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Jan 23

Grave Notions: Why Gary Matthews Jr. Is Here

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I spent all day yesterday responding to things like this, so before I agree with you TKFJ and move on to the next botched move, I’m going to one last time lay it out the way I see it.  I am not asking you or anyone else to agree with my perspective, I do it simply to dispute the notion that “consensus is the move made no sense” because I consider that to be a false statement.

Yesterday Mr. North Jersey, who has made his disdain for Omar in general and this move in specific well known, published a series of links to Met-specific blogs and their reactions to the trade.  There was hardly a consensus to be found in those.  So even someone with strong negative feelings about the trade was able to find, accept the existence of and publish links to people with opinions that did not jive with his own.

There is a cottage industry in the blogosphere built around The Contest. What The Contest involves is a essentially a running commentary by those who know better about New York Mets General Manager Omar Minaya and Kansas City Royals GM Dayton Moore, and how long either can abstain from making a bad move, and how long after one does the other will be unable to resist topping him.  You can read more about The Contest here.  It is certainly a ripoff of the plot of an episode of Seinfeld, ironically a Met fan, and a man who has a greater sense of humor in one drop of his perspiration than a roomful of sabermetricians.  It is my opinion that in an effort to extrude fun from this contest, the reaction to an otherwise run-of-the-mill, unspectacular, uninteresting player move has gone berserk.  But I digress.

I personally feel that prior to this trade the Mets had depth issues with the center field position.  You can believe or not that the Mets had bullpen depth.  I believe they did but I respect your right to disagree.  I think that trying to assemble a Major League bullpen of 7 guys from a pool of Frankie Rodriguez, Sean Green, Pedro Feliciano, Ryota Igarashi, Nelson Figueroa, Pat Misch, Eddie Kunz, Tobi Stoner, Jack Egbert, Bobby Parnell, Kelvim Escobar, Clint Everts, Arturo Lopez, Jay Marshall, R. A. Dickey and Fernando Nieve is a task that can be accomplished with or without throwing Brian Stokes into the mix.  If anyone feels that Stokes separated himself from this group in any real, positive way, well let’s just say I respectfully disagree.  In that context I consider Stokes expendable.

Now back to the issue of center field depth.  One may in my view rightly complain that the Mets non-tendered Cory Sullivan and Jeremy Reed.  They are both useful reserve outfielders capable of playing center field.  I do not dispute that.  But the fact remains that when they were non-tendered, Carlos Beltran was the healthy starting center fielder for the New York Mets, Angel Pagan was his back up, and Fernando Martinez was the third option.  Currently there is no fourth option that I am aware of unless one is particularly enamored with Jesus Feliciano.

You may disagree with this notion as well but I believe the Mets are best served by having Martinez play every day in AAA, proving that he can stay healthy and perform against that level of competition.  It would be hard for anyone to deny that he was over-matched in 2009 against Major League competition.  So it would seem best for all parties if Martinez is not once again summoned to the Majors prematurely due to injuries.

After the likes of Reed and Sullivan were given their walking papers, lo and behold, a Met player had a health setback.  Right around the same time Beltran’s knee surgery and the bizarre circumstances surrounding it were unfolding, those same two players were signing contracts with other organizations.   Thus a sudden unforeseen opening for depth on the roster and the last two guys who filled it were otherwise employed.

So what is Omar Minaya, the laughingstock GM of the laughingstock New York Mets supposed to do?  Perhaps sign an available free agent, you say.  Why of course, why didn’t Omar The Fool think of that?  Perhaps he did.  Perhaps he also noticed that he’s had a little difficulty attracting free agents recently.  Bengie Molina took less money and no option for a second year and stayed away.  Joel Pineiro took slightly more money and didn’t bother to consider that the Mets might have simply made an opening offer and been willing to increase it.  Since the Beltran fiasco, merely the latest fiasco in a string of fiascos, the Mets have an image problem.  Proponents of The Contest should be well aware of that.  Try attracting a person capable of providing marginal performance in center field on what appears to be a rather temporary basis (assuming Beltran’s healthy return, whoever fills the role will be immediately demoted to 5th OF at best).

