“But they were just too strong
they’d stick it in your face
and let you smell what they consider wrong”
-Filter, “Hey Man, Nice Shot” from their album “Short Bus”
Today Jon Heyman you published your list of the 8 worst off seasons in MLB and in your opinion the Mets had the worst of all. That you graded the other 7 teams strictly on personnel moves (or non-moves) but added the Carlos Beltran knee surgery saga to the Mets reasons for having the worst off season is perhaps the most glaringly unfair aspect of your biased report.
Jon, you are no fool. You know that the New York City cow is a big one which provides a lot of milk. You should know that considering that SNY and WFAN are on your long list of employers. You also know that in order to get milk from a cow you don’t have to be gentle or kind. You certainly weren’t in your appraisal of the Mets off season.
All I ask from you Jon is to apply the same logic to all 8 teams. You say the Mets, aside from signing Jason Bay, “mostly imported a collection of back up catchers…comfortable old friends…and question marks.” I consider that a fair statement.
But then you go on to chide them for not adding Joel Pineiro to what you call a “paper thin rotation” and for playing “hardball” with and therefore losing out on Bengie Molina.
Jon, Jon, Jon. If the Mets rotation is already “paper thin” in your amateur estimation why add another “question mark” to it? To consider Joel Pineiro anything other than a “question mark” is to willfully ignore his 10 year career and focus with laser intensity on his 2009. Which Joel Pineiro would the Mets be getting for their $16 million or so investment, the 2009 Pineiro, the 2003 Pineiro, or the Pineiro of 2004-2008 who compiled a 35-47 record with an ERA of 5.34, a WHIP of 1.471 and an ERA+ of 82? Seems a legitimate “question” to me especially considering that St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach and graduate of Hogwarts Academy Dave Duncan is not part of the package.
Furthermore Jon, you’ve presumably been observing baseball for long enough to notice the rather steep decline in the performance of catchers at and after their 35th birthdays yet you consider the Mets not signing one of those to a 2-year contract to be unwise? This defies logic.
After giving the Mets the # 1 designation in your appraisal of off seasons you move on to # 2, the proud perennial runner-up Chicago Cubs. Apparently the worst off season title is as elusive to the Cubs as a World Series title despite their best efforts. Was willfully acquiring pitcher Carlos Silva not bad enough for you Jon? The Cubs will have to pay Silva $23 million for the next 2 seasons, then $2 million more after 2011 just to make him go away. Silva’s career ERA and WHIP of 4.72 and 1.409 respectively don’t sound so bad until you realize his 2 most recent seasons consist of a 5-19 record with an ERA and WHIP of 6.81 and 1.687 respectively. And to get this great pitcher the Cubs sent away outfielder Milton Bradley and the $21 million he is owed for the next 2 seasons. Now Bradley isn’t going to win any nice guy awards but he’s certainly proven to be capable of providing more offense than Marlon Byrd who the Cubs then had to sign to replace Bradley. That sounds like a net on field detriment to me.
How you can consider giving even $1 to Xavier Nady coming off his second Tommy John surgery, which is something unprecedented in major league history for a position player, less wrong than anything the Mets did this off season escapes me. Oh and Jon, it wasn’t Rafael Soriano that proved untradeable for the Cubs, it was Alfonso Soriano. But you were half right (as you often are).
The Dodgers lost their one viable veteran starting pitcher in Randy Wolf, and will enter 2010 with the venerable Ronnie Belliard and Jamey Carroll competing for their starting 2B job, which means best friend of the media Orlando Hudson won’t be returning. With your love of Hudson made so plain daily Jon how can you not automatically pen the Dodgers in for worst off season? That slight to your best friend alone would seem worthy, the loss of Wolf merely icing on the “worst” cake.
Other teams certainly merit consideration. It seemed consensus opinion that all the San Francisco Giants needed to do was add a viable middle-of-the-order slugger yet the closest they could come to that was an offer to Adam LaRoche which he spurned for a lot less money and one less year from Arizona. Scandalous! But not to you Jon. The Cleveland Indians? Did they do anything? Anything at all? The Los Angeles Angels? I give you credit for at least coming clean and professing your “love” for them in your first sentence of their appraisal. But losing John Lackey, replacing him with no one, and losing Chone Figgins and replacing him with the untested Brandon Wood was apparently not enough to quash your undying love.
