Obviously the Mets still have pitching uh… concerns. With Pineiro and Davis coming off the board, even if you did not want them, it leaves two less on the market. In a two part series first we take a look at who is left in FA.
Sheets: Has to be #1 on the list now. News out, however, is that it will take a lot to pry him from Texas. If we remember, last year he signed with Texas before it was found that he would miss the entire year. Only hope there is that Texas was offended by the process.
Garland: I would put him as 1B. Garland while certainly not as flashy as Sheets gives you certain innings and league average production. He had a nice rebound year last year and performed exceptionally well for the Dodgers.
Washburn: Kind of the forgotten man. He’s not a 200 innings guy but had a great year for the M’s last year before getting traded and injured with the Tigers.
Padilla: Loose cannon to say the least. We know he will throw at a hitter if needed. Padilla also rebounded after a trade to the Dodgers. His biggest weakness is that like Maine and Perez he does not go deep in games.
Update:
LA Dodgers signed Padilla to a 1/$5 million contract today.
Smoltz: The old man is hard to figure out. Perhaps the guy who pitched in St. Louis is closer to the real Smoltz. Walking into the AL East at age 42 and not at his best health had to be an eye opener. He like others rebounded after a trade. At this point I only consider him an option to compete for the #5 spot or slide into the pen.
Pedro: Not much news on Pedro. He is looking for an entire year contract instead of the Clemens plan. He pitched well for the Phillies last year, as we all know to well. Problem is that he is obviously an injury concern and also did nothing to prove he can give any innings.
Bedard: I chose to put him this far down the list only because right now there is no timetable for return. It could be as late as July.  The Mets need much more than that. If in July they are in the position to take a chance on him, sure.
Wang: Wang is interesting but he was not good at all in the innings he did pitch last year and struggled the year before. I would take a flyer on him for sure but not as a certain rotation upgrade.
Lowry: Same thing here as Wang. I used to really want Lowry on the Mets. He’s still only 28 and his last year (2007) was certainly good enough. If the Mets picked him up as this year’s Garcia I would be impressed but that’s all it can be.
Mulder: When healthy this guy is an ace. Problem is he has not been healthy since 2005. Obviously he would be similar to Lowry in that I would take a chance on a Garcia deal but we got to do much more than that.
Later we will look at names that may be available through trade.
215 comments
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I think the Mets have to target the high reward players. Does anyone really believe the Mets can make the postseason by just adding Garland? I would go after Sheets and Wang, then Bedard depending on how long he will be out. Outside of those 3, whats really the point?
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
Talk about slim pickings. Wouldn’t be a bad list if we were looking to shore up our rotation. Problem is, I think we’re actually trying to fill holes, depth wise, b/c of so many question marks we have.
Outside of a trade, I would make Sheets an offer. He’s the only difference maker on that list and if healthy (and I’m so sick of typing that phrase)….he instantly makes the rotation that much better. The rest of them do add depth but not much else.
To me, if most players remain on the field this year, this season hinges on the likes of Pelf/Maine/Perez. There is just absolutely now way to predict with any kind of accuracy, what kind of year they’ll have. My thought on who will be the most improved/consistent will be in this order: Maine, then Pelf, then Perez.
stickguy
1/21/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
didn’t even Omar say a while back that the FA class was thin and underwhelming, and that he expected it was more likely to be a trade that brought in someone new?
There really havcen’t been that many trades of any notable pitchers yet, have there? If not, that stuff should really be happening soon, like by next week, since teams are going to be trying to firm up the roster.
So, if the FA stuff left is crap, then either try to trade for something better, or jsut live with what you got.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Halladay
Vazquez
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Gotta give Sheets whatever he wants. No messing around this time. There’s too much competition and the Mets need him too much. No one thinks he’ll be healthy the whole year, all we can hope for is that he helps get to the playoffs and is healthy in Oct.
Throw in a mid-season trade for Webb and we’re solid.
And of course a healthy return from the rest of the rotation.
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
I agree. Sheets only costs money, and considering we were willing to spend over $20mil for molina and pineiro combined, the money should be there to splurge on someone like Sheets. Then, the Mets still have all their prospects left to put together a package for a bigtime player that may be available at some point during the season.
We are going to have to make a trade anyways. As of now, we have many starters (santana,maine,pelf,ollie,niese,misch,nieve) and we may be adding another so one has to believe a trade will come at some point.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
Combined is a loose term. That was 20 million for 1 year of Molina and 2 years of Pineiro. Not sure 1 year of Sheets at big money is a smart use of cash.
Again, if he can be had for slightly overpaying then I am all for it. But if it cost 2 years and big cash not sure I am that keen.
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
your right, i wasnt thinking correctly. combined they were around $13-14mil. I would give sheets whatever he wanted for 2010 if it meant a 1yr deal w/ mutual/invested 2011 option.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Still what is this term “whatever he wants”? Seriously? So in July Sheets is injured and we have no money for an upgrade. Then next year we have to either pay a large buyout or pickup the option?
I like the idea of Sheets but it can’t be just on any terms he wants.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
No way do I give Sheets “Whatever he wants”. Then we are stuck with an injured Sheets for 2 years and no money to improve.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Your looking at it with the glass half empty
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
It usually is with us (The Mets).
trs86
1/21/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
Not sure I understand that one. I could say I guess
Give Sheets 15 million guaranteed and a player option. He is for sure healthy and will lead us to a WS title even though we won’t have the money for any upgrades if he gets injured he won’t.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
You say “we are stuck with an injured Sheets for 2 years and no money to improve”.
I say we get Sheets for 2 years and he goes injury free for 2 years.
This we won’t have money for upgrades if he gets hurt is B.S. who says they won’t have money to upgrade?
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Glass half full
trs86
1/21/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
In theory, the Mets have about 16 million left. Thus that is the idea that they would not be bringing in a big money guy if they just give Sheets whatever he wants.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Theory is just that. The Mets have never said they have a spending limit.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
So based on that theory we should sign Sheets, Garland, Damon, Barjas, and whoever else makes us better this season.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Of course we are dealing in theory.
We are dealing in theory that the Mets even like Garland or Sheets and that either want to play for the Mets.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
YOUR FUNNY,
but at least you understand that 16 million is nothing more than a made up number.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Not at all. He’ll want at most $10M guaranteed plus incentives for 2010 and a cheap player option for next year.
If he’s good this year, then he’ll reach the incentives and he won’t pick up his player option.
If he’s injured then we lose out on the guaranteed money only, he might pick up his cheap player option for 2011 but at least it’ll be cheap where he’ll probably be healthier.
There’s no way I see anyone giving him 2 years of $10M+ guaranteed. And I don’t think he’ll want that since he’s just looking to establish himself this year and get paid next.
So how do you see us getting stuck with an injured Sheets for 2 years and no money to improve?
trs86
1/21/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Cheap player option? Why would he want a cheap one?
Also if you give him whatever he wants don’t you think he will want more than 10 million? You said whatever he wants, not fair market value. I think he gets 8-10M he has already said he wants more. Also if you give the player option I am sure he is not looking to lock himself into small money next year. If anything it will be a large option with a decent buy out.
Also, there is no way that he is marketing himself as just wanting 10M guaranteed to reestablish himself. Check out the quotes from him and his agent.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Always a stickler. You have to take everything literally.
What I meant was, we’re in a position where we can’t be penny-pinchers, and will have to raise any offer given to Sheets.