So having a job opening for a 4th OF job that, should things go well for a change, will quickly turn into that of 5th OF, I can imagine Omar glanced at the list of available free agents.  Surely at least an office intern did this for him.  Even his greatest detractors must admit that he is probably at least peripherally aware that Reed Johnson is without employment.  Maybe Reed would agree to come to the Mets, team turmoil, for the fair market value of a 5th OF?  Maybe Randy Winn might?  Rocco Baldelli?  Ryan Freel?  If other recent free agents recently spurned fair market value offers from the Mets for jobs that actually involved playing time, why would any of these fellows come here to sit on their asses for 5th OF prices?  They might just risk the mortal injury that often seems to come with playing for the Mets, but surely they’d require a premium for doing so.  That would be wasteful spending, something we often criticize Minaya for.  Suddenly we are begging him to do it for a 5th OF?  Are the same people who wailed and moaned about $2 million for Alex Cora seriously now requesting that Omar shell out that kind of money again for another reserve player?

Maybe Alfredo Amezaga or Endy Chavez would dare to take on such a task.  Personally I think Chavez would.  He might actually be the only professional baseball player on earth who has some positive feelings about playing in a reserve OF role with the Mets.  Alas, he is injured and will not be ready when needed.  Neither is Amezaga expected to be ready, so he’s out.

So Minaya, faced with the need for a 5th OF capable of minimal performance in CF for what is hopefully a temporary period between a potential injury to Pagan and the return of Beltran made a couple of wise (gasp!) decisions.  He decided to make efforts to keep Martinez in the minor leagues where he belongs, and he decided not to pay more than should otherwise be necessary for the services of a 5th OF.  He pulled out his bullpen depth chart and determined that he could spare one of sixteen guys, one who didn’t particularly distinguish himself from the others, certainly not enough to merit the number of exclamations of horror that have permeated the blogosphere in the last 24 hours.

Another fear widely noted has been that which suggests that Matthews Jr. is a clubhouse cancer and that surely he will make demands to start and in doing so disrupt the fragile child-like psyche of the Met roster.  I cannot dispute that Matthews Jr. may cause some turmoil.  He may very well make some demands.  He has stated for the record that he wanted out of Los Angeles because he wanted the opportunity to start.  Little Sarge needs to wake up and smell the coffee.  He’s in no position to make any demands.  And thankfully the Angels wanted to rid themselves of him so much they sent along $21.5 million dollars, meaning the Mets only owe him the fair market salary of a 5th OF.  If he proves to be a disruptive influence with demands to start, much like so many feared that another Gary, Gary Sheffield, would do last year, he is easily cut with little financial loss.  This is win-win for the Mets.  They take a chance that a veteran major leaguer, if lots of other things go wrong, can play a little bit for them, and acquire him by finding one of sixteen guys in a pool of bullpen candidates to send away for him.  Classic change of scenery deal we’ve all witnessed countless times before, with an easy out should it not work.

Instead of being praised for (finally) making a wise decision, Omar Minaya is drawn and quartered by those who know better. All for the sake of a few laughs at another chapter in The Contest.

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73 comments

  1. prismo

    Sorry Grave, you’re completely wrong. A baffling trade, to say the least. Again, one that probably won’t cripple the Mets in any way, but also one that won’t help. Just because people criticize a move Minaya makes, doesn’t automatically mean they’re trying to quarter him and they’re wrong.

    1. prismo

      And I’m not blindly hating on Minaya. I’m a big fan of the Bay signing. But getting Bay or Holliday after Lackey was gone was kind of a no-brainer.

    2. GravediggerHebner

      As you may have noted, I respectfully disagree.

      1. prismo

        Well I respectfully disagree back!

        1. GravediggerHebner

          America, what a country!

          That’s cool man. As I’m sure I’ve said before, if all 16 authors and the growing group of commenters here agreed on everything, how desolate and boring would the site be?

          I know you don’t blindly hate Omar and I respect that you view this deal through a different prism than I do.

          I just wanted one last time to state my case, I have no interest in continuing to debate about a deal that I see as a sort of “25th man for 25th man” largely inconsequential type of trade.

          My views are now clearly on record for anyone who cares to see and pick apart if they wish.

    3. mrose

      Prismo,
      two things… first.. would it be a “baffling trade, to say the least” if we had traded some meddling AA/AAA career minor leaguer for another? In a sense, its what we did, we traded a guy who likely wasn’t going to make a difference (or shouldn’t to be honest) for another guy who shouldn’t make a difference (if all works out well with Beltran). Both have the ability to make a difference, both have the ability to explode in a bad way.
      Second, kinda how kingman misunderstood Grave for TELLING people how to react, didn’t you just do the same thing (and others)? I’ve seen TRS and Grave be called out for “tellling people how to react” in the past two days, but people on the other side of the argument have done the same.
      The comment section is for opinions and everyone will have their own. I am getting really annoyed with both sides of this argument saying “you are wrong!”. No one knows who is right or wrong, its simply that you disagree, and to be honest, when you state your opinion in that way, thats what gets people more annoyed in a debate and not try to respond intelligently.
      So, you think Grave was wrong, I agree with him, the bottom line, no one knows who is right in this and as I said yesterday, we all lose! In regards to Omar’s moves, there are some obviously terrible moves we all agree on, and some good ones we will agree on. This one is 100% not cut and dry in one way, lets try to remember that.
      God I hope he makes a real move this week so we can converse about a part of the team with immediate impact :)

