizarre day in my inbox and on my cell phone, as i have heard all sorts of plausable and unrealstic rumors involving the Mets… unfortunatly, i have been working on transcribing interviews, editing video, graphics, etc., for the blog, and have not had time to check in with people and see what’s what… but, for the sake of caution, but for the fun of conversation, the Reds are still be pursuing trades; John Smoltz is open to pitching in the bullpen, but would still prefer to be a starting pitcher; and the Mets can still have Gary Matthews Jr., in return for Luis Castillo…”
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:17pm at 7:17 pm (UTC -4)
Well there you have it Washburn fans the market has been set 1 year 5 million which means if the Mets decide to go after him and offer him more money he will turn it down and sign with Minnesota for 1 year 3 million. If they offer him less he will sign for 1 year 5 million.
In other words it’s a lose lose situation if your a Washburn fan because in the end he wont sign anyway.
I say let’s come out and say we are going to camp with what we have since the free agent market looks bleak and we will fill from within. That way the free agents desperate to find a home will come to us begging for a deal because everybody knows nothing makes a person want something more than the idea that they can’t have it.
Take ourselves off the market and watch them come to us.
At least I hope that’s what happens.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-7:22pm at 7:22 pm (UTC -4)
Is there a greater chance that pelf pitches like a 2, Maine and Ollie like a 3 Or sheets performing well?
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:24pm at 7:24 pm (UTC -4)
The fact we are even talking about Sheets should tell you all you need to know about what we think about Pelf Sheets Maine and Ollie
fongy2
1/21/2010-7:27pm at 7:27 pm (UTC -4)
Sign Jon Garland!!!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:28pm at 7:28 pm (UTC -4)
Sign them both
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-7:31pm at 7:31 pm (UTC -4)
What would Omar do?
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:33pm at 7:33 pm (UTC -4)
He will Sign neither and go with Smoltz and bring back Glavine.
-ouch
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-7:28pm at 7:28 pm (UTC -4)
I have more faith in our guys but I still would go after sheets. Even if he bombs niese nieve and figgy could give us 5 like performance
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:31pm at 7:31 pm (UTC -4)
I know TRS feels Pelf is right on schedule but I just don’t know if I can continue to hope he matures into that starter we was hoping to see last season.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-7:36pm at 7:36 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve got 15 wins on pelf, If the team is able to win more 3 or 4 run games
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:42pm at 7:42 pm (UTC -4)
If we can get 15 wins from Pelf that would be great.
I know I been really hard on Minaya and imo deservedly so but all that said the Mets can be special if everyone played to their potential.
Santana 2o wins
Pelfrey 15 wins
Ollie 15 wins
Maine 12 wins
KRod 40 saves
This is possible the talent is there its not like were saying we need El Duque to win 20 games. It’s just can they mentally put it all together?
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-7:28pm at 7:28 pm (UTC -4)
I’d still like to see the Mets take a chance on Sheets, if $$ reasonable. With that said, I can’t begin to predict if he’ll actually stay healthy.
Of the above, my money this year is on Maine. No scientific data to back that up, just a feeling from listening to him so far this off season. Then again, my money was on Ollie having a good year last year so take that for what it’s worth…..
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-7:32pm at 7:32 pm (UTC -4)
At this point, with no other apparent options, all the Mets would have to lose is money. It’s not as if signing Sheets would be precluding them from signing Lackey or another frontline guy.
Hopefully, there’s something in the trade market. If not, might as well get Sheets.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-7:39pm at 7:39 pm (UTC -4)
Trs will tell you it’ll preclude them from locking up innings with garland
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-7:44pm at 7:44 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I don’t think it would unless Sheets is paid as if he is not an injury rehabber (last year’s injury rehabbers including Smoltz, Wang, Penny, Pedro, Jennings, etc. all got paid between 2 and 5.5m).
I also am a proponent of signing Sheets and an innings eater. But if I had to choose only one it would be Sheets and a prayer than Niese and Nieve could fill in enough innings as required.
