Well there are only eleven days until pitchers and catchers report to Port St Lucie for spring training. I have to admit that I am looking forward to it, because it means that we should be out of this arctic chill within a month. But this is the first time in possibly six years that I am not overly excited about this team. Don’t get me wrong I will be at some games this year ( I couldn’t commit to a Saturday Plus plan this year) , and I will root hard for my team. It just seems like this year above any of the last five seemed -aside from the Jason Bay signing – to be littered with reclamation projects and scrap heap pick ups. Before you call me a spoiled Mets fan, just remember I have been a fan for almost 40 years. I lived through the time when Shea Stadium was a monument to futility in the late ’70′s to early ’80′s. I lived through the George Bamberger and Art ” Battling” Howe eras. I have seen both the good times and the bad. But I saw this off season as a bait & switch. We were promised by ownership an aggressive off season where top notch talent would be imported and the flotsam and Jetsam within the coaching staff, training staff, and players would be thrown out like yesterdays garbage. Well last that I checked the entire training staff is still here, two coaches who didn’t really have much bearing on the teams problems last season were dismissed while Dan Warthen and Razor Shines were retained ( still scratching my head on that one) and we retained the services of Alex Cora, Elmer Dessens and Fernando Tatis.Yes we signed both Tatis and Dessens at discounts , but how can you rationalize giving Alex Cora – a back up a two million dollar contract , while the market dictates that a back up infielder should be paid less than that! Look I understand that this off seasons free agent class was less than desired, and I am sure that if deals were to be made they would have been consummated. But please don’t sell the fans on a productive off-season – and then fail to deliver . I read Hall Of Fame writer Murray Chass’ column this week, and aside from some speculation, I had to believe most off what he wrote to be true. And if Jeff Wilpon is the puppet master behind curtain, than this organization will be as doomed as when M. Donald Grant was running this franchise. Look we won’t know until the middle of May what kind of team we will have here. Maybe they will resort back to their ’06 form , or maybe we will see a slightly better product that was ion the field last season. I am hoping for ’06.
Â
                                                                                    
  
                                                                                     ” Is Jeffy Boy the second coming of M. Donald Grant?
And Now it’s time for the INFAMY !!!!
Happy Birthday wishes go out to reserve outfielder from the ’70′s -Benny Ayala (1951) .
Decent pitcher for the early ’80′s Mets , Charlie Puleo is 55 (1955) .Charlie’s biggest contribution to the Mets was being one of the players sent to the Cincinnati Reds for Tom Seaver.
The man who made the second most famous catch in Mets history – Endy Chavez is 32 (1978) . We miss you Endy !!
New York Mets traded pitchers Hank Webb and Richard Sander to the Los Angeles Dodgers for shortstop prospect Rick Auerbach on February 7, 1977.
Mickey Lolich announced his retirement on February 7, 1977. Funny thing is Loilich only retired from being a Met ( he hated being a Met !) – He signed the next year with the San Diego Padres, pitching two seasons for them.
New York Mets released utility infielder Ross Jones on February 7, 1986. Ross was the other player along with future Mets pitching great Sid Fernandez that was traded to the Mets for utility infielder Bob Bailor and pitcher Carlos Diaz
New York Mets claimed utility infielder ,David Lamb on waivers from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays on February 7, 2000.
And while you are watching the Super Bowl tonight , just remember there are just 57 days until the Mets open the 2010 season against the Florida Marlins at Citi Field.
58 comments
GravediggerHebner
2/7/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
I feel the biggest mistake of the off season was the unnecessary appearance on the Mike’d Up radio show by Minaya & Wilpon. Had they not done that and laid out a plan they were unable or unwilling to execute, we wouldn’t feel betrayed, we’d simply have what we have.
I too feel Cora is overpaid but I am able to temper my fury by contemplating how he might possibly be able to contribute being used less on the field and having working thumbs in those instances when he is used.