  2. Kingman 26

    Recently I wrote an opinion piece taking to task all of Omar’s know-it-all critics and you compared me to a censoring Soviet dictator.

    The other day I commented on how silly it was to spend time whining about USA Today and XM Radio anti-Met drivel and you again reprimanded me and suggested that this is exactly what the site is for.

    Now, however, everyone should NOT be expressing their negative opinions regarding an actual move which will affect the team.

    So—it is OK to criticize Omar when Grave deems it so and we should have whinefests when the national media trash the Mets but we cannot complain about player moves we dislike.

    Got it.

    1. GravediggerHebner

      Not at all sir, you misunderstand. No where above did I request that anyone shut up, I drew a line prior to that rather deliberately. I simply disagreed and expressed that, while numerous times expressing my respect for the right of others to do so.

      I am sincerely sorry that this distinction was missed.

      1. Kingman 26

        Just seemed like the tone of this piece was mighty similar to the one of mine which got me compared to the loveable Soviet Nikita K.

        And I guess we differ in that I think blowing off steam about a player move is far more constructive than caring about what XM or USA Today thinks.

        But it is indeed a great country and a great site and I continue to be honored to be your fellow author.

        And your occasional reprimands about my commenting tone are on point and appreciated.

        1. GravediggerHebner

          Your reference to my tone here I agree with. I would say that is was inspired by your previous work here and hope that you believe that, and not take it simply as an olive branch in this moment, because I do mean it.

          I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that in one of your pieces you requested that others “shut up” if not with that exact phrase, that it was otherwise strongly implied, or at least I inferred it as you may have from my work here.

          My “soviet” missive came as a result of my belief that you were stating fairly plainly that others “be quiet.” If that was not the case, I am sorry and you owe me a thorough reprimand.

          If the mistake is mine, if I incorrectly inferred it from your previous work and you did not mean that or say it that way, then I owe you another sincere apology.

        2. GravediggerHebner

          This is what I’m referring to, from your 12/13 post:

          “This space respectfully submits that it may be time for all of us to stop pretending that we have better solutions than Omar does.”

          I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that I stopped short of making a statement like that here today. If I inferred incorrectly that yours was a call for people to shut up, then I am terribly sorry for having responded so specifically and verbosely that day, and I hope you will forgive me.

          1. Kingman 26

            If my tone inspired you I take that as a huge compliment.

            No apologies are necessary.

            I don’t think I waas telling folks to shut up but this was before Bay signed and we were mired in anti-Omarism and I guess I was expressing frustration in a less than eloquent way.

            Am on my Blackberry at Indianapolis airport and gotta go but appreiciate your comments as always and once again I feel guilty for giving grief to such a nice and sincere guy! Have a good one buddy.

            :-)

  3. saltygary

    I’m with you grave. The biggest complaint last year is the team has no depth. A move had to be made at the worst possible time in the free agent market and Omar did it. This is a trade for a reserve OF thts it. I think there are so many other frustrations tht folks have with this team that they are being focused on this move and not what the real issue are.

    1. Kingman 26

      I think Stokes has more value and Matthews wants to play every day and will not here.

      I rarely criticize Omar and am not one of the constant complainers; some of us actually just do not like THIS MOVE.

      For me it has less than nothing to do with anything else.

      Would rather have Stokes and a different OF.

  4. metsfan4decades

    For the record, my problem with this move is what you discussed at the end of your piece.

    I don’t believe he’s been a clubhouse cancer. In fact, Angel fans have praised him for not voicing his opinion on wanting to start and instead kept his mouth shut and attempted to contribute, when asked. It wasn’t until the end of the season that he made his wishes on starting known. So two points for him there.

    I have to believe that he realizes he’s not going to be the long term starting CF for the Mets. He can’t be that delusional. And maybe Omar had a conversation with him outlining his expected contribution and he’s on board with that. I won’t pretend to know.

