I have seen lately a lot of discussion around how much of the problems with the Mets falls on Omar Minaya
and how much falls on the current ownership. How much how little or who is to blame exactly? Tough questions indeed.
There are signs that suggest Minaya is more of a puppet who unlike Pinocchio who had no strings to call his own Minaya’s strings are being pulled by Jeff Wilpon. For example John Ricco holding a conference call to discuss events that only Omar Minaya was privy to that only resulted in making things worse with Ricco at times pleading the 5th when asked certain questions. Some speculate if the lack of moves this off season is more to Minaya having his hands tied by ownership. A notion that let’s face it is almost impossible to prove.
Since Fred Wilpon became the sole owner of the Mets back on August 23, 2002 the Mets are 581 – 586 that is
a .497 win percentage. Here are some highlights.
|
Year
|
Record
|
Place
|
- Highlights -
|
|
2009
|
70 – 92
|
4th
|
Mets sign Francisco Rodriguez |
|
2008
|
89 – 73
|
2nd
|
Mets trade for Johan Santana |
|
2007
|
88 – 74
|
2nd
|
Scott Schoeneweis signs / 2006 draft pick Joe Smith makes team |
|
2006
|
97 – 65
|
1st
|
Mets trade for Carlos Delgado win NL East, win NLDS |
|
2005
|
83 – 79
|
3rd
|
Carlos Beltran, Pedro Martinez signs – Minaya era begins |
|
2004
|
71 – 91
|
4th
|
David Wright makes debut 7/21/2004 |
|
2003
|
66 – 95
|
5th
|
Jose Reyes makes debut 8/10/2003 |
|
2002
|
17 – 17
|
5th
|
Fred Wilpon became sole owner of Mets 8/23/2002 |
-
Starting in 2003 Wilpon’s team improved every year going from 5th/2003, 4th/2004, 3rd/2005, and finally 1st in 2006.
Is that rise due to ownership? Maybe it has more to do with the rise of Jose Reyes and David Wright. Reyes and Wright came on the scene and renewed hope in a franchise that the future was bright. Even though Omar Minaya would not become GM till 2005 he may have helped plant the seeds that was Wright & Reyes.
Omar Minaya was assistant GM and in charge of International Scouting under then GM Steve Phillips when Jose Reyes signed with the Mets in 1999. Omar Minaya was also Senior assistant GM and in charge of International Scouting under then GM Steve Phillips when David Wright was drafted back in 2001. How much of an influence if any at all Minaya had in the signing of Wright & Reyes I don’t know I tried to find more info and was unsuccessful.
When Omar Minaya became GM in 2005 he signed Carlos Beltran and Pedro Martinez. The “New” New York Mets era began. Minaya’s Mets finished 3rd in 2005 and in 2006 with Minaya having traded for slugger 1st baseman Carlos Delgado the Mets finished in 1st place for the 1st time in the division since 1988.
Since 2006 the Mets have had 2 (or 1 depending on your view) epic collapses in 2007, 2008. A poorly handled west coast managerial firing. A total meltdown accusing a member of the media with publishing stories painting longtime friend Tony Bernazard in a negative light to further his career with the Mets and probably the most injuries ever in a single season to affect a team’s star players in 2009 and if that wasn’t enough it was compounded by reports of multiple medical misdiagnosis of star players or the perception at least that the Front Office just was not on the same page with their medical staff. Add to the mix what was Citi Fields inaugural season, complaints from fans that there was not enough done celebrating Mets history and too much done to celebrate the late Great Jackie Robinson.
Who is to blame for 2009? Take your pick
A. Ownership
B. Minaya
C. Manuel
D. World Baseball Classic
E. Medical Staff
F. None of the above
G. All of the above
H. other
I am sure that I only scratched the surface but the thing is when you look at all this I find it hard to say it’s just one person’s fault. Is ownership not allowing Minaya to sign players? Does Minaya simply see little value out there in the free agent market and is holding back on trades to give the farm system a chance to grow? These are all plausible scenarios.
Personally I lost faith in Minaya in 2009 not because I blame him for the injuries but because I felt his wait for the cavalry approach in waiting for the players to get back rather than going out and trying to find Wright help especially when Beltran went down was the wrong approach plus add allowing your manager to publicly express this idea that there wasn’t much you can do without your horses. I’ve had many say they don’t agree with my views and while I respect their opinion I still stand by mine. Maybe Minaya is but a puppet and the blame should lie with ownership. I admit lately I am beginning to wonder if that is just the case. If it is ownership what then? It’s been reported the Wilpons do not intend on selling the team anytime soon so what can we do to show our dissatisfaction? I leave that for you to decide. Time will tell I guess who is to blame but for now I’ll continue to stand by my opinions. What is good about that is it’s just an opinion.
Now Opening Day fast approaches and there is a feeling that the winds of change are blowing and both Minaya and Manuel’s future depends on how well the team performs in 2010.
Here’s to hoping 2010 the Mets fortunes turn in their favor.
181 comments
trs86
1/28/2010-7:19am at 7:19 am (UTC -4)
Uhmmmm….. How about those Jets?
stickguy
1/28/2010-7:49am at 7:49 am (UTC -4)
Who really knows? The big problem is, everything we “know” is filtered through the perceptions of the media reporting it, and I really don’t trust that as a source of unbiased truth!
Still, my speculation (trying to connect all the various dots) is that the FO model is at best innefficient, and at worst disfunctional. But, it works OK as long as the money keeps flowing, and their is a strong GM (which correlates to Jeffy being minimalized.
so, the current problems? I thin it is a combination of Omar having some problems (especially if you can blame him for the organizational blunders like overriding the medical recommendations, and stuff like Bernazard), leading to Jeffy (and maybe others) taking a more active role (fingers in the pie, and insisting on havign to approve all moves). That, IMO, is the recipe for failure.
The Wilpons don’t need to sell. But, given that they seem to be overly sensitive to public perception and criticism (and sure as heck will react to a decline in ticket sales and revenue), another poor year will lead to changes.
the 1st change wil lbe Omar going. Not sure why he is still around, but I think it is more from loyalty than being too cheap to fire him (sunk cost on the salary, and I really think they feel he deserved a last shot to fix things). Hoepfully, Fred wil step up and realize that Jeffy has gotten too involved with the BB side of things, and make him step back into more of a business side role. Then, get a strong BB guy to come in and revamp the organization top to bottom.
If they do this, and keep the checkbook open, no reason they should sell. And be careful what you wish for, since if a corporate entity buys it, the bottom line wil lrule, and forget about blowing the budget to just win, baby!
absolutley though if the year starts out bad (or falls apart again), Jerry and Omar are toast. Jerry should be gone already, or the first time he starts Tatis 3 days in a row at least
trs86
1/28/2010-8:21am at 8:21 am (UTC -4)
Matt Cerrone is starting to make me angry with his pushing the same garbage as all the other media outlets. Playing what people want to hear.
Today, “Smoltz is allergic to the Mets”
Newsflash: When a player does not sign with the Mets it’s not always because they don’t like the Mets. He goes on to say the Mets have had a minor league offer on the table for Smoltz the entire time. I understand the Mets position here but dang don’t you understand why Smoltz might not want to take a bullpen job for the NY Mets on a minor league contract. That he might want to hold out for a team desperate for a SP during ST? Or join a contender in June that needs a SP, Mets or otherwise? Seriously. This junk has got to stop.