I wonder if Niese and Nieve could share a jersey with a velcro S and V for interchangeability. It might be a cost benefit for the Mets bottom line.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:46pm at 7:46 pm (UTC -4)
nice idea
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-7:57pm at 7:57 pm (UTC -4)
Sounds like a plan to me.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:45pm at 7:45 pm (UTC -4)
lol
fongy2
1/21/2010-7:50pm at 7:50 pm (UTC -4)
Tale of two Pitchers over the past five seasons…..
Pitcher A) 30y/o,1050 innings pitched, a 72-51 record, 4era
And a World Series ring in the American League.
Never missed a start and no time at all on the DL.
Pitcher B) 31y/o, 500 innings pitched, a 41-30 record, 3.5era
in the National League, never pitched in the postseason, has missed about 65 Starts, and has been on the
DL six times, including missing all of 2009.
Pitcher A is somehow viewed as just a back of the rotation,
“innings eater” , While Pitcher B is viewed as either an Ace
or “solid #2″.
Can someone please explain this to me.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:52pm at 7:52 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know I guess all these scouts just have it all wrong.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-7:53pm at 7:53 pm (UTC -4)
I guess its not about the stats Fongy.
fongy2
1/21/2010-7:58pm at 7:58 pm (UTC -4)
I’m usually one who says that BUT in comparing
Garland and Sheets they don’t lie.
I just don’t get this whole Ben Sheets thing.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:05pm at 8:05 pm (UTC -4)
I think if you look at sheer stuff sheets if healthy can be great whereas if garland’s healthy which he has been you cant say the same.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-8:25pm at 8:25 pm (UTC -4)
I’m more of a fan of these stats from the past 5 seasons:
3.24 ERA, 1.095 WHIP, 8.4 K/9, 1.60 BB/9, 5.16 K/BB
But anyway your argument isn’t with me because I want BOTH GUYS, not one over the other. Only if forced for the sake of discussion to choose one over the other I choose the high ceiling of Sheets over the consistency of Garland, but I’d prefer not to have to choose, I’d prefer them both to be signed here.
I am a fan of John Maine but I really don’t care how he feels about going to the bullpen (as there was some discussion of this earlier today) if Sheets and Garland are here. “Suck it up Johnny,” is what I’d tell him, “these guys are proven vets, you’re not. Would you prefer starting and some bus rides in and out of Buffalo or the bullpen and private charters in and out of Queens?”
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-8:03pm at 8:03 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy ordinarily doesn’t care for stats because his eyes tell him all he needs to know. But in this case his eyes must have failed him.
Not as bad as his stats have though.
Pitcher B has a 1.201 WHIp compared to pitcher A’s 1.387. Pitcher B averages 7.6 strikeouts/9 compared to pitcher A’s 4.7. Pitcher A gives up 8.8 hits/9 while Pitcher B gives up A gives up 9.6. Pitcher B walks only 2 guys per 9 innings and Ks 3.85 guys for everyone he walks compared to Pitcher A’s 2.9 and 1.62.
Since pitcher B turned 25, his ERA is 3.24. Since pitcher A turned 25 his ERA is 4.22. Those both cover 5 year spans.
So to sum it up, pitcher B is better at everything than pitcher A except staying healthy. In the last 5 years, pitcher B has given up one less run per game, has struck out more hitters, walked fewer, given up fewer hits and has basically just plan and simply been better at getting hitters out.
There’s no comparison about the quality of these two pitcher’s performances.
And there’s no sense in arguing that pitcher A is better because he was fortunate enough to pitch on a talented, veteran laden, big market team that had a nice run to the WS.
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-8:01pm at 8:01 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy, I wish you’d stop already – LOL.
You’re bursting the balloon on my Sheets fantasy……
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-8:06pm at 8:06 pm (UTC -4)
The problem with his analysis is that he relied on W-L records which are dependent on two things: health and the team around the player.
In every single statistic that measures the pitcher’s performance, Sheets outperforms Garland by a landslide.