As far as Lolich goes, if one hates being a Met could there be a better place to recover than San Diego? Anonymity, no expectations, nice weather. Sounds great if you don’t give a hoot about winning or passion in sport.
gonzowill
2/7/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Rusty, you nailed the off-season. “Bait and switch” is exactly how I too feel about what ownership has done.
stickguy
2/7/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
I actually think that jeffy might not be running the show, based on the happenings this off season.
Unless they turned off the $$ spigot (entirely possible), usually if you get an owner meddelign, you end up with more signings (and dumb contracts),right? Just telling the GM he can’t spend any money IMO isn’t taking over and running the show, it is doing their job (assuming, of course, they dont have money to spend).
The owner is supposed to set the budget, and I guess define the vision (based on recommendations from the BB people), then turn over the execution to the GM and FO staff. THe vision would be go for broke this year, build for the future, or something in between.
Now, if Jeffy is actually picking the players, that is a problem!
As Rusty said, the bigger issue isn’t the plan (since it is enitrely up to them what they think it should be), it was going public with grand statements about no budget and doing anything needed to win (although did they specify winning this year?
Mr North Jersey
2/7/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
“Did they specify winning this year?” Your just joking around right?
Mr North Jersey
2/7/2010-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Rusty looks like your not the only one drawing comparisons between the Wilpons and M. Donald Grant.
http://www.kranepoolsociety.com/2010/02/07/deliver-us-from-evil-fred-wilpon/
rustyjr
2/7/2010-1:45pm at 1:45 pm (UTC -4)
well i had it first lol !! honestly i don’t want to believe this as being the case – i hope that we ride on to glory this season – but the team is already behind the 8 ball with beltran down and to be quite frank i think that we are putting to much hope on ollie perez and whoever the # 5 starter will be
rustyjr
2/7/2010-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
although i cant stand Joel Sherman i read this on his blog
When I asked Minaya exactly this, he initially hesitated and said, “I could see how someone could see it that way.†But then he quickly shifted into good-soldier mode and said, “We checked in on some of those guys, but we just did not get them.â€
But why? How could the Mets have encountered bargains for players they wanted and not ended up with a single one; outbid instead by, among others, the Brewers and Padres? San Diego officials actually were stunned the Mets did not jump on Garland at these prices.
Now we could argue if it is smart to crave players such as Molina with his low on-base percentage or Garland with his hardly overwhelming stuff. But that is a different discussion. This is about a GM wanting players, the prices for those players dropping to reasonable rates, and the Mets signing none of those players.
Jeff Wilpon declined a request to discuss the current state of the team, but he has insisted in the past that the Madoff debacle is not impacting the day-to-day operations and that Minaya
is making the baseball decisions. But officials from other teams and agents paint a different picture.
One AL official said the Mets do have money worries tied to Madoff. It is not that they lost in the Ponzi scheme, but that the government is seeking to recover funds from those who took out profits over the years as the Wilpons likely did.
“Is that $20 million, $100 million, $200 million?†the AL official asked. “If it is in the hundreds of millions and they actually have to pay that back, what does that mean for them even owning the team long-term?â€
Nevertheless, Mets officials insist Madoff is never a factor in internal discussions, that the Wilpon family was well diversified and that the family will own the team for a long time. They point to the signing of Jason Bay (four years, $66 million) as a symbol of business as normal, with the team still expecting one of the majors’ top payrolls.
But even under that scenario, one veteran agent asked, “How can you have that payroll and still not have a starting catcher or first baseman, a second baseman you hate and no legitimate starters after Johan?â€
Which leads back to the Mets essentially staying in neutral after the Bay signing. They refused to adjust offers upward to land Molina or Pineiro.
Is it because the Mets wanted to pretend to their fans that they were going after players while knowing they were offering too little to get them?
Is it that ownership emphasized not overpaying even slightly after the Bay signing rather than actually getting deals done?
Is it that the Mets are too comfortable finishing second in negotiations, taking more gratification from making an offer that, say, Bud Selig will appreciate for its conservative nature rather than actually winning for the player?