    He does added needed depth and whether he’ll actually be any more than a warm body out there remains to be seen. As long as he’s on board with being backup, and does everything in his power to help them win games, then I don’t have a problem with this move.

    He is taking up a roster spot. So if he flat out stinks and/or causes a problem it should be a no brainer just to cut him. He’s not costing that much.

    1. mrose

      I basically see this as whats happening..
      Pagan starts the year, GMJ fills in when needed… once Beltran comes back.. if GMJ has added ANY value, they look to trade him for a bat or two and if he doesn’t… drop him…

      The clubhouse cancer thing, I never believe until it happens either. If hes such a cancer, he certainly didn’t effect the Angels winning the west year after year. People said the cancer thing w/ Sheff and you didn’t hear much about him being a bad influence.

  5. CaseStreet

    Don’t disagree. But don’t think we should be calling out our commenters in our posts.
    Seems like were all getting a little testy. Can’t wait for the season to start so we can turn our anger elsewhere.

    1. GravediggerHebner

      Dammit I am bad at this.

      I didn’t believe I was calling out a commenter for this reason. When I said:

      “before I agree with you TKFJ and move on to the next botched move”

      I hoped the implication there was that I was agreeing with the second portion of his statement, the ‘lets move on’ portion.

      TKFJ if you’re out there that’s what I was doing, disagreeing with your assertion that there was consensus about the trade, but agreeing that it was time to move on (except that I wanted one last chance to state my opinion).

      TKFJ, you and anyone else are always free to state your opinions here. My only hope is that we can continue to do so in a civil way even though the anonymity of the internet allows us to easily be less than civil.

      As far as the trade goes, anyone with an opinion whether it agrees or disagrees with mine feel free to fire away that’s what posts and comments are for. I was simply stating that regarding the deal itself I was no longer interested in debating it and this post was “my last stand” so to speak.

      1. CaseStreet

        Ah, I read it as being sarcastic because you used tk’s word “botched” while in the post you disagree that it was a botched move. My bad.

        1. GravediggerHebner

          No, it was vague, the “bad” lies with me. Have we considered hiring an editor? I know I could use one.

          So how ’bout those Jets?

  6. GravediggerHebner

    I suppose it’s like a hypothetical situation in which 1962 Met pitcher Jay Hook is asked by an intrepid reporter about a game that Choo Choo Coleman caught, and in his response says something like “Choo Choo frames the plate well.”

    Said intrepid reporter then runs to his typewriter to begin a story about how Jay Hook doesn’t like the way Chris Cannizzaro frames the plate.

    Well at least I can take some satisfaction in coming up with the catchy title “Grave Notions” even though I’ll never be using it again. ;-)

    1. gategem

      Ralph Kiner used to say of Jay Hook (something to the effect) that because of Hook’s education (he has a master’s degree in thermodynamics), Hook could describe why a curveball breaks but couldn’t throw one. Hook could throw hard but if you attached a string from his release point to the catcher’s glove his fastball would follow the path of the string.

  7. gonzowill

    What’s sad about this is that this discussion doesn’t even exist if Beltran gets his surgery done in oct.

  8. Hazmet

    I don’t like the move but I understand the move. Certainly, this isn’t a move that’s going to ultimately determine the success or failure of the upcoming season. I’d rather have Stokes because I like have arms over used up outfielders. Even if the arm is a long-middle relief guy. If the name Smoltz or Nieve is slid into this roll I’m more than OK with that. My in house chuckle for the day was my wife’s reaction when she read it, dialogue went something like this:

    Mrs: Gary Matthews???? What???
    Me: Matthews Jr.
    Mrs: He’s 35, I don’t care if he’s Gary Matthews the Fifth.
    Me: Speechless. Tough crowd.

  9. Mr North Jersey

    As usual Grave has a nice way of putting things in a perspective that after you read it and allow yourself to digest his thoughts you come away with a much better understanding of things.

    Hat’s off once again on a great post Grave.

    If you follow Grave’s breakdown on what may have lead to Minaya making the move he did then it is hard to really argue against it.

    Now in retrospect having thought about it I can admit that I over reacted to the actual trade because at worst Stokes while admittedly having more value than a GMJ does. As long as Manuel was here as mgr I think it would of been just another wasted year for Stokes and GMJ if he is a bust at 1 million a year I would hope the Mets would just cut him at the 1st sign of him becoming a problem.

    I will tell you that I sat there after all the hullabaloo that went on yesterday to reflect why was I so bothered by this move especially when this move was as Ted quarters put it “a deal of a seventh reliever for a fifth outfielder” and personally I kept coming back to this point.

