Our next RF?
Fernando Martinez apparently isn’t done making headlines in the Mets organization. F-Mart led his team, the Dominican Republic, to a win in the series while going 8-23 with two home runs. Martinez hit for a batting average of .348, an OBP of .375, and a SLG of .652 (OPS of 1.027) in the series.
The consensus seems to be that FMart will spend most if not all of the season in triple A ball, but do you guys think he has a shot at playing center while Beltran’s out?
Another question is where does FMart end up on the team if he stays beyond this season? I realize he’s generally thought of as a LF or maybe even a CF, but what about right field? Frenchy’s barely worth the $5MM he’ll make this season, and in arbitration he’ll likely be set for at least $7MM next season. Would it be worth non-tendering him and giving the much cheaper Martinez a shot?
(thanks to Enrique Rojas of ESPN for the tip)
257 comments
stickguy
2/8/2010-7:50am at 7:50 am (UTC -4)
Nothing like getting ahead of yourself Pris!
anyway, to answer your questions, I will guess that the Mets hope to keep him in AAA as long as possible. But, if ST works out a certain way, he could end up starting the season in CF. I doubt it, but could happen.
WOuld probably take a monster spring by Martinez, an injury to Pagan, and GMjr. playing to his expected levelof suckitude. And frankly, all 3 are quite possible. But I still expect him to at least start in AAA.
Next year? If he proves ready for the majors, replacing Frnechy is certainly possible. And who knows what to expect out of him this season
And of course, being the Mets, there is always the possibility of a series of injuries screwing up the plans!
One thing I don’t see happening, especially before Beltran proves himself to be 100% healthy and durable enough to play every day, is for Martinez to get traded.
prismo
2/8/2010-7:54am at 7:54 am (UTC -4)
How did I get ahead of myself? I never stated my own opinion – only posed a couple questions.
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:07am at 8:07 am (UTC -4)
just meant worrying about what happens next off season, when we haven’t finished worrying about what is happening this off season!
prismo
2/8/2010-8:09am at 8:09 am (UTC -4)
Ah, fair enough then!
I do have that issue though. I’m also thinking up posts where I’ll discuss next offseason’s free agents, and then I realize that it’s way far off, and I should worry about the season at hand.
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:12am at 8:12 am (UTC -4)
how about you worry about how much snow I am going to get tomorrow night, since I don’t have any place to put more?
SJ, just outside philly. ANd be gentle.
prismo
2/8/2010-8:23am at 8:23 am (UTC -4)
The models are all over the place with this one.
I’d say 6-10 inches is a good bet, with a risk to the higher side. There are some models that are saying a foot or more for Philly and much of NJ. Also some that give 4-5 inches though.
Looks like it’ll snow Tuesday night through most of the day Wednesday.
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
I’m with Stick. Enough with the snow this season.
I’ll take your 4-5 inch model, thank you very much. Although NOAA is indicating that isn’t looking too likely down here on the Central Jersey Shore.
prismo
2/8/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
Latest statistical model (just came out) says ~65% chance central and southern NJ get over an inch of liquid (which would be 10+ inches of snow). However, it also says that there will be some rain and mixing along the coast, which would obviously mean less snow.
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-8:49am at 8:49 am (UTC -4)
I’m as guilty as you, looking at the next offseason already. Could be a nice situation, with the core mostly in it’s prime, young guns on their way up and with all the FAs to be (especialy in starting pitching). I have reserved expectations for this season (still hoping for the best) but envision some very nice things for the following season for sure.
CaseStreet
2/8/2010-7:59am at 7:59 am (UTC -4)
Pretty much agree.
Figure fmart replaces frenchy and then you got Flores who could replace bay in 3 to 4 years. What’s the lt plan for cf?
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:11am at 8:11 am (UTC -4)
I thought that Martinez was the plan. But, if you have him settled into RF, and are considering in-house guys, then Kirk N. is the most logical, since he s/b about 2 years out (if last years development was for real, he should arrive in AAA this year), and from the reports I saw, he has the talent to actually (maybe) stick in CF.
He is a guy that I am real interested to see how he does this yer. Lots of natural talent, and he really seemed to figure it out last year. Him and Havens could rise fast this season, and since CF and 2B are gaping holes for 2012, might be a good thing if they do!
trs86
2/8/2010-8:22am at 8:22 am (UTC -4)
No reason to think that all of these spots will be filled in house when you are in NY. However, you could always slide Fmart over if he proves to be a comfortable fielder. Lets not completely discount Pagan either. It is possible that he comes out and catches fire in CF like always and becomes an OF candidate longterm.
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:29am at 8:29 am (UTC -4)
I’m sure that it won’t end up being all in house guys (could be though), but for the sake of the exercise, that was the parameters!
If you wan’t to open it up to trades after next year, then everyone is on the table.
Would be nice to see them able to fill a few holes with young guys, and build a next-generation cheap core, especially since DW and Jose (if resigned) will still be in their primes.
If nothing else, it leaves the FA $ to spend on pitching, if their is any.
trs86
2/8/2010-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
You could also see Crawford roaming LF and Frenchy gone. Just depends on if the Mets still need pitching, what is out there and how our guys do.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
I think re-signing Beltran is a possibility too. But that’s still 2 years away. Maybe the Mets can sign him for a 2-year contract. But then he may not have the speed to play CF.
trs86
2/8/2010-8:05am at 8:05 am (UTC -4)
Obviously it will all depend on 3 things.
1) How Fmart does in AAA and his inevitable call up for injury.
2) If Frenchy proves that he is the guy we saw instead of the Atlanta dud.
3) If the Mets really are strapped for cash and need the 5-8M.
1) If Fmart really tears up AAA and holds his own in his call up then the Mets can see him as a viable starting candidate. Until then it would be too risky just to hand it over to him.
2) If Frenchy does do well and Fmart also pushes then we have a good problem to have. Francouer would still have trade value as would Fmart. If he tanks then the job is Fmart’s to lose.
3) The Mets have no contracts really coming off the books next year and salary increases for many players. If they really are in a bind financially, having 5-7M more to spend on other positions may make a difference.
prismo
2/8/2010-8:12am at 8:12 am (UTC -4)
Especially with the solid crop of free agents next off-season. $7MM could make a huge difference. Frenchy was good last season for the Mets, but over his career he’s a marginally average player. Results that I think FMart could very well duplicate after a full season in AAA and a clean bill of health. Certainly would be worth trading Frenchy’s production for Fmart’s along with a #2 pitcher.
Again…getting ahead of myself. I can’t help it!
trs86
2/8/2010-8:18am at 8:18 am (UTC -4)
It’s hard to call Francouer anything. He has been up and down a lot. However, he is still only 26 so there is time for him to become more consistent. Last year fangraphs had him worth 1.8M with the Mets but also have him as a terrible defender. I don’t believe that is true at all. Thus taking the negative defensive value out he is most likely worth about what he is getting paid. CHONE has him valued at 4.9M for 2010 very close to his salary. I hope Mr. CHONE is correct.
prismo
2/8/2010-8:28am at 8:28 am (UTC -4)
I think he’s absolutely worth a shot at the $5MM he’s getting this season.
But what about 7 mil, or 8? No way is he worth that at his current level of inconsistency. Last off-season arb-eligible players on average got a 143% raise.
I realize it’s hard to judge Frenchy on his lifetime stats, due to his having a couple good seasons and a couple bad seasons…but I think his lifetime OPS is under .750, which is practically worthless in this market for a team with the Mets’ payroll. Again though, we have to see how he does this season. If he hits 25-30HR with 100+RBI and FMart doesn’t light up AAA, maybe it’s worth paying him $7.5MM.
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:32am at 8:32 am (UTC -4)
His age and (apparent) natural talent do make him more interesting, and worth taking the flyer on. If he was already say 31, the odds of finally putting it all together would be quite slim.
He is just hitting that +/- 27 YO sweet spot when hitters are supposed to have their break out career years.
Just glad they didn’t sign him to a 3 year deal. Let him prove over a full season that he is actually worth it. Then trade his sorry keister!
trs86
2/8/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
We only need to look as far as Jayson Werth for an example of a guy not clicking until 26+. His 2005 season with the Dodgers .234 with a .711 OPS. Did not even play in the majors in 2006.
stickguy
2/8/2010-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
he also missed 2006 due to an injury (wrist or hand I think) that IIRC was initially misdiagnosed and treated (for a year or more), and no, the Met medical people had nothing to do with it.
Not sure if 2005 was just him being new to the majors, or if the injury impacted him then too.
But Werth is the perfect example of a former top prospect that ran into a rough patch (injury here) that a team took a chance on and hit the jackpot.
trs86
2/8/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Really a few similarities there. He came up and had a very good stint in a small sample in 2004, crap in 2005, injured in 2006, rebound in 2007.
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:18am at 8:18 am (UTC -4)
And going back to yesterday’s discussion, the lack of payroll relief after this season is likely a big part of the Mets not wanting to just up the ante on 2 or more year deals for marginal upgrades this season.