So Pineiro chooses the Angels over the Mets because he feels more comfortable out west and the Mets only offered a contract similar to the Angels. Why would he go to NY for that? We can debate if they should have made higher offers but to suddenly say the Mets have the plague is just bad journalism and I am about damn tired of it.
trs86
1/28/2010-8:23am at 8:23 am (UTC -4)
And what do post like that produce? This:
alex68 January 28, 2010 at 8:16 am
Jesus h christ… even the guys who can’t pitch anymore don’t wanna come here.. nice job omar and co, you’ve built a franchise worth seeing or playing for.. oh jose reyes, we need you to be superman and carry this team!!!!
10 comments that just trust Cerrone to be all knowing and one rational guy who says the following:
Sylow59 January 28, 2010 at 8:21 am
He has made $135M over his career.
He has played almost exclusively in sane media markets.
He has played his entire career for sane FO teams.
The Mets postseason chances are a crap shoot at best.
Why would he sign a minor league contract for the opportunity to be a middle inning reliever?
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
LOL! Alex is not here so you are bringing him here!!
Oh man, thanks for that!
I was reading comments over there the other day and it was amazing deja vu–Alex was trashing the Mets he hates, Ollie, Slappy, and Wright with men on base, and a bunch of others were telling him what a fool he is and he dominated the thread!
prismo
1/28/2010-8:28am at 8:28 am (UTC -4)
Agreed sir. I actually commented on our friend Joe D’s post over at MetsMerized on just this topic:
“It’s a real possibility that the Mets won’t guarantee Smoltz a spot in the rotation. They probably want him to start in the bullpen, and only enter the rotation as a secondary option. I know he wants to start, so that may not be good enough for him. It might not have anything to do with the Mets being the Mets.”
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
PSSST–STOP READING NONSENSE and it won’t make you angry.
prismo
1/28/2010-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
As Mets bloggers it’s our job, NAY, our DUTY to read all the Mets articles we come across. The good and the bad alike!
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
Eh, maybe.
But I have to disagree.
Matt Cerrone’s opinions and writing are generally a joke. Reading Klapisch or Rosenthal’s complete anti-Met nonsense is utterly unnecessary. I would rather smash my face against a wall.
Reading the drivel just gives the sites more hits and gives the Rosenthals and Klapisches of the world what they are after–attention without having to work and do research.
The Mets have been nothing but a positive in my life since 1973, even during the down years. I absolutely refuse to be bathed in nonsensical, mediocre, anti-factual negativity, other than coming across it on TRDMB, which has so very much more good to it than the rest of those silly sites.
stickguy
1/28/2010-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
now that, my friend, is Positiviality.
Our show is going to be a hit.
trs86
1/28/2010-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
Blue Moon…..
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
LOL!
trs86
1/28/2010-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
I think Kingman it’s our job to read all things Mets and then report on it. I love that here I can criticize anybody in the Mets world including even my authors and they in turn can jump on me. That is the environment we have created and I am lovin every minute of it.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I do most definitely largely agree with most of that sentiment.
And I guess I DO see the negativity by being here every day!
trs86
1/28/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
As authors here we will. I catch myself getting down on the team at times too because everything is so negative. But as a history teacher I have learned to take everything you see, hear and read and then look for the gray area. There in middle is the truth.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
“But as a history teacher I have learned to take everything you see, hear and read and then look for the gray area. There in middle is the truth.”
Best sentences ever written on TRDMB.
Love that attitude.
I was a history major in college and if I was not doing what I am doing I would probably be teaching history.
My respect for you, already always high, just increased even further.
stickguy
1/28/2010-8:45am at 8:45 am (UTC -4)
same nonsense with the spin from the Molina side about how the Mets were too disfunctional to get a deal done (something like that, implying that they were in disarray).
Well, from all reports, the Mets but by far the biggest offer on the table before Xmas (or around there), and it was the Molina side that stalled around forever, letting it dangle.
I guess what they meant was they were perturbed that the Mets set a value, offered it, and wouldn’t bid against themselves by offering 3 years!
So instead of the spin about how the Mets FO botched it, how about a story about how the Met FO acted professionally and did the right thing? You know they would have fawned all over Theo or Cashman for doing the same ting.
Hey, speaking of the Stankees, where are the articles about how they botched the Damon negotiations, since he isn’t signing with them? Must be because they are bumbling clueless idiots, right?
trs86
1/28/2010-8:50am at 8:50 am (UTC -4)
Exactly, Molina was crying after the deal because the Mets would not offer 2 years and he had to eat crow and go back to SF. If anything Omar should be praised for not giving contracts out to Molina and Pineiro or even Lackey that were more than they set the value at.
prismo
1/28/2010-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
LOL MC recanted his statement after Smoltz’ agent released a statement about the situation.
This is why you don’t jump to conclusions. Report the facts, and base your opinion on the facts. And for god’s sake, use some judgment and common sense.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, but in Cerrone’s case, he should learn how to spell and write before tackling the more advanced tasks you mention.
trs86
1/28/2010-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
Exactly. I think it’s just pandering. It’s like here. I came out in favor of the GMJR trade. It was not popular and would have been much easier for me to just go with the flow. However, I did not think that was warranted. Almost every other site towed the anti-Mets line with garbage saying that they did not understand the purpose of the trade. Of course you may not have liked the trade but the rational behind it was obvious.
If Omar came out and announced Nieve the 5th starter tomorrow you may not like the idea but the rational is there.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
Mr North–In your choices for what was responsible for 2009, did you deliberately leave out the obvious number one and only correct answer, injuries, as you were trying to see what people would choose if the obvious reason was not there??
I am sorry, but I say again, this team was in or very near first place every single day for 3 and 1/2 seasons, from opening day 2006 through July 2009 until injuries overcame them.
All of this negativity has reached far, far beyond being surreal at this point; it is just plain ridiculous.
Let’s wait until the team is in 4th place in May and then be nagative.
And yes, I do finally have another opinion piece ready to go. See if you can guess its theme.
prismo
1/28/2010-9:10am at 9:10 am (UTC -4)
Potatoes.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:13am at 9:13 am (UTC -4)
Actually I do love potatoes in just about any form except raw…good idea…I am scrapping the piece I have and I am going to go with my favorite Met-related potato recipes.
trs86
1/28/2010-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
Actually getting out in the dirt with your own potatoes and picking out a good raw one is quite the pleasure.
prismo
1/28/2010-9:10am at 9:10 am (UTC -4)
No, seriously. My guess is that it’s about staying positive!
stickguy
1/28/2010-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
AKA as positiviality, my new word for the week.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
Positiviality is positively Omarlicious.
Mr North Jersey
1/28/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
LoL, I hear you Kingman the funny thing is I actually was trying to be positive.
2009 your right on the field the team failed due to injuries. I should of been more clear on that.
I was thinking more than just the injuries more like as a franchise and it’s philosophy.
Sorry I’ve never been the best in trying to get my thoughts on paper.
I will tell you I’ve heard “this team was in or very near first place every single day for 3 and 1/2 seasons” and as factual as it is all I see is an attempt to find the silver lining. If one wanted to look at another way is you could say look at how bad we are that we have nothing to show it.
I think we are about winning be it wildcards, divisions, NLDS, NLCS, W.S. Titles not being the longest in 1st during the regular season.
This idea that one can’t be frustrated with the past or current situation I find funny at best. No where in my past comments do you find me saying 2010 is already a lost season. I am not condemning 2010 before it starts. Yes I say what is already obvious if the pitchers don’t pitch were doomed or the hitters don’t hit but that is obvious for any team. I am not like some that says this team sucks we won’t finish higher than 4th. 2011 can’t come soon enough. That for me are sad people.