    This feeling that we are settling for bottom of the barrel players rather than taking the lead and being aggressive to bring in the best available players.

    I can’t get past this point it is at the core of my dissatisfaction with Minaya.

    These are the New York Mets they are my New York Mets. That means a lot to me and Minaya played a part in making that mean a lot because he told me when he signed Beltran way back when that this is the New New York Mets. No longer will we be a bumbling organization that sits in the Yankees shadow. No! we will become the team that players want to play for. Where winning every year will be expected.

    That is what in so many words Minaya said to me and I believed him. I believed him hook line and sinker. That is until last season when he ripped my faith in him with this mentality of waiting for the cavalry and allowing this disease of a mentality that it was somehow ok that we were losing because we didn’t have all our Horses.

    In my life I will never forget 2009 it was single handedly the worst season I ever endured. Even with that I was ok with Minaya coming back because I wanted him to redeem himself beginning with this off season and well let’s just say he is not doing a great job so far, at least in my eyes. I mean we are starting to become a team where players don’t want to come we are going in the opposite direction.

    Again I want to say thanks to Grave for the Great Post it allowed me to get a better perspective on everything.

    Now when are we signing Sheets and Garland?

    1. metsfan4decades

      I agree wholeheartedly about the quality of Grave’s posts and your comment:

      ‘This feeling that we are settling for bottom of the barrel players rather than taking the lead and being aggressive to bring in the best available players.’

      Time will tell how this all plays out.

    2. trs86

      I don’t understand one part. What team does not have “bottom of the barrel guys” for 5th OF? And why do we care that he traded a bottom of the barrel guy for a bottom of the barrel guy? So we sign another bottom of the barrel guy and cut a bottom of t he barrel guy instead?

      Again, you mentioned maybe Reed Johnson or somebody anybody. My point is that it does not just work that way. Reed has had a couple of successful seasons and most likely has no desire to come to NY and be the 5th OF. I guess where we differ is that I think that Omar most likely did not just say ah hell lets get GMJR and be done with it. I am sure the METS, Omar and others, looked at other options and did what they thought was best. I know your point is that we should be able to spend but from what I saw there was maybe 2 better FA left. As for the trade market, maybe we could have done better but at what cost? I am sure you would be here complaining if Omar had traded away a much better prospect for a slightly better 5th OF.
      My final question is how good should a 5th OF be?

      1. Mr North Jersey

        -Sigh

        1. trs86

          Not familiar with him.

          Seriously NJ. It’s not just about you here buddy. I am asking a serious question. How good do you want Angel Pagan’s backup to be?

          1. trs86

            GMJR’s OPS+ was higher than 6 players that were on the 25 man roster for the Phillies at some point during last season. It was higher than one of their starters and only 3 points less than Jimmy Rollins.
            His OPS+ was higher than 15 players that were on the 25 man roster for the Mets at some point last season including 1 starter.

            He’s a 5th OF.

          2. Mr North Jersey

            Really TRS, with all due respect but we just will not agree I have said this so many times that I should just preface every statement I make with,

            “The following statement will most likely not be agreed to by TRS86. In no way should you or anyone else draw any inferences from this other than we just don’t agree a lot. Thank you.”

            and leave it at that.

            If I though answering you would lead to a semblance of agreement I might consider replying to your question but history has proven time and time again that the odds of that happening are not good.

            So let’s just spare each other the lengthy debate and just say LETS GO METS in 2010 and leave it at that.
            OK buddy?

          3. trs86

            You know that’s not good enough for me. Your response of “sigh” implies that you have an answer. I want to know what that answer is if I choose to disagree so be it. You don’t want it to be lengthy, I can abide by that. What I can’t take is just the cop-out of “We won’t agree”. Who cares if we agree or not?

            I ask again, how good does a 5th OF need to be?
            Jeremy Reed was last year’s 5th OF and posted an OPS+ of 62, 21 points lower than GMJR.

            If you can’t answer questions on your opinion then expect to be called out on it each time.

          4. Mr North Jersey

            I understand.

          5. trs86

            It’s not like I am trying to convince you to suddenly change your mind anyway NJ. You have already made up your mind about Omar. That does not bother me really.

            My question that you can’t answer is a serious one that I have for all the detractors of this move.

            How good does a 5th OF need to be? How good does Angel Pagan’s backup need to be?

            If you want to debate the idea that they need someone better than Angel Pagan starting, isn’t that an entirely different debate?