Not that it would have prevented them grabbing some of the 1-year guys (but of coruse, we never know which of them would have gone to NY for 1 year), except maybe they are saving payroll $ for later on?
So, for your #3, having say Thole and Neise instead of year 2 of Molina and Pienera in 2011 frees up close to $15mill, and you can get a pretty good player for that kind of scratch!
trs86
2/8/2010-8:21am at 8:21 am (UTC -4)
I think that has a lot to do with it. What players better than what we have would have came to NY for 1 year? You could say the same for 1B or for that matter 2B. Also as you know they have a lot of money coming off after the 2011 season.
stickguy
2/8/2010-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
Actually a ton. Must be at least 50mill or so just from Reyes, Beltran, Castillo and Ollie. Even more if K Rod’s option doesn’t vest (that 17mill is going to look real ugly in 2012).
ANd of the bunch, I only expect (or want) Reyes to be re-upped, so that still leaves a good 35mill or so available.
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
I’m assuming when you say you only want Reyes to be re-upped, it was from your list of Reyes, Beltran, Castillo and Ollie.
I have to believe DWright is a no brainer, right?
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
I can’t see why Reyes wouldn’t be re-upped. Unless his leg falls of or there is some horrific lambada incident he’s involved with.
stickguy
2/8/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
I was just talking about FAs after the 2011 season. DW has an option for 2012 that I am sure will be exercised. I actually expect he will be extended LT before that is even an issue though.
So yes, out of those 4 guys, the only one I want or expect to get a new contract is Reyes. Luis and Ollie are obvious (although who knows, by then Ollie could be the enxt Kaufax!), and I figure Beltran and his jnees will be way too risky by then.
Beltran though could be a nice guy to offer arb to though, and hope for some picks!
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
With all the chat about moving Beltran, doesn’t he have a full no trade clause? I can’t see why he would be moved unless his knees blow out, which you wouldn’t be able to move him anyway. All I see on this one is collecting 2 draft picks when he walks away.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Here’s what Cot’s has
# 7 years/$119M (2005-11)
* signed by NY Mets as a free agent 1/05
* $11M signing bonus
o $5M at signing 1/05, $2M 6/15/05, $2M 1/15/06, $2M 1/15/07
* 05:$10M, 06:$12M, 07:$12M, 08:$18.5M, 09:$18.5M, 10:$18.5M, 11:$18.5M
* full no-trade clause
* $22M ($5.5M annually from 2008-11 salaries) deferred at 1.72% compounded interest
* club agreed to not offer arbitration after 2011 season
The last bullet means that the Mets will not get draft picks for Beltran signing with another team.
Also, I think if the team is out of the race completely by the trade deadline, I can see Beltran being shopped to more competitive team (like the BoSox) to free up some salary for 2011 FA class.
trs86
2/8/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm, good info there. Did not know that. So yes, unless the Mets plan on keeping him then they indeed will be forced to see if they can trade him during the season. Convincing him to waive the NTC.
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Did not know that last point. Nice work Kistics.
That being the case, unless they are in the thick of it, can’t see why they wouldn’t want to move him for something.
If traded, does that same clause apply with not offering arb to the team that’s picked him up? If not arb., his value will be diminished.
stickguy
2/8/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, did not know that Boras had the foresight to put the arb clause in 5 years ago. Guy might be obnoxious, but he isn’t stupid.
So if he walks in FA, they get nothing, bummer.
But, if the team is out of it in 2011 (say it was a replay of 2009, but with Beltran the last man standing), it should not be hard to convince him to accept a trade to a playoff contender. At least if he wants a chance for the post season, why wouldn’t he?
No chance they try to move him this year, and hopefully they are doing well enough next year that they wouldn’t consider it.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
I agree that the Mets will almost be forced to move him if they are out of the race. I’m assuming that the same clause will still be there even if he gets moved.
trs86
2/8/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
We are also assuming that the Mets and Beltran do not work out an extension after this season.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Given the health of his knees I don’t think it would be very wise to extend his contract until the last possible minute.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
I actually would like to see that. But how long will the extension be? I wouldn’t extend it beyond 2013. Beltran/Boras probably want extension thru 2033 though.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
True Wanny. Just thinking you might have more control then than waiting until after the season and he is a FA.
Also, I would expect him to still be able to at least play RF if he is still hitting well.
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
I would expect FMart to play all year in triple A, with maybe a Sept call up – no matter how good he’s doing. Unless we’re absolutely desperate for OFs due to injuries (and that can’t happen 2 years in a row, can it???), I think the plan is to see how he does all year in the minors – hoping he actually plays all year injury free.
ceetar
2/8/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
If you actually look, we’ve had at least half a dozen OF injuries every season for the last couple.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Can Fmart play half a season at AAA healthy b4 we start talking about bringing him up.
I don’t want to see him up with the big club unless it is to start everyday.
Which to happen would require that Bay or Frenchy go on the dl and no one wants that.
I am looking forward to watching Fmart starting in this year’s AAA All-Star Game.
trs86
2/8/2010-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I agree. However, it could have been that last year he would have put together a healthy AAA season if we did not rush him up to be the savior of the land. Once on the 2009 Mets, your likelihood of injury increases 10-fold.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
You said it, “could have been”.
ceetar
2/8/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
Well, if he proves he can hit, why not bring him up?
What would be perfect is if he’s ready, he hits hard in Spring, and Omar can leverage Francoeur for a pitcher in some type of deal. Martinez and Pagan can hold down CF, and if someone gets injured before Beltran returns we still got guys like Cattalanotto to hold things down.
It’s a bit of a hopeful gamble, but wouldn’t you rather gamble that Martinez evolves into a stud than hope Francoeur keeps up his Mets stats?
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
I agree he needs to prove he can hit but I am looking at it as can he prove he is ready by hitting over a large body of games. I get your gamble I would say that if you could get a decent starter for frenchy go for it.
Do you realistically see Minaya pulling a move like that off? I don’t.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
I think it would be foolish to expect a 21 year old to be ready to play everyday and produce well enough to stay in the lineup.
now if Martinez plays CF to start the year and plays well then maybe you can move Francouer at the deadline
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
Frenchy’s not worth 5 mil?
Maybe FMart should stay healthy until Spring Training begins before we cut Frenchy??
trs86
2/8/2010-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Frenchy most likely will be “worth” about 3-5M in stats. However, what that does not measure is his “grit”. Back to seriousness it could be that his positive attitude, if he retains that for a full season on the Mets, could be very valuable yet not measured in his “worth”.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, but he is a good fielder, hustles his rump off, and yeah, we laugh about grit with some Legendary players, but maybe Frenchy really has that rare Hernandez/Backman/Dykstra quality.
A positive hustling attitude will be worth a few bucks on this team I believe.
I am just plain seriously in positivo mode, and shall remain there until we see a plethora of spring injuries or the team gets off to a slow regular season start.
VERY nice prediction by the way yesterday–nice work. 3 great Super Bowls in a row!
trs86
2/8/2010-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
LOL, I was nervous at 10-0.
Back to your point, I know this would be a firestorm but the Mets are basically paying 1.5M to Cora for his grit, hustle, positive energy and leadership. So that basically means the Mets are paying Frenchy 3.5M for talent and 1.5 for extra stuff right? Bargain???? LOL.
stickguy
2/8/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
hey, cora got an extra million for his attitude and intangibles, so why shouldn’t Frenchy get a little pop?
ceetar
2/8/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
depends if it’s true that they’ve maxed out their budget (they haven’t). If they’re not spending because they’re out of money because of extra bits to these guys, then it’s a problem.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
“that rare Hernandez/Backman/Dykstra quality”
Thanks, Kong.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
LOL! No problem!
You have two of them, and despite my hastily-chosen name a few years ago, Keith is my all-time numero uno favorite Met.
The “Grit/Chemistry/Clutchness does not exist” argument ends at Keith’s door.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
I still think Martinez is not ready for the MLB. He needs a full season in AAA to prove he can produce at a high level for an extended period of time.
While his numbers were certainly impressive, it was only 23 ABs…still its a great sign regardless…
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
I have to agree with this. Even a good ST for an up and coming prospect – especially one this young, doesn’t necessarily translate to being ready to hit ML pitching for the course of a season.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I doubt that the Mets will rush him up to the majors unless they necessarily have to.
trs86
2/8/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Should not have last year. Senseless move. Hey Fmart, hope your ready you need to save NY.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
well honestly who else could they have called up??? every single guy in Buffalo was awful last year except for him and Jesus Feliciano…
trs86
2/8/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Why call him up? Go get a retread like you did for Reyes. You had Sullivan and Reed.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
I can’t recall exactly but my impression was people were excited at the idea of FMart possibly stepping in and filling the void Beltran left. I remember FMart having a press conference and when do you see a rookie have a press conference?