Did the New York Mets have a good off season? Not in my opinion, no. Did they have the worst off season in Major League Baseball? Absolutely not. But good for you Jon, you know where the biggest cow is and how to milk it.
121 comments
mrose
2/3/2010-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
Bravo..
I hate Jon Heyman
ceetar
2/3/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
Have you noticed Jon Heyman seems to preface every trade with “I like this trade for them.” ?
The Mets improved this offseason. Whether it’s enough is yet to be determined..it’s also not over.
QnsNative718
2/3/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
Great write up, Grave.
metsfan4decades
2/3/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
You go, Grave.
Heyman is not as connected as he would like to believe he is. I know I’ve said this before but I remember the Winter Meetings from ’08. Heyman was on around noon towards the end of the week saying the Mets were done. Not 4 hours later, they’re announcing a 3 team deal to acquire Putz.
I really wanted them to interview Heyman again after that trade to see how he back peddled off that one. Never happened though.
I think he’s just too big for his britches now, if you get my drift. Tool…..
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Grave I swear you are one of the best things this blog has. Your writing from day 1 has been nothing less than awesome. I can go on and on but I just want to say that surgical procedure you performed on Heyman is one of the best I have seen on this or any blog ever. Great article you outdid yourself congrats.
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Very nicely done.
In an offseason where the Mets acquired arguably the third best free agent, it is difficult to consider their offseason the absolute worst. You really must ignore that they added Jason Bay’s 30 HR and 100RBI bat in order to make such a conclusion.
That said, there’s quite a bit of work left to do.
trs86
2/3/2010-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Some of that, I have come to the realization, may not occur before the season starts.
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
Unfortunately, that seems to be the case. Hopefully, the players are not as doom and gloom as fans and the media. And hopefully a hot start doesn’t fool Omar into thinking nothing else needs to be done.
If I were Jerry, I’d play the us v. the world card right now.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. In fact I would not mind at all if they did just that in the media. Came out and said, we are not fools. “We hear about all the garbage you have came up with and we are here to tell you screw you and watch this.”
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
So perhaps we both agree with Darryl that the team needs some attitude?
To me, the guy who needs to say this is David Wright. He’s the only one could set that type of tone for the team, especially given his usually very calm and calculated demeanor with the press.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
VERY True. I would say Johan but it’s hard for that guy to be a pitcher. Although, a pitcher has led before.
stickguy
2/3/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
If you are going to dock for the changes not made, at least give credit for trading Wilson Valdez for Jose Reyes. That has to be the steal of the off season!
ceetar
2/3/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
What about Tim Redding for Johan Santana?
trs86
2/3/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Everyone also keeps saying that we replaced Delgado’s numbers with Bay. That’s not entirely true. We replaced an unhealthy 1B and bad LF with a healthy 1B and decent (in my opinion good) LF that plays everyday.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
Well the Mets of 2007 and 2008 offensively got a lot of their power from 1st with Delgado so now with no more Delgado Bay should help ease that loss. In LF the 2007 and 2008 mostly had a Alou, Tatis or Chavez out there followed by a Murphy that evenetually showed he was no Left Fielder.
Now in 2009 with all the injuries and a aging Sheffield in LF the Mets needed to find an everyday LF. Also with a Tatis that just could not handle 1st when Delgado went down and the Mets desperate put Murphy at 1st and the kid actually to the surprise of many held his own.
Now in 2010 the loss of Delgado and the hole that was LF is lessened with the combination of Bay and Murphy.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
But in 2007, injured Delgado and 2009 injured Delgado, 2008 was actually a surprise. I hope now that the age and health of Bay will play a role.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
I think everyone remembers how Delgado turned it on after Willie got fired in 2008 to the surprise of many myself included.
The point is that the issue still remained on how to replace the loss of Delgado’s power especially in the new Citi Fields and Bay was brought in to help fill that void and to give the team a reliable everyday left fielder rather than the parade of 9 left fielder we had last year.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
No doubt. But to me Bay does not just replace Delgado, he upgrades it.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Thats iffy!