          6. Mr North Jersey

            Trs, I sighed because your lengthy reply to me showed that you failed to really try and read what I said.

            If you had you would of seen where regarding the GMJ trade I said,

            “in retrospect having thought about it I can admit that I over reacted to the actual trade”

            and

            “If you follow Grave’s breakdown on what may have lead to Minaya making the move he did then it is hard to really argue against it.”

            but of course you only focused on my thoughts as to why I was so bothered by this move. Something that cannot be debated any more than you can debate why one is a fan of a team.

          7. trs86

            This feeling that we are settling for bottom of the barrel players rather than taking the lead and being aggressive to bring in the best available players.

            I can’t get past this point it is at the core of my dissatisfaction with Minaya.

            This is the part I don’t get. I don’t get how this has anything to do with GMJR and our 5th OF debate. To me, and it’s not just you, we are all so upset with Omar that we are upset with every minor move or in some cases we are looking for something to be upset about.

          8. Mr North Jersey

            I understand that you don’t understand that part of my comment I am at a point when it comes to me and you that I accept that as a everyday norm.

            It’s ok

          9. trs86

            LOL, let me at least ask for clarification.

            Does that statement have anything to do with the acquisition of GMJR as our 5th OF?

          10. Mr North Jersey

            “The following statement will most likely not be agreed to by TRS86. In no way should you or anyone else draw any inferences from this other than we just don’t agree a lot. Thank you.”

          11. trs86

            This is implying yes somehow that statement has something to do with our 5th OF.

            If that is true. You are right we will never agree because that makes you look petty and looking for a reason to bash Omar.

          12. Mr North Jersey

            So how about them JETS?

            Good luck Jets fans here is to the Jets pulling of the improbable, a trip to the SuperBowl.

            Can’t wait to cheer them on. I just hope it’s a great game regardless of who wins.

          13. Mr North Jersey

            Of course that is what you would say.
            Why am I not surprised?

          14. Mr North Jersey

            Rather than going back to fix my comment for those that are trying to follow who was my comment intended for it was in reply to TRS’s above comment where he said the following,

            “This is implying yes somehow that statement has something to do with our 5th OF.

            If that is true. You are right we will never agree because that makes you look petty and looking for a reason to bash Omar.”

            My apologies

          15. trs86

            Apology accepted MR NJ.

            Of course here is your answer to the question that I have been asking the entire time.

            TRS86 How good does a 5th OF need to be?

            MR NJ: …………

          16. trs86

            I mean if it does not have anything to do with GMJR then just speak up and say it does not. If it does then speak up and say it does. Make things simple here for the simple minded folks like me.

          17. Mr North Jersey

            Yep, right again TRS. Guilty as charged.

          18. trs86

            I don’t get it NJ, you make this entire thing in to a mockery. Instead of responding in code and responding telling me that you are not going to respond, why not just respond with your actual opinion on the question? Something you have failed to do.

          19. Mr North Jersey

            And on that note I will say goodnight TRS or rather good morning.

            Let’s Go Mets in 2010 and Good Luck Jets.

          20. trs86

            Goodnight NJ. I will be back tomorrow morning to continue to ask the same question that for some reason you refuse to answer.

            May the question haunt you in your sleep until then.

            How good does a 5th OF need to be?

  10. metsfan4decades

    This over on Amazin Ave on a post where they asked the Rev on Halos Heaven his thoughts on us getting GMJ:

    Enjoy Gary Matthews Jr in limited quantities.

    For the Million bucks or so you are paying Gary Matthews Jr., here is what you are getting:

    1. Great clubhouse guy.

    That is about it. Enjoy the chemistry.

    Seriously, Gary Matthews Jr. (or GMJ as we call him) is the incomplete package. His defense is okay, no cannon arm, occasional terrible routes to balls, nothing egregious, nothing profound. He won’t hit for power, he is okay on the basepaths, he might stretch from 1B to 3B on singles, but won’t steal bases. He is smart, but you would rather have young and dumb than old and smart. He will be lucky to see the north side of .240. All the playing time he grumbled for will only make him ache more given his age.

    For a million bucks, you won’t get a better veteran league average outfielder who is the anti-Milton Bradley when it comes to crabbing about the way he is being treated.

    That is all I got. The less you notice the guy the better your team is doing.

    1. trs86

      For a million bucks, you won’t get a better veteran league average outfielder !!!!!!!!!!

      That to me shows the point I have been making since yesterday.