It’s ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
Garland’s one and only advantage is that he is always healthy. That has value too. But it doesn’t make him the better player.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:15pm at 8:15 pm (UTC -4)
I didn’t depend on W-Ls only but innings
pitched and like I said Sheet’s ERA is about half a run lower than Garland which
is pretty much on par with pitching mainly in the AL instead of the NL.
He’s also pitched very,very well in the most important games the WhiteSox have
played in half a century.
When healthy, which isn’t often, Sheets
hasn’t pitched in a big game in his life.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:18pm at 8:18 pm (UTC -4)
I understand your point but you can’t punish Sheets because he hasn’t had an opportunity to pitch in a big game.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-8:19pm at 8:19 pm (UTC -4)
Garland has pitched in exactly two postseason games. That’s not much a sample and is hardly enough to choose one over another.
And since these two guys have been in their prime years, Sheets has an ERA a FULL RUN lower than Garland’s. That’s over the last five years.
No one will argue that Garland doesn’t pitch more innings. But I can’t imagine how one could possibly argue that Garland’s innings are of higher quality than Sheets’s.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:07pm at 8:07 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry ’bout that! Ya know, I always liked him.
I remember him pitching for team USA in the
Olympics and Tommy Lasagna about ten yrs ago.
BUT really, the guy was always hurt BEFORE blowing
out his arm,while all Garland does is go out there
and give his team 7innings,allowing 3 runs EVERY
fifth day. I can’t see how there’s even a debate
about these two guys.
B/T/W, My dog took off today, causing quite the
adventure trying to hunt him down!
Crazy Otto is now his new nickname
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:11pm at 8:11 pm (UTC -4)
Sounds like the only issue with you Fongy is Sheet’s health and I think everyone agrees he is a risk but the difference is you’d rather not take the risk while others would.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:17pm at 8:17 pm (UTC -4)
I would end up with everyone else’s chips at the poker table.
Sheets over Garland is just a bad bet!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:25pm at 8:25 pm (UTC -4)
You may be right.
I still have to go with what I perceive is the better of the two. Right now considering what is out there I’d rather gamble on Sheets than take the safer bet of Garland if I had to make a choice between the two.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:33pm at 8:33 pm (UTC -4)
Alright! We’ll agree to disagree.
I hope that if we do sign Sheets and not Garland that
I’m wrong and he
comes back, stays
healthy and has the best year of his career.
Not likely BUT I will hold out hope.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
Actually I hope they trade for Arroyo and sign Garland but what are the odds of that happening.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:57pm at 8:57 pm (UTC -4)
Slim and none…..
And Slim’s gettin’old!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
Garland over Sheets is a safe bet. You can take your hundred and go home with Garland, but that 100 isn’t going to get you where you want to go. Or you can risk the hundred that isn’t getting you where you want to go anyway for the chance at a thousand and getting where you want to go with Sheets.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:34pm at 8:34 pm (UTC -4)
Slow and steady when
almost broke my friend.
THATs how you build back up your stack.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:38pm at 8:38 pm (UTC -4)
You been watching Rounders lately?
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:38pm at 8:38 pm (UTC -4)
ckek,chek,chek
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-8:42pm at 8:42 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent point with which I agree.
I just don’t consider the Mets “almost broke.” If I did I wouldn’t waste my time and yours, and risk carpal tunnel syndrome, endorsing Sheets.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:54pm at 8:54 pm (UTC -4)
I was more talkin’ about Omar’s
status as GM.
The man is
certainly low
on good will
and the amount of risk he can gamble on and with.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:56pm at 8:56 pm (UTC -4)
Not lately
Jersey but it
is agreat flick.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-9:01pm at 9:01 pm (UTC -4)
Minaya is not gambling but rather he is playing a game of chess.
Right now he has lost his Knight (Bernazard), his rook (Delgado), his Bishop (Beltran), his Queen is in risk (Jeff Wilpon), and he has lost some of his pawns (Tatis, Chavez).
It doesn’t look good
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-8:19pm at 8:19 pm (UTC -4)
Ha! Well, I like Wanny’s analysis better – in keeping with my high hopes. No offense.
Love the name Otto. That was my grandpa’s name.