Gado in his best two and
healthy seasons here
went 38/115
and was not only clutch
BUT our best player in the
playoffs.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
True but here is what you said: In his best 2 and healthy seasons.
I am hopping that won’t be an issue anymore. Also, my point above included the defensive part as well. Bay and Murphy (at 1B) is much better than Murphy and Delagdo.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
if you are comparing him to the current Delgado yes but if your comparing him to the 38hr 115 rbi Delgado of 2008 which is what many were suggesting I don’t see how Bay is an upgrade.
Is a 2010 Bay/Murphy combo better than a 2008 Delgado/Tatis or Delgado/Chavez combo? Time will tell.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I see your point.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry, I fell out of my chair when I read “I see our point”. I’ll try to hold on with 2 hands next time.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
I was at the infamous “Delgado curtain call” game when after being booed for months he hit a key HR and the crowd stood and cheered for him to come out and he refused. I was in the 2nd row of the UD behind home plate and could see into the dugout, Wright was practically begging and pulling him up but he refused.
I loved him, I loved the whole notebook thing he did, but his time is past.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! I just read where Murphy picked up the notebook
thing from him though.
Seems like that could only be a positive.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
I did not know that about Murphy and the notebook. Good news.
trs86
2/3/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
Great job Grave. I mentioned in the previous thread that in my opinion the Cubs had all the same reasons as the Mets to improve, did a worse job and nothing is said.
QnsNative718
2/3/2010-3:01pm at 3:01 pm (UTC -4)
I see where Heyman is coming from. He expects the Mets to be the Yankees for the simple reason that they play in NY and bode the highest payroll in the NL (except for this yr). After the collapses and the NIGHTMARE that was 2009, it can be curious to some as to how unmotivated this team was to WINNING. In 2008, the Yankees missed the playoffs. UNACCEPTABLE for them. What happened that offseason? They went out and completely dominated the 2009 season.
Joel Pineiro and Bengie are not saviors by any margin, but they are considerable upgrades to what we have now. CONSIDERABLE. I understand Pineiro’s inconsistency, but by last yr’s standards, he would have been a great addition. Maine, Ollie, Pelfrey = Hope, If, and Maybe. Thats not good enough for a horrible 2009 season.
Molina, though he’s up there in age, would have been a significant upgrade to Santos and Blanco. A good bat at the bottom of the lineup. You guys remember what the bottom of our lineup looked like last yr? Yikes..
trs86
2/3/2010-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
I see what you are saying but those guys the Yankees got were not question marks like these guys. It’s easy to go out and sign Tex, CC and AJ. It’s a lot harder to overpay Pineiro, Marquis, Molina.
QnsNative718
2/3/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
I understand a team cant show panic and overspend, but the Mets are not an ordinary team. Just look at the past few seasons. Pure anguish. I’m proabably a little bias, but I dont think any fans had it as bad as we did. (Dont mention Pirates/Royals fans. They go into every year KNOWING they’re a small market team with small market pockets) I just wouldve thought Mets FO wouldve said “enough is enough” and not settle for mediocrity. You want to win? That costs a little more $$$.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
True I just don’t think you spend it mediocre guys like Pineiro, Molina, Castillo and Perez.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with what you’re saying here TRS. The thing we have gone over rather thoroughly that we disagree on is how John Lackey fits into this conversation. But that aspect aside, I am with you on the idea that overspending on Tex CC & to a lesser extent AJ is vastly different than doing so on Pineiro and Molina and their ilk.
If last season’s free agents were available this year Mets fans would have a far greater excuse/reason to howl IMO.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Last year I wanted Delgado dumped and his and Wagner’s money spent on Tex. Imagine if that could have happened. Same thing could be said if we had done that for CC. Hindsight.
Regardless, I think I am on to something with comparing Castillo and Perez to Pineiro and Molina.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
It may have been nice BUT theres a
long way to go yet on Tex’s contract
and now past the ‘roid era,we’ll
see how good that deal looks in a few
yrs.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
True, but to me those first 4-5 years would have paid for the end.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe,I guess
BUT last yr would have been wasted
anyway…..