      That entire paragraph about his defense, arm, running, hitting, etc… sounds like a backup OF. What were we looking for? A BU OF with starting experience. You can like or dislike GMJR if you want but I can’t really say it’s a BAD deal. It was Mr. Irrelevant for hopefully Mr. Irrelevant.

      1. stickguy

        i am still not sure why it is so important that the BU guy has starting experience. Certainly not if that is more important than actual talent.

        1. trs86

          I expressed my thoughts below. More to do with the fact that Pagan is no sure thing either. Gotta have someone that can step in if Pagan gets hurt the first week.

          Also, regardless of media, in May if Beltran is ready Matthews JR will have a little, little, trade value at his cost.

  11. stickguy

    getting pretty deep and profound in here today. And Nice bonding momemnt there with grave and kong.

    it was a nice piece though.

    my perspective? I don’t think losing stokes is that big of a deal. He was a waiver claim that added some value, and may not have even made the pen this year, and there are always plenty of guys floating around to give a shot to.

    I also felt (and said before) that they needed to add a spare OF that can play CF while beltran was out. So from that perspective, the trade was logical.

    Where I disagree with some of the other posts (and TRS) was that they needed to have a veteran. I would have been fine with a guy that had been a reserve, or even someone just waiting for his chance after a few years in AAA. Heck, Feliciano just might have been that guy.

    Rather that then someone like mathews that is so widely regarded as pretty darned bad. plus old and genreally falling apart. IOW, not someone that you want on the team if you can possibly help it.

    I look at it this way: GMjr. is like OF Lima time. not something you want to see. And Omar chose him.

    To the question of “who else”? Valid. I also have no idea if reed johnson would have taken a mill or 2. At this point, the FAs left probably are getting pretty antsy.

    But what I really don’t know is who else could have been traded for. And now, no one will!

    I still think they would have been better off with a young, athletic, hungry guy that plays good D instead of GMj.

    but no, not an earthshattering move, or a horrible one. Certainly nothing that deserves this much crap being hurled at Omar. As grave said, it was logical.

    1. trs86

      I can see that point Stick and I would have agreed IF Pagan did not also have a history of injury. I think we needed someone with starting experience. I don’t think we would have wanted to go a few months with Jesus Feliciano as starting CF.

      I don’t care if it was GMJR or not, honestly. If he turns out great there will be no told you so’s from me. I just don’t understand why it was such a TERRIBLE move that it has been over reported as.

  12. trs86

    Ty Wigginton of the Orioles will likely see his number of at-bats decrease after the team’s signing of Miguel Tejada and Garrett Atkins. Roch Kubatko of MASNSports.com says that the 32-year-old could be a trade candidate in Spring Training.

    There’s your 2010 Tatis. I think Wiggy would be a great pickup.

  13. njstuckintx

    I’m still blown away by how the world has imploded due to the Mets picking up GMJ. 5th OF potentially dropped to the side of the curb kind of guy.

    Nothing to see here, move along… move along…

    1. trs86

      I agree. That is why I continue to ask How good does a 5th OF need to be? No one will answer me.

      1. njstuckintx

        How good? My answer would be cheap. Cheap = good. If Cheap is also serviceable… Than Cheap + serviceable = good + 1. Hate to get all algebraic on you. :)

        1. trs86

          So I would say this. Point one is true. GMJ is cheap. Point 2, I have no idea if he will end up being serviceable or not. But was Jeremy Reed serviceable with a 62 OPS+?

          1. njstuckintx

            Hey man, I’m with you. I wish Mets had 5 wonderful OF people. For now, they have Bay, Frenchy, and Pagan, with F-Mart in the wings, Beltran on the mend and GMJ as the back up (and soon to be back up to the back up). I’m not going to freak out about that while the rotation is making the stock holders of Rolaids smile.

            I guess it’s all just something to banter about other than “where will Sheets sign and will at least Garland sign with the Mets?”.

          2. trs86

            Agreed. I get the idea that people are concerned that Omar has not done enough this off-season and if we are done I will agree completely. However, no matter who we got as 5th OF would have made me feel any better or worse about the current off-season.

  14. stickguy

    last thought before bed.

    To answer TRS question, I want the 5th OF to be as good as possible! It is also a reason to keep some legit prospects at AAA. You might not get a “great” vet player for a cheaper price (you get used up guys like GMj), but you certainly can get minimum wage guys that are young and hungry.

    Heck, sometimes you get a young guy up that starts out hot. Think Murphy in 2008. Just try to get one that is actually an OF.