It turned out that the kid was clearly overmatched and most agreed that the only reason he was brought up was due to Beltran’s injury.
I don’t fault the Mets for trying with Fmart.
I just don’t like it when a team calls a kid up only to have him ride the bench and not get playing time to help further his development.
Hopefully Fmart can stay healthy for a season and we can get a feel for what he can possibly do.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I just thought it was a no win situation. He would have had to come in and really produce for it to work. They had options that were not bad options at the time.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
fair enough
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I think at that time, the Mets and the fans were desperate and needed some glimmer of hope.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
I know you agree but that is such a dumb strategy though right?
Take a kid who is finally producing and just throw him right into the lineup and say sink or swim buddy all of NY is depending on you.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Keep in mind that while Beltran is on the DL F-Mart is currently the only player on the 40 man roster capable of playing CF if either Pagan or Matthews are injured. If not F-Mart, they’d have to put Jesus Feliciano on the 40 man, which is not that big of a deal.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
I think most will agree that they’d like to see Fmart “prove he can produce at a high level for an extended period of time.” I am excited to see Davis this Spring but at the same time concerned with the Mets handling of him in 2010 and beyond.
whataputz
2/8/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
If he’s tearing it up in ST then why not give him a shot. As long as he knows it’s Beltrans spot, it’s not a terrible idea. And if he is playing consistently good in AAA he could always be next in line if a guy goes down. I’m very curious to see how Frenchy plays this season. Keep in mind he was pretty awful until he came here.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
I think that Pagan deserves that chance unless he just completely tanks the ST.
whataputz
2/8/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
I feel that if Frenchie comes into the season and is back to his 3 k’s a game routine, and isn’t producing, and F-Mart is batting in the 300′s and doing his thing in AAA he’s gotta take priority over Pagan. Either way, there should be some kind of gameplan before this season begins which F-Mart and Co are aware of. Either way I’d love to see Davis and F-Mart get some time this season at some point. Especially if this rotation does us in and we got a repeat of ’09.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Why? It really depends on Pagan. Pagan if producing is proven and it’s not going to hurt Fmart to continue to develop in AAA.
Also, why do we need to let Fmart know anything? He is a prospect. Do well and you will get your chance when the team thinks you will help them or you are traded.
ceetar
2/8/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
They don’t have to tell him anything, but it’s a morale thing. No matter who you are, if you come to the Major Leagues and do well, it doesn’t matter if Babe Ruth is returning from injury, it’s a blow to the ego to be demoted. But if you’re clear about it being a temporary thing, then it softens the blow a little bit.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
OK today is a day I should NOT have read MB.
I will not post my reactions to these but you guys are free to comment (where as you would not be free there)
Buzz: Carlos Beltran is Furious: “actually, i heard beltran is fine”
“I am surprised by the high-level of near-certain doom being expressed by some Mets fans.”
“i thought castillo was a bad second baseman long before the dropped pop-up, and rooted for him to be traded last winter,” “but, he’s just not that good, end of story…”
prismo
2/8/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Let’s hear your thoughts TRS.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Prismo, perhaps NJ is right. It may be me just looking for something.
If I had to, thanks for asking, I would say the following.
Your first post was purely for shock value and hits. If you think Beltran “is fine” then why title the post Beltran is furious?
Next, how are you surprised when almost everything you publish is like the story you just did. With negative spin?
Did you think Castillo was a bad fielder when his UZR was similar to Hudson’s the year before? Or when his UZR last season was about the same as Hudson’s this year? When did you determine he was “just not that good”. Did you say something like “i like Castillo…, want him to succeed, he should be traded….i root for that daily…. he does have a high OBP on the other hand….. but Orlando Hudson could be had….. thus Castillo is not that good….. end of story.”
prismo
2/8/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Adding fuel to the fire…Matt on Wiggy: “he’s consistent at the plate, in terms of how he hits, though his results can be all over the road” – So is he consistent or not?
trs86
2/8/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
LOL, I missed that one.
“He puts the ball in play but K’s too much.”
MC’s hero…. yogi.. berra.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
you really need to just write a post to mc and get i off your chest.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
I guess you are right NJ. Thing is it’s not just MC. I would say similar things about anyone in a media outlet as large as his.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
The point is rather than just keep bringing it up in posts Use your views to post something that shows the holes in those comments.
Take a page from Grave and Ted Quarters.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
This is your site so by all means post your thoughts.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
True, I guess the thing is I don’t want to detract from the purpose of the site on the main page. I use the comment section like many do during the season to relieve frustration. I don’t feel like my views on Cerrone should be something that is necessarily on the front page as a representation of the blog itself. I hope that makes sense. So in other words, I am venting.
ceetar
2/8/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
vent away. Every day I feel more and more sure that Cerrone only writes some of the posts attributed to him.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:38am at 11:38 am (UTC -4)
I hope you are right. Based on my conversations with him however, that is not the case. He is very much a control freak.
ceetar
2/8/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I think the blog grew to a point where he couldn’t control it himself. (Although he was/is crappy with moderation, so I don’t know about the help thing) Though he did tell me once my blog was removed from the blogroll because “an intern did it” (this was when I moved domains and was trying to get him to link to the new one)
It’s the competing points of view and seemingly contridicting himself that makes me thing maybe he’s not writing all his posts.
And I think being in more of a mainstream media role taints his perception of things. He trusts and respects some of these idiot writers that kill Castillo/whoever without really thinking about it.
Who knows.
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
I’ve had no conversations and/or correspondence with MC and even I deduced last year he’s a control freak…..
One thing though I believe to be true in following his blog for the past few years. I really do think his mind on all things Mets works exactly like we see in print. He’s the most bipolar Met fan I’ve ever read. That stretch down ’07 and the collapse, he was worse than a roller coaster, changing his mind within hours, never mind days.
And lately with some of his posts, I have a hard time deciphering what it is he’s trying to say.
I’ll give him credit for his Met passion.
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
why do you even go to that site anymore? There is nothing there that isn’t going to show up on MLBTR and Amazing Ave, Mack’s Mets and this site all kick out the good stuff.
Take all that angst and keep up the constructive construction o’ this site!
trs86
2/8/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Thanks NJ. I guess it’s because MC has created such a giant and in some ways it’s out of control. I think we have, biased of course, one of the best sites on the Mets today and have the best group of authors out there. However, MB had a huge role in the formation of this site and is still like it or not a judge of a very large segment of Mets fans. They go there for all their information and if it is biased or wrong they just believe it and keep on trucking.
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
You can always be the modern day Robin Hood, robbing the Sherriff of Cerone to give knowledge to the poor posters on MB…
TRS, played by Russell Crowe, coming to theather, near you…
It could work.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
So then what do you call what Grave did with Heyman?
I must be missing something because I don’t know what is the purpose of this site?
This is not about Cerrone but about his views on the Mets.
I think someone needs to tell me what this blog is about. I thought it was where fans go to read what other fans think of the NY Mets and can express themselves without fear.
Where the real dirty is more than the author’s name but a mentality.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm…
I think you misunderstood what I am trying to say. Go figure right?
To me the main page has more to do with opinions on Mets happenings. I think what Grave did was great because it did not draw attention away from the site or towards a personal issue with another site.
I guess I am saying I would rather just take the high ground and vent in here than to make the issue something bigger than it is and distract from the other great authors we have on this blog.
I am still not sure if I made sense or not. I guess the best way of saying it is now is just not the time.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
It don’t make sense to me your right.
What Grave did (sorry Grave to keep using you as an example) was to point out a difference of opinion he had with another writer’s article.
I don’t see how you writing why you don’t agree with something MC said is any different.
You wrote an article agreeing with something JOED said so if you can write an article saying why you agree with another blogger you should also be able to write an article about why you don’t agree with another blogger.
It just doesn’t make sense to me.
trs86
2/8/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, it does not make sense to you. LOL. How about those Jets?
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
You see how hard was that next time when I tell you the same you will understand to let it go.
trs86
2/8/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
I am learning. LOL.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Thank God 4 that.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
well the major frustration, in my opinion, is 3 things:
1) the failure to improve the starting rotation for the 2nd consecutive year
2) the PR failures with Beltran’s injury
3) players that could really help us like Hudson, Garko etc. signing elsewhere for a nominal amount of money…
trs86
2/8/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
I guess improve is a subjective term. They signed Ollie last year after knowing he was an up and down guy and got hammered for it. This off-season they did not sign Pineiro an up and down guy and are getting hammered for it.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
2009: Santana, Pelfrey, Maine, Ollie, Livan
2010: Santana, Pelfrey, Maine, Ollie, Niese/Nieve/other
I mean given how awful the 2-5 SP were last season, i dont believe they can all turn around and have good years. I believe they could have improved that rotation without having to spend a fortune on Lackey or overpay for busts like Piniero or Wolf.