That doesn’t mean 2 years guaranteed at $10M +. It simply means make the best offer.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that if the bidding stays reasonable for Sheets there is no reason we should not offer a competitive offer. I am just saying the idea of give him whatever he wants is just silly.
oleosmirf
1/21/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
the only way this team is going to make the postseason is if they sign Sheets and he pitches like he did in Milwaukee. I would also sign at least one of Wang, Bedard, Lowry, Mulder etc. to minor league deals.
Santana, Sheets, Wang/Bedard, Pelfrey, Maine is a potentially very strong rotation. Of course the injury risk is there but its only money and there is no long term affect as these contracts would be 1 year guaranteed only.
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
With that rotation though, we’re paying Perez 12 MIL to work out of the BP?
Like it or not, if healthy, we’re stuck with Perez in the rotation come opening day.
I would have no problem though removing him from the rotation if his April is complete crap.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Agreed for the time being, Perez has a lock on a rotation spot. That is why I see the Mets getting 1 starter and then guys who can either come on a ST deal or pitch from the pen as well. If anyone goes to the pen it’s Maine.
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Perez has to be the #5, and the Mets have to be open to moving Maine to the pen.
oleosmirf
1/21/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
well i expect Ollie to play himself into AAA…
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
We’d have to get him to agree to that demotion though. He’s vested and we can’t send him to AAA against his will – that’s my understanding anyway.
oleosmirf
1/21/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
what im saying is I dont expect Ollie to be pitching much for us. I expect him to be as inept as last season…
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I was remembering the Ollie of the 2nd half of 2008, Wow what I would pay to have that guy back for 2010.
That Ollie with a healthy Santana would give us the best pair of lefty starters in baseball.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I pretty much agree with Stick! HOWEVER, I think he forgot
Halladay and Lee were traded this off-season,not that we could
get either,just sayin’.
I think Garland on a one or two yr deal would be fine AND
actually may be very helpful to a guy like Pelf who is a
VERY similar Pitcher.
Other than that though, I don’t think I’d waste the time on
a bunch of guys who are coming off serious injuries.
Does adding a Sheets, Wang or Bedard, even if healthy suddenly
make us contenders? …I don’t think so AND really can any of
them be counted on TO BE healthy all season? Just returning from
surgery? Doubtful. As for Smoltz…I might give it a shot,if it was understood his role would be that of a set-up man for KRod.
Mulder is not even worth saying anything more about.
Padilla is interesting, BUT again, who knows what you’d get out
of him?
Finally, with Washburn, I’ve always been a fan BUT he was bad
for yrs b/f the first half of last season, THEN after being dealt
to The Tigers was just God-Awful!
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
If Sheets or Bedard are healthy, then yes we become contenders. You cannot say the same if you add Garland. If garland is the only move, its a waste of money to me.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm, we are discounting the idea of trading for a guy later. Maybe a guy like Webb becomes available as soon as the Dbacks stink which could be early.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Problem is that, THAT “if” is a HUGE two letter
word! Both Bedard and Sheets have been fairly injury prone Pitchers BEFORE their surgeries
and neither is a likely to pitch the entire
upcoming season w/o some sort of after effect
of their operations. I’m not advocating Garland
BUT Garland wouldn’t be a bad move. A solid mid-rotaion guy who has pitched well in huge spots
during his career. That alone is more than can be said for either Sheets or Bedard.
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Its all or nothing. As I just posted to trs on this thread, Sheets makes us a contender and even if he gets hurt thats ok. I would rather go for it all rather than go into the season knowing its not enough.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
All or nothing is kind of silly. We have a good team that is missing pitching depth. Again we can go two ways here.
Sign Garland and say Lowry. Trade for a guy later if needed.
Sign Sheets and Washburn. Trade for an innings guy later if needed.
Sign Sheets to whatever he wants and have no money for a trade later.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
I would not say Garland has pitched in many huge spots. He’s pitched in 16 post-season innings. He did do well but that was in 2005.
I like Garland but he’s a back-end guy not a mid-rotation guy. If Maine is healthy then he is better. Perez if he returns to form is better. Pelfrey’s 2008 was better. Again those are a lot of if’s and I like Garland but lets not say he will make us a contender. We need both. I see no problem with getting Garland and a risk guy or getting Sheets and an innings guy.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
Neither Maine nor Perez has had
the career of Garland,who unlike
those two has been able to stay healthy and thus help his team every fifth day. And I didn’t say MANY huge games BUT he has pitched
in pennant races and while you seemingly dismiss his Post-Season
Starts, he Pitched very well in helping his team Win a Championship. Clearly more than you can say about Sheets, Bedard
or any member of our Staff for
that matter.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
He pitched in 16 post season innings in 2005. I gave him credit for that. Maine has 13 post season innings and obviously pitched one of the best games in recent memory in a big spot. Perez also has pennant and post season experience. As for Bedard, can’t hold it against him for starting with the O’s. Sheets obvious problem is injuries. He has pitched in pennant races but again as well noted injuries got in the way.
Again, I like Garland but lets not let that get in the way of the fact that he is a #4/5 starter that by himself will not make us competitive.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
didnot say it did.
It would help though
and be far less risky than Sheets,
which was my point.
Also, TRS, don’t go
all Wanny on me.
I’m a Maine fan BUT
my response was to you saying Maine and Ollie,when right were better than Garland.
You’re a little off
on that one.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
I disagree, obviously
Take a look at Maine
2007: 3.91 ERA 180 K’s, 1.272 WHIP 15-10
Take a look at Perez
2007: 3.56 ERA 174 K’s, 1.311 WHIP 15-10
Garland’s had one season with an ERA under 4 and one season that had a WHIP of less than 1.325. His best season he K’d 115.
So again, Garland is much more of a lock to be solid but when healthy and “right” Maine and Perez are better.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
Valid points Fongy.
I think Garland is a guy we should sign but there is an argument for Sheets too. Does Garland make us contenders? A healthy Sheets? Yes. So my thoughts are that you still should get Garland if possible AND try and get an injury risk guy.
Two ways to go. Get Garland and say Smoltz. Then upgrade during the year if needed.
Get Sheets and a low end innings eater that can pitch from the pen. If innings are needed during the year trade for an innings eater.
I guess it comes down to do we think Sheets is healthy, do we think that Garland will do well with our IF, do we think that we can get a #2 by trade during the season and finally do we think that we have the depth to survive a Sheets injury.
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
To me it doesnt really matter if Sheets gets hurt again. you can’t predict that, but Sheets is pretty much the only FA SP left that will make us contenders again. If he goes down then perhaps so does the season, BUT to me if you add garland the season is lost before it begins.
trs86
1/21/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
Again that is discounting the idea that the Mets can’t make any moves during the season. Garland will keep you in it until you can find someone. But if we signed Garland I would try and get a risk guy to go with him.
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
every year omar says he is going to make a move to help us at the deadline. I heard that in 07 and 08. He did nothing worth mentioning. So, I really dont have faith in omar putting something big together during the season. Maybe he can, but he has given us that empty promise before.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
That’s not fair at all. 2006 he brought in Hernandez, Green and Perez.
2007: Brought back in Anderson who had an OPS of .906 for us that year. Not much else. But you are also talking about a team that was in charge of the division at the time and had been in 1st place since May and almost the entire time. If you want to say he should have stepped on them while they were down, maybe.
2008: Not much out there. I remember harping on it at the time. Omar failed to bring in a BP guy and we payed for it.