AND if Castillo had bumped into him in the clubhouse and
put the ki-bosh on him,
he may have blown out a
knee.
Then we would have lost a couple yrs on the deal.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
True, I think it was Wanny who said that in that long of a deal you expect to lose a season or two. You just have to determine is the player still worth it. Kind of like what the Mets did with Pedro and Beltran (hopefully not Johan).
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I don’t think in this day and age,past the roids era
you can be giving guys
7,8&10 year
deals….
Unless you’re the yankees that
is. Too much of a risk.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Mes think Heyman RIDES the short bus!
trs86
2/3/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, it was hard when I posted this for Grave not to include a few random pics of Heyman and his short bus.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for the graphic you did include, it was exactly what I had in my mind which you apparently read since I never mentioned it. You know my style well.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t know how hard it was for me not to go the other way. Glad I did not. If it had my name attached to it, I am not sure I would have played it safe.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you, I wrote that originally but removed it due to not wanting to get sidetracked in a debate about the political correctness of it. But in the comments it works for me.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
To my point to Queens, I had not really thought about this that much.
However, Omar’s two worst signings were Castillo and Perez.
How much different (other than total amount due to years but we don’t know how much they would have cost for the Mets anyway) would the Mets signing Pineiro and Molina be?
Perez signed after 2 decent years. Pineiro signed after 1 decent year.
Aging 2B (who often don’t age well)Castillo signed because the Mets needed a 2B. Aging catcher signed because they needed a C.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
I’m almost as happy with not signing Molina as I am WITH
signing Bay… AND I really like Bay.
I think Molina on a 2 or 3 yr deal would have ended worse
for us than Alou and Castillo. Maybe not as bad as Ollie
but in that general area.
Too me, NOT signing Molina is a plus for Omar.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. And although in a moment of weakness I was for both, I think that was due more to the need to make a move. Now I realize the error of my ways.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, well don’t feel bad. I’ve been anti-Molina since the begin of the off-season
and wasn’t ripped off on Piniero either
BUT when the signing of both looked like
I may well happen, I convinced myself
maybe we could squeeze a big 2010 out of
them before their contracts become a
nightmare for us AND with everyone else back, maybe that could put us over the top.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, it’s funny I was very anti-Molina but that is also when I turned. When it seemed like it was going to happen no matter what. I predicted Vlad and Molina which were typical Omar moves. To me this shows that either Omar is not in charge or he has learned his lesson.
fongy2
2/3/2010-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
Likely both BUT I think its
something like three quarters not in charge.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
You may be right. To me this even started last off-season. (Perez aside). Everyone talked about how his boys were Manny and Hudson. Neither came. This year, Molina, Vlad and Hudson…
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
Great, great job, as usual.
Some folks don’t like it when I say what a complete joke Heyman and his “insider knowledge” are, but it is, unquestionably, the truth.
The Soriano thing is exhibit 129,364 of the fact that the guy does not know the game that thoroughly, does not do his homework, and is a truly lazy guy who does not respect himself or his employers, let alone the game.
Grave, the theme of NY being the cow which keeps on giving milk is precisely what I have been trying to hammer away at during this entire ridiculous offseason…..the “contest”…the Mets having the worst offseason…..Molina about to sign….Olney’s Mets don’t-have-the-money-for-Torrealba story….trade Johan for prospects….and on and on and on….
ALL of it utterly meaningless and only remotely–if that–related to reality.
Thanks for the well-written, well-conceived, and extremely necessary piece here my friend.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
I keep coming back to the idea that if the Mets had caved to Pineiro and Molina then we would not have been having this discussion. Seriously, an off-season hinged on those two?
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
Too much!
NOT getting Pineiro was almost as good of a move as signing Bay.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
+1
QnsNative718
2/3/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Im a star. Im a star, Imma star, Imma star. Im a big, bright shining star.
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
I’m ready to shoot the scene. I want to shoot the scene. I’m fine. … I want to ****! It’s my big ****! So everybody get ready ******’ now!
QnsNative718
2/3/2010-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
Lmao.. Missed you, buddy.