And my Sophie girl would be exit, stage right too, if she could get out of the fenced in yard…normally. Right now, she’s on the mend for the 2nd of two back knee implants done this year. First one due to a shattered cruciate ligament in the back right knee last spring, second one due to a shattered cruciate ligament and torn meniscus in the back left knee last day of Nov. She only turned 5 this past fall so needless to say, if she was a pitcher, her career would have been over just about when it started!
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:30pm at 8:30 pm (UTC -4)
Jeez, thats terrible!
We will say a prayer for her.
I do have half our property fenced
in but was cleaning my Jeep and
left one of the gates open.
I looked up and say The Ot-dog
running past my like a thief in the
night! I had to double take!
He then wanted to play the “let me get close before taking off again”
game.
Fun for him…Not so much for me!
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-8:22pm at 8:22 pm (UTC -4)
Over the last 5 years, Sheets’ ERA is 3.24, not 3.5. And Garland’s is 4.22, not 4.00.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:11pm at 8:11 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, RE: Health, “That has value too”????
You’re kiddin’ on this….Right my friend??
It’s a little tough to say one guy is better at the same job
as another if he doesn’t show up half the time.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-8:17pm at 8:17 pm (UTC -4)
It’s a value judgment. Do you value lots of average innings like Garland gives you? Or do you value fewer but much better innings that Sheets gives you?
You obviously value the former. And as I said, there’s a value to that.
But when you ask why one is considered a front line pitcher and the other is not, the answer is quite easy. One dominates when he is on the mound, while the other is just average while he is on the mound. Since he happens to be on the mound a lot pitching average innings, his value is best described as innings eater.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:25pm at 8:25 pm (UTC -4)
11-10 4.76
11-16 4.15
11-13 4.45
12-14 2.70
10-9 3.33
6-7 3.82
12-5 3.82
13-9 3.09
missedseason
THAT is Sheet’s nine MLB seasons, 7 trips to
the DL, 600 ips the past 5 seasons, coming off
major surgery to HIS PITCHING ARM.
THIS IS A FRONTLINE PITCHER??
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-8:30pm at 8:30 pm (UTC -4)
Again. No one claims he’s durable. The argument is that he is dominant when he pitches.
When you’re willing to look at the the numbers that I, and now Grave, have posted above you will recognize that. If you’re going to continue to rely on W-L records, the point will forever be lost on you. Do you really expect to see a 12-14 record next to a 2.70 ERA?
And for the record, I have also stated the same opinion as Grave. I prefer to sign both of them. But if I have to choose only one, I’d prefer the guy more likely to dominate. The Mets have plenty of other guys who are capable of pitching to the league average like Garland most certainly will. But they have no one who can go out and take games on his own other than Santana.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
When the heck has Ben Sheets ever
been “Dominant”???
Real good at times, again, when healthy BUT “Dominant”???
Johan, Halladay, CC, Lee, Verlander have been “Dominant” at
times, sometimes for long stretches
BUT Ben Sheets???
Wanny, You have an interest in this guy??…Friend or family member his agent, cousins?…
Something???
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:41pm at 8:41 pm (UTC -4)
lolol
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-9:39pm at 9:39 pm (UTC -4)
over their last 5 years pitched, sheets numbers are better than lackey’s in every single category except innings pitched.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
and by anybody’s standards, except yours apparently, these numbers are dominant: 3.24 ERA, 1.095 WHIP, 8.4 K/9, 1.60 BB/9, 5.16 K/BB
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
I think fongy made his point that if you look at the numbers it doesn’t make sense.
Still all I can say is it’s not about the numbers.
Hazmet
1/21/2010-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
Totally unrelated but.
They just showed Joba Chamberlin’s DUI stop on World’s Dumbest Drivers. Classic stuff.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-8:34pm at 8:34 pm (UTC -4)
LOL. Did they show his mother’s meth lab too?