Or has the Mets’ disarray on matters such as health care for players become such a turnoff that they no longer are a destination place, so that a Pineiro may simply be getting the Mets to bid so he could shop it elsewhere; kind of an anywhere-but-Flushing philosophy?
Whatever the correct answers, the problems at Citi Field are bigger than Omar Minaya’s job title
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/mets_failure_to_sign_bargain_MPzk1Yr9I4OdLmW7j6FcOL#ixzz0esSq54rn
mind you i am happy the mets didn’t get either molina or pinero but the fact that it seems like they would stick their toe in the water and then immediately pull it out when the water was luke warm I find disturbing – but they ” have a plan ” and i hope that their plan works for all of our sakes
GravediggerHebner
2/7/2010-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
When almost every sentence ends in a question mark, you know the reporter in question must be employed by Rupert Murdoch.
I think many of the same issues were presented a couple of days ago by Murray Chass, and while the next statement may very well reflect my own biases more than anything else, while I didn’t like what I read from either Sherman here or Chass there, I felt less unclean hearing it from Chass.
http://www.murraychass.com/?p=1503
trs86
2/7/2010-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
As far as the damning comment of we like you but we have to deal with this guy first, what team besides the Yankees DOESN’T do that? Think about even recently. Why did the Angels not sign Pineiro right away? Most likely he was not their first choice. Why didn’t the Mets sign Molina right off? Because they set a value for him and would not go over it because there was no market other than them at that price. Molina chose to again buck that system and end up with less. Perhaps even Jason Bay had to wait on the Mets to rule out Lackey or Holliday. Just seems to be like normal business to me.
trs86
2/7/2010-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
Hey at least the 2nd to last paragraph I agree with.
“Maybe they don’t think the available talent was worth extravagant spending. Maybe they’re saving their money until next year when more attractive free agents could be available. That’s what the Yankees did on passing on Santana two years ago and waiting instead to sign Sabathia and Burnett. The result was the World Series championship.”
trs86
2/7/2010-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
As pointed out by one of our readers, the Mets don’t have much money coming off the books after this year and have a lot of raises to the ones we have. Why waste money on mediocre guys just to please some antsy fans?
rustyjr
2/7/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
but you have to admit the mets made a credibility gap between them and their fans . fans look at the way the yanks run their organization , eat their errors and always try to better themselves everyyear – I agree with your point about not that many great pitchers on the market but why re-sign cora at 2 mil when you could have an offerman for less than that or a better outfielder than gmj for about the same or slightly less money ? truth be told is that the payroll is around 15 mil less than it was last year im not saying to sign mediocre free agents but this feels like the early part of last decade when they bid just enough to lose out on a player – and they seemed content with that – ive been saying this for most of the off season – im sorry but i am dishartened by this hot stove period – i guess we can agree to disagree on that but to give the team a b minus i think is crazy c- would be more apt imo – and both of us are entitled to our opinions – i hope you are right one though instead of me
rustyjr
2/7/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
the mets are a major market team – they have their own network, stadium naming rights , a cash cow of a new stadium and they are worried abot increases in payroll? come on man – like i said 100 times before i agree that for the most part this free agent class was crap but come on you have to walk the walk if youre going to talk the talk and i feel they blew alot of hot air up our heiies this off season
stickguy
2/7/2010-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
Le Grande, do you feel the Mets aren’t good enough to compete for the WS this year, as they stand? I know that many posters on the various sites don’t think so.
And realistically, if you are in the No camp, do you think that Pinera and Molina were enough to make the difference?
Well, if no again, maybe the Mets felt the same, and made the tough call not to waste the money.
General concensus seems to be they need a lot to break right with the returning cast of characters for them to be in the playoffs, so maybe the FO just decided to see how that happens, and not bother to add guys like this for multiple years that they were going to be stuck with in 2011?
trs86
2/7/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
Eh…
trs86
2/7/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
I just completely disagree. All that I asked for is that they tried to the best of their abilities to improve this team while not doing any damage to the future of this team. I have no idea if there were more things they could have done while keeping that in line, I however have no grumble with the likes of Garland, Pineiro, Molina, etc. heading elsewhere.