To me its Omar’s overrrating of our current rotation combined with his overrating of some prospects that are preventing him from making a trade…
ceetar
2/8/2010-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Except it was injuries. Maine and Perez didn’t pitch the first half of the ’09-’10 season really. Maine did decently in his return, and Perez didn’t have a healthy start at all. Pelfrey I think will improve, and his performance was spotty but not consistantly bad.
That missing 5th spot needs to b e addressed though. Even if Nieve/Niese are good, that hurts the depth.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I agree but then you get back to the question of who. If Lackey was too expensive, Garland did not want to come here and Pineiro and Wolf required too many years/cash the only thing really left is by trade. Until a SP, besides Lee and Halladay, gets moved then we have no idea who is even out there.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
we dont know who is available I just believe that if Omar had a more realistic view of the current situation he would realize how neccesary it is to improve that rotation.
As you all know I have huge dislike for Perez and I expect him (even if healthy) to pitch himself out of the rotation or into AAA. Maine is never healthy and Pelfrey while not a lock, should rebound somewhat…
stickguy
2/8/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree about your comment on Maine (and it seems to be something of an urban legend at thsi point).
He isn’t always hurt. He developed a bone spur in his shoulder, that just took a while to get corrected and rehabbed from. That is what cost him the 2ns half of 2008, and a good chunk of 2009.
But it was 1 issue, now corrected. “always hurt” implies he has one injury after another, and has never stayed on the field. Say, like Mark Prior.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Maine has only pitched 30+ starts once in his career (07). His second highest was 25 in 08 and in 2009 and 2006 he had 15 starts. His second highest amount of innings is 140.
Granted he hasnt been in the MLB that long but as a Met he has averaged 21.75 starts per year. That is not what you want from your #3 SP on a supposed playoff team…
stickguy
2/8/2010-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
not worth an arguement, but in 2006 he was in the minors (so pitched a full year combined). 2007 was his first full year (and a quite good one too). 2008 he was fantastic in ST, and started out the season well. Until the shourlder took him down.
and not being what you want for a #3 isn’t the same as being always hurt.
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Agree with #1 and #2.
Based on a comment Omar made back in Dec (I think it was Dec) after the winter meetings, he indicated he was content with our 1-5 stating something like ‘we’re still looking to improve the team but I’d be comfortable with a starting rotation of Johan/Pelfry/Main/Perez/Niese’. Or something to that effect.
Makes me think he knew after Lackey wasn’t coming here he wasn’t likely to do much else in the way of starting rotation moves. That was the first hint I got not to expect a trade for a #2.
Hope he’s right here putting all his eggs in that basket…
trs86
2/8/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I think from Jerry’s comments to Omar and the pips they were either going to get Lackey or wait on something that would be a certain improvement longterm.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
I just dont see how we can make the playoffs with that rotation. I cant. I mean everything would have to right and the chances of that happening are astronomical…
I mean Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Pelfrey, Maine, Perez, even Santana are coming off bad years. I understand most of which were due to injury but regardless excepting all of them to just bounce back is asking for a miracle really…
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Beltran is coming off of a HORRIBLE year.
80 games, 50 R, 100 H, 20 2B, 10 HR, and career highs in BA (.325) and OBP (.415). And 11/12 SB.
Santana’s injury-plagued 13–9, 3.13 ERA should have him starting the year behind Figgy and Misch on the depth chart.
And Wright sure did K a lot and hit far too few HR, but it is the 39 2B, .307 BA, and .390 OBP which have earned him a trip to Buffalo to start the year.
stickguy
2/8/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
this is horrible stuff. You nabob. You are off of the program. Banished, you here me!
Oh wait, this was sarcasm, right?
As Rosanne Rosannadanna used to say, “never mind”
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
I just dont understand how you can just ignore whatever happened last season and say. Well if they played like they did in 07 then we’ll be fine.
It doesnt work like that.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t say that. Ever.
I just do not relate to the ever-growing percentage of Met fans who use the internet as a crying towel.
Don’t you enjoy baseball? Are 1969 and 1986 the only worthy Met years?
Do you find it impossible to believe that in 2009 Pelf had a downturn but 2008 MIGHT be what he is capable of?
Do you find it impossible that Maine might be healthy and be ready to be what he appeared to be developing into?
Do you find it impossible that Ollie MIGHT have another 2004 or 2007 in him?
And, other than Lackey, who did you want?
Wolf? Marquis? Pineiro? Garland? Sheets? Bedard? Harden? Davis? Smoltz? Pedro?
Which of these old, mediocre, or always-injured pitchers should we have overpaid for? And approximately what date would you have been hanging Omar out to dry for paying tens of millions for Pineiro or Marquis?
Why do no teams want Hudson every year?
Does signing perhaps the BEST available free agent, Bay, count for anything?
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
with Ollie yes I believe it is impossible (at least as a Met)
sure it is possible for all that to happen but not probable.
I mean the chances of that all happening (plus Beltran staying healthy, Reyes staying healthy and Wright getting his stroke back)
just adding Bay was not enough…unless of course Omar feels this season they wont make the playoffs so hell just hope for a miracle and not make any more bad signings…
trs86
2/8/2010-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
Oleo, look back at what the 2006 team looked like going in. Did you think that rotation would get us to the playoffs?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with Oleo here. All of them can stay healthy and play at their top forms, but IMO it’s highly unlikely. And even if all of them stay healthy AND play at their best, I don’t see this team winning the division with ALL of Phillies players playing healthy and playing their best.
I still think the Mets need a #2 SP.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
trs, but the competition has gotten a lot better since ’06 season. Phillies did not have Halladay AND have 2 WS appearance on their belt. On the other hand the Mets have 1 (or 2 depending on your view) epic collapses and a terrible season.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
True DND. But you also have to remember that the 1st week of July last season our injury plagued team was 1 game out.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
You are right, King of the Nattering Nabobs of Never-Ending Nonsense Negativity. I am sure the Beltran publicity has MAJORLY affected your life.
Hudson would have easily led us to the postseason, as he has done every year of his career…..his lightning fast-speed, commemorated by the Dodgers’ calling him Slo-Dog, would have led to the speedy team we are after!
And, when he is benched in August, his cheerleading skills would EASILY be worth another 2–3 runs a games!!
Not to mention the jealous 15–20 other teams who kept beating his door down with multi-year offers the last two years!!
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Rather harsh don’t you think?
He did say helped not guarantee a W.S. Title you know.
He also did say in his opinion.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
Yes sir, and I am sick to death of never-ending negativity.
Seems to me Met fans are becoming a tribe of childish whiners, who simply want to complain.
I don’t care for it.
And, of course, this is MY opinion.
The article from the Kranepool Society you linked to yesterday—calling the Wilpons worse than the Dolans and comparing them to M Donald Grant—might be the stupidest, most childish piece of drivel I have ever seen, but the day is young.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
the problem is our ticket prices and payroll dictate that of a WS contender.
our team as currently structured is not a WS contender.
that is why I am negative.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
You would whine if our payroll was 50 million or if it was 200 million.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
no you are just naive and stubborn
trs86
2/8/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
Stubborn yes, naive no.
Oh wait that was to Kingman.
Stubborn yes, naive no.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
I can live with that TRS.
Kind of puts me in good company.
stickguy
2/8/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
to be fair, I went and read that post about Beltran.
The title was buzz: inthis case, a piece written by Sherman (your first clue). MC went on the say that his perception (from his sources) was that it was not true about Beltran being furious.
The bigger issue was the headline was not clearly attributed, and was obvously there to garner attention.
But there really was no inconsistancy in MCs stance on the matter.
trs86
2/8/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
I think as I said this shows a growing trend of his that views are more important than facts or quality. I hope that never becomes the case here.
trs86
2/8/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
And here is why Cerrone continues to go with the media at every turn instead of speaking out like he used to.
“His legacy in New York is still strong. In a poll conducted by Metsblog.com, a popular fan site, Valentine received a 97 percent approval rating. The only obstacle is whether Wilpon and Minaya would consider Valentine too overwhelming.” Klapisch.
Views are much more important than personal opinion or even the truth.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
You really are hung up on him.
stickguy
2/8/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
I did read the comments section on the negativity post. A few posters (among the minority that seem to not be clinically insane) actually called the boss out for basically being exactly what he seemed confused about finding.
trs86
2/8/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, well the string did start with Cerrone right?
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Kingmans antics are exactly why Cerrone didnt want SOME of you posting on there anymore.
I presented a logical reason on why this team as currently structured is not a good team. the only thing he could respond with is immature namecalling and saracsm.
That is not what comment sections are for. Just b/c someone doesnt agree with you doesn’t make them wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and of you think Im wrong for expecting our top 3 position players and top 4 pitchers to ALL return to their top form please explain why it is impossible for them to not get hurt or play below their expected level again…
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
Because Jerry will go gangsta on them!