2009: Seriously. I can’t blame him there for letting the sinking ship sink.
Overall this is just a bad argument to start with because we don’t know what was out there, if Omar tried or not or even if that team wanted any of our prospects.
Also to say you have no faith in the upgrade is like me saying the following:
“Omar has never given a guy whatever he wants after not pitching the year before” Thus I have no faith it will get done.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
So you pin your hopes on his acquisition of a set up reliever that, for whatever reason was seldom used in that role effectively in Hernandez, a part-time RF who enjoyed a nice but brief resurgence and was soon out of baseball in Green, and one of the most enigmatic pitchers in baseball in Perez, plus a pinch hitter in Anderson. Wow.
Personally I think you left off Omar’s best mid-season acquisition (and believe me this is faint praise) by failing to mention Castillo.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
True on Castillo and I was referring to Orlando above who was a big acquisition for what that team needed. Also, what I looked at is what they did for us the year they were brought in. Not much else matters.
Yeah he has not brought in much, but again that’s too easy to criticize not knowing who could have been brought in or what it would have cost.
Again, 2006 I thought he did a good job.
2007 there was not much need at the time.
2008 should have netted a reliever but there were not a lot of big names out there.
2009 well….
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
All fair points. Maybe I’m approaching this discussion incorrectly. The way I’m approaching it is as if we’re eschewing acquiring a high ceiling pitcher right now and pinning our hopes on doing so in July.
In that context, I don’t see the past history with Omar (with the Mets) doing that. He hasn’t brought in a mid-season stud IMO.
If we were able to look back over the last 5 years and point to the July acquisition of a Sabathia or a Lee or pitchers of their ilk who have been recent past July trades then I would not be arguing with you, I would instead be supporting the idea of relaxing and waiting for Omar to pull the big mid-season trigger.
But he hasn’t, unless we consider his Expos acquisition of Bartolo Colon relevant and frankly given the specific circumstances of that deal, I don’t. I would even feel more relaxed if I could point back to a stud hitter he’d picked up mid-season, but I can’t. He simply hasn’t brought in a stud mid-season and that’s basically what we’re asking him to do now if he doesn’t get one in the next month or so.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
But again that is like saying
“Omar has never brought in a pitcher that did not pitch the year before for big money”
We are dealing with a very unique situation this year.
Also, how many times do we know Omar’s job was on the line in NY? We are just about certain it is now.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think it’s like saying that, and since I didn’t actually say that, I am jokingly offended by the comparison.
I’ll sum up my position by saying I’m apparently not as comfortable to wait around for it as you are. The way things are unfolding so far, I sincerely hope I’m wrong and you’re right.
I can’t say that my argument is more (or less) valid than yours, but I would appeal to the social studies teacher in you and suggest that history is on my side. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it so I’ll join you in hoping that Omar remembers history.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Again, history also shows that Omar has not given big contracts to a guy like Sheets. I am not sure there is that much of a difference. Giving Sheets a big contract would be an exception due to the unique circumstances. Trading for a stud during the season would be an exception due to the unique circumstances.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
I disagree that what Sheets is alleged to be receiving is a “big” contract so that part of your argument fails to sway me.
Is it bigger than other injury-recovering pitchers Omar has signed in the past such as Freddy Garcia and Tim Redding? Absolutely, but Sheets is also a better pitcher than those guys by a mile so the contract aspect just falls flat with me.
So my view of his history is he has in the past signed injured pitchers to contracts that the market will bear. Check.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
Which one of those 2 that you named did not pitch an inning the year before. Granted Garcia was close but that was a minor league deal.
“Omar has not given big contracts to a guy like Sheets.”
From our boy Matt: “Ben Sheets will seek “at least $10 million, plus lots of incentives, and a second-year, player-controlled option.”
From MLBTR: “Reportedly, Sheets’ agent is seeking roughly $12MM, similar to what he made in his last major league season in 2008″
Also this discussion mostly started with the idea, not yours granted, that we should give him whatever he wants.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Also wouldn’t you comparing signing Sheets to a deal to the Redding and Garcia deals be similar to me saying the Mets could trade for a big name using El Duque as an example?
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
If by referring to Hernandez as a big name you mean because it has 9 letters in it then yes, otherwise among our many disagreements is the definition of a big name.
So no, I don’t agree with the parallel you suggest.
I can’t in the context of Oliver Perez consider $10 million to be this “big” contract that you harp on.
I am obviously not swaying you and you are obviously not swaying me so lets agree to disagree and move on. Is your part 2 coming out today because I’d love to start discussing the trade proposal guys as we seem to have exhausted (or perhaps “stalemated” is a better word) the free agents?
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
My friend, Sheets hasn’t thrown a pitch
since September of 2008. It is soon
gonna be February 2010. It’s been a while.
Plus prior to his arm being cut on, he’d
spent about seven other stints on the DL
with various aches and pains.
Like I said, if he was willing to accept a Freddy Garcia type contract, fine.
I wouldn’t be locking up 5 or 6 or 8 million on a guy who we’re not even sure
if, when, how or how much he’ll pitch
in 2010.
Even at his best, he doesn’t instantly make
us serious contenders.
Not with a line-up of:
Reyes
Pagan
Wright
Bay
Frenchy
Murphy
Santos
Castillo.
Will that line-up score runs for a month
or two until Beltran comes back?
And what kind of shape will Beltran be in
when he does? AND will he then be able to
play the rest of the season w/o any problems popping up with that knee??
oleosmirf
1/21/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
but its the only chance we have of making the playoffs.
you cant make the playoffs with Santana, Garland, Pelfrey, Maine, Perez unless you have an extremely strong lineup, something we dont have…unless you are naive enough to believe every single player on our team will have career years…
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Again, Oleo, Don’t you
think guys will become available during the season?
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
when has omar pulled off an in-season trade that has made a difference? And perhaps if we get off to a slow start Jeff may not allow Omar to make any moves since Omar will be gone at the end of the season.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
It would seem to me to be a Win-Win!
If he can and does make a deal
for an impact
guy,great…
AND if he’s
not allowed to,and/or
fired because
of the mess he’s made and his failings as a GM, Well
then that’s fine too.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
When has Omar ever signed a pitcher to whatever the guy wants after not pitching in over a year?
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Huh, I didn’t say
that.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
I think you’ve got the lineup screwed up. It’ll be Pagan-Castillo-Reyes-Wright-Bay-Frenchy-Murphy-Santos
Speed on top, hitters in the middle, and 6-8 isn’t too bad.
I’d say the lineup is only 2nd to the Phils in the division.
If you say Pagan, Castillo, Reyes and Wright will all have injuries, then that’s another story.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Case, even with Beltran
back,healthy in May….
and thats no given, that
line-up ain’t gonna score
750runs which,with our staff is what would be
needed to win 90games.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Wow, I agree about needing to score runs because of the rotation, but the lineup seems as solid as before.
Where do you think we could improve?
You didn’t want Molina and Santos is as good/poor as any of the other Cs available.
I would’ve like LaRoche, but most seem to think Murph will have a pretty decent year. Batting him 7th, we won’t expect much from him.
Frenchy as our 6th hitter may need an improvement but I think he compares to Uncle Cliff, Green and Tatis.
The 3-5 of Wright, Beltran and Bay OR Reyes, Wright, Bay seems as good as any.
The 1-2 of Reyes-Castillo or Pagan-Castillo has speed and OBP.