When they made the comments at the beginning of the off-season they did not say we will go out and spend stupid amounts of money on mediocre talent to fill spots with player who may not be better than what we have.
rustyjr
2/7/2010-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
trs have i offended you?
trs86
2/7/2010-5:22pm at 5:22 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, Rusty you would have to try much harder than that to offend me. I completely understand your view point. I just disagree.
Kingman 26
2/7/2010-4:54pm at 4:54 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with TRS.
I am certainly not offended, but should they have spent 40 mil on Pineiro and 20 mil on Molina and 30 mil on Garland?
No way no how.
I totally approve of giving Maine/Ollie/Pelf ONE more chance, and if we are tanking come June, then the team MUST be expected to move prospects and spend a ton to bring in AGonz or a starter or both.
To me, if we stink and they do not spend a lot during the year, then it is time to wave the Nabob Flag.
stickguy
2/7/2010-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
Well, it seems like the big issue many people have is that silly appearance by Jeffy and Omar at the beginning of the off season, and frankly, that is 2 people that should not be allowed to speak in public. But, maybe they oversold a bit, but in essence, all they really said was they would explore any option to (in their opinion) make the team better.
So, they obviously did not feel that the other available optins (beyond Bay) make the team better, and WITHOUT negatively impacting the LT future of the club, at a cost they felt was worth it.
And that statement was obviously not a blueprint for their off season plan of action, and that is probably a good thing, since telling the world what you want to do in advance is usually a bad business model!
But, from trying to reverse-engineer the plan (assuming, of course, there was one) based on actions, it seems clear that they were looking to bring in a top-tier talent (a difference maker?) if it fit with the LT view of the team, while keeping the key members of the team together for 1 more, hopefully helathy, run at the playoffs.
But, it was not an all-in, now or never attempt, meaning trade every prospect for aging veterans, sign more to overpirced or over length deals, and thus greatly compromising the chance os sustained success for 2011+.
As much as fans (grumpy from the last 3 years) want to see them try to win at all costs in 2010, teams really can’t operate that way. And the Mets (although you can quibble about a few last moves not made) seem to be trying to walk the fine line between contending in 2010, but also having payroll and roster flexibility going forward, and also building up ML ready prospects (to use or trade).
SO, IMO this is a transition year, and 2011 will either be a continue to develop and retool as needed year, or a major blow it up year.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Why is this year a transition year? Do we not have 5 All-Star caliber players on the team? What ML team has that many stars on their team and is transitioning?
Yes, it might have been wise not to trade the farm or try to overpay for Lackey by giving him 5/85. But, why would a 2/10 deal for Molina or 2/16 to Pineiro hamper the future of the team? That’s nonsense.
But, lets say those deals would have hampered the LT plan of the team, would 1 year deals to LaRoche or Garland have killed the team LT?
I know you’ll say it’ll stop Omar from doing a mid-season trade. I hate to say it, but you’d be very naive to believe Omar is going to make a big mid-season trade. First, that’s not Omar’s M.O. Second, the Mets are on record as saying they need to let the farm develop into ML players. Third, if they had offers to Molina and Pineiro, I guarantee they still had money in reserves for some trade, if necessary. If there is a mid-season trade, it’ll be for a mediocre player, that we could’ve just signed now without having to trade for.
Ultimately, the frustration comes from the fact that the team could’ve been improved without trading the farm or getting bloated long term contracts, yet for some unexplainable reason we didn’t improve the team and left it in pretty shaky conditions. Once again, Omar has failed to put a solid supporting cast around our stars. That’s a shame.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
oops, forgot about Bay. That makes 6 All-Star caliber players.
trs86
2/7/2010-5:28pm at 5:28 pm (UTC -4)
You are also assuming that Garland wanted to come to NY or LaRoche wanted to come to the Mets. Or the fact that Pineiro may have taken more money. Again, it was said best earlier today. Not one of those guys would have made us a WS contender if we were not one already. Is LaRoche that much of an upgrade over Murphy? Are you 10M sure? Is Molina for 2/10 that much of an upgrade over Santos, Blanco, Coste and Thole? Which Pineiro are you getting for that mutliyear contract?