Sorry.. just couldn’t help myself…
stickguy
2/8/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
keeping individuals out of it, having kept up with the MC comments section (and many other sites that get a lot of activity), logical, rational and reasonable posts are few and far between, and they are usually trying to beat back the majority that fall much more into the immature namecalling and sarcasm catagory.
trs86
2/8/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
Hey I chose to ignore the fact that he committed blasphemy and compared this comment section to the gross ignorance displayed on MC agree board.
trs86
2/8/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Easy Oleo. We are a family here, you included. Even if we do yell at each other for smoking up the house now and then and eating all the casserole we still are all here for the same reason, to celebrate Grandma’s 88th … crap wrong speech.
Oleo, I am sure Kingman will admit your opinions are fine. It’s that over the years you have shown to be a cup half empty kind of guy and right now there are a lot of people with empty cups.
However, obviously this rotation could or could not sink us. Now is not the time, however, to be writing off the season and being depressed into a shell hating baseball. Now is the time to get up off the ground, forget Omar and the Wilpons and root on a team that needs your support more than ever. These players have been through even more than you have the last 3 years and are desperate to earn your approval again.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
Oleo — I tend to agree with you that we need an awful lot to break right for the Mets to be good and that it is unlikely to all happen the way we plan.
But you can say these things about everyteam. How do we know Cole Hamels or Brad Lidge are healthy? How do we know Granderson can play in the Bronx spotlight, etc.?
Also, while we can’t reasonably expect all of Maine, Pelfrey and Ollie to be at their best, we may also not be able to predict that Jon Niese or Fernando Nieve can come out of no where.
I don’t think anyone thinks the Mets have enough pitching.
I think some people are in wait and see mode; or hope for the best mode.
trs86
2/8/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I completely agree with everything you said. Holy Crap.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
Stop that.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
well i agree in part but if Granderson fails they have so many other weapons but the Yankees are also 100 times better than anyone else so thats irrelevant.
im just saying that our rotation right now makes us so weak that even with a strong lineup we are on the outside looking in
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
Agree totally with this.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
The thing that frustrates me the most is the fact that the Mets have failed to reach the Playoffs 3 years in a row and yet they are going into 2010 season with the basically same rotation. That’s why I am skeptical that this rotation will work. I think the Mets FO mentality of ‘hope for the best mode’ needs to stop. They should have done some thing this offseason to address the needs. Sure there weren’t enough talent on the FA market outside of Lackey that’s worth signing. But the fact that SPs like Vazquez, Halladay, and Edwin Jackson were dealt shows me that the talent was there. I just think the Mets were more reluctant to give up prospects because of their obsession in keeping them.
Honestly I think the Mets FO had no plan going into this offseason, but to sign a HR guy. And then let’s just see if any trade opportunity comes by rather than let’s try to make something happen.
I know we should all root for the Mets to do well. And I do too (I’m sure Oleo does too). But in order for them to do well, it’s the FO’s job to make them better and competitive. I just don’t think the Mets FO has done the job.
Anything can happen. Yes the Phillies can be hit with an injury bug. Yes, the Mets rotation can have the best year of their lives. But given what has taken in place the past 3 years, I just don’t see any breaks falling in favor of the Mets. IMO, with this payroll against the competition this team has, counting on luck is not the right way to approach the season.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
absolutely agree 100%. well said.
stickguy
2/8/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
hey, you said they had no plan, then you seemed to have described their plan to a “T”.
“sign a HR guy. And then let’s just see if any trade opportunity comes by rather than let’s try to make something happen.” + “the Mets were more reluctant to give up prospects because of their obsession in keeping them.” = the off season plan.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
LOL.. i guess you can look at it that way…
this sounds crazy, but i think signing of bay was more of PR move than anything. Jeff and Omar came out after the season and said that they will do anything and everything to fill their holes. so, they had to go out and make a splash. but i think the Mets FO were pretty clear that they don’t want to spend much more than that.
that’s why the case-by-case approach…
trs86
2/8/2010-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, I think it had more to do with the fact that LF has been a hole in the Mets lineup for most of the last decade. But hey why not make the only big move into a nothing move?
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
one god awful plan if you ask me…
trs86
2/8/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
Hey no one ask you. Haven’t you been paying attention? j/k
Yeah it may not have been the best plan and who knows if it was plan A.
I still think based on reports plan A was indeed Lackey. However, when it became clear that was not going to happen they moved on to the next of the big 3. I think they were for sure going to sign 1 of the big 3 and which one would determine the rest of their off-season. If we had gotten Lackey then they most likely would have ended up with Damon for LF (hypothetically if the Mets getting Lackey did not change the entire market) because he has been left without a deal.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
Really? Look at those guys traded and what was traded for them. Vasquez, think the Braves were going to trade with us? Halladay basically Johaned his way to Philly. Jackson got a lot for a guy with one good year. How does that prove that there was talent to trade for? Which one of those did you honestly think we could have gotten and for how much?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
I’m saying that if the Mets wanted, they could have given up the prospects to get a SP in return.
Braves not going to trade with us? Where did Frenchy come from? Halladay wanted to come to the Phillies from the get go, but the Mets certainly didn’t seem to care that the best pitcher in baseball is going to the rival. If the Mets offered the BJays more competitive offer, who knows? Halladay may not have come to the Mets, but certainly could have made things a lot harder for the BJays.
My point is that if the Mets were willing to apart with their prospects, #2 SP could have had this offseason.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
How do we know…
That the Mets could have given up their prospects?
Frenchy for Church is not the same as Vasquez or even Lowe.
That we did not offer the BJays a more competitive offer? Regardless, Halladay got to control where he went.
My point is you have no clue if your statement is true or not.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
But same goes to your statement too. all we can depend on are information coming out of media channels. I know your opinion on media channels aren’t great, but some of them are report accurate information. So far, I haven’t heard anything remotely close of the Mets involvement in ANY trade talks except their efforts to ship Castillo. So, my best guess is that the Mets have not offered anything competitive to the BJays or anybody else for that matter.
Even with the Braves, you don’t think there may have been a chance IF the Mets were dangling FMart and others? I mean they got Melky back. FMart is no Melky, but I’m sure there must’ve been a price that the Bravos liked. I just think the Mets were very reluctant to part ways with any of their prospects.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t remember the reports about the Mets and Halladay? I sure do.
I also remember the tons of reports on the Mets and the Reds as well as ones on the Mets and Royals. Which ones of those are true? I have no idea.
After that, what is out there? No I don’t think the Mets could have ever worked out a deal with the Braves for one of their starters.
Also, I think part of what you said is true. They don’t want to trade any of their top prospects unless the guy they get will be here long-term and will be guaranteed to help the team. Isn’t that the smart thing to do?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
The reports about the Mets and Halladay was that the Mets didn’t want to give up their young prospects. Sure Halladay didn’t want to come to the Mets anyways, but I think the Mets could have made the process much difficult than it did.
Reports on the Mets/Reds, Mets/Royals… who’s the #2 SP in any of these trade talks? AND have the Mets pulled a trigger on any of them? I mean, you and I agree that Arroyo would be a good fit.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
But who besides those guys was even out there? #2 pitchers are not traded often. Grave your assistance is requested. LOL.
CaseStreet
2/8/2010-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
I see where you are coming from. I too don’t expect much from our rotation when 4 of 5 are coming back from injuries and the 5th starter will be relative unknown Nieve or rookie Niese.
I think Kingman’s point is that there’s no use in crying over spilled milk since the off-season is pretty much done with and we have to hope for the best, since after all, the game is played on the field.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
but why should Omar get a pass…unless Omar feels this team cant compete this year and will look to bring in some prospects if we fall out he needs to be blasted for not addressing the rotation again.
not even Bedard or Wang or Sheets or some type of risk/reward guy…
stickguy
2/8/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
1 of the 3 R/R guys are still available. Of course, he still hasn’t thrown a pitch for any teams, but there is a reason he is still available (the “risk” part!)
I also think there will be another SP added to the hopper at some point by ST. No idea who though. Maybe this years Livan or garcia type.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
and the Mets have the money to take that risk!!!!
trs86
2/8/2010-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
Do they? So they should just throw whatever it takes at an oft-injured Sheets?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
why not? i mean it’s ‘let’s hope for the best’ plan anyways. no?
trs86
2/8/2010-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
Because 10-15M, whatever it would have taken, could be spent other places either this year or next year?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
It took 1 year deal to get Sheets. So next year doesn’t matter. And what other possible moves can Omar make that would cost $15M? And in-season moves probably won’t take place till June at the earliest.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
I just don’t think it is time to just start throwing money at guys with that much risk. Also, do we know what it would have taken to get Sheets here?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
But if he was that risky, why in the world Billy Beane and the A’s throw half their payroll at him? There must have been something that they saw.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Because it’s a much easier for them. They can just trade him at the deadline and move on. In NY things are not that easy.