All this is looking at where we are up to today whose responsible and if the people that are there now deserve to be there tomorrow?
You want to write a opinion piece praising positivity? I’m sure it will be a great piece just like most of your pieces (that just didn’t sound right, pieces lol).
I been doing a lot of hoping lately and I think hoping is a form of being positive for example,
I hope Murphy continues to grow at 1st and Tatis never gets to play 1st.
I hope Reyes comes back healthy and has a Reyes like year.
I hope Wright’s power comes back.
I hope Beltran is back for good sooner than expected.
I hope Frenchy plays the way he did when we got him last year.
I hope Bay shows Boston what they could of had and rubs their faces in it.
I hope Castillo is… well I hope we get a better 2nd baseman.
I hope Santos can be better than what Schneider gave u in 2009.
I hope Santana is healthy.
I hope Pelfrey has a career year.
I hope Ollie finally masters control.
I hope Maine is healthy and has a rebound year.
I hope Escobar is the steal of the off season.
I hope KRod has 50 saves
I hope our Baby Mets are the real deal.
I hope Minaya does a trade-deadline blockbuster trade that makes us way better.
I hope the Mets win a W.S. Title in 2010
I hope all this comes true and still at the same time be mad about the past.
stickguy
1/28/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
wow.
my take on the 1st place concept? It isn’t (as you note) worth anything on it’s own (that is, they didn’t win anything by doing it).
it is really just a response to the nabobs that insist the team, even if back on the field helathy, is barely qualified to play in the league, never mind finish 4th (I may be exaggerating slightly, but not by much in some cases!).
Mr North Jersey
1/28/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
I agree I always said that going into the off season we were 2 maybe 3 players tops from seriously contending to win it all in 2010. Bay definitely gets us closer but this whole inability to still address the need for a front end SP is depressing.
trs86
1/28/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Agreed..
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Yeah Stick, that is precisely how I mean to be using that fact about how long we were in first.
To refute the Nabobs and the insanely anti-Met national media.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Hey man, thanks for the compliment….and yes, my mantra of being close to first for most of the last 4 years in most definitely a search for a royal blue, orange, and silver lining.
I don’t write that to say that we are at the forefront of baseball’s best organizations—I just write it to counter what I see as the completely kooky ideas that we are in disarray, Omar is the worst, we suck, etc.
And I definitely do agree that frustration is appropriate, and I most definitely am also frustrated as a fan, with only one postseason appearance in the last four years with all of the talent we put on the field. No doubt.
Like you, I just am not giving up, and I cannot wait for the season. 2011 is an eternity from now. Hopefully we will finally be shooting for back to back postseason appearances in 2011!
trs86
1/28/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
I would much rather be frustrated than filled with apathy.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Apathy is generally not a word in my personal dictionary, as you can probably imagine!
trs86
1/28/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Mine neither, well except for my day job when the comment section here is hopping.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
HA!
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
I was gonna look up that “A” word you’re using, but I’m just not into it.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA!!
Took a second, but I get it!
Mr North Jersey
1/28/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
I most definitely hope we will be shooting for back to back postseason appearances in 2011.
That would be sweet indeed.
stickguy
1/28/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
quick hit: a revised to-do list for Omar.
Since the plan seemed to be get 1 of the stud FAs (done) and protect the farm (done) and fill in the gaps with value FAs or minor/salary dump trades (not done).
Well, the time is here to snap up the bargains that are falling through the cracks.
Go grab on the cheap (or try to) Barajas, Hudson and Gregg. Can likely get them all for a decent price, and ST contract. And it makes the team IMO quite a bit better, without blosing the budget, impacting 2010 off season, or gutting the farm.
That then just leaves unloading Castillo (and it can be done, just eat the money, it is a sunk cost), and finding that last SP (Harang me, please!), and the team will be as loaded for bear as it could be.
and for the poster calling for improving the role players and depth (DND?), this plan does exactly that, in a fiscally and future friendly way!
trs86
1/28/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
trs86
1/28/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
Doyle: If y’all don’t shut up, I’m gonna go out of my mind.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/334067-the-hangover-how-lack-of-urgency-has-destroyed-the-new-york-mets
prismo
1/28/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Yucky poll. Jumps from .500 team to practically playoff-guaranteed record. There’s no in-between! I voted for 81, but preferably I would’ve gone with 83-85 wins.
trs86
1/28/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Did not even see the poll. Just made the entire post even more idiotic.
My response:
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Ugh.
We “did nothing” on Lackey. Or, reality might suggest that he very much wanted to play for the Red Sox.
Who the hell wanted Marquis or Pineiro? The Mets should be COMMENDED for not signing those two.
Oy.
But I am glad he used unnecessary apostrophes in have’s and have not’s, which made the article that much more enjoyable for me!
trs86
1/28/2010-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Or the fact that the Mets were very much interested in Lackey but had no intentions of offering 5 or more years for a pitcher who had been injured to start the last 2 season.
prismo
1/28/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
As much as I think Lackey isn’t worth the $16+MM he’s getting from the Red Sox…
It’s a bit annoying that the Mets are still under-budget by nearly $15MM. For only an extra mil or two, they could have gotten Bay and Lackey and been very close to last year’s payroll.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, but as I am in blind optimism mode, perhaps they really are saving that 15 mil for a major in-season acquisition or two?
That really might be part of the plan.
trs86
1/28/2010-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
Assuming that we would have had to overpay Lackey more than the Redsox.
5 years/$82.5M
So what would the Mets have had to pay to get him to choose them over Boston?
6 years?
Personally I would not have given him more than 3+1.
stickguy
1/28/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
agreed.
and for the love of pete (not that there is anything wrong with that..) Willie wasn’t fired at 3:00. They were in California, so it was ~midnight (11:30?) local time, after a night game, so IOW, right about when they get back to the hotel.
Sure, maybe they should have pulled the trigger before the trip 9sounds like they weren’t quite prepared), but not rally a big deal, and the whole 3:00am nonsense is silly. They make it sound like they stormed his room when he was sleeping, and threw him out of the hotel in his Yankee feety jammies.
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
It is exaggerated but it was handled poorly. Omar should have done that firing by the end of the weekend when they were in NY, not wait until they got on a plane to go play in CA. Willie said he asked Omar, before he got on that bus to the airport, if he’s got plans to do that firing, please do it now (obviously I’m paraphrasing but you get the idea).
Whether Omar & Co. thought it was better to do that firing on the west coast, away from the NY media or Omar really didn’t want to fire him and was hoping for a miracle (and what, I wouldn’t know), it still was handled poorly.
trs86
1/28/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
LOL, really?
“The Mets needed to make some big news this off-season.
The Yankees are World Champions and play right down the street. They have added pieces to their club to get even better, and will almost certainly break attendance records, have bigger TV ratings, and sell more merchandise than the Mets can ever imagine. ”
Such sound logic.
steveo
1/28/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Trs this question is for you where is the mets budjet at now .
trs86
1/28/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know anymore.
Assuming that they spend as much as last year, I would put it between 12-18M.
stickguy
1/28/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
and if they sign Hudson and barajas and Gregg, they should still have enough to get someone like Harang if they take on 2/3 of his salary.
trs86
1/28/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
I would guess that trio would cost about 11M.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
anyone have access to Davidoff’s article re: common sense. I refuse to subscribe but I can’t tell whether its more Met bashing.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Just rub something like some rubbing alcohol into your eyes and deliberately step on some tacks barefoot–I really think this will very accurately approximate the experience of reading Davidoff on the Mets.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
lol.