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-4:30pm at 4:30 pm (UTC -4)
Right back at ya Qns!
You ARE the King of Dirk!
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
wow queens !! welcome back !!!
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
Kong both consciously and subconsciously I learned the true depth of the whole cow/milk thing from you so thank you.
And to all of you who are dispensing praise for this piece in your comments above I would like to say two things:
1- I said the Angels replaced John Lackey with “nothing” as an editorial comment, I know they replaced him in their rotation with Pineiro; and
2- It was from conversing/debating/disagreeing with you all first at MB and then here that I learned if I was going to say something I had better be prepared to back it up. Sometimes I still forget it (“Nelson Figueroa is just as good as Jason Marquis except for opportunity”) but mostly it’s there. So if I truly deserve credit for a thoughtful post, you guys deserve credit as well for whipping me into shape. Thank you.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, I know what you mean. Just ask Wanny who is still working hard on me. He must see potential.
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
“Continuous effort – not strength or intelligence – is the key to unlocking our potential.”
-Winston Churchill
trs86
2/3/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
“It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.” Abe
Crap!
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
LOL.
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
Grave, that makes me feel really good bro….and this was a great piece in all ways.
On the occasions when I DO show restraint, well, I learned that from you!
trs86
2/3/2010-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
And the hopeless arguing the same point for days you got from me right? Please give me some credit too.
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!!
Oh man, if we knew each other in person, you would realize that I have been this way since maybe before you were even BORN!
But you do help keep it alive!
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
By the way I just checked and they’ve finally edited his piece to say “Alfonso Soriano.” I don’t think we can take credit for that though I’d love to.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, Heyman was prob. scanning Sportsypder and came across a piece that he just assumed agreed with him like always. I bet he crapped his pants when a Mets blog went against the trend.
Kingman 26
2/3/2010-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Nah, some 15-year old intern probably noticed it….
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
eli from brooklyn has been banned by him lol
joed1
2/3/2010-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
Hi guys!
First off, great job for pointing out the Beltran injury as part of the case Heyman made for giving the Mets the nod for the worst off season. I absolutely detest how he consistently needles the Mets especially via Twitter when they were so instrumental in accelerating his success and popularity, as you mentioned in this post.
My big problem with the Mets and their woeful offseason cannot be determined in a head to head comparison with other teams to determine who did well and who didn’t.
The reason I believe the Mets had a terrible offseason was because they failed to address the needs they went out of their way to identify when last season ended.
It was the Mets who said they would sign a starting catcher because Warthen and Manuel blamed Omir and Schneider for the pitching woes and the league leading walks.
It was Wilpon and Minaya who went on air on WFAN and SNY and made clear that securing a #2 starting pitcher would be the team’s top priority. They repeated that mantra again shortly before the winter meetings and yet again on the day they flew home after the WM.
Using the standards and litmus test the Mets themselves established for their off season, you have no choice but to consider it a massive and epic fail solely on the evidence that neither a starting catcher or starting pitcher was added.
How can they rip into Omir Santos one day, and then sing his praises after being left at the altar by Bengie Molina?
How can you go on WFAN and admit that you overestimated Pelfrey’s ability to grow into the role as the #2 pitcher in 2009, admit that you need to add a number pitcher, and then show up empty handed?
The Bay addition was great, but certainly not a need they even admitted to in October and November. They said repeatedly that they were confident in Angel Pagan (I was also confident in him) as the everyday leftfielder and even chirped about the virtues of Chris Carter. The GMJ acquisition virtually guarantees CC will not make the team.
Hauling in a boatload of reclamation products and signing Omar’s old cronies Tatis and Cora might net a nice surprise or two, but certainly cant be deemed an upgrade of any kind.
Anyhow, I just wanted to weigh in and share some of my own thoughts on this subject, and keep up the great job here at TRDMB!
trs86
2/3/2010-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
Great points and I agree. Where I would guess we disagree on is the fact that in my opinion these upgrades were either not available or not worth the inflated contracts received.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
Hey Joe read your “A Tough Assessment Of The Mets Offseason?” post. Well said indeed and thanks for stopping in and sharing you know you are always welcome here.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
You know, I have to give him credit. I think he expressed what you have been trying to all off-season and I actually get it.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
yeah i wish i was as articulate – damn and i was a journalism major ( hangs head in shame )
ceetar
2/3/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
I remember them saying pitching, but not #2 pitching. I’m sticking to my belief that Omar’s working on a trade prior to the season (and I think something will happen during Spring as well). I assume they’ll get a pitcher.