Hazmet
1/21/2010-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
I just wish he had an “I heart Mom Shirt” or alike on. The officer was talking baseball with him, breathalized him and cuffed him. From this I learned, his locker was next to the trainers room, and the best part of being a Yankee was Yogi comes in every couple of days. Hey at least he’s got his priorities right with Yogi.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:36pm at 8:36 pm (UTC -4)
Hey Fongy for what it’s worth Bob Ojeda and Kevin Burkhardt agree with you on getting Garland over Sheets.
fongy2
1/21/2010-8:45pm at 8:45 pm (UTC -4)
Jeez……Errr…..Nevermind then.
Sign Ben Sheets!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:53pm at 8:53 pm (UTC -4)
God I never get tired of hearing Straw say if you came into our house and you drilled one of our guys we were fighting.
I think I am going to watch my 86 Mets year to remember video tonight and reminisce of better days gone by.
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:01pm at 9:01 pm (UTC -4)
Just did it over the Holidays…..Jeez, its along time ago!……..Still annoyed that they didn’t win more!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-9:02pm at 9:02 pm (UTC -4)
true
stickguy
1/21/2010-8:53pm at 8:53 pm (UTC -4)
one thing with garland is that the only benefit he seems to have over sheets (well, 1 of 2, the 2nd being he is probably cheaper) is actually no guarantee.
Pitchers at age 31 with a lot of miles on them aren’t unknown to break down. SO while Garland has been reliable for eating innings, it doesn’t mean ou can pencil it in.
No reason really it won’t happen, but people just have to be careful with prediticing absolutes.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-8:55pm at 8:55 pm (UTC -4)
Just look at Castillo last year of all the injuries who would of thought he would squeek by?
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:06pm at 9:06 pm (UTC -4)
Having Garland pitch two hundred innings would help
ease the inconsistantcy of Maine and Perez as well as
not put early pressure on Johan to push it too much
coming off his surgery. It likely would help Pelf who is a very, very similar Pitcher AND most importantly not
let this still questionable Bullpen blow itself out
by the Allstar break.
Adding Sheets would just be adding another question mark
to a staff and team full of them.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-9:12pm at 9:12 pm (UTC -4)
All I know is I wanted a starter that would be an upgrade to the rotation. If they can’t do that then I’d rather go with what I already got and save the money for the next GM.
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:22pm at 9:22 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Two facts of life in MLB baseball
is that in order to win you need to score
at least 700runs and you need your SPers
to give you about 1000innings.
Best case, you can only expect about 350/360,
or so from Ollie and Maine b/c of their pitch counts. And thats even when they’re
going well. Now if Pelf con’ts to get better, maybe he gives us 220.
Even if Johan is healthy and strong, they’re gonna be careful with him so that he may not get much more than 200.
Thats 770/780 form that four, again if
healthy and pitchinmg fairly well.
Someones GOT TO give us another 200+
innings, otherwise the Pen will be badly exposed as it was late in ’07 and ’08.
Is it more likely you get 200+ innings out of Garland or an oft-injured,still recovering from major arm surgery Ben Sheets???
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-9:29pm at 9:29 pm (UTC -4)
not for nothing fongy but its too easy to say you need 1000 innings from your starters. its more about the quality of those innings.
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:44pm at 9:44 pm (UTC -4)
True dat BUT with Garland we’re not talking Jose Lima
innings.
Garland has shown that on a good team which gives him a few runs and catches the ball behind him, he’ll go
7 every five days all season
and give up 3 runs.
You do that on a team which
commits less than 100 errors
and scores 700/750 runs
and that can get you 18wins.
Say what you will about this guy BUT b/t 2005&2006
he started67games,pitched449
innings and went 37-17 with
a 4era.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-9:50pm at 9:50 pm (UTC -4)
And for the next three years he was 35-34, pitched 6 IP/start and had a 4.37 ERA, while giving up more than 10 hits per 9 and striking out no one. He had a 1.4 WHIP.
In other words, he was league average.
And what are the chances the Mets defense will be particularly good?
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:55pm at 9:55 pm (UTC -4)
Doubtful it would be better than average.