It’s lightly snowing in the city so I’m wearing my Mets knit cap. In the elevator, someone notices my cap and asks, “So, you still believe?”
I’ve adopted trs’ response, “Let’s wait till Spring Training”
trs86
1/28/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
I have adjusted my response to “Let’s wait till Opening Day”
Try and keep up.
trs86
1/28/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Cerrone did come up with an interesting name.
What about trading for Jose Lopez. He is cheap, can play 2B but has also played 1B, SS, 3B and bats RH.
trs86
1/28/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
“In a post to Twitter, host Kevin Burkhardt says, “I’ll ask what in the world is happening this offseason, and if he is still in charge.â€
I like Burkhardt, but if I were Omar and he ask that I would say. “Yes, here is your pink slip.”
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
goes to show you that he’s not in charge
trs86
1/28/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
How does a reporter asking him if he is in charge imply that he is not?
I am just saying that if I were Omar and the Mets I would take on an it’s us against the world approach and say screw you to every media outlet.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Mr. literal, didn’t mean to say Omar isn’t in charge. Obviously he is the GM and is in charge.
What I meant to say is that for whatever reason, Omar has lost the respect of the reporters and possibly other baseball people.
My advice to Omar: Don’t command respect! Take it!
trs86
1/28/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Agree on that. I just don’t see how the Mets can continue to stand by while the media kills them for mostly made up garbage.
stickguy
1/28/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
because they don’t have a very good track record of standing up to the media (see: Rubin)!
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
The same way they stand by while ALL the free agents sign elsewhere!
Thank you, I’m here twice nightly all week, try the veal.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
lol. The Mets are the shy kid at a school dance.
trs86
1/28/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Who is well hung but nobody knows it.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
I’m going to try and phrase this delicately so as to not grossly offend and also to hopefully not get stuck in moderation:
The sooner the shy, nerdy Mets whip out their large tool and start screwing the rest of baseball with it the better. It’s about time for a Metsie-style “Revenge of The Nerds.”
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
*Let me preface this by saying this is not meant to be a political statement pro or con on either side.*
The White House’s war with Fox News was said to be a response to Fox News blurring the line between news and anti-Obama advocacy.
I’m not taking a stand on that issue. But maybe Omar and the Mets front office need to do what you suggest, and say, “Hey! We’re not going to stand by while the media kills us for mostly made up garbage.”
trs86
1/28/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Or buy the rest of the media outlets and get the to print the opposite which is also mostly made up garbage? Either strategy has worked.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
I think I understand you but want to make sure. Are you suggesting the Mets FO use SNY as their mouth piece?
trs86
1/28/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Seriously, I am starting to think that we are the only sane people that are Mets fans:
“Let me start off by saying the New York Mets are a disgrace.
The Wilpons have no idea how to run a baseball team, Omar Minaya is a disgrace to General Managers everywhere and Jerry Manual is just awful.
And every Mets fan agrees with me.
2010 will not be a very good year for the Mets, as they will be lucky to have a better record then the Washington Nationals, who seem to have gained all the respect the Mets have lost this off season.”
From Bob Vila. Uh I mean Frank Viola. Uh Joe Viola, that’s it.
stickguy
1/28/2010-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
well, in the current digital media age, once idiocy reaches critical mass, you can’t stop the virtual snowball.
Just keep the clips, and throw them back in their faces when the Mets do Perfectly fine this year.
The Nats? Some interesting young pitching, but did you see some of the trash names they added this off season?
Can’t argue with the idea about Jerry though, but you know what they say about the blind squirrel.
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
“well, in the current digital media age, once idiocy reaches critical mass, you can’t stop the virtual snowball.”
Holy crap is that a great statement on the current state of the media.
trs86
1/28/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, just ask uh… never mind LOL.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Olbereilly?
Kingman 26
1/28/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
FrankenCoulter??
Now THAT is a monster….
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Olbereilly versus Frankencoulter.
There’s a cage match I’d buy on pay-per-view.
In the meantime I’ll just sit here and wait for someone to ask us why we put the liberals’ names first in the hybrid.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
yeah, it’s past the tipping point. it’s a full on flood.
mrose
1/28/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
“And every Mets fan agrees with me.
2010 will not be a very good year for the Mets, as they will be lucky to have a better record then the Washington Nationals, who seem to have gained all the respect the Mets have lost this off season.â€
UGH! That bothers the hell outta me…
I do not agree with this a-hole and i’m SO freaking sick of the “lucky to be better than the Nationals” crap…
saltygary
1/28/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Kieth Law just ranked all the teams farm systems before he comes out with his top prospect list:
15. New York Mets
It’s fashionable in New York to bash their system, but productive international scouting continues to bail out their draft efforts, which are repeatedly hamstrung by ownership’s refusal to exceed slot in the first few rounds.
trs86
1/28/2010-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
They did exceed slot last year. Not by much, but what does it matter if they only did it by a small amount? Should they have paid him more to make us look better? LOL>
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
They should’ve exceeded slot for the 2 of their top 10 picks that they ultimately didn’t sign. Why pick them in the first place? Total waste.
fongy2
1/28/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Why the hell just not draft the best player
available?? This ain’t the NBA!
trs86
1/28/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
You are right. There are 150,000,000 players to choose from. LOL. Bound to be disagreements on who is the best. I don’t think the Mets are sitting there saying “Can’t sign this guy because we are too cheap”
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t either. I think they’re sitting there saying “Can’t sign this guy because he’s too expensive.”
Tomato, Tomato
Potato, Potato
let’s call the whole thing off!
By the way when I was in college a lot of my friends were actors and I used to go to auditions with them. I actually saw a young woman audition by singing that song, only she wasn’t familiar with it so she pronounced tomato and potato the same way each time. It was one of the funniest things I’ve ever witnessed in my life.
fongy2
1/28/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
What I meant is in the NBA
you’d likely pass on a guy
if he plays the same position as one of your
best players…i.e. Portland
with Drexler and not tking
Jordan.
Only five guys out there
and usually 8 or 9 that
play on your team.
fongy2
1/28/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Trying to get apositive vibe goin’, I’ve been looking over most
teams off-season moves and rosters…including ours.
What I’m having a hard time with are the following:
Should everything go well,maybe we get 780/800 inns out of
Johan,Pelf,Maine&Ollie…Where are the other 30+GS & 200+Inns,
gonna come from???
Should everything go well and KRod returns to form and is lights-
out in the 9th, Feliciano locks-down Lefties AND Green & Parnell
Pitch mostly well and become really solid 6th/7th inning options,
Who exactly is our regular 8th inning guy???
Should Pagan and/or Matthews hold down the fort until Beltran
comes back, then one or both go to the Bench with Cora and I guess Tatis, who is the late game big bat off that bench???
trs86
1/28/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm.
Hopefully
Johan 33 starts and 225 innings
Pelfrey 32 starts and 200 innings
Maine if healthy gives you 32 and 190+ I would expect 22 and 125+
Perez if healthy gives you 32+ and 190+ I would expect 28 and 160
I think for the #5 spot with Niese, Nieve, Figgy, Gee, and whatever scrub we pick up will do fine. We actually had good numbers from those type pitchers last year. Lets say combined they give you 47 starts and 260 innings.
162 starts and 970 innings. Not bad really.
Just assumes that Maine and Perez can give you 50 starts.
stickguy
1/28/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
50 for maine and perez combined should hopefully be conservative. And if they get those numbers, plus the santana and pelf 30+, the team will be in real good shape.