I just don’t see how the lineup (if healthy) is that bad and how it can be significantly improved.
fongy2
1/21/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Again, a contending team in the NL needs
to score about 750 or more runs unless their staff is lights out. Ours is not.
W/O Beltran for a month or two, then
who knows how good when he returns,
where do the runs come from??
trs86
1/21/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Mets scored 671 runs last year with all their issues. They scored 799 in 2008 and tied the Phillies for 2nd in runs.
I don’t see how that lineup is that much different from 2008 if healthy and if not healthy then it’s moot anyway. If it’s just Beltran and he comes back we are fine. Even if he is just average. If it’s more than just Beltran then run for the hills.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
If you believe Bay replaces Delgado and the rest of the lineup is pretty much the same as it’s been since 06, then history shows the team will score more than 750 runs.
Now, if you think Beltran will be out the entire season or a significant part, then yes, the team will drive in less runs. And you are correct.
From what I’m proposing though, Pagan replaces Reyes scoring runs and a 3-5 of Reyes, Wright, Bay should be able to score almost as much as Wright, Bay, Beltran. Especially, if the team is able to take advantage by hitting tons of doubles and triples.
They may not score 800 runs, but I don’t think it’ll be as bad as you think.
Of course if Murph, Frenchy and Santos stink it up, then we’ll be losing a lot of 3 and 4 run games.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
I have been on that Reyes batting 3rd kick for a while and now it just makes sense.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
with Beltran out, Reyes’ legs not 100%, and Pagan replacing Beltran, you gotta figure it’s the best scenario.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. I have mentioned that Reyes next year needs to bat 3rd or 5th but many just laugh. Now it makes much more sense.
Even 5th makes some sense as it would break up our RH hitters.
Pagan, Castillo, Wright, Bay, Reyes, Frenchy, Murphy, Santos would work too.
prismo
1/21/2010-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
This is why I want them to get BOTH players – and they have the money for it.
I estimated $9MM guaranteed for Sheets earlier this morning, but I’ve seen both Ken Davidoff and some Fangraphs writer estimated it more in the $6-8MM range. Garland’s probably going to make the same. Why not go for both and really strengthen our rotation?
Santana/Sheets/Garland/Pelfrey/Perez/Maine is very solid in my opinion.
oleosmirf
1/21/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
I would prefer that as well but I believe Omar is delusional and believes Ollie, Maine and Pelfrey are going to ALL have bounce back seasons…
prismo
1/21/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
I’m fine with Pelfrey, but I’d prefer not to have both Maine and Ollie in the same rotation. Those are two pitchers with serious stability issues – Maine due to injuries, and Ollie due to being an erratic moron.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
I think Sheets gets 9 million easy. I could be wrong but we will see. I am guessing
1/9 with incentives up to 16 and a 3 million buy out on the next year. That’s 12 million for 2010. Scary stuff. Hope I am wrong.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
Very Scary!
Thats but no thanks to that!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
Here is a thought regardless of who is brought in. How bad does Manuel make us?
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
its going to be a challenge, even with the right players, to win with Manuel.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Problem is more that unlike the elite Mgr’s,
he doesn’t make us any better.
oleosmirf
1/21/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
honestly what does signing Garland actually accomplish. He’s not gonna win many games on his own but he wont lose them either.
If we already had a legit #2 SP on the team and we were looking for depth and innings then yes Garland would be a great addition but at this point we need someone who can go out there and dominate almost every time hes on the mound. A healthy Sheets is a top 5-10 pitcher in the league…
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
agreed 100%.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
A healthy Sheets cost a lot of money. Good thing for us he’s not healthy. Oh wait a minute that’s a bad thing for us. Now I am confused.
Look, neither Garland nor Sheets by themselves give us a great shot at making the playoffs.
dirtysanchez
1/21/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
i think its time to just look at the trade market…after sheets, its a serious drop off.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
Arroyo con pollo.
I like that menu
jaydh
1/21/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Yes, if we cant get Sheets I dont really want any of the other FA SPs. But, if we make a trade I want a #2. Not an innings eater, nor a #3 or #4.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Well that’s a recipe for disaster. Signing Sheets with no one to pickup the potential major innings loss is a problem. If you sign Sheets you HAVE to sign an innings guy that can pitch from the pen.
fongy2
1/21/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Dirty, Omar will get to that!
Don’t you know by now…Omar can’t multi-task.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Agreed Dirty and if most of the rest of us agree with you on this point then this discussion is over until “later” when part 2 comes out.
Jumping the gun on part 2, Fongy says above “don’t you think guys will become available during the season?”
My response is I can think of 1 that truly helps, but he comes with Fongy’s injury concerns as well and his name is Brandon Webb. I hope we can think of some others because I really don’t want to enter the season counting on acquiring Brandon Webb as my only hope.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
I think that Arroyo, while obviously not Sheets IF Sheets were healthy, paired with Garland makes the rotation as good as 4 question marks in Sheets, Pelfrey, Maine and Ollie.
Again, I keep coming back to the idea that no matter what we need 2. An innings guy and a risk guy.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
I don’t see that high ceiling in Arroyo so that’s where I disagree with you.
I do agree with you that Sheets alone is not the answer, it has to be Sheets plus the steady guy to truly make it work, I just don’t think the steady guy alone does it and I don’t think Arroyo is “Sheetsy” enough to be the high ceiling guy in the pairing. I’ll take Arroyo as the “steady” guy but I still want my high ceiling guy.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
AGAIN…..”A healthy Sheets”
Big, big…… if.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree with that at all Fongy.
My whole premise is the Mets need a stud, not an innings eater. They have failed to develop a stud in their own system. They have acquired one in Santana, but not properly augmented him. It’s my opinion they need another stud to do that. They can’t or won’t or didn’t get Lee, Halladay, Lackey and guys like that.
What I’m asking is for them to reach for the prize. I understand completely that Sheets may hiccup and break a rib and miss the whole season. I’m willing to take the risk precisely because I know if that doesn’t happen, he’s a stud pitcher to pair at the top of the rotation. If not him, who?
And as I go into detail on above, please please don’t suggest that I wait until July for this to happen because based on Omar’s own track record as GM of this team he has not acquired a stud pitcher or hitter mid-season so I see no reason to expect one this year.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
I gotcha!
Just bustin’ chops,
my friend.
Got to tell ya though,I’d be surprised if Omar
gambled on Sheets.
He’s got to know his
job hangs in the balance of what happens THIS season.
In his situation,
I wouldn’t be too
quick to push all,
or most of my chips
in w/o a solid hand.
Errr, or…in Sheets’ case, a solid arm.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Fair point. I look forward to part 2 of TRS’ series where he’ll lay out who he thinks the alternatives are, because as I said elsewhere in this thread, without doing any research I can only think of 1, Webb.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
“The Mets need a stud not an innings eater”
I still disagree, they need both. It would be great if all came in one but that’s not likely. Even if Sheets is healthy he will be most likely treated like glass. Innings without a B type pitcher does us no good and a B type pitcher with no innings does no good.
As I have said a few times, until July the most important thing for this pitching staff in my opinion is innings. During the pennant race and post season is where Sheets would be the most needed. Can’t get there with Sheets and 3 question marks without a lot of luck.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
Sheets needs to get to April first!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
You’re correct, technically, due to my failure to insert the word “more” instead of “not” which is a bad error on my part and I take full responsibility for it.