And don’t get me wrong
about Garland
I don’t think he’s any world beater but at least he goes out there every 5 days which is more than
we’ve gotten from many of our pitchers the past few seasons and clearly more than The Brewers rec’d from Ben Sheets
over the past decade.
Wanny with 3 starters we now have being question marks,health wise going into 2010,
you wanna add another , even bigger question mark??
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-9:58pm at 9:58 pm (UTC -4)
I want to add them both.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:07pm at 10:07 pm (UTC -4)
I dont dismiss he is consistant and again I don’t want to say he is a terrible pitcher that would be unfair to him.
I am I guess at it’s core simply looking at it as on his best day who would I rather have Sheets or Garland?
I’d rather have Sheets
Now if I was looking for a guy to fill in on the back end then I can see how Garland makes sense but that is not what I personally set out for when this off season started.
I said from day 1 we need a front end guy and frankly I just don’t see Garland doing that for us.
Odds are I am wrong and will regret not signing him if he goes elsewhere but I have to be true to me and to me Sheets is the better chance on getting that front end guy barring a trade.
Hazmet
1/21/2010-9:12pm at 9:12 pm (UTC -4)
I’m just getting for an ample belly laugh when Omar misses on both of these guy’s and starts with the “well there still moves that can be made by the mid-season trading deadline, there’s away’s to go, blah, blah, blah…”
My preference at the start of the offseason was Marquis, Garland, then who knows. This was assuming they’d never be serious about Lackey and visa versa. Marquis first since he was a NY guy who wanted to be here, he wins enough and his teams seem to end up in the post season. Garland next because of the inning eater factor discussed here. My thought here was for a good number of starts getting into the 7th sure would save the bullpen. 2 out of 5 starts only having to worry about the 8th & 9th would be a plus. But, John has stated he wants to stay West, if that’s true then my first option would have to be Sheets at this point. Although it might be hard to get him away from his home in Texas.
My preference, as suggested elsewhere here is sign’m both. And while there at it sign Smoltz and Wang on the cheap. If Omar believe’s you can never have enough arms, which is true, then this should be his plan. In a best case scenario and health wasn’t an issue by the second half of the season I’d stack up a rotation with Santana, Sheets, Wang as the front 3 any day of the week. Then backed up with say Maine and Smoltz in the pen that could get us somewhere. In addition if it worked then it might free up some trading chips at the deadline. The argument could be made that if it doesn’t pan out then they just spent alot of money on crap. Well they’ve already proven they could do that but at least this would be short contract length crap expense.
Apologies for spelling errors, long day.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
No disrespect to Garland but he has pitched on 4 different teams the last 3 years for a reason.
Hazmet
1/21/2010-9:22pm at 9:22 pm (UTC -4)
Oh too true, I understand what he is. But if he was being suggested as the teams #5 I don’t think as many people would have a problem with him. But since we ideally are looking for a #2 first I think that’s what he’s being measured to which isn’t realistic. But, by the same measure if he was on last years team he would have been the #2 which is a different level of scary all together.
stickguy
1/21/2010-9:20pm at 9:20 pm (UTC -4)
another random thought about SPs, for the get multiple crowd. Like it or not, the Mets are going to go forward with the established SPs. That’s what teams do.
The SPs with contracts are going to start out in the rotation. Pelf being the future, Perez because of his conract, and Maine given his stuff, potential and contract. So, that is 4 of the 5.
Depth is obviously important, and I hope they add some, but I really don’t see them adding 2 rotation guys like sheets and garland. Just hope you get 1.
Neive I really think is a dark horse to keep an eye on. He does have stuff. Neise has to prove healthy and earn it, but it can happen.
But, those are guys that have options and can logically be in the pen. Probably a reason they are looking at Shmoltz too, since he can be penized.
So, at this point, I hope they add 1 solid guy for the rotation but I don’t expect more, and I really doubt there plan ever was to get more than 1.
even if it is garland, it is an improvement over last year in the 6+ ranks! and lord knows, the Mets are probably going at least 8-9 deep!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-9:35pm at 9:35 pm (UTC -4)
I hear you but I think at $3.3 million (which I think is what Maine is signed for) and with his limited, injury marred track record, Maine is easily shuffled to the bullpen to make room if two starters with more experience and a better track record than his can be acquired within the budget.