And if they add a “real” 5th starter from outside, then you are in even better shape.
fongy2
1/28/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
First off, I think we better dial back our expectations with Johan. I din’t think theres any
doubt,coming off his injury he will be on a very strict 100 pitch count and likely they’ll try to give him an extra day here and there.
I’m hoping for 32GS/210inns/17wins.
I’m hoping Pelf at least gets back to where he was
and gives us 32GS/200inns/13wins.
Hoping Ollie is somewhere b/t ’07&’08, giving us
30GS/180inns/13wins.Lastly,I’m hoping Maine,2nd
yr back after being cut on gives us close to his
’07 numbers 30GS/180inns/13wins.
Now this assumes everyone is fairly healthy, Beltran returns by May and the team is at least
in the middle of the pack hitting and fielding
in The NL.
That gives us 124GS/770inns/56wins.
In reality doesn’t this staff cry out for
a guy who can/will start 32 games,gives us 200+
innings and pitch well enough to win 15 games???
trs86
1/28/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Yeah but it does not have to have one. See 2006.
stickguy
1/28/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Well, keep in mind that all teams have a few questions (and last roster spots and/or roles) to nail down as they head into ST.
but, to answer your specific questions:
1) the last 30 GS will come from the 5th starter! Oh, you want a name? I predict 1 more SP is still going to be brought in, with any remaining (or in case that doesn’t happen) spread between Neive, Neise, and players TBD. I actually think Neise can win and hold the job, if his leg holds together, but he likely needs to start inthe minors.
2) The 8th inning guy will likely develop as the pen shakes out, although to be fair, the ridiculous (MHO, of course) level of slotting these days has gone too far. So, my names? THe japanese guy and Escobar, along with parnell, will have a chance to lock down the role, but most likely, it is a committee approach.
3) the last bench spot will also be won in ST, and could be a late pick up (like SHeff last year). Right now, my early favorite to start the year is Carter, since they could use a LH bat with some power in the role.
fongy2
1/28/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I know all this but where are the shorter-
odd things??? Everything mentioned is “best case
scenario”.
Why isn’t Omar out there signing Gregg and Thames
right now???
trs86
1/28/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Good question. I think he feels comfortable with his RHRP. As for Thames I think it would be a good move but Tatis is more versatile.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Tatis > Thames.
I think Gregg would be a wise acquisition too. If your starters can’t pitch, your bullpen better be prepared to shoulder the load. And as of now, the team does not have any proven reliable right handed reliever other than Rodriguez. Igarashi and Escobar are maybes (Escobar chose not to show up to minicamp afterall, a bad sign), and I would not be disappointed to see Parnell begin this season as Norfolk’s closer.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Ha. You also thought the Mets were committed to Stokes.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Regarding Japanese lefthanded pitcher Hanori Takahashi, who the Mets are reportedly interested in: “Takahashi doesn’t throw very hard or shut down lefties, but is known for his screwball.”
Where do I sign? 8)
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
The blame for last season (it’s tough to cast blame for the previous two seasons of relative success) falls equally on the manager, the GM, the owners and the players themselves.
So to me the choices are to see if they’ve all learned (it does not appear that the former three have so far) or to clean house and change the culture of the team.
I’d start with Manuel if the team does not show life by the end of May. And I’d probably remove Omar before the July trade deadline if it appears that the Mets will be sellers rather than buyers. I know that would only give the new manager a month to save Omar’s job but I don’t trust Omar to lead a rebuild while he’s a lame duck GM.
As for the players, only Santana, Reyes and Wright would be safe. And I do think it is possible to rebuild and compete at the same time.
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
IMO, this season is going to come down to pitching, pitching, pitching.
In 2006 we lost out on a chance to go to the WS not b/c Beltran froze on strike 3 but more b/c we lost Pedro and ElDuque for the post season. Maine and Perez did their best but in the end, it wasn’t enough. Heilman giving up that bomb did not help either.
In 2007 we were sitting pretty until early Sept. No getting around it, we just flat out collapsed. Had we had better pitching, I really believe the team would have rose to the occasion behind that stellar pitching and the collapse would not have happened. We were near the top for the season in runs scored.
In 2008 we had arguably the worst BP in ML. What was it – 30 blown saves? Cut that in half, or even by 10, we win the division. I believe we tied for most runs scored that year. The offense consistently gave us the lead by the 3rd/4th inning and pitching gave it right back. I’m tired of hearing about that ‘unclutch’ argument. The offense did their job in the early innings. Asking them to consistently turn around and do it again in the late innings to overcome poor pitching was not as easy as some thought it should be.
In 2009 SI picked the Mets to win the WS. Injuries galore – enough said.
It’s now 2010. The team has for the most part gotten younger. The offense is about the same. Swap Delgado for Bay and Church for Frenchy. The BP acquisitions should make that stronger.
IMO, the problem lies in the SP. All ??s right now behind Johan. Little depth. Whether it’s Omar’s fault or not we didn’t get stronger in that area is obviously cause for wide debate. Bottom line to me is that SP staff is going to make or break this season.
That being said, I still would have started 2010 with a new GM and manager but what do I know?
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
That pretty much sums it up. I’m talking to my people now to see if we can fit you into my writers budget.
prismo
1/28/2010-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Is my check still in the mail!?
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
HAHAHA !
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Wait a sec, you’re like the fifth person I’ve seen
post “Our BP acqs should make us stronger”
Than last spring????
With KRod, Putz, Green, Feliciano all expected to be
at their best???
This season we go in wondering which KRod we have,
the first or second half of the season one,
Not knowing if any of these guys can pitch in the
8th OR even in Escobar, can he Pitch at all??
I’m rooting for Everets BUT is he even an MLBer??
We learned Green just ain’t that good and even makes us all very nervous in the 6th, let alone the 8th.
And except for a couple of youtube clips, striking out the likes of Larry Bigbie, Who knows what we’ll get
out of Ryota???
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
I never had any faith in Green.
To me, the jury was out on Parnell and still is.
Putz was always an injury concern.
I don’t even know if Misch was included in the opening day BP last year.
So with the 12 or so arms we’ve got competing for BP slots, IMO it should be a bit better than last year. As long as they leave off Green. I just don’t understand the fascination with him….
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
Wait a sec TRS….2006???
THAT team had a lights-out Bullpen which gave us like 500 HIGH-
Quality Innings!…That team scored well over 800 Runs and
hit 200 HRs.
C’mon man!!…Are you kidding again??
Is there ANY chance 2010s team will do any off the above…..
OR even 80% of any one of the above???
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I reminded myself of that the other day. I looked it up and the starting pitchers on the 2006 won a total of 65 games. The bullpen won 32, which would seem to reflect a lineup capable of comebacks and a bullpen capable of holding them. I’m not sure either of those two things are in place right now. I can believe with things breaking right with the current crew that they can be in place.
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe BUT It don’t look good!
The problem many,I think many are missing is….
THAT with a questionable BP how are we gonna
survive a tight pitch count from Johan,
only getting 5 or 6 innings a night from Maine
and Ollie AND maybe less from whichever young/AAAA
Pitcher mans the 5th spot?
I mean, even if Maine and Ollie are “right”….
They both throw a ton of pitches.
With THAT, aren’t we likely to need 2 or 3 PHers
almost every night???…If not more??
Look, I’m no big Jerry fan BUT when he turns to
the Bench in the 5th,6th,7th inning for A PH….
He’s looking at Cora, Matthews and Pagan.
Not great!!!!!
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
To be fair, I can’t remember what I felt about the team in late January 2006 and whether I had any idea that their lineup would score that much and whether their bullpen was that good.
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Okay, BUT thats not my point.