Of course, in my comment immediately above I did say “I do agree with you that Sheets alone is not the answer, it has to be Sheets plus the steady guy to truly make it work, I just don’t think the steady guy alone does it” so I sort of thought it would carry down to my subsequent comment.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I understand the concern with Sheets. I don’t think anyone will deny it is a risky signing for the Mets but here is the thing at least for me.
The Mets went into the off season needing to add a front of the rotation type starter because guys like Ollie and Pelf never stepped up to become that in 2009 and they may just never be that type of pitcher.
A front end guy is hard to find so of course going into the off season there was a small list of possible starters and tops on that list was John Lackey and Roy Halladay.
Both are off that list so you then ask yourself do you want to sign another Pelfrey, Maine or Ollie type starter that while may be healthy “might” not be the type of starters to get you over the hump and get you into the post season.
Or barring a trade take a chance on a Sheets a player that if (Yes it’s a big if) healthy can be a difference maker that gets you into the post season?
I myself rather gamble on Sheets than play it safe with a Garland.
At least that is how I am looking at it.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Again the theory with Garland is sign him, bring in a lower cost risk guy and still be able to trade for a pitcher later if needed.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Understood, barring a trade I rather gamble on Sheets since unless I am mistaken there is no reason to believe Minaya can pull off a big trade during the regular season for a front end starter.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Said it a bunch already there is no reason to believe he will sign a guy who has not pitched for a year to a big contract either.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
Doesn’t look good for us then.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Doesn’t suddenly look good if he signs Sheets to a big contract either.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yep your right what was I thinking.
prismo
1/21/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Buster Olney thinks the Phillies should’ve kept Lee in the Halladay trade, and traded Blanton to get rid of his salary.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4844867&name=olney_buster
I still think Olney’s kind of a dud, but I agree with him here. What the Phillies did makes little sense, but we should be thankful for it…
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Buster should watch the MLB Network. The panel went over this very point last night and dismissed it because Philly couldn’t get anything back for Blanton – they traded Lee for two reasons: 1. because they felt strongly he would hit the open market after this season; and 2. because they knew they could (and did) get viable prospects back for him, something they needed to do after trading away a bunch of prospects to get him in the first place. Silly Buster, day late analysis is for kids.
dirtysanchez
1/21/2010-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
I love the MLB network…
trs86
1/21/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
But then in turn traded more prospects for Halladay. Still not sure I like the idea in theory. However, if they thought Lee would not sign the extension then yeah it’s a good move.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
You may not like it but it seems to me that
over the past few yrs, their track record
is pretty good. It wasn’t just that they
“thought” Lee would hit the market. They knew he would b/c he told them so.
And while I’ve stated here Halladay
would be hard-pressed to give the Phils
more than what Lee gave them, he is a
better pitcher.
As for their prospects, they have more on the way, see thats the beauty of the draft.
If you know what you’re doing!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Phillies have Halladay.
Is Halladay a better pitcher than Lee?
-Yes
Enough said, Phillies improved rotation
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Thank You!
BUT take it easy!
Any more praise of the Phils
and Case will call you a
Phanatic!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Your right, Phillies Suck!!!
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Mr. North Jersey is just a Phillie Respector!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
I had to plug “Phillie Respector” into the anagram machine, some highlights:
Creepier Hilltops
Helicopter Perils
Cheerier Pill Pots
Cheesier Pip Troll
Creepiest Hip Roll
Heretics Rile Plop
Chestier Pipe Roll
and perhaps my favorite
Heretic Pore Spill
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Not sure I follow you.
Whether they traded Lee or Blanton, they were going to do so wrapped up in an acquisition of Halladay so therefore prospects were going to be sent away to get Halladay regardless. The difference in trading Lee instead of Blanton was that they got some viable prospects back. Had they traded Blanton all the viable prospects would’ve been going in one direction, away.
prismo
1/21/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
They’d get 1 good prospect or 2 decent ones for Blanton probably, and then 2 good draft picks for Lee after the season. So all the prospects aren’t going in one direction..
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Prismo, good thought BUT
I don’t think The Phils FO
needs our help.
Just sayin’……..
prismo
1/21/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Haha, good point. I don’t think it makes much of a difference in the regular season anyway – they’ll probably win the division either way. But in the playoffs, it could’ve been huge.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
True man,
Like I said
Doc will have a hard
time besting
what Lee did
in October.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
That’s fair but didn’t they get 3 good prospects for Lee? Much better haul than for Blanton, and the purpose of doing so was precisely to re-stock the system after having traded multiple good prospects away for Lee in the first place. The guys they acquired are already careers that are underway, not guys they won’t even draft until June. They understand the composition of their system and know they will need the help sooner than June provides it and thus took appropriate action IMO by getting more, having it be better, and having it be “ready” sooner than if they had instead traded Blanton. Plus they’ll presumably get picks when Blanton walks.
prismo
1/21/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
I understand that. I just think this team is ready to win big this season, and this could have put them over the top.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Fair point, can’t argue with it. But recent history shows them being over the top anyway. Back to back WS appearances and all that. What have the Mets, Marlins or Braves done to scare them?
Now if the Mets actually get (or have someone magically turn into) a viable # 2 starting pitcher and Beltran comes back quick and his old self, or the Braves manage to keep Troy Glaus and Chipper Jones healthy and productive all year, or the young Marlins all grow up together, then maybe the Phils will live to regret it. But until then, barring injury to their key player(s), they still reign.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
I was approaching it from keeping Lee and trading Blanton. Having nothing to do with Halladay.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Well if Halladay were simply staying in Toronto, or going somewhere other than Philly, then I completely agree with you that they should’ve traded Blanton instead of Lee.
I don’t think anyone would argue FOR trading Lee without Halladay in the equation.
trs86
1/21/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, but I just did not see the need for trading Lee for Halladay unless Lee declined a contract extension.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Isn’t that what happened I was under the impression that Lee wanted to go to free agency and was not willing to sign a contract extension with the Phillies where Halladay was willing.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
But he did!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know if we’ll ever know for sure if he declined one or not, seems to be a lot of “he said, Lee said” aspect to that discussion, but the Phils front office felt strongly enough that he would reject one as to make the move.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t say that he did or did not. I would assume that he would not have but then again, why? Unless the Phillies were not going to offer him market value or unless he did not want to be there.
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Well, I think everyone knows it’s a no brainer that trying to keep Lee and getting Halladay would have been the best case scenario.
I see Phillies reasoning though why they went down the road they did. There was no guarantee Lee signs with them after this year. Halladay they were able to lock up for several years. Trading Blanton to keep Lee still doesn’t guarantee they’ve got Lee after this year. And you lose Blanton in the process.
Only way it would have made sense to try and keep Lee this year is if they thought their window of opportunity has a serious drop off after this year. And I don’t think they see it that way – even with the guys who become FAs end of 2010/2011.
fongy2
1/21/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Agreed! Being in their market, you get the
feeling the want to/ expect to win now BUT
don’t want to completely mortgage or gamble
too much on their future beyond 2011.
stickguy
1/21/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
well, being in the philly market I got to see/read/here a lot about this!
The real debate was that they should have kept Lee and tried to dominate, and not worry about the prospects they got back. But, team apparently felt they had enough to get to the PS anyway without him. I just hope they are wrong!
also, Blanton is a FA after 2010, so if they wanted him back, they could have still gotten him.