I agree completely that at $12 million Perez is going to be in the rotation. I think given the investment of draft pick and previous contract in Pelfrey as “the guy from the system” he is going to be in the rotation. And of course Santana.
But I just don’t see Maine having a stranglehold on a spot and I think a team interested in being a contender, assuming it fits the budget, would be wise to add 2 SPs.
I don’t expect it, but I don’t see obvious roadblocks preventing it either is my point in a nutshell.
stickguy
1/21/2010-9:59pm at 9:59 pm (UTC -4)
certainly understand your point about maine. I was just speculating as to what I expect the mets to be thinking, and how they likely proceed.
Maine just might thrive in the pen. I just don’t think we are going to find out until he gets another chance to prove he belongs in the rotation and his shoulder is healthy.
Hey, how about putting them all in competition in the spring and making them earn the spots?
Oh yeah, that’s what Redding was for last year.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
I trust MRose and he said earlier today that he ran into Maine in a gym a few years back and talked to him about “rumors he might go to the bullpen” to which Maine responded angrily. He was not interested in the idea. I understand and respect that about him, but I don’t think he’s in a position to dictate, and I like your idea of competition.
I far prefer Maine over Redding in that equation.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-9:31pm at 9:31 pm (UTC -4)
First the caveats. You guys are all die-hard Mets fans so regardless of when we disagree on the specific ways to go about it, I think it’s safe to say we all want the club and organization to be as good and productive as possible; you also all have varied opinions about the various professional sports writing rumor mongers out there and whether it’s worthwhile to even discuss the things they write or not; you are all also voracious readers so you’ve probably already read the following “facts” (most of which seem to be coming from Buster Olney) at MLBTR which is where I’m taking them from, so with all those caveats out of the way:
We all understand that Jon Garland’s preference is to stay “out west.” But with the Angels having signed Pineiro and the Dodgers having signed Padilla, while not impossible it makes it less likely that those clubs will sign him. Arizona is on record as already being over budget so Garland is not likely to go there. With Bengie Molina back in SF they are allegedly at their budget limit.
So depending on one’s definition of “out west” that basically leaves San Diego which I think we can all agree isn’t going to sign anyone we’ve heard of before, Oakland which is allegedly one of two teams heavily interested in Ben Sheets (with the Mets being the other one), and Seattle which allegedly has $10 million left to spend. Texas is in the west division so for the sake of discussion lets include them too, and they are also reported to be quite interested in Sheets.
So from all that, assuming for the sake of discussion that it’s true, we have Oakland interested in Sheets and Texas interested in Sheets. We have Garland interested in being out west but no reports of teams out west returning that interest. We have the Mets interested in Garland and Sheets.
I sincerely hope that the cache and reputation of the Mets is not so low that they can’t beat out at least one of Texas and Oakland for Sheets and/or Garland. If any of the information here that I’ve taken from Olney and MLBTR is at all true, I have to believe at least one of these two pitchers will be a Met by spring training.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-9:34pm at 9:34 pm (UTC -4)
nice job Grave
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-9:39pm at 9:39 pm (UTC -4)
I put so much info in there I forgot to expound on Seattle and it’s $10 million. They could ruin everything if they suddenly decide to show interest in Sheets or Garland. I can hope they want Washburn back I guess. Although I should add I went back to read again to doublecheck and now I can’t find where I read that Seattle allegedly has $10 million left. I confirmed all the other stuff though about the western teams and their alleged budgets so just take the Seattle portion with a grain of salt as I just can’t locate it now.
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:47pm at 9:47 pm (UTC -4)
Good job Heb BUT don’t get your hopes up too high!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-9:52pm at 9:52 pm (UTC -4)
Aww man, I can’t have even one of them? Awww. Now this is me —>
fongy2
1/21/2010-9:57pm at 9:57 pm (UTC -4)
You’re asking ALOT!