However, along those lines,
That Bullpen seemed to be alot more of a sure thing,givin’the history,to that point of those
Pitchers than this group.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly, other than expressing your distrust and uncertainty in the current roster, which is completely fair, I’m not sure what your point is.
My only point is I genuinely can’t remember what my level of optimism, pessimism, or expectation was for the 2006 team that January which eventually did all the above things you note. Therefore I simply can’t compare what I may have felt then about that team to what I feel now about this one.
I would say that with the benefit of hindsight (which I simply can’t just push aside and pretend I don’t have) I can not look back at the roster of the 2006 team, then look at the 2010 roster, and feel confident I’m going to get similar results. But I just can’t remove my knowledge of how 2006 wound up so therefore I’m looking at that collection of players through a post-2006 season lens, not a pre. So for me it’s unfair to compare what this group might or might not do to what that group did.
You and anyone else of course feel free, I just can’t do it.
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Okay!
trs86
1/28/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Did the 2006 BP look great going in?
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
It looked a whole lot better than this one!
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
By Aug though we lost Duaner, and replaced him with an arm that had like one appearance and then got hurt, never to be seen in a Met uni again.
That left the strong tandum of Duaner/Heilman no longer there. And that definitely affected the way the BP was used down the stretch and in post season. And I think it had an affect on Heilman – it was like the beginning of the end for him b/c he never looked as good again as he did in the first half of ’06.
trs86
1/28/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
Really? Do me a favor and go back and pull the opening day BP for 2006.
stickguy
1/28/2010-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
I guarantee it was comprised of unproven young guys, retreads with injury issues, and old stiff cast offs, and a closer no one really trusted.
Oh, that was Heilman, Sanchez, Oliver and Wagner BTW.
I have no idea who the other 3 guys were.
hindsight is wonderful, but I dare you to find any reports trumpeting the BP coming out of ST as the backbone of the team, and likely to dominate.
fongy2
1/28/2010-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
Wags,Heilmann,Sanchez all
appeared to
be real good
coming into
2006.
Bradford had
been good before.
Feliciano was an unknown and
Oliver was ofcourse a big surprise.
As much as I like KRod, given what we saw the 2nd half,he
ain’t Wags coming off 2005.
Even if KRod can be expected to return to form and Feliciano cont’s to be good, What else is there?
Escobar? Will he even be on the team…Hasn’t pitched in 2 yrs AND hasn’t been a RP in what?
8 yrs?
Is Everett even an MLBer?
And what do we know about
Ryota??
Kaz Matsui was a friggin’ Superstar in
Japan!
Some of you argue just to argue…
But c’mon here!
This Bullpen ISN’T a question mark??
trs86
1/28/2010-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I still say this bullpen is no more of a question mark than 2006.
trs86
1/28/2010-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
Opening day outlook 2006:
Doesn’t the primary question for every team involve pitching? They say you can never have enough. The Mets seem to have enough until the surface is scratched.
Like the best-equipped teams, everything has to go right — Martinez has to make 30 starts; Glavine has to pitch at the level he established after the All-Star break last season; Trachsel must be what he has proved to be over the years, a double-digit winner; Bannister’s March into the rotation must translate into April results; and Zambrano must perform to the levels Randolph and pitching coach Rick Peterson foresee.
Clearly, they have upgraded at the closer role. Wagner is a force. And the return of Heilman in the ‘pen is a boost. At the same time, the current rotation doesn’t appear as solid as the rotation that existed last summer.
The Mets won 28 of the 42 games started by Jae Seo and Kris Benson last year. Part of the reason both were traded is that the club didn’t anticipate either being so productive this year. But how will that quantity of quality be replaced?
If Mike Pelfrey develops quickly and prompts a mid-to-late summer promotion, things could change for the better.
The emergence of the two rookie starters in the same season would be a compelling storyline. But a club with an agenda that includes late October probably shouldn’t begin the season looking down while it plans to move up.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see how this article supports either position. If anything, it questioned the strength of the rotation but not the bullpen.
trs86
1/28/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
Point was that the pitching staff in 2006 was very similar to this one.
Wagner-Top closer
Heilman- Inconsistent. Could be good in the pen.
Sanchez- Good numbers but WHIP was not great.
Julio-BAD
Bradford-injured only 25 innings in 2005
Oliver-Bad
Padilla- never even made it to opening day.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Really? Because it looks like this string starts with this question:
trs86 says:
Thursday, January 28 2010 at 12:50 pm
Did the 2006 BP look great going in?
trs86
1/28/2010-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
This string sure does.
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
But didn’t we use like 12 starters in 2006 to accomplish that? Little shaky, if you ask me. Lucky for us it did work out.
trs86
1/28/2010-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
True, my point is that I am not sure the BP or rotation going into the season is any worse this year than it was to start 2006.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
re: expectations of our pitching staff
I read a while back an article that basic said that once a team’s 6-8 pitchers start more than 10 games, you can pretty much kiss the playoffs good buy.
It’s not 100% guaranteed, but pretty consistent.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
This is not to confirm or dispute, and is obviously just a one year sample, but I find it interesting. 2009 Team, starter, and # of games started.
Phillies: Blanton 31, Hamels 32, Happ 23, Moyer 25, Lee 12, Myers 10, Martinez 9, Park 7, Lopez 5, Bastardo 5, others 3
Cardinals: Wainwright 34, Pineiro 32, Carpenter 28, Wellemeyer 21, Lohse 22, Boggs 9, Thompson 8, Smoltz 7, others 1
Dodgers: Wolf 34, Billingsley 32, Kershaw 30, Kuroda 20, Stults 10, Padilla 7, Weaver 7, Garland 6, Milton 5, Schmidt 4, McDonald 4, others 3
Rockies: Marquis 33, Jimenez 33, de la Rosa 32, Hammel 30, Cook 27, Contreras 2, Morales 2, others 3
Yankees: Sabathia 34, Burnett 33, Pettitte 32, Chamberlain 31, Wang 9, Mitre 9, Hughes 7, Gaudin 6, others 1
Red Sox: Lester 32, Beckett 32, Penny 24, Wakefield 21, Buchholz 16, Matsuzaka 12, Smoltz 8, Byrd 6, Masterson 6, others 5
Twins: Baker 33, Blackburn 33, Liriano 24, Perkins 17, Slowey 16, Swarzak 12, Pavano 12, Duensing 9, Manship 5, others 2
Angels: Weaver 33, Saunders 31, Lackey 27, Santana 23, Palmer 13, O’Sullivan 10, Kazmir 6, Loux 6, Bell 4, Ortega 3, Moseley 3, others 3
So unless the writer of the article meant each of pitchers 6-8 starting 10 games, and not 10 games total being started by pitchers 6-8, every 2009 playoff team except the Rockies had more than 10 games total started by pitchers 6 and beyond.
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Heb, love ya!…BUT you really do have too much
time on your hands!
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
True. Are you hiring?
fongy2
1/28/2010-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
No, not right now!
I have the exact same problem!
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Damn. Well I’ll hope you keep my application on file.
metsfan4decades
1/28/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Or more likely the writer decided to put that statement out there not qualifying it’s opinion b/c he obviously didn’t do the homework you just did….
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve been trying to find the article, but Omar has better chances of signing a SPer than me actually finding it. I know it was ESPN, or maybe SI.
It had a chard of the last few playoff teams and showed that their 6-8 pitchers usually didn’t start more than 15 games.
The premise was that 6-8 pitchers were pretty crappy and if they start too many games, you’ll probably not win too many games.