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-6:52pm at 6:52 pm (UTC -4)
And you are assuming that none of them wanted to come to NY or that it would’ve taken more money.
One of these guys wouldn’t have made a difference, but getting a few would.
These guys may not be stars, but they are upgrades, no matter how you want to paint it. I’d be happy giving Murphy a shot if we upgraded in other positions.
Molina at $5M is absolutely an upgrade over a guy who had a lucky year, another who isn’t a starter, another who isn’t a ML player anymore, and a kid who isn’t ready to start.
Even if you got bad Pineiro, I’d consider him being an upgrade over Nieve, Niese and Figgy and he’d have a decent priced contract that doesn’t give you the same problems that Ollie’s does.
trs86
2/7/2010-7:07pm at 7:07 pm (UTC -4)
Again, we are almost positive that Garland and LaRoche wanted what they got. Also, Molina for 2 years is not worth the upgrade. Who are you to determine if a guy got “lucky”. Yes his minor league stats are terrible but perhaps Molina was “lucky” not to have a heart attack on the way to 1B.
Again, I think the difference in the way we see things is you wanted the Mets to spend money and possible multiple years to patch holes with career mediocre to below average guys and I think they did fine by not doing it.
metsfan4decades
2/7/2010-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
‘As much as fans (grumpy from the last 3 years) want to see them try to win at all costs in 2010, teams really can’t operate that way. And the Mets (although you can quibble about a few last moves not made) seem to be trying to walk the fine line between contending in 2010, but also having payroll and roster flexibility going forward, and also building up ML ready prospects (to use or trade).’
Interesting statement and probably true to a good extent (unless, of course, you’re the Yankees…)
If so, this is a very gutsy move by Omar considering he has to know his job is on the line and perception of the NY Mets right now. I don’t know if I can give him credit for that kind of mindset.
I believe there is more to it than that. Whether it is Wilpon pulling the strings, or Omar’s failure to get guys he targeted (be it Lackey, Pinero, Monina, etc.) b/c they really don’t want to come to the Mets right now – I feel there is more going on in that FO than we know right now.
Time will tell.
trs86
2/7/2010-5:24pm at 5:24 pm (UTC -4)
This I completely agree with.
all they really said was they would explore any option to (in their opinion) make the team better.
That is like a parent telling the kids we may go to the beach if things work out.
stickguy
2/7/2010-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Oh yeah, the flip side of wanting a team of stars and big names.
They usually come with big contracts, so you are stuck with them when they no longer are earning their money!
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not asking for more big stars (though Johan might be). I’m asking for solid supporting players w/ ML experience.
Instead we’ll be counting on big years from Santos, Murphy, Frenchy, Castillo, M.O.P., Niese, Nieve, Escobar, Japaneese guy.
To count on a few is okay, but the Mets don’t have any solid support players, none!
trs86
2/7/2010-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, I guess we will find out if that is true or not. Most solid support players were once guys like Vicki and Werth that were not solid support at all and cast offs from their previous team.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-6:55pm at 6:55 pm (UTC -4)
What part of what I said is not true? Who do you consider to be a solid support player (and by this I mean league average)?
I’m not saying none WILL BE solid players in the FUTURE. But can you honestly tell me that any of them are solid support players RIGHT NOW?
trs86
2/7/2010-7:04pm at 7:04 pm (UTC -4)
Neither were Werth, Vicki, Dobbs, etc… I think Murphy, Castillo, Francouer, Maine, Perez, Feliciano, and others can be at least average.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-7:14pm at 7:14 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, they can be and I hope they do. But it’s not my point, which is that the stars need solid support, not let’s hope these guys can perform to league average.