Also, Billy has been known to throw money away on washed up risky players anyway. He never gets enough flack for bringing in some of those types with his limited funds.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Sheets doesn’t qualify in that category because with a $10m contract the risk was as high as the reward.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Right because Wang has signed. Bedard wanted to come to NY and could handle the pressure. Sheets we should have paid a crap load of money for a guy who has not pitched in a year. Besides he said the Lord wanted him to be in Oakland. Hard to mess with that.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
well if the Mets gave 10.1 mil the Lord would have wanted him in NY too.
and Wang wont be here…i dont see it
trs86
2/8/2010-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
OK so now you know that Sheets would have rather come to the pressure cooker of NY for only .1M more and you can hold that against Omar and the Mets? Seriously? How do you know that it would not have taken much more? How do you know that the A’s would not have countered the Mets offer? Again, I think this is what Kingman is talking about. I agree he may have came across as too strong but perhaps your anti-Mets FO rhetoric is also coming off too strong?
You follow up this great revelation of the Mets being able to get Sheets for 10.1 with your “Wang wont be here”. Thanks, can you tell me which games the Mets will win in DC? I would like to go see them win a game this year.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
im just saying that Sheets took the best offer he can get. The mets werent offering 5 million, let alone 10 so thats the end of that.
sure theoretically the Mets could get Wang, but you and I both know the mets arent taking going to give him an MLB deal. its not how the Wilpons do business.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
How do the Wilpons do business? The only thing we do know about how they do business is consistently spend more than any NL team out there.
Don’t you think that a guy like Freddy Garcia would be a good example of Wang? Perhaps Livan or Elduque?
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
Do you really think Ben Sheets is an automatic to make this team better this season?
You must if you want to pay him $10m.
Recall that Jason Jennings had the same injury as Sheets, promptly reinjured himself after surgery and has been a cadaver on the mound ever since.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I was for Sheets when I thought it would be 5-8M. Even though, as you and I discussed at length, I thought he may get more than that. What he got was ridiculous.
It really seems Omar can’t win. One season he is criticized for handing out bad, risky or ridiculous contracts. The next he is criticized for not doing them.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
All fair points.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
one year deals carry no long term impact.
If Sheets were to blow his arm out in ST, all you lose is money…which the Mets have plenty of
im not saying that the Mets should have signed him but why the Mets cant give Wang or Bedard 2 mil guaranteed is ridiculous.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
Why do you think that magically .5M will make a big difference for Bedard and he would rather pitch in NY for .5M more? Also, have you not read the reports that there is NO timetable for his return and he may not pitch until June?
Same with Wang. The reason no one has signed him yet is that no one has a clue when he will be able to pitch.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Every scout’s report on Wang is that his injuries have removed the control over his sinker, thus making him useless.
Bedard? A head case, has not had a career remotely as successful as Sheets, and by most accounts is an aloof, lazy, guy who is not well-liked and has never worked hard to rehab his injuries.
I commend Omar for not overpaying–or even paying–for these guys.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
I think everyone gave him props in the Bay signing and many agree that Escobar if he regains his old form may be the steal of the winter.
Many have applauded him for not giving in to Piniero or even a Molina. I think not signing a Garland was probably his biggest mistake.
Even though I have a different opinion I do think many felt he should of signed Garland.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think he could sign Garland, not with out vastly overpaying.
From day 1 Garland said he wanted to be on a West coast team.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/8/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
If the plan is ‘let’s hope for the best’, why not take a risk on Sheets? I mean the downside is that you lose $10M and have the current rotation.
How are they Yankees doing their business? They outspend everyone. and to be fair, the Mets have done that too. But what’s another $10M which they were going to spend on Molina/Pineiro anyways?
After all, Billy Beane isn’t all that stupid either. If he’s willing to throw that much money on this guy, he has some value to it. So, I think it really came down to $1-2M from the Mets FO perspective.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry pal, all you do is whine and complain.
I admit that I can be childish sometimes, but it is approaching spring training. What is the point of your attitude? What does it contribute? We all know we didn’t sign a starter.
I do understand that coming here does in fact expose me to whining and complaining, which I really studiously avoid in other facets of life.
Should I just move on and not make rude responses? Sure I should. And from this post on, I promise I will do better at it. I am a man of my word.
But you are one of a VERY few people here who absolutely, positively, NEVER have anything to say that is remotely positive.
Fong is negative a lot, but he also has a massive base of knowledge, can be funny as hell, and talks about all kinds of topics.
Sure, you have a right to say whatever you want, and I will try to ignore the ceaseless, useless negativity a lot better.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
And Cerrone banned me for a reason, but surely not for the reason you mention.
I still read comments over there, and amidst the sea of silliness and childish whining and the “Why can’t we sign Bay and Holliday and Lackey and everyone else?” kids, there ARE a few people who rightly smack down the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity, on a daily basis, all day long.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
True. Oleo needs to understand the beginnings of this site.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
And the concept that mindless negativity is utterly useless and annoying to many well-adjusted adults.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
I understand the beginnings I was there.
Cerrone didnt want people having private 1 on 1 conversations and belittling all of his commenters which many of you did. he didnt want Rusty b/c he never spoke about the actual comment Matt posted, he just liked doing his mets infamy and the group of 10 or so people acted as if they were more knowledgable and everyone knew more than them.
you formed your own site b/c he got too full of himself, distanced himself from his readers and b/c he shut down the comment section.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
You got the last paragraph right and the 2nd one completely wrong. In fact if you were here in the beginning when we had the chat with MC you would know that your 2nd paragraph was completely wrong.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Bingo
trs86
2/8/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
Also, most of the authors on here who are banned from MCB are banned because of their affiliation with this blog. Not because of past transgressions.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Completely true
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
OK, your last paragraph is factually correct!!
Nice!!
Don’t criticize Rusty–what’s the point of that?
And again, the few rational, knowledgeable grown-ups there today DO constantly belittle the kids and Nabobs on a constant, daily basis.
Cerrone doesn’t care though, as long as he is not challenged.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
MC has stated on his site as well as in conversations here and other places that he does not understand the need for comments and they were overall unimportant in the scheme of his blog. The most important thing for his blog is hits.
This blog is the polar opposite. We completely understand the need for comments, it’s what the site is based on and why we have so many comments and commenters. Comments are what drives this site and may even be more important than many of our post because of the incredible community exchange of ideas we have. The least important thing on this blog right now is sacrificing that for hits.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
Luis Castillo loves to sacrifice hits for bunts.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
OLEO here is the thing and you take as you want but MC didn’t like being called out on his blog.
You think most people agree with him so that is why you rarely see comments calling him out? It is because they are moderated out.
Test that theory call him out directly and see how far you get before you too are sitting waiting to be moderated.
I called him out in a comment minutes after he posted it and within minutes 3 tops I no longer was able to post and when I emailed to find out why he gave me excuse after excuse with the promise Oh don’t worry I will get to it a.s.a.p. which was B.S. and I eventually told him to at least MAN UP and if you ban me cause you don’t like what I said then own up and stop hiding like the punk he is behind technical difficulties.
1 ON 1 conversations my a$$ he didn’t give a crap till it started harping on how he was factually incorrect or complaints that his comments section changes sucked and his spelling sucked then all of a sudden it bothered him.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
True, or the fact that he refused to give up control long enough to have a moderator that could have gotten control over the board.
Instead many of us had to do that for him by constantly putting a joke like Alex in his place.
stickguy
2/8/2010-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
another random thought for those that are looking at the roster as it stands today and deciding they don’t have enough talent to make the playoffs.
Ever year, including 2006, the roster out of ST (never mind in early February) changes quite a bit by the end of the season. Sometimes substantially.
So even if some of the question mark guys get hurt or bomb out, they will be replaced, and quite possibly by someone better (via a trade, calling up a guy form the minors that is hot, or even getting lucky with a bench guy stepping in).
I just think we really need to at least get to opening day to evaluate the team, since that is what has to play the games, not the off season (and the Met’s have a history of winning the off season, or battle of the back pages, and not following it up with a winning year!)
metsfan4decades
2/8/2010-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
If I remember correctly we used something like 11/12 starting pitchers that 2006, right?
So agree with what you’re looking at opening day is not usually what you wind up with – or what helped you get where you are at the end of the season – whether good or bad.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
we also had Delgado, Floyd, Valentin, Lo Duca and Reyes, Beltran and Wright all healthy and at the top of their game.
not to mention 2 15 game winners and a fantastic bullpen…
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
No one expected Valentin to perform like that.
And Floyd was hurt and ineffective most of the season. Another unexpected contribution came from Endy Chavez, who replaced Floyd much of the season and din’t have much of a resume preceding that year.
That team also did not have the most impressive rotation. There was no clear ace because Pedro was injured much of the year so Galvine assumed the role by default (pitching the best he did as a Met) and the rest of the rotation was filled in by #4 types like Trachsel, El Duque and a young John Maine.
Look at some of the clowns who started games for them that season: Dave Williams, Ollie who was awful, Alay Soler, Victor Zambrano…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/2006.shtml
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
even if you consider the rotations to be same (which i dont)
the bullpen was incredible (just look at the ERA) and the lineup was far superior.
not to mention the division was MUCH weaker then compared to now…
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
The bullpen was definitely strong, no doubt. I suppose this year’s has a chance to be good too. But as with the rest, a lot will need to break right (Escobar’s health, etc.)