    I also assume that you believe that Martinez should be kept in AAA this year? Since most likely, if pagan goes down and you need another starting CF, they will reach down for him again (meaning that the 5th OF most likley never gets pressed into a starting role)

    1. trs86

      I think that Martinez will be kept in AAA until he proves he can be healthy or is desperately needed. Same reason he was brought up last year.

      I appreciate your response Stickguy. It’s still a little vague for my liking. I am still looking for the model 5th OF to use as a comparison or a baseline of offensive or defensive numbers. As I brought up, Jeremy Reed was our 5th OF last year. He had an OPS+ of 62. Is this OK production for a 5th OF? Is it more OK because he was paid .5 million?

  15. gategem

    Posted by James Kannengieser over at Amazin Avenue:

    “GMJ Dewan summary last few years, with UZR in parentheses next to them:

    2009
    RF: 1 (1)
    CF: -9 (-14)
    LF: -2 (-2)
    Total: -10 (-14.5)

    2008
    RF: -4 (-4)
    CF: 5 (1)
    LF: -7 (-7)
    Total: -6 (-10)

    2007
    CF: -11 (-12)
    Near identical (sucky) for both systems.”

    1. trs86

      What I think is strange is how in 2008 he was suddenly above average in CF.

      At this point in his career he is not a great fielder for sure. Of course more concerning is that Beltran was also negative last year in UZR.

  16. trs86

    If it’s any consolation to my favorite debators, I have changed my mind on one thing. The Mets really need to get Sheets. There really is no reason not to at least put the top offer on the table and make Sheets at least have to think long and hard about turning it down. Obviously I am still not in the camp of give him whatever he wants but I am for some reason more comfortable with the idea of outbidding everyone else.

    There TK that should at least show you that I do change my mind.

    1. CaseStreet

      hell has frozen over

      what about Garland and saving the bullpen?

  17. trs86

    Also, closing post for the night.

    My biggest fear is not that GMJR was brought in as a 5th OF. It’s not will he completely suck as a 5th OF. It’s not did we overpay for him or could we have gotten anyone better. It’s not did we give up too much in Brian Stokes.

    My biggest fear is that we brought him in to make an impact. It does make you wonder how long do the METS expect Beltran to be out>

    1. stickguy

      that is scary.

      I hope that Omar was just blowing smoke about GM, and he really does know that he stinks but they needed an emergengy body that hopefully woldn’t have to play much, but he obviously couldn’t say that.

      But, if Omar really beleived he got a talent that really will be given a chance to take the job FT (and with Jerry, you never know), than that just creeps me out!

  18. stickguy

    morning thoughts: THe answer to the question (how good does a 5th OF need to be)?

    A: As good as Angel Pagan was in 2009. He was pretty much the 5th OF, until of course the injuries to beltran and Delgado made him a starter.

    And, he is cheaper than 1mill.

    SO, that is my answer. FInd another Pagan. NOt GMjr.

    1. trs86

      Actually Pagan was the 4th OF, same as he is this year. Jeremy Reed was the 5th OF unless you want to call him the 6th OF. Either way GMJR is replacing Jeremy Reed.

  19. GravediggerHebner

    Well late yesterday afternoon I deliberately shut off and walked away from my computer, prepping myself to come back today to a really ugly display of anger and frustration. But to my great surprise that’s not really here (although there is a nice sidebar of frustration evident in TRS and Mr. NJ’s conversation). So thank you all for “getting it.”

    It’s not that I think “I’m right, you’re wrong.” It’s that acquiring GMJ for Stokes, or signing Ben Sheets for that matter, are items with unknown future outcomes and different opinions are to be expected and respected. I respect all of your opinions and thank you for sharing.

    The only time I think we (myself included) go wrong is when we react to matters of opinion on uncertain future outcomes by allowing ourselves to feel so strongly about our own opinion as to suggest to others things like “I’m sorry but you’re hopelessly lost on this” or “you’re just completely wrong.” It’s one thing if I say for example “David Wright hit 30 home runs in 2009.” On that I would be hopelessly lost and completely wrong and I would expect correction.

    But how can any of us be “hopelessly lost” or “completely wrong” about these future uncertainties? I submit if any of us were as right as we sometimes think we are (again, myself included) we wouldn’t be typing to each other in a blog about the Mets. We’d have much more important applications of our prowess, perhaps including lots of time spent on Wall Street or in Las Vegas.

    Again, thank you all for your thoughts and opinions, I for one and I believe strongly many others as well appreciate them.

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