It’s the difference between 2006 and the last few years.
Where’s Floyd, Nady, and LoDuca? Where’s Trachsel, Glavine and El Duque?
Maybe I’m asking for too much.
trs86
2/7/2010-7:48pm at 7:48 pm (UTC -4)
Were you sure that Nady, El Duque, Trax were going to be solid support going into the season? Were you sure that Floyd, LoDuca and El duque were going to be healthy and produce. Every championship team, besides the Yankees, has someone unexpected step up.
trs86
2/7/2010-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
Just a little refresher. Again, we have no idea if this will happen to the Mets but neither did the 2007 Phillies.
Werth, AAA player who came in to play 98 games and get 300+ ABs
Vici, cast off with one decent year under his belt.
Dobbs, never had 200 AB’s in a season.
Rowand, career year, OK starting to stretch it some from the offensive side. There are most likely more.
Pitching
Great numbers from unproven guys in Hamels and a rookie Kendrick.
Again, I know we are not the Phillies but they are the team that came to mind for having a bunch of non supporting cast members become supporting cast. I can see similarities in Frenchy, Murphy and Pagan to those first 3 guys named.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
yes, our guys can step up and hopefully will.
but, I’d feel a whole lot more confident if we weren’t relying on so many of them stepping up.
baseball is played on the field, but tell that to the Nats, Pirates and Royals.
you have to put together the best team possible and then play it on the field.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-10:07pm at 10:07 pm (UTC -4)
Nothing is certain.
I hope you are not comparing the guys I listed as solid guys in 06 to the list of question marks we have now.
The 2006 supporting cast had a record of at least average production. Ours doesn’t.
trs86
2/7/2010-10:43pm at 10:43 pm (UTC -4)
Floyd was terrible in 2006. Glavine was not a supplemental piece, he had to be the ace. Trax pitched 164 innings (we had no 200 innings guy). Nady was nothing at the time. Elduque was a midseason add after having a 6+ ERA with the Dbacks. LoDuca had a great rebound season that he would never approach again.
These guys were no sure things. Were they more sure things than Francouer, Murphy, Castillo, Santos, Maine, Perez, Escobar, Feliciano….
Some yes and some no. But you could also make the case for Glavine and Floyd going into the season they were NOT supplemental guys. They were part of the core.
Kingman 26
2/7/2010-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
M Donald Grant traded Seaver and Kingman for crap and presided over 5th and 6th place teams.
The Wilpons have paid massively for Pedro, Johan, KRod, Delgado, Wagner, Beltran, and early extensions for Reyes and Wright.
And 2005–2008 were ultimately disappointing, but to compare them with the M Donald Grant era?
Perhaps they did not spend because other than Lackey, Bay and Holliday, what was available was crap.
EVERY site which pines for Marquis is WRONG; he is crap. Wolf, Pineiro, Garland, Davis, Molina, Bedard, Sheets—-everything available was crap, old, or injured, or more than one of the above.
Love you Rusty, I really do, but this comparison is, at best, premature.
IMHO, if the team is playing like garbage and below .500 in June and we make no major, expensive acquisitions, then it is time to question the team’s intentions.
Kingman 26
2/7/2010-5:00pm at 5:00 pm (UTC -4)
And Jason Bay, very possibly the best free agent available this year.
I am sorry Rusty, I am not picking on you buddy….I just cannot see comparing the Wilpons to M Donald Grant and Lorinda DeRoulet, whose penny-pinching ways led to a horrible team.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
Cameron 2/16 (LF or could’ve slided over w/ Beltran out)
Garland 1/6 (5th starter)
Myers 1/6 (SP or SU)
LaRoche 1/6 (would’ve let Murphy replace the Tatis role)
Molina 2/10 (fat but supposed to improve defense and one of the better hitting catchers that were available)
Total $29M this year and $13M for next year.