I’ll try to find it later, because I might be misrepresenting it.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
lol. it had a CHART
and I read it a couple of years age
prismo
1/28/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Does anyone have ESPN Insider who can list the Mets in Keith Law’s top 100 prospects list? http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=4856310
mrose
1/28/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
you have mail
stickguy
1/28/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
after poking around at that “other” place, if Jose Lopez is actually available for a reasonable price, grab him. Different sort than Hudson, but certainly fits into the bludgeon the other team to death model. And he is better than Luis defensively
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
I guess we’re kind of far removed from it at this point but I do want to weigh in on Mr. NJ’s article, especially his chart.
Without doing lots of research it sure seems as if the basic foundation (the cheap talent coming up from the minors to build around, Wright & Reyes) was put in place under the previous ownership and GM. Yes Minaya was here for some of that, so he likely had some input in those players being drafted/signed.
He certainly came to the Mets as GM with the reputation for having a good scout’s eye for talent. But since his arrival here the farm system has been pilfered for trades and has only recently started to be refilled, as evidenced by the recent ranking of the system as 15th in the league.
So for me the great disappointment of the Omar Minaya as GM tenure has been his inability to do both what I thought he would/could do, which was scout and draft well thus keeping the farm system flush with talent despite trading some of it off and despite losing 1st round picks due to signing free agents, and to do what I had no idea he would do which was to make those big trades and sign those big free agents.
I am pretty much completely satisfied with his big trade and big FA signings. It’s the farm system, which was allegedly his field of expertise, that I am disappointed he wasn’t able to keep intact along the way.
Now is that his fault, or does he really prefer to draft the best players, but is hamstrung by an ownership friendly with the commissioner and therefore committed to not paying over slot for draft picks despite their being no actual rule against it and no punishment for doing it other than your farm system is lacking?
So I don’t know for sure, but I’m inclined to blame ownership for the failings of the farm system. The fact that Omar’s other activities have (due to him or not) become a sideshow means IMO he must go, but I just don’t think that will solve things. I think only new ownership, or current ownership softening it’s no-over slot stance can change things.
stickguy
1/28/2010-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
not sure I like the use of the word “pilfer” in that context. That would imply other teams were getting stars fromt eh met system with no return.
Outside of maybe that RP from the padres, while a lot of guys got traded, who really turned out to be any good (yet)?
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
That’s fair, I probably could’ve found a better word. My intent in using it was to suggest that in making “4 for 1″ trades, he is removing 4 “bodies” from the system that may or may not become major league players at minimum prices, and replacing them with 1 player being paid a premium. Continually doing that can’t be good for the overall health of the system.
That those players didn’t ultimately pan out is still an indictment (it’s not as if he’s shown us he’s a genius by picking all the “bad” guys to trade and keeping all the “good” guys). They need to be drafting and signing players that can come up and contribute cheaply to fit in with the $16-$22 million guys.
It seems like they may have been doing that the last two years or so, but where was that in the 2005-2007 period? I find it hard to believe that “the plan” was to draft poorly then trade them for premium talent before anyone was wiser.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
re: the farm system, we also have to note the difference of development in int’l free agents and draft picks.
In Omar’s first year as GM he signed F-Mart at 16 who is just turning 21 years old. The same year he signed Deolis Guerra who went in the Santana trade. So you gotta figure, any int’l talent that he’s signed since will not be as developed as F-Mart.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/050711mets.html
As for the draft, in 05 the Mets picked Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell, Thole. In 06, they picked Mulvey, Smith, and Murphy. The 07 and 08 drafts have some promising guys. I’m not saying this is good or bad, since I don’t know the average ration of draft picks that actually make it to the majors, but I can say that these guys either helped bring in a player, are helping the team now, or will soon.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
*average ratio*
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
I’m still hopeful for Kirk Presley.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Presley currently resides in Tupelo, Mississippi and serves as the head coach for the Tupelo 49ers American Legion baseball team.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
I knew he’d make us proud.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t dispute anything you say here. I just wish more of these people were with the Mets major league team, actually helping it with their performance, and thus doing so at low cost compared with the overall payroll of the major league club.
Our results from the 2005 draft are as you note Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell. Niese has really done nothing at this level yet and the other two are at best inconsistent. And that was 5 years ago. That draft should be bearing fruit now.
Just as I was saying elsewhere in this thread about the 2006 bullpen versus the one now, I can’t go back in time and say who I wanted then. I just know that 5 years later there’s not a lot to show for it.
If Omar’s grand plan was to sign a bunch of 16 year old international players and “hold the fort” with expensive free agents and contract dump trades then I would have to say it hasn’t quite worked and he might not be around to see it when those 16 year olds either finally make it or finally don’t.
Because unfortunately for him, when his ’07 team was collapsing he couldn’t call on any of them to help stop it. When his ’08 team lost the key bullpen cog, he had no one from the system to step in and fill the gap. When his ’09 team suffered historic injuries, no rookies came up and excelled.
It may be a grass is always greener view I have, but I see other franchise dipping into their own farm systems with far greater success than the Mets have during Omar’s time here.
I’m not sure he ever made a statement to this effect so I can’t hold him to this standard with conviction, but if he ever said or at least had in his own mind a 5 year plan to let this fruit develop, the problem seems to be the crop isn’t ripe yet and we’re entering year 6.
Of course if the 2010 team is successful, and is so due to an infusion of young talent such as Pelfrey turning a corner to consistency, Parnell doing the job in a key late role in the pen, Niese taking a spot in the rotation, Murphy continuing to progress and Thole and/or Davis forcing the club to call them up mid-season, then I will be wrong. I hope I’m wrong.
But 6 years in for a guy known for his scouting and drafting seems a long time to wait.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
We’re entering year 5. If they were drafted in 05, their first season would be 06.
I agree w/ the “sense” that there should be help, but without comparing the amount of ML ready players on other teams that have been drafted or signed in 2005 or after, I really can’t argue one way or another.
It seems to me that while signing the 16 year old int’l FAs, Omar also was drafting college players to off set the young int’l FAs.
To your last paragraph, I can see all that happening plus F-Mart, Tejada, Havens, Holt and Mejia.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Once again my terrible math skills and inability to translate them to calendar reading have failed me. I stand corrected and appreciate the gentle correction. I dub thee Ex-Lax.
saltygary
1/28/2010-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
Keith Law’s top 100 (Just the Mets):
#23 Jenrry Mejia
Mejia entered 2009 with no experience above short-season leagues, but finished it in Double-A despite missing time in the middle of the year with a strained finger on his pitching hand. He has top-of-the-rotation stuff, but is just 20 with the command you’d expect to see in a live-armed teenager with barely 200 innings in pro ball. His fastball sits at 93-96 and will tick higher, and the ball sometimes shows natural cutting action toward left-handed hitters. His changeup is his best off-speed pitch and, at 85-87 mph with good tail, looks like a soft two-seamer. His curveball is very inconsistent, but at its best, it’s plus with good two-plane break and depth in the upper 70s. He’s thick but not tall, and his slot is just below 3/4 — so he has to work on staying on top of the ball, and the finger injury reduced his already below-average command. That said, he’s 20 and has shown he can get advanced hitters in Double-A out. If the Mets slow him down a little and let him spend all of 2010 (and maybe some of 2011) in the minors to improve his command and the consistency of his changeup and curve, they have a chance for a No. 1 or No. 2 starter.