I don’t really know what’s up with the Catching situation. Give the options right now I’d jsut go with Thole.
prismo
2/3/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for checking this out Joe!
Now that you’ve explained your point of view, I understand where you’re coming from.
I guess it depends on your definition of “worst” offseason. I prefer a more objective view – looking at which team improved the least (or worsened the most), without considering pre-offseason expections.
I suppose with the bar set as high as Omar and the Wilpons set it, it truly was a massive fail. But really…they set the bar too high in the first place. How were they going to get a true number 2 starter, a power threat, and a decent starting catcher in this cruddy free agency period? There just weren’t enough good players to go around.
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
A very nice rebuttal. Heyman wishes this was how he wrote his piece in the first place.
And I think you’ve identified the Mets biggest offseason failure — the inability to keep the front office’s collective mouth shut. They absolutely set themselves up for failure and potentially alienated their own players in the process.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for your thoughts Joe. I had read your piece at Mets Merized Online and was actually a bit surprised considering what I perceive to be your general optimism regarding the team.
I think nothing you said above is untrue. But I ultimately agree with what my colleague TRS is getting at with his reply here. Aside from John Lackey, that # 2 pitcher was not available via FA. Was that pitcher available by trade? That possibility I cannot dismiss. But it is also possible that that pitcher simply was not available by trade, or that his cost was deemed prohibitive.
For the catcher, while I happen to agree with their initial negative assessment of Santos, I don’t feel it wise as I said in the piece to sign Molina at all. Early in the off season I lobbied heavily for Greg Zaun in fact, to pair with Thole. I like Blanco as a substitute and remain hopeful that Thole will make the team if not out of ST than shortly thereafter force his way onto it.
So I think on many points I agree with you, especially the Mets foolish public proclamations of stated goals they then didn’t fill. But IMO that’s not a reason to give them the “worst” off season title, especially when the people available through free agency with IMO the exception of Lackey were not certain enough upgrades.
ceetar
2/3/2010-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
hmm, how about this? I know Thole’s biggest knock is that he’s still learning catching. Well, some of that he can do in the offseason can’t he? Can’t he study tape of Santana and Maine and Pelfrey and Perez and at least get a feel for their pitching styles? I’m 99% sure the Mets haven’t asked him to do this, and I’m not even sure the tapes are available outside of a MLB clubhouse.
Of all the catchers on the team Thole would be my first choice to start. Have Blanco help/platoon to start with and I can’t see how it could hurt to develop a repoirte with the pitchers. Maybe they don’t mesh well in April, but by September he knows them well.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
Not only can he learn that through off season study, but with solid coaching and cooperation from the pitchers he can learn during spring training as well.
IMO it would be ideal if Thole makes the team as primary catcher with Blanco his “coach” and back up, and probably given their history Blanco will also be Santana’s “personal” catcher.
The potential negative is if he fails to learn quickly, young still forming pitchers like Maine/Perez/Pelfrey and the others have no one to lean on with Thole behind the plate.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
fact of the matter is that our 7,8,9 part of the line up will be a black hole like last year if the order is santos, slappy, pitcher
ceetar
2/3/2010-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
Which is why it should be Murphy, Thole, Santana. That’s a pretty good 7,8,9 in my opinion.
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
Potentially.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
hey ceetar this is the most ive seen you on in quite sometime honestly i believe thole needs one more season in aaa i am for signing barajas i feel murph is better in the 2 hole cuz he will get more fastballs – and he rakes with risp slappy was utilized as more as a sacrifice bunt machine in the 2 hole – which i found to be maddening
trs86
2/3/2010-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
Shhh, you are going to mess up my secret acquisition.
ceetar
2/3/2010-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
I’m fine with them signing Barajas, I’m just not real high on Santos. Just saying if they stay as is.