That’s a group of solid players, not stars, that would’ve plugged up the holes on this team and lessened the pressure on the rest of the team.
GravediggerHebner
2/7/2010-5:16pm at 5:16 pm (UTC -4)
1). Cameron publicly stated playing LF was his last option. He signed before Beltran’s fiasco, and depending on what reports you believe he will be playing CF in Boston this year with Ellsbury moving to LF.
2). I was willing to settle for Garland too but depending on who you believe he was interested in “staying out west” so the team would’ve likely had to overpay to get him to give up the idea of staying out west.
3). Can’t argue with that Myers point, the only minor thought is the well publicized idea that the Wilpon family wants “nice” guys, which Myers is not.
4). LaRoche turned down noticeably more money from SF who has a ballpark similar to ours to play in AZ because he liked hitting there. Murphy in the Tatis role? Case you surprise me by even suggesting that.
5). 35 year old starting catchers are a bad idea.
I don’t think they could’ve got Cameron at all, and I think they would’ve had to overpay all the rest of the guys except Myers who I doubt they wanted in the first place. So while every thing you state makes sense as you state it, especially your last sentence, how likely is it that any of them would’ve come at all, let alone without being overpaid (or perhaps more appropriately, paid more than they actually got) to come here?
Kingman 26
2/7/2010-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
Largely agree with Grave here.
Reports also said that Cameron hated playing next to Beltran as they both are super-aggressive center fielders.
Would have gone for Molina, but not overpaid for him, and same for Garland.
Agree that Myers would have been worth it as well.
trs86
2/7/2010-5:32pm at 5:32 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, so Cameron over Bay? No thank you. Discussed that one already. Not to mention why would we want Beltran and Cameron back in the same OF?
Garland Publicly stated he wanted to be out West
Myers Wilpons wanted nothing to do with him
LaRoche Mets are very high on Murphy and believe he can put up similar numbers for a fraction of the cost. Have no idea how much it would have taken considering he turned down much more from SF because he wanted a more offensive friendly field. That certainly would rule out the mets
Molina, really?
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-7:05pm at 7:05 pm (UTC -4)
I understand that there are plenty of excuses of why getting these guys didn’t work, some of which are hardly proven facts since we aren’t omniscient.
Still, I can’t imagine that it would’ve been impossible for Omar to acquire some solid supporting players for the stars on this team.
I don’t think it’s asking too much to get some league average players.
Instead, it seems that he got one star player (his specialty), didn’t bring in any solid players (his problem for many years now), and instead is counting on a bunch of question marks hoping they’ll stick (again his specialty).
trs86
2/7/2010-7:13pm at 7:13 pm (UTC -4)
I see your point of view. It may have helped this year to patch those hoes. I hope that you see the Mets possible point of view as well as a few on here. It was not worth the money or multi-year contracts to bring in career mediocre guys to patch holes. The believe in their guys and feel that if given a chance a guy like Murphy can out perform LaRoche and Nieve/Niese can be just as good as Pineiro. How would you like next year if the Mets still needed a #2 pitcher and because they signed Molina and Pineiro could not afford one? By the way, how certain are you that Pineiro would not return to being the Pineiro he has been his entire life?
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-7:24pm at 7:24 pm (UTC -4)
That they believed in their guys is a lie.
If they did, why were they looking at Delgado and Sheets? Why did they make offers to Pineiro and Molina? Did they have faith in their guys then?
There are no guarantees that there will be any #2 pitchers next year. If they were really concerned about that, they wouldn’t have made any offers after Bay.
How certain are you that any of our pitchers will perform to their career bests, which isn’t much other than for Santana?
Yes, any player the Mets would’ve brought in would’ve been played worse than Nieve or Niese, and Murphy and Santos, and Escobar and Igarashi. I feel sorry for all those other teams that wasted money on mediocre players. They should go the Omar route of throwing a bunch of players on the wall and see what sticks.
trs86
2/7/2010-7:52pm at 7:52 pm (UTC -4)
OK, so signing Pineiro for 2 years would have give us a #2 this or next?