I think this lineup could be just as strong, though maybe not with as much power. The 2006 team got very lucky with Valentin. Could we get lucky this year with Thole?
trs86
2/8/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
Does not have to be Thole. Why couldn’t it be a full year of an improving Murphy or Francouer? To fit in the Valentin mold it could be the Cat?
stickguy
2/8/2010-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
hey, he does play 2B.
and someone is going to have to do it if (when?) Slappy breaks down.
Can he possibly stay healthy all year again? That to me was the biggest shocker of 2009, slappy being the only vet not to hit the DL!
trs86
2/8/2010-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. I think Castillo, you have to admit this too, is getting too much of a bad rap. He is not a great defender, can’t hit it out of the IF but rebounded well and worked his ass off to get back into shape and prove himself. According to fangraphs, the site we use to bash him so much, he was worth more than he got paid last year. If his biggest detractor is fangraphs it looks like we are even more negative on him than they are.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
The bullpen TURNED OUT to be incredible.
Again, you have excuses for everything. We are all saying it would take a very good year from a lot of people for the Mets to be successful. It also took those same things for the 2007 and 2008 Phillies along with some luck from the Mets.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
the difference is the mets are coming into the season with Maine, Pelfrey, Ollie as the 2-4 SP. Pelfrey had ERA over 5. Maine had 15 starts and 4.50 ERA. Ollie was a mess.
its just too much to expect them to pitch their best baseball after all coming off subpar years.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:13pm at 3:13 pm (UTC -4)
Look at that 2006 rotation. Seriously. It was terrible.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
What did the 2006 starters do in 2005 that made you optimistic about them? You never heard of John Maine, Ollie Perez was a Pirate and was pretty awful, Glavine was so-so in 2005, Trachsel missed most of 2005, El Duque was awful in 2005, Victor Zambrano was Victor Zambrano in 2005…
Only Pedro, like Johan, gave us any reason to believe for 2006 and then he went and got hurt.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Besides that if I remember a lot of those guys did not start the season in the SR.
It was
Pedro
Glavine
Trax (as the damn #3 and you thought we have problems now)
Bannister (started game #2 of the season, seriously?)
Zambrano
What did any of those guys (besides Glavine and he was our “Ace”) do in 2005 to make you warm and fuzzy?
trs86
2/8/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
Poor Cliff Floyd. I hope 2006 was not the top of his game.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
I Think Oleo should be an author he expresses 3 opinions and it generates such a buzz. Imagine if he actually wrote an article.
Lemme see so if your negative Kingman is sick and tired of you. King I must be driving you nuts.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not about being negative NJ. It’s the fact that so many have doomed the season before it begins because it does not look like 2006 at the end of the season. It’s the beginning.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sure Kingman can clear things up for himself but how am I to interpret “I am sick to death of never-ending negativity” to mean he is only referring to how you put it,
“It’s the fact that so many have doomed the season before it begins because it does not look like 2006 at the end of the season. It’s the beginning.”
When King said it in reply to this by Oleo,
well the major frustration, in my opinion, is 3 things:
1) the failure to improve the starting rotation for the 2nd consecutive year
2) the PR failures with Beltran’s injury
3) players that could really help us like Hudson, Garko etc. signing elsewhere for a nominal amount of money…
trs86
2/8/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
I will let Kingman respond on that for himself. However, your point was “Lemme see so if your negative Kingman is sick and tired of you. King I must be driving you nuts.
”
That part, as Kingman and I have discussed, is not true and what I was responding to.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
I think that is best because if I read I am sick and tired of negativity. Then I take that as tired of people being negative.
Not that it matters to me just that since you felt the need to reply I wanted to be sure we are clear what my view of that is.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-4:36pm at 4:36 pm (UTC -4)
Mr North, as I have stated repeatedly, I think mind-numbingly repetitive negativity is useless and worthless, and is actually bad for people. What purpose does it serve?
It IS the beginning of the season and we have NO IDEA what will happen. We signed Bay, and people are saying it is meaningless, it is PR, we had the worst offseason. OMG get a life whoever says those things.
As TRS says, how can we doom the season in February? Maybe Reyes is MVP. Maybe Ollie wins 17. Maybe Igarashi and Escobar and Fogg pitch well, maybe Parnell grows up and maybe the pen is lights-out. Maybe Frenchy is happy and motivated and reprises his best year. Maybe Pelf and Maine win 12–14 each. Maybe Omar spends the money he did not waste on CRAP on GOOD players in-season.
I don’t know Oleo, but for the last couple of years, it seems that almost every comment I have ever seen from him is negativity, and usually the same negativity. Sure he has a right to express it. As I have a right to express my sometimes impatient and equally useless childish responses. Useless, insightless, repetitive negativity brings out the worst in me. Guilty.
You and I, on the other hand, while we have disagreed for sure, I also remember often having humorous and positive exchanges, dating back to Metsblog days.
Fongy, who I sometimes bitterly disagree with, is one of my favorites here, because he, along with his frequent repetitive negativity, is also a walking Met history museum, with tons of great memories and a wonderful sense of humor.
“the failure to improve the starting rotation for the 2nd consecutive year”–Lackey was the only remotely serious improvement. Had Omar spent money on ANY of the other old/mediocre/injured guys, we’d be reading Oleo whine about them soon.
“the PR failures with Beltran’s injury”–?? Who the hell cares? The actual INJURY is mega-important, but if people list the PR failure here as their 2nd biggest problem, well, have a nice day.
“players that could really help us like Hudson, Garko etc. signing elsewhere for a nominal amount of money…” Garko maybe could have helped. Hudson? I refuse to re-debate the most overhyped, overrated, fairly good, aging, injury-prone, barely better than Slappy, player in the world.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t speak to Oleo’s past comments all I can speak to his comment today that taken by itself your reply seemed harsh.
He had expressed 3 things that he said was in his opinion and none of them was that the Mets were doomed in 2010.
If you and him have a history where his pattern is to condemn the team before the season is over then I too agree that given the current roster that is a bit too extreme for us as fans to be saying.
I guess the question is then if that was Oleo’s intention to suggest that the 2010 Mets season is over b4 it even started.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-5:05pm at 5:05 pm (UTC -4)
For the record it is my opinion also that Minaya dropped the ball at not signing Lackey.
I hope that looking back on it Minaya will be proven right by not signing him. I really do hope I am wrong for the team’s sake.
For the record it is my opinion also that while the PR failures has no impact to what happens on the field on a game by game basis. It does not help a team that wants to be called a 1st class organization on and off the field. Call me crazy but I would like to not have my team be the butt of others jokes in baseball. Especially when we can’t strike back with a “your just jealous because we won the W.S.”.
For the record it is my opinion that bringing back players like Tatis would not be the route I went but in the big picture if Tatis becomes a big part of 2010 it will be at Murphy’s expense which will be a bad thing I believe. Also Hudson while better than Castillo in my opinion his not signing with us will not be the reason the Mets fail in 2010.
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-5:18pm at 5:18 pm (UTC -4)
Cannot disagree with almost any of this.
One thing though–maybe Lackey just really wanted to stay in the AL and/or play with the Red Sox.
If so, then it is not even 1% Omar’s fault.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-5:26pm at 5:26 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe and maybe Minaya wanted to sign him but ownership told him no which would also not make it Minaya’s fault.
We can maybe to death that’s for sure.
Until I hear concrete evidence otherwise I will hold Minaya responsible.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
i would be a bit more positive if Omar had address our most glaring need!!!!!
trs86
2/8/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
I completely understand that. However, would you also admit that Lackey was not going to happen? Would you feel much more positive if Pieneiro was brought in?
Perhaps if Sheets was brought in?
I would not feel one bit more comfortable with the rotation if either of those guys were brought in.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
there are other pitches besides Lackey and Piniero.
While I admit i have nothing to base this one besides my gut feeling, I just feel that Omar turned down offers or neglected to pursue them b/c of his blind faith in the current rotation and overrating the prospects (especially Niese)
trs86
2/8/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
“While I admit i have nothing to base this one besides my gut feeling”
And that my friend is why so many people jump on your comments on here. If I post anything based on indigestion then I too will feel the wrath.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
well do u think the Mets will sign Wang?
trs86
2/8/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
That is not what you were even referring to. Your point is:
“While I admit i have nothing to base this one besides my gut feeling, I just feel that Omar turned down offers or neglected to pursue them b/c of his blind faith in the current rotation and overrating the prospects (especially Niese)”
You have absolutely no proof here at all yet proclaim it to be the truth and are very upset about it.
As for will the Mets sign Wang? I have no idea.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-5:50pm at 5:50 pm (UTC -4)
i am saying that the Mets do not seem to have any interest in spending money on a SP. Considering all the SP pitchers that were available, its safe to say the Mets arent spending.