Yeah, trs86 mentioned me in a comment and it got flagged by google alerts and emailed me, so I started checking here again.
(So be weary of badmouthing me across the Internet! Google is watching!)
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
lol so u r he who who must not be named
joed1
2/3/2010-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
I think much of the angst we have all experience this offseason was the direct result of not meeting the expectations that the Mets outlined. If the Mets were a normal organization, or even acted like they did when Omar first got here, they would approach the offseason in stealth mode and not by making it so easy for the media to call them out on their missteps.
I agree that after Lackey, the pickings were slim, but because the Mets were so emphatic in their quest to upgrade the rotation, it made the fan base believe that maybe a trade was forthcoming and so they were tied to rumors regarding Halladay and most recently Arroyo.
Additionally, I’m convinced that someone in the organization was leaking the constant rumors that they were targeting the next best pitcher available after one by one each free agent signed with another team. Within minutes after one pitcher signed, Cerrone already had the next volley of posts on the Mets new target. It was like the Chinese Water Torture.
As soon as Pineiro signed, we predicted in our chat that evening that by the next morning Cerrone would have a post that the Mets were targeting Jon Garland. An hour later we couldn’t contain our laughter as there it was.
If and when they ever get rid of Omar, I hope these team sources that have only contributed to this bad image problem the Mets have, get booted along with Omar. At some point in mid 2009, the Mets made the decision to telegraph moves and gauge the reaction before fully committing. I know of no other organization that operates in this manner.
This all comes down to the Wilpon’s sudden realization that they could no longer trust Omar with the keys to the kingdom, but at the same time didn’t want to eat the remaining 3 years on his extension. A team that was already strife with miscommunication just got exponentially worse as 3-4 more people were added to the decision making process and one of them obviously enjoys leaking information on the Mets thinking.
The Mets now have too many cooks in the kitchen right now and none of them are particularly good, especially Jeff.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
i agree joe – the best metaphor that i can use is when i was 6 i was told i was getting a melennium falcon for my birthday – you remember the large one , well i told my friends i was getting that – but instead i got the miniture one and i was embarrased and felt betrayed – because my parents built up my hopes and made me feel like a fool – i feel jeff and omar did the same thing when the went on mikes show
joed1
2/3/2010-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
Too bad they didnt realize that the only reason we wanted the big M-Falcon is because you were able to put in the dozens of figures we that we owned. How else could you plan the ovethrow that had Vader sitting in the pilots seat? lol
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
yeah having chewbaca sitting on the radar dish just looked plain wrong ! lol
trs86
2/3/2010-10:54pm at 10:54 pm (UTC -4)
True, but your parents most likely could not afford to buy the large one and get you everything else you needed or realized they were overpaying for a large piece of plastic that would break by Easter.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
I try to imagine if the Mets came out a week or 2 after the season and said they felt the current rotation based on 2007 and 2008 is good enough so while we are always looking we feel we can contend in 2010 with the guys we have in the rotation.
Would that had made any difference in the expectations fans had this offseason? I tend to think it wouldn’t especially after watching the Phillies trade for Halladay using Cliff Lee a player they traded for last season. All the while watching what felt like the entire NL East make moves to depending on your view improve themselves.
joed1
2/3/2010-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
That’s a good question. I think that while half of us may not have agreed with that estimation, we all would have had a fair expectation of what lied in store for us. Any addition would have been treated more optimistically because the bar wasn’t set very high to begin with. But I believe that’s how most of the better organizations operate. To hear Brian Cashman speak of his offseason after the World Series, you would have thought they finished in last place. Same with Amaro in Philly.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-5:00pm at 5:00 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t argue with you Joe. Within the framework you established you make valid arguments why the Mets off season would be called an epic fail. Within whatever loose framework Heyman established he made poor easily batted aside arguments.
So take heart, IMO you’re much better at what you do than he is.
I will add just one caveat. It is certainly fair to judge the Mets off season harshly in it’s own right based on what pronouncements the FO made to the media at the outset.