#41 Wilmer Flores
Flores, as predicted, broke with a full-season club in 2009 and held his own despite playing most of the year at 17. He has very quick wrists and is short to the ball with good finish. The ball flies off his bat, especially in BP, in which he shows the promise of future plus power, and in games he has already shown that he can square balls up against pitchers two or three years his senior. In fact, of players with at least 400 at-bats in the Sally League in 2009, only one hitter had fewer strikeouts than Flores did. His main deficiency as a player is very slow feet, even though he’s not thickly built, and he has no shot to stay at shortstop and little shot of handling third base, which means he’ll end up at first base or in an outfield corner, although there’s an excellent chance his bat plays in any of those positions.
#64 Ike Davis
Davis’ mediocre debut in 2008 turned out to be a red herring, as he finished his first full season in 2009 in Double-A and isn’t far from reaching the majors. He has raw power, especially dead pull power, and showed that he can murder a fastball and lay off a lot of pitches out of the zone against right-handed pitchers. On the downside, Davis doesn’t hit left-handed pitching at all, and even against right-handers struggles to recognize off-speed stuff. He’s a reasonably good athlete who can handle first base and actually has a plus arm — he was 92-94 mph as a reliever in college — although that’s less relevant at the position. A full year in Double-A/Triple-A to work on pitch recognition and on improving his approach against left-handers is probably critical for his future as an everyday player, but he has a chance to be an above-average one if he can shed the “platoon player” tag with more reps.
#73 Fernando Martinez
Martinez has one of the biggest drops of anyone on this list (from last year’s list), but I’m not down on Martinez’s offensive potential — the ball still comes off his bat incredibly well, comparable to Starlin Castro, who sits in the Top 25 of this list because of that skill — and I could have left Martinez in the Top 25 and justified it. The problems with “F-Mart,” aside from the fact that Mets fans decided to give him a nickname more appropriate for a farm-equipment discount store, aren’t about baseball skills. He continues to have trouble staying healthy, and there’s a real risk of Chris Snelling disease here, with lack of playing time limiting his development; he’s never had more than 400 plate appearances in any season, and even including winter ball this offseason, when he was just back from knee surgery, he had fewer than 300 PAs in ’09. Martinez has also had his work ethic and conditioning called into question, including a visible lack of effort more than once at the big league level last year. Very few players can coast to major league stardom on talent alone, and Martinez needs to grow up — he’s still just 21 years old — to turn himself into an elite corner-outfield bat. (It looks like Martinez has exactly 45 days on the Mets’ active roster, which would make him eligible for the Rookie of the Year award in 2010, as well as for this list. If he had just one more day on the active roster, he’d no longer be eligible.)
saltygary
1/28/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
Pretty positive all around except for F-Mart which I think is fair. Nice to read something like this today.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for sharing your insider access Salty.
I agree that it is nice to read, and the overall “positiviality” ™ of it allows me to simply shrug off the “farm equipment discount store” reference.
saltygary
1/28/2010-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
Pretty funny comment I thought. Law can be very snarky.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
pretty incredible that Flores was 2nd w/ fewest strikeouts in the Sally. That’s really impressive.
CaseStreet
1/28/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
problem is, with 528 PA Flores only walked 22 times.
If he’s not striking out or walking, then this guy can def make contact.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
He’s the future Bengie Molina!
stickguy
1/28/2010-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
I think that is pretty common for real young guys though, at the lower levels, if they are good they just hit the ball.
Now, if you get up to A+ or AA with no walk rate, that can be a problem!
fongy2
1/28/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
According to mattsblog, “The Mets showing interest in Josh Fogg”
Makes sense!?…Sign him Omar!..Please!
Just so I can read the headline…Mets sign Josh,”Omar in a Fogg”
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
I am actually OK with him being brought in for the role that I think many of us want Smoltz to have if he comes, which is bullpen guy capable of making swing starts.
I could see Fogg coming in on a minor league w/spring invite deal and making the team as long man/spot starter.
fongy2
1/28/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. At this point I’m pretty much Okay
with Omar bringing in any of the remaining
“discount” Free Agents.
We need ballplayers, way to many question marks
for me. So, I’d at least like to have quantity
if we can’ have quality.
It’s better than having neither.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
In 80 career relief innings he has been much better than as a starter. Some comparisons
.219/.286/.332 v. .289/.351/.484
3.36 ERA v. 5.16
6.2 K/9 v. 4.8
2.12 k/BB v. 1.54
.8 H/IP v. 1.1
It may just be the difference in sample sizes but perhaps Fogg just pitches better when hitters see him only once, he doesn’t need to use three pitches or can just air it out a bit. He strikes out more hitters, walks fewer and gives up fewer hits as a reliever.
trs86
1/28/2010-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
True, could you pull up home and away splits for those too? Please? LOL.
wannybackstra
1/28/2010-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
They were not all in the same home.
trs86
1/28/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
True but Cinncy nor Colorado are known for being a pitcher’s park. Just curious to see if Colorado had an effect on him.
fongy2
1/28/2010-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Pittsburg isn’t either.
trs86
1/28/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
Last year his ERA was slightly worse on the road.
fongy2
1/28/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for that Wanny!
I just thought he was a bad Pitcher.
Maybe not a bad reliever just a bad starter.
Very good post and your thoughts are
likely correct.
Sign Fogg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stickguy
1/28/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
I am all for loading up on ST invites and MiL deals. Hopefully find one or 2 winners out of them (Tatis, Valentin, etc.)
fongy2
1/28/2010-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! How could it hurt?
trs86
1/28/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Amongst all the panic on MB there was one funny line:
“Fogg got pretty lucky (.197 batting average on balls in play). Can’t strike anybody out, mediocre control.â€
Wow! This sounds like the Mes 3, 4, & 5 pitchers. Sign him! He’d fit right in.”
stickguy
1/28/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
saw that.
But to be fair, Maine and Castillo can strike out plenty of guys.
I won’t mention Ollie and Control in the same context.
fongy2
1/28/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Wow! The want to argue for some is really Amazin’ to me
Again, Wags coming off ’05, Sanchez really good stuff, had some
success with LA in ’04&’05. Heilmann,pretty darn good once he was made a RP. Bradford, bad ’05 BUT pretty darn good from
2000 to 2004,especially as a specialist.
Lefties Feliciano and Oliver, question marks, no doubt.
Right now, Lets say KRod is a wash with THAT Billy Wags.
What exactly can you point to which supports your argument
that Escobar,Ryota&Green have been better than Heilmann,Sanchez
and Bradford had been for the couple yrs prior to the ’06 season?
C’mon man. Stop. There is no argument.
We don’t even know if Escobar can pitch, let alone relieve in
60/70 gms which he hasn’t done in eight yrs.
Sean Green is as good as any of the three I mentioned
and we have no idea if Ryota can get MLB hitters out.
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
I hope you’ll forgive me asking what the difference is between this phenomenon you’re referring to as “arguing for the sake of arguing” and your self-admitted posting of anti-Omar comments that you don’t even really believe just to see who will come to his defense and what they’ll say. That sounds like “arguing for the sake of it” to me. 8)
fongy2
1/28/2010-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
Ya kinda got me!
I will say however in my own defense that at least
most of my anti-Omar arguments are based in fact.
Like the fact that HE STINKS as a GM!!!
GravediggerHebner
1/28/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
So what’s the skinny on this guy?
Draft#:7
Karsten Whitson
Ht/Wt: 6-4/190 lbs
Position:RHP
School: Chipley HS (FL)
mymlbdraft.com has the Mets picking him with their 1st rounder this June in their mock draft.
fongy2
1/28/2010-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
He sounds skinny!
I was once 6’4″ 190 BUT that was fifty pounds ago