Given the horrendous rotation we have now, I cant understand why at least someone wasnt brought in.
I have no proof that Wang wont be in NY or that Omar doesnt pull a blockbuster tomoro but given Omar’s past offseason trends, its a pretty good indication that he’s done with MLB deals…
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
True or False Wright in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
True or False Reyes in 2010: 100 plus runs scored
True or False Castillo in 2010: 150 plus hits
True or False Murphy in 2010: 85 plus rbi’s
True or False Bay in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
True or False Francouer in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
True or False Beltran in 2010: play in 100 plus games
True or False Santana in 2010: win 18 games
True or False Perez in 2010: win 15 games
True or False Pelfrey in 2010: win 15 games
True or False Maine in 2010: win 15 games
True or False KRod in 2010: has 45 saves
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
True
False
False
False
True
False
True
False
False
False
False
False
trs86
2/8/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny you missed a few. Check below for the correct answers.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t cheat on true or false exams or any other type of test.
We don’t have significantly different expectations. I would not be shocked if Pelfrey broke through and won 15 — he’s the most likely of the group behind Johan anyway.
Reyes will score 100 if he is healthy. I’m just betting he won’t be able to play 160 games as he usually does.
And the only reason I didn’t pick Santana to win 18 is because I’m dubious about the bullpen and all the bakc luck he has pitched in as a Met.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, I know Wanny. The ones you “missed” I was just as likely to pick the other way too. If I had spent more time on it.
njstuckintx
2/8/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
would the converse of your name be Lelly Dykman? Just curious.
Based on the T/F predictions, looks to be a long season.
wannybackstra
2/8/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
I suppose you’re right on both accounts.
But my T/F picks still leave open the possibility that Maine, Pelf and Ollie all win 14 games and that Reyes scores 99 and Francoeur drives in 98. Season would look fine if all that happened!
trs86
2/8/2010-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe, a lot of things went wrong in 2006 too. A lot of things went right in 2007.
trs86
2/8/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
True
True
False
False
True
False
False
True
False
True
False
False
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Hmm interesting indeed.
CaseStreet
2/8/2010-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
All true except for Murphy and Frenchy.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:01pm at 3:01 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, you are a positive little fell aren’t you?
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
True
True
False
False
False
False
True
False
False
False
False
False
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
True Wright in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
VERY True Reyes in 2010: 100 plus runs scored
False Castillo in 2010: 150 plus hits
False (he’ll have 82) Murphy in 2010: 85 plus rbi’s
True Bay in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
False Francouer in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
False Beltran in 2010: play in 100 plus games
True Santana in 2010: win 18 games
True!! Perez in 2010: win 15 games
False Pelfrey in 2010: win 15 games
False Maine in 2010: win 15 games
False KRod in 2010: has 45 saves
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
I’m surprised on how so many feel KRod won’t get 45 saves.
trs86
2/8/2010-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
I think it’s hard to get 45 saves. Yes I know he got like 100 a couple of years ago but I don’t think the Mets will push him that much.
ceetar
2/8/2010-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
True Wright in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
True Reyes in 2010: 100 plus runs scored
True Castillo in 2010: 150 plus hits
True Murphy in 2010: 85 plus rbi’s
True Bay in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
False Francouer in 2010: 100 plus rbi’s
True Beltran in 2010: play in 100 plus games
True Santana in 2010: win 18 games
True Perez in 2010: win 15 games
True Pelfrey in 2010: win 15 games
False Maine in 2010: win 15 games
False KRod in 2010: has 45 saves
Not while Manuel’s mismanaging the bullpen. Frankie works best with regular work, not 2 days, 4 days off, a day, 5 days off. I know part of that was the nature of never having a lead, but Manuel never seems to know how best to use his relievers, and doesn’t seem to understand how rest works in for players.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
It will be interesting to see where the Mets end up if they can achieve those goals.
trs86
2/8/2010-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
Great discussion guys. Gotta go coach some basketball. Oleo, seriously bud lighten up. Your opinions are welcome on here. However, this comment section as I well know is not for those who get easily offended. Just state your thoughts but be prepared to have something to back them up with.
How about this activity for tonight? You come up with a positive comment about the Mets organization and this off-season and I will come up with a negative one and we can defend them tomorrow?
Kingman 26
2/8/2010-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
I hate Jerry Manuel.
I think he is a terrible manager, a poor motivator, a selfish and spineless non-leader, a two-faced back-stabber, a short-sighted weakling, a poor strategist wedded to ancient and weak strategies, and these are his good points.
See, I can be negative too!!
stickguy
2/8/2010-6:06pm at 6:06 pm (UTC -4)
and this, my friend, can be the lead segment on the preier episode of “positiviality on parade”. As in, I have positiviality out the wing wang that Jerry is not a good manager.
DIscuss.
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-6:02pm at 6:02 pm (UTC -4)
I dont get offended but its ridiculous that people like Kingman call someone not a fan b/c they criticise the team…just b/c i dont have have faith in the team especially its management doesnt mean im less of a fan then you are…
Ill give praise when its due, (Santana trade, K-Rod Signing, Francouer trade) but our team is currently the joke of the MLB (besides the Pirates).
Its hard to be positive when your rotation (which has sucked in 09) is EXACTLY the same going into the season…
stickguy
2/8/2010-6:19pm at 6:19 pm (UTC -4)
I honestly don’t think Kong or the others ever said anyone wasn’t a fan.. That’s different than wondering why so much negativity. If anything, someone that wasn’t a fan A) wouldn’t be posting here and B) probably would not care in the least!
I personally don’t care about the laughingstock of MLB nonsense, since it is fueled by the media whores. I think that other teams know the Mets still have talent and are a threat, so they are probaby happy to see the drama, since if the FO could really focus on the core mission (winning cgmaes) they will be a force to be reckoned with.
and BB, especially pitching, is like investments. Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.
Omar obviously feels that the rotation underperformed for correctable reasons that were, well, corrected, and that the 2010 rotation will be good to go (as opposed to the 2009 version, which came and went).
oleosmirf
2/8/2010-6:28pm at 6:28 pm (UTC -4)
and I adamantly disagree with Omar in that Ollie is not correctable or even worth correcting.
I expect Santana to be injury free and get 16-17 W and an ERA around 3.25
I expect Pelfrey to rebound not as good as he was in 08 but somewhere along 13-14 W and an ERA around 4.
I expect Maine to pitch around 25 games with a trip or 2 to the DL and get around 12 W and an ERA around 4.25
I expect Ollie to have an ERA around 6 and be out of the rotation by June
I expect Niese to be in AAA, Nieve in the pen and some dark horse candidate (like Livan last year) to be the #5 SP.
Even with our top 5 lineup (in the NL) I dont believe it will be able to overcome the rotation and the suspect bullpen…
trs86
2/8/2010-7:20pm at 7:20 pm (UTC -4)
My point is that all that is over and done with. Every off-season there will be things we agree with and disagree with. Things we think we know more and things we find out later that we did not have a clue.
However, now is the time that we forget what managment has done or has not done and start cheering on a team that desperately wants and needs to prove itself to the fans. They can’t control what management does and get stuck in the middle. They could not make any move except play their ass off.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-9:29pm at 9:29 pm (UTC -4)
Rooting on your team is not going to be a problem for me at least. It will be not wondering what could of been whenever the team struggles.
If the team struggles then for every game they lose it will push the idea of are they struggling because of Minaya or are they struggling because they are simply not that good?
The answer in either case will not bold well for the Front Office.
I know you just want to get past the disagreements of the off season and focus on how well the team can be and rooting them on.
I think once Spring Training starts that will be much easier to do.
I do feel though that after 3 years of disappointment it is imperative that Minaya reaps the rewards of his decisions this off-season. I don’t want to think what will happen if his decisions prove to be the wrong ones.
Let’s Go Mets in 2010!!! How does the slogan goes? We believe in comebacks? A comeback would be sweet indeed.
trs86
2/8/2010-11:01pm at 11:01 pm (UTC -4)
To me if the Mets don’t make the playoffs Omar and Jerry are gone regardless if it was their fault or what they did or did not do this past off-season.
I just think at this point me move on to what they can do from this point forward to get back to the playoffs.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2010-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
I think most will agree with you that if the Mets don’t make the playoffs Omar and Jerry are gone regardless if it was their fault or what they did or did not do this past off-season.
Asfar as moving on from this point forward, I’ll leave that for each individual to decide. Like I said for me rooting on the team will not be a problem it’s not wondering what could of been if and when the team struggles that will be my problem.
I mean when I write something these are my thoughts regarding the team and I simply can’t bury them or ignore them. If others can God Bless them I am not there yet.
No matter how much others may hate it.
For me it may take watching Murphy simply hit a double down the line or watching Santana pitch a 1-2-3 inning or even the sound of Howie calling a game on the radio.
I need to find that happy place lol that will make me forget how betrayed I personally feel by Minaya.