And, after the 2011 season, most likely the window is closed, or at minimum, the team is vastly different after having to retool quite a bit.
fongy2
1/21/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
My last word on this Sheets-Love-in….Hey wait, wasn’t that
John and Yoko’s thing…..IS, please…take another look at
his career….In the past FIVE seasons,he’s thrown about 600
innings. He hasn’t thrown 200 or more since 2004…THAT’S 2004.
After setting his carreer high that season, he suffered all sorts
of fairly minor injuries, pitching 156,106 and 141 innings over
the next three years. THEN in 2008, got close to 200, pitching
198 innings. Again, the most since 2004. Then while trying to get to 200, blew out his arm. For all the “Lackey has only won
more than 14 once” ranters, Sheets has never won more than 13 in
a season AND did so in the year he pushed it and again, blew out
his arm. It looks to me that a healthy Sheets is more likely
to be a 10 to 12 game winner with a close to 4era, who will spend
some time on the DL and not likely even give you 200innings.
Now, THATs an Ace?? Or even a lock #2??
I hope and think Omar knows better.
6 million, 8,9 million for THAT???
Sorry, fellas…I just don’t get it.
trs86
1/21/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmmm. Valid points.
I guess the best way of putting it is that Sheets when healthy is better than our other options.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
156 thousand innings is a lot. What’s the problem with that?
stickguy
1/21/2010-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
guys getting all worked up in here today.
I guess I am off by myself thinking the mets are actually contenders even without adding Sheets or a mythical “#2″.
Yes, it requires some amount of luck (good fortune), such as an unheralded young guy coming out of nowhere to have a big year, a reclaimation project hitting the fountain of youth, or guys rebounding from injuries to have a big (and full!) year. That, and some plain old good luck.
But, other than maybe the Yankees to some extent, that is exactly the same for every other team. Tampa 2 years ago, the Rockies, and every other team that had a 1-year wonder surprise year (often never duplicated) in the same boat.
SO while ti would be nice if the Mets could upgreade at 5 more positions ont he roster, not doing so doesn’t doom them to also ran status. Might make the odds a touch better, but certainly doesn’t guarantee anything.
ALl teams (mets included) have flaws. The MEts also happen to have a bunch of talent that keeps getting lost in the shuffle and background noise about the FO follies. And the real point of the off season is to collect as much talent as possible, then hope it leads to enough wins during the season to make things interesting.
And has been discussed elsewhere, you also have to improve what and when you can. If you can’t improve SP, add talent somewhere else.
Remember 2006? That was the Mets “miracle” year. No one picked them for 95 wins, but they had a talent base that clicked, and the extra parts added worked out. Even with seemingly no SP worth diddle.
fongy2
1/21/2010-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, I think Sheets IS a mythical #2 SP!
trs86
1/21/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
LOL
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
And I think a mythical # 2 is better than none at all.
Yes Stick you are absolutely correct in your third and fourth paragraphs. I understand and can relate to the valid points and logic in them. It’s just that in the context of coming up short in 2006, even shorter in 2007 and 2008, then being just woeful in 2009, I want more than hoping for all the things you mention in those paragraphs.
If the previous few years had turned out differently I would have much more of the faith/hope/patience that you and TRS and others are exhibiting. But they didn’t, and I don’t.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
the thing is, most teams don’t have so many question marks around their rotation. Santana, Ollie and Maine all coming back from injuries and Pelf seeming to unfold under Warthen.
Then you throw in question marks around our CORE position players, having below average support players and you’ve got a recipe for disaster.
Sheets may not be THE answer, but at least he’ll give us some hope. It’ll still require the rest of the rotation to step up and the team to stay healthy. Otherwise, we’re stuck hoping on our current rotation, hoping Omar finally makes a trade, and hoping for another miracle. All that hoping makes us out to be a bunch of suckers.
trs86
1/21/2010-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
Of course he is also another question mark thrown on to a team with a lot of question marks.
trs86
1/21/2010-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
“at least he’ll give us some hope”
“All that hoping makes us out to be a bunch of suckers.”
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
quite a conundrum
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
Which at this stage should be the 2010 Mets slogan.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
What is so sad about these 140 plus comments is that we are reduced to debating the merits of signing Sheets.
Minaya & the Mets have lowered the bar on what fans should expect when it comes to improving the team.
trs86
1/21/2010-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, ???
You got me on this one again.
trs86
1/21/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
Related:
Cerrone notes:
“Ed Price of AOL Fanhouse believes the Mets offered a two-year deal, worth around $15 million to Joel Pineiro.
Instead, he signed a two-year deal, worth about $16 million, with the Angels last night.”
He then ask should the Mets have offered more money and has a poll for yes or no.
It’s not that easy. How much more would it have taken to get him to pick us over LA. Perhaps he really wanted to be in LA. Based on this question it would assume the Mets lost Pineiro over 1 million bucks or never really wanted him. Most likely neither of these are true.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
Polling in general lacks nuance and substance and is a scourge on society, paralyzing weak people who hold power and action positions. Lets take a poll:
Should polling be banned?
Yes
No
Unsure
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
Cerrone’s polls are so stupid. you can predict the results once you read the question.
Ask something that is more thought provoking like
“Do you feel that Piniero not signing with the Mets is more about the Mets in a whole as an organization or about the money?”
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yes. No? Unsure!
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
lol face it his polls really offer no new insight. I love it when he used to do a segment and says things like according to polls i did on my blog 83% say blah blah blah.
Idiot.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
If someone was going to pay me as much $15-$16m dollars over the course of two years, I’d probably not quibble over a million or two if the lower of the offers provided me with the opportunity to park my car without the fear of having to dig it out of the snow.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
You are assuming that people think snow is a bad thing.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
Very true. We also don’t usually get all the perks that are included. Also, how could we forget that NY’s tax rate is running everyone to where I live.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
I thought they just wanted to be closer to you!
NJ: the moral of the story is that Pineiro may have preferred to go to Anaheim regardless of whether the Mets were willing to increase their offer by a million or two. For whatever reason.
Oftentimes the Mets, and even the Yankees, are only lead on to drive up the price on the preferred destination.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, so it’s never just easy enough to say:
“They got him for 2/16, why can’t the Mets do that? Stupid Omar”
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
Sure it’s easy watch, “Stupid Omar”.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously we have a lot of reasons to call Omar stupid but in my opinion that’s not one of them.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Your opinion is duly noted.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
I think that goes without saying.
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
LOL – Wanny, you’re completely missing the point.
If you’re making that kind of money, your car is very nicely garaged and there is some poor guy trying to keep one step ahead with his plowing business who is coming along and plowing his driveway and possibly street before he even wakes up.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Though far from a multi-millionaire, a one-time millionaire or someone not buried in debt, I admit to having called someone to plow my driveway last month…
I’m ashamed.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
I have a driveway that is roughly 10 car lengths long and then at the bottom about 3 cars wide. I grew so tired of shoveling it that I finally just bought a four-wheel drive car. Now I just shovel a path from my house to the car, then drive out over/through the snow & ice.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
That’s the plan when the lease is up this summer.
I wish my lease was up right now, car prices are great right now!
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
You’re an educated thoughtful guy so you’ve probably already realized this but once you make the change your life will be improved in so many ways. No more shoveling or paying for plowing, no more leaving early to allow more driving time in winter conditions, no more canceling plans due to weather affecting car travel, fewer visitors because they won’t be able to get into or out of your driveway so therefore less hosting and more being hosted. Enjoy!