How certain are you that Pineiro won’t just return to garbage and then we are saddled with Perez, Pineiro, Castillo and if you signed Molina, 4 untradable contracts.
I never said that any of those guys would be worse than what we had. I said that the Mets did not feel like they were worth the cost or years as an upgrade.
Again we are not going to agree here. Fact is now it does not really matter. Go Murphy, Maine, Perez, and Nieve/Niese.
CaseStreet
2/7/2010-10:17pm at 10:17 pm (UTC -4)
What I believe is the Mets could have and should have done better.
And when someone comes on here to say Omar couldn’t have or shouldn’t have done anything else besides what he did now, I’ll disagree.
Mostly, I was disagreeing with sticks assertion that this was a transition year and that the team couldn’t or shouldn’t have been improved without hampering the teams budget long term or without trading away the farm.
trs86
2/7/2010-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
I am not sure I agree with the transition part.
However, I do agree that with the idea that the Mets payroll does not have much flexibility for next year and would have had even less with at least 4 untradeable contracts.
GravediggerHebner
2/8/2010-12:27am at 12:27 am (UTC -4)
I understand and agree that these excuses are not proven facts and that we are not omniscient.
The difference between you and I on the points you laid out is that I am more ready or willing (or both) to believe the excuses where you are not. I can’t fault you for not buying them, or not wanting to. But they work for me. So therefore I don’t have any quarrel with the team for not doing any of the things you suggested specifically.
Generally I agree with the concept I think I understand you to be conveying which is that the team is the same as it always was, a team with a lot of stars and a lot of question marks and not much in between. As far as who were the options to better answer those questions and were they reasonably coming here at any price, let alone at a “fair” price I think we’ve all gone over the options and debated our opinions on them.
I have no issue with your dissatisfaction, I only laid out my comment to share my view of the items causing your dissatisfaction and while I may very well be just as dissatisfied in general, I am less so as regards the specific solutions you laid out because I am more accepting of the reasons why they didn’t work out.
What I am about to say should not be interpreted as an attempt to stifle you or anyone else who wishes to continue to express their dissatisfaction but I can’t wait until 3/2 when games start and we have something else to focus on, I think we’re running with one foot nailed to the floor as far as this off season at this point.
Kingman 26
2/7/2010-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
I am not as confident as I was 10 days ago, but I am saying Colts 37, Saints 27.
trs86
2/7/2010-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
Saints 31-27
trs86
2/7/2010-7:03pm at 7:03 pm (UTC -4)
Quick Saints trade for help.
GravediggerHebner
2/7/2010-5:54pm at 5:54 pm (UTC -4)
I have no real rooting interest but I usually wind up pulling for the underdog unless they get blown out early, then I am more interested in snacks and beverages.
Either way, the city of New Orleans wins because either their team wins or their favorite son does. I wish I were down there tonight.
trs86
2/7/2010-9:44pm at 9:44 pm (UTC -4)
Saints show how the game is not played on paper, a few BIG stars can win the game and always root for the underdog.
GravediggerHebner
2/8/2010-12:35am at 12:35 am (UTC -4)
I agree with the first part of your point about “on paper” but if you’re trying to compare the Mets to the Saints while I agree the Mets are the underdog, I don’t think the Saints are the team with “a few BIG stars” I think that’s the Colts. The Saints are much more balanced, less top heavy, like what I believe Case is saying the Mets should be above than the Colts.
stickguy
2/8/2010-7:54am at 7:54 am (UTC -4)
I think I hit a nerve with my use of the word “transition” (year). What I really meant was it will be a continuation of last year (a re-do of sorts) with the team healthy, but also 1 last shot for this core (including management) to prove they can do it. And if not, a lot of changes coming.
And at this point, I really can’t wait to start looking at and discussing the team that we have, and to stop rehashing every move that Omar did or didn’t do, and trying to figure out the dynamics of the FO.
Just put the damned team on the field and lest see what they can do!