Omar already got you one pitcher
who didn’t pitch last season in Escobar.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
In the comment directly above I put forth that we should be able to get “either Sheets or Garland.” That’s what I was asking for and that’s what I was expressing disappointment about with my frowny face. I’m surprised that you’re telling me now not to hold out hope even for Garland, the guy you’ve been endorsing the whole thread.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:40pm at 10:40 pm (UTC -4)
I’m endorsing but don’t think we’ll end up with him.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, well all I can say is that’s depressing.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry, just
giving my opinion.
We’ll, like
North Jersey
mentioned earlier, there’s always DVDs
of ’69&’86!
Hazmet
1/21/2010-9:53pm at 9:53 pm (UTC -4)
I just had an alternate thought. Knowing Nolan Ryan is running the Ranger’s which of the Pitcher’s out there would he want? I think he’d go for pure stuff so that would take Sheets off the board and leave us with Garland. Only question is does he feel burned from Sheets last year.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:03pm at 10:03 pm (UTC -4)
I have read that Texas and Sheets have mutual interest in each other. Texas is where he either signed last year before it was voided or almost signed but at the last second didn’t because of a physical, I can’t remember exactly which. They have Mike Maddux as pitching coach who was his coach in Milwaukee too.
But the team is for sale and teams generally don’t add money in that situation, and Buster Olney tweeted earlier tonight – “Heard this: There are a lot of questions among agents about whether the Rangers or LA would have the money needed to sign Ben Sheets”
By LA he’s referring to the Dodgers or so I’m told by MLBTR. Olney went on to say that in speaking to player agents they believe the Oakland As and the Mets are the two teams remaining that have money to spend, which I have to say surprised me, I didn’t expect Oakland in the conversation.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:21pm at 10:21 pm (UTC -4)
Oh Great…FMart hit a hr in a playoff game and went 6 for 6. Last year when he hit a hr in a playoff game in winterball it was soon followed with him being pulled from a game with some type of soreness.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
Not this year man. This is “FMart – The Awakening” 2010 is going to be the year we look back on where the greatness first showed through. FMart ROY.
And yes, I have some Florida swampland and a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you too if you’re interested, I can be reached a KL5-5555, ask for McHopey.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:31pm at 10:31 pm (UTC -4)
Have your people call my people at “pennsylvania 6 5000″
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:22pm at 10:22 pm (UTC -4)
Regarding Sheets and Garland, like Wanny I endorse acquiring both of them, so no one really needs to sell me on the pros and cons of one of them over the other. I sort of feel like it’s a waste of time to keep arguing why I prefer one over the other when I really want both of them.
If the Mets decide they want to make Sophie’s Choice then more power to them, but I want both. I think they work well together. With Sheets you get the high ceiling potential, with Garland you get the consistent average performance and consistent showing up to do it. Those two combined with Santana, Pelfrey and Perez, with Maine in the wings as option 1 to move into the rotation should Sheets sheet the bed, I like that rotation a lot.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:24pm at 10:24 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed but if possible can I trade Sheets for Arroyo instead?
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-10:27pm at 10:27 pm (UTC -4)
You’ll have to ask the Reds.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:31pm at 10:31 pm (UTC -4)
Only if Arroyo is the kid you send to the gas chamber.
But less morbidly, I don’t consider Arroyo in the category of high ceiling that Sheets has. I would lump Arroyo more into the secondary consistent 200 innings roughly average guy category. Unfortunately for him he’s much more expensive than a Garland will be.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:43pm at 10:43 pm (UTC -4)
I like Arroyo more than Garland or Sheets.
Pretty solid #3 guy on a good team.
B/T/W, I think its just perfect The Cuban
kid Chapman signed with “The Reds”.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
Side note: MC’s blog had a link to this site http://www.hotstove.com/ theyre not bad watched a video podcast they did with a breweres blogger and a writer for a local paper that follows the Astros.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:44pm at 10:44 pm (UTC -4)
I never paid much attention to their video stuff but I have read their page before. I find them a nice counterpoint to MLBTR and I enjoy the twitter feed they have on their front page.