But we likely do not know how that compares if we chose to compare it to other teams. Even with the internet it is a daunting task to monitor the FO of 30 teams. I can only say that I saw the Dodgers GM on “The Dan Patrick Show” at the outset of the off season and he stated very specifically that his number 1 priority was to acquire a front end of the rotation starting pitcher, and that Lackey specifically was his # 1 target. We all know how that ended up.
So if someone the equivalent of you in the Dodgers market were writing a similar piece as yours today he might come to a similar conclusion.
trs86
2/3/2010-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
Only thing is I am not sure how many of those rumors of what the Mets were wanting to do were actually coming from the Mets.
trs86
2/3/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
Later guys, gotta go coach some basketball.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
wow grave tell us how you really feel. yes we know heyman is a biased shill , but he makes a solid point about the depth at catcher – i agree i didn’t want pinero – but i wanted the starting pitching upgraded – but who would be the one kicked out of the rotation ? pelf ? nope – Ollie – mets habe 24 million reasons not to do that . Maine – i would hope not – he is the one whi i believe will have a break out year – lets face it the mets were hoping for someone to fall in their laps – it didnt happen so they will hope that this team in competative and look towards next season.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
I have said this before but I’ll say it again here. I think it was the great British poet Mick Jagger who said:
“You can’t always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.”
So I guess the question remains: are the Mets trying?
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
hard to say – i kinda have in the back of my mind that wilpon wants the team to tank – thinking the fans will blame omar . Jeff does come across as detached and off base with this stuff
wannybackstra
2/3/2010-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, but he’s very much attached to daddy’s teet, which is probably the only way he would be able to survive in the business world.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
yeah going to wharton and michigan certainly didnt help him lol – honestly it wouldnt surprise be if m donald grant was his real biological father lol
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-4:36pm at 4:36 pm (UTC -4)
Wow JoeD, Ceetar, Qnsnative718 all commenting in the same thread. Who’s next dentulous and the thestache17?
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
queens native!!! where !!???
ceetar
2/3/2010-4:51pm at 4:51 pm (UTC -4)
sorta unrelatedly, you guys intending to use/return to the realdirtydugout irc room?
Also, FIREWORKS NIGHT returns!
prismo
2/3/2010-4:53pm at 4:53 pm (UTC -4)
They better. The IRC room (minus TKFJ) was awesome during the season.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
i should be there – fire works night? is that when johan’s arm explodes
kidding ! kidding – what are you looking att me like that for !! its a joke !!!
ceetar
2/3/2010-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
In my opinion, Twitter has replaced in-game chat rooms, but the room is always there anyway. I’ve been in it since the season ended..
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
People higher up the food chain here than I will have to tell you what the future has in store for the dirty dugout. I can only say that the idea of having it open during the off season came up and was dismissed due to a lack of ability to monitor what was going on within.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-5:00pm at 5:00 pm (UTC -4)
Good question I haven’t heard from Dirty or TRS on that yet I know I read TRS was looking into that wibiya toolbar that HotFoot and MC’s blog was using especially the chatroom functionality but he was not too excited about it.
I have always been a fan of the web based chatroom so I hope they decide to still use it this season. I am a fan of http://www.flasherize.com/ but the license is $9.00 and don’t know if they want to spend money on something like that.
rustyjr
2/3/2010-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
it would be nice
metsfan4decades
2/3/2010-5:58pm at 5:58 pm (UTC -4)
I certainly hope the Real Dirty Dugout returns. I really enjoyed that on game nights.
trs86
2/3/2010-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Easy guys, it is in the works but there are a lot of BIG changes coming.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-5:32pm at 5:32 pm (UTC -4)
How come Grave’s post didn’t make it to Sportspyder?
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-5:34pm at 5:34 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not sure. Usually if we include the word “Mets” in the post, AND tag the post “New York Mets” it makes it and we did both those things. One of the internet’s mysteries.
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-5:35pm at 5:35 pm (UTC -4)
Heyman must of got wind and put the kibosh to your post.
GravediggerHebner
2/3/2010-5:38pm at 5:38 pm (UTC -4)
He threatened to take his business to “sportscaterpyllar.”
Mr North Jersey
2/3/2010-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
trs86
2/3/2010-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, that usually does not matter for my stories. Perhaps something was up there with the site?