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
Are you kidding? I say good for you!
I’d have someone plow my two driveways every snowfall if I could. No spring chicken anymore and even with a snowblower, it’s hours of work for hubby and me.
Mr North Jersey
1/21/2010-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
OFF TOPIC – I don’t know why Jets fans are so determined to get Francesa to say the Jets win was not a result of luck.
His opinion doesn’t mean it is so.
If the Mets win in 86 was in Francesa’s opinion because of luck when Buckner threw the wild pitch that tied the game. Do you think I give a rats f*** that Francesa felt that way?
Get over it Jets fans enjoy it and tell Francesa because he thinks it was luck doesn’t make it true.
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
I do agree with Fatcessa that Colts management’s decision to deprive his players the opportunity to compete for a perfect season was a disgrace.
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
I find myself brain dead here this afternoon working, so I decided to stream WFAN. Why, I have no idea b/c I do not like MF and I’m not a big football fan but….
Man….he really hates the Jets, doesn’t he? He just will not get off the Jets being in the playoffs is a ‘gift’. That’s, ‘G-I-F-T’ a Mike keeps pointing out. LOL.
Jerz, that’s Bob Stanley with the wild pitch but yes, I totally agree with your point.
I won’t pretend to have any idea why the Colts didn’t go for the undefeated season but, this reminds me a little of the end of the 2008 season, I believe. If we won and the Brewers lost, we’d have a playoff game for the wild card. Cubs, who were already in post season and playing the Brewers decided to rest most of their starters and play the game with a two inning a piece pitching efforts – most out of the BP. Most Met fans certainly didn’t appreciate that. Didn’t matter in the long run anyway b/c we lost our game to the Marlins, no matter that the Brewers won.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
Announcing this (for you Grave) part 2 in this discussion will come later….. Tomorrow.
Taking a while to dig up rumors.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
I understand and appreciate that you have a family, a job and a life so I don’t expect immediate gratification. I appreciate the update, thank you.
But, I would say (and truly mean) that your own ideas are very very close to being as relevant as those of paid rumor mongers (the only thing that makes them unequal is that you are not to my knowledge a paid rumor monger) and so in that vein you need not wait to find their rumors, feel free to start some of your own.
All previous trade proposals of yours that I’ve read, whether I agreed with them or not, at least seemed just as grounded in reality as those of the Heymans and Rosenthals of the world. In fact some of yours more so. If you can come up with an arguably legitimate reason as a starting point for a trade proposal that’s good enough for me. You know, not the “Eddie Kunz for Felix Hernandez” tripe that fools put forth but actual stuff like “the Cubs have no established 2B and Carlos Zambrano’s contract is absurd so perhaps something involving Luis Castillo.” Works for me as a starting point.
trs86
1/21/2010-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks, what I have done is compile a list of guys that are either up coming FA, mentioned on MLBTR as possibly being available and looked at each roster to see where there could be others. The trade front is hard. The M’s might say no way they trade Lee they are going for a championship. But then come July they may be out of it and Lee might have sent signals that he is not staying… So many different variables go into it.
Thus leads to your point that it could be harder for Omar to make a trade than sign Sheets. To that I completely agree, it will be much easier to just go get him. However, I do think there will be very good pitchers on the market between now and July. As good as Sheets? Who knows? How good will Sheets be? Will he have to be protected? Will he be recovered? Will the player that we trade for have a break out season like Maine or Perez did? Will they rebound with a trade the way that so many in the FA market did last year?
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Cool. As I’ve repeated over and over to the point of everyone’s eyes glazing, here in late January I am just looking for a little more of a reasonable-to-expect-with-health-high-ceiling guy now as opposed to maybe some largely- unknown-heretofore-mediocre guy will come to the Mets in July and just catch fire but I realize this blog isn’t just for me so I look forward to some of the names you’ll be bringing up tomorrow and the resulting discussion of them.
I think it was the great British poet Jagger who said “you can’t always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need” so I have that to keep me warm.
trs86
1/21/2010-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, true. I just wish I was as certain as you that Sheets would have even a 50/50 chance of working out.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not that certain and I apologize if I have suggested that I am. All I’m relatively certain of is that if he’s healthy, he’s an ace. But I realize the percentage chance of his being healthy could realistically be portrayed as say 0.01% I just wanted, among other things, a guy reasonably capable of that on hand. That’s all. If I’ve characterized it any other way than that I apologize for wasting all of our time.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
Blanton gets 3 years and 24M….. I dont quite understand that move..
trs86
1/21/2010-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Easy, better than paying him 10.25 this year alone.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
if he had actually received 10.25M in Arbitration, that judge should be fired.
The guy is a horse, no doubt.. but 10M for him???? he made around 5M I think last year.. his season did not deserve a 100% raise!
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
3/24 makes sense considering Wolf’s 3/30, Pineiro’s 2/16 and other other contracts recently awarded.
I think that’s about right, if not pretty favorable for the Phils.
He’ll give them 200 IP of something around a 4.00 ERA (probably better on the road), doesn’t walk many and is consistent.
stickguy
1/21/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
well, he wasn’t an option anyway since he was in arbitration, but now not available after the season!
Odd by the Phils though. GUess they want to lock in some of their old guys past 2011 after all.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
sorry, I knew he wasn’t an option… was just speaking off topic as I think signing him to 3 years and 24M is a BIG BIG risk
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
How so?
He’s 28, takes the ball more than 30 games a year and pitches to league average (102 ERA+).
$8m is what average guys get paid these days. See Pineiro, Joel.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
i guess I just can’t understand how league average gets you that kind of contract. I think Piniero got too much, but at least his is one less year.
If I were the Phils, I would have taken this to arbitration, because I don’t see how he ends up much higher than the 7M plus they offered him. I read that the first year of this contract is around 7M, and they like it because it guarantees that they have some money to fill otehr small holes..
I guess they didn’t want to gamble.. but with more important players like (even though I hate him) Victorino, Werth, Ruiz and even Rollins all either not signed to long term deals or their deals are coming up, I just think they could have gone differently.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
You may not and that’s fine, but if you put any credence at all in the FanGraphs dollar value system, Blanton was worth $9.7 million based on last year’s performance, and $10.1 in ’08, $23.1 in ’07 and $12.3 in ’06.
Now for fun: Oliver Perez was worth minus $3.4 million in ’09, $5.8 in ’08, $8.8 in ’07 and minus $200,000 in ’06.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
Yea… I don’t put that much into the system..
I’m not gonna act like I’ve looked into its formulas.. but something tells me it obviously takes a guy like ARod with a huge salary and then will put everyone up against that being the “top” dollar, so then if a no name 3b were to have a 310 season hitting 30 hr’s and 120 RBI, they’d have a pretty nice worth..
I basically just hate that a 3 or 4 starter is getting 8M a year. If you want to go that argument that a Piniero or Blanton are league average, then why don’t you just bite the bullet on Cliff Lee this year? Go at an almost guaranteed NL Championship with a Ridiculous shot at another ws. Then if Lee leaves, you get 2 picks AND you take the 8M and sign mr mediocre. They had to know that Blanton would want at least a small raise to that 7-8M number. They may have been caught off guard by 10M, but it seems short sighted and brings back the curiosity of trading Lee again.
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
I understand your point about the FanGraphs values and find your take fair.
Those values aside I don’t like the money mediocre starters get either, but it is the reality of the league, and despite the economy bringing down the salary of marginal free agents it does not bring down the salary of marginal arbitration eligibles which is why many teams choose to release them instead.
I know they weren’t going to get Lee for 3/24, not that you suggested they might. But ultimately I understand and accept the alleged rationale for their trading Lee instead of Blanton.
As much as it pains me to say it I think they got good value and cost certainty for Blanton. He is not so inconsistent and his contract is not so absurd that they can’t trade him later if they deem it appropriate.
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, are you guys trying to tell me something? Comments were closed to me for like 15 minutes, no reply option. Meanwhile, I saw others having no problem adding comments.
Is it b/c I’m starting to sound a tad negative about this off season so far? LOL.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
damn! you are onto us!
Probably just some quirkiness… I think comments were closed for me too.. i just refresh refresh refresh
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
I hope you realize I wish just joshing, not serious. No worries…..
Sometime humor/sarcasm doesn’t translate well on these blogs…..
mrose
1/21/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
that was sarcasm
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
I see Dodgers just signed Padilla – not that I wanted him in a Met uniform.
Just commenting that the field of FA pitchers is getting smaller and smaller.
dirtysanchez
1/21/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
not only smaller and smaller..worse and worse. Who available does not carry a reasonable amount of risk(injury wise) other than garland who can help us. We are in a tough spot and 2009 is big reason why imo
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
So Dodgers out of the Garland race.
If we can have him for $5-7M and Sheets for $9M + incentives, there’s the $16M Lackey received.
Still, I can’t see how Omar brings in two pitchers. I guess if he’s able to pull both of these guys, he could then try to trade Maine for something. I doubt Maine would be happy or effective in the BP.
But if you do trade Maine, was Garland at $5-7M better than Maine at $3.3M?
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
To me, it depends on what we get back for Maine.
Bring Garland in, try and make a trade with maybe the Reds?
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Maine has been fantastic in 8 relief innings in his career!
On a serious note, I don’t see why he couldn’t succeed in the bullpen. He could dial up his fastball a mph or two, would not need to worry about all of his secondary pitches (he would only need to work with the one that was working best that day) and wouldn’t have the concerns he has now of being able to get through a 6th inning.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
you are probably right.
I was thinking more down the line of he’s been a starter his entire career and busted his butt to start and his new contract has incentives for games started, so to send him to the BP may not make him a happy camper and thus poor performance.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Take this one for how much you want to believe me but..
a couple years ago (when Maine was out for Bone Spurs) late in the 08 season I talked to him at the Gym in the building I Lived at (he lived there too) and Mentioned people were talking about the bullpen for him.
He point blank said “who is saying that? those bloggers? I’m not going to the bullpen”
He wants to be a starter.. or at least he did then.. I’m sure if there are literally no other spots somehow than bullpen or minors or jobless.. he’ll go bullpen.. but he seemed pretty annoyed.
for the record, at that time.. I was not a blogger and there was a certain someone who was the big blogger for the Mets…
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting….
Maine strikes me as a serious competitor. Here’s hoping, now that he’s supposedly healthy, he steps up to the plate and shows us just how serious he is about being a starter. I think he’s got what it takes to be our solid #3 this year. Hopefully, he won’t prove me wrong….
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
that’s the thing.
Both Maine and Perez have been able to win 15 games. That’s what I want from a #3.
Pelf has won 13 games which is what I’d want from a #4.
If we can at least similar performances from these guys and bring in someone who profiles in between Santana and the rest, we should be good.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
maybe, bringing in Garland for cheap now and Webb mid-season is the best alternative.
Garland solidifies the back end of the rotation plus saves the pen.
Hopefully the D-Backs crash and burn quickly, while Webb returns to his 06-08 performance.
Question: Do you have more hope in Sheets being a dominant pitcher who can pitch more than 150 innings or Omar trading for Webb who can return to his 06-08 Cy Young like performance?
wannybackstra
1/21/2010-4:45pm at 4:45 pm (UTC -4)
I have more faith in Sheets pitching 150+ innings than I do in Omar being able to pull off a deal for Webb and it has more to do with the Mets lack of trading chips than with my confidence in Sheets.
A dominant Webb will have a lot of suitors, especially without a long-term commitment or a no-trade clause. Omar probably has the chips to get Webb but it would likely leave the Mets without any blue chip prospects.
Alternatively, we may see some guys improve their values and add to the stock.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
true,
I guess the best alternative would be for Pelf to summon his inner Webb so a trade won’t be necessary.
That way, Niese can be our #5 in 2011 and Mejia replaces Ollie in 2012.
DNDJohan aka kistics
1/21/2010-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve been missing out all the talks… but apparently I heard that the Mets offered more money to Pineiro, but he chose Angels??
Am I missing something here guys?? When did the Mets all of sudden become the team nobody wants to sign? I thought money was good whether it’s in NY or LA… Perhaps these players are afraid of us Mets fans and the media? I don’t understand….
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Or mamybe they’re afraid of the Mets F.O. and that doesn’t stand for Front Office, though they are the same.
mrose
1/21/2010-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
I thought it was reported the Mets offered 2/15?
Either way.. I’m not taking much stock into this.. for all we knew he liked the Angels all along but they were quiet until the last second?
Can the season start already?
DNDJohan aka kistics
1/21/2010-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe I was wrong on the Mets offer (I thought I heard it on the radio..), but this offseason I’m getting a sense that nobody wants to come to the Mets…
Molina signs with the Giants even if the Mets offered more money
You hear Bay would rather go to Beirut (true or not)
and Pineiro goes elsewhere?
Am I missing something?
GravediggerHebner
1/21/2010-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, it was the Angels that offered more money, though there are some stories out there alleging that the Mets were “willing to go higher.”
It’s not always about the money. Having said that, how much this may have had to do with it I can only speculate, but I think when your front office is a laughing stock and you have well publicized problems in the general area of player health and communication related to it, even in a down economy you may have to overwhelm people financially to get them to come to camp chaos.
As much as I have previously embraced the idea of the Mets holding fast to fair offers in this market, I am starting to come around to the possibility that they may just have to “outbid themselves” for a player that they truly want.
CaseStreet
1/21/2010-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
that, and the road to the playoffs is probably easier in LA and SF. Plus the weather is nicer.
saltygary
1/21/2010-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
If you had 2 equally good deals what would you choose?
A: A team in the media center of the world that creates controversies with their players and drags them out in front of the whole world to see. A FO that likes to take their shirts off and threaten players. A FO that blames their problems on reporters. A GM and Manager that are out the door after one bad losing streak.
B: Sunny California where the team is always competitive, the manager is a class act and highly respected around the league and a FO that only likes to keep to themselves and spend money where they need to.
DNDJohan aka kistics
1/21/2010-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
LOL… talk about putting things in perspective…
metsfan4decades
1/21/2010-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s our friend Ceeter on MC’s blog trying to infuse some reality in the mindset that no FAs have any desire to come to NY – or more to the point, the Met fans drinking that Koolaid:
‘Yeah, why would anyone want to come to a place that loves their team as much as NY and have a chance to win a championship and pitch next to Santana. No..Beltran going to the best doctor in the world to have a needed surgery must mean it’s a horrible place to play.’
Note the sarcasm.
I read comments on that blog fairly often – as well as Amazin Ave. Hands down, most of the fans on AA are the most collectively jaded bunch of Met fans I’ve read yet. They’re usually so down on everything the Mets do I sometimes wonder just why they’re even Met fans.