I’m baffled at the number of positions on the Mets that will be “up for grabs†in Spring Training this season. Sometimes competition for a position can be a good thing – it can light a fire under a player that may need the pressure to succeed. But most of the time, I believe it shows inherent weaknesses in a roster and can make a player doubt himself. Omar Minaya set out to fix the holes on the roster this offseason, but there are more positions up for grabs this season than last!
Santos Should Start
Catcher: Josh Thole or Omir Santos?
I don’t understand why there’s competition at this position. I was certain that the team signed Chris Coste almost solely to mentor Thole in AAA for at least half the season. This was a notion I firmly backed at the time, and I’m still in support of this plan. Thole is a converted catcher and could use some more time learning the position in an environment with less pressure than the Big Apple. We know what we’re going to get out of Santos, and I think it’s fine as a short-term solution. Please Omar and Jerry, just let Thole have some more time to develop. Don’t rush him.
Murphy Must Make it
First Base: Daniel Murphy or Mike Jacobs?
I can’t even believe this is in debate, but according to Omar the two players will compete for the starting spot. Daniel Murphy may not be a superstar, but he has the potential to hit for average and play a decent first base. Mike Jacobs can hit home runs. He can’t hit for average, he strikes out a ton, and word has it that his fielding is well below average. So why the need for a competition? If it’s to light a fire under Murphy, then Omar must never have met the kid. Murphy’s going to work his arse off to become a better player, maybe even working too hard.
Pagan Promises to Prevail
Center Field (while Beltran is out): Angel Pagan or Gary Matthews Jr?
Oy vei! Gary Matthews Jr has been one of the worst outfielders over the past two seasons in all of major league baseball. He can’t hit (OPS under .700 both of the last two years) and he can’t field (UZR -9.3 and -14.5) – he has no place starting on a team. Angel Pagan may be injury prone as well as prone to make an occasional boneheaded mistake, but he’s an otherwise very solid player, despite his lack of sustained starting experience. In 376 plate appearances last season for the Mets, Pagan hit for an OPS of .837 with an UZR of 5.8. Angel Pagan with a broken leg may be a better option in CF than GMJ.
Fifth Starter: Fernando Nieve or Jon Niese (or others)?
This is actually the only competing position I understand. Fifth starter spots on teams are often in competition because so many pitchers can be close to the fifth best starter on a team. I’d be fine if Omar and Jerry pick either Nieve or Niese for the role. Nieve was extremely solid last season in his few starts with the Mets and Niese may be developing into a solid middle of the rotation guy. With all the potential short-comings of the Mets, I actually like the fifth starter options.
What I really don’t understand is why Omar is adding question marks where there shouldn’t be any. We know that in all likelihood the starters at catcher, 1B, and CF will be Santos, Murphy, and Pagan – so why make these players doubt themselves? None of these three needs a fire lit under him; from what I understand they’re all hard-working guys who want to win.
There’s no roster negativity going on here. I’m absolutely fine with the team using Santos, Murphy, and Pagan as starters as well as Nieve/Niese. It’s the management decisions that I seriously question. And despite these questions, I do have reasonable faith the in the end the right decisions will be made. I just hope the Spring Training question marks don’t leave their mark on Jerry, prompting him to dilly-dally during the regular season at various positions. I’m a huge believe in a set line-up with stability, and the first step in getting that is deciding on the team’s starters and sticking with them.
148 comments
stickguy
2/16/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know how much is actual competition (may the best man win!), how much is lip service (maybe just pumping up the long shots?), and how much has some other purpose only Jerry and Omar can fathom.
But, to your positions, I really, really don’t think that Thole is competing for the job with Omir. Might be splitting hairs, but while there is a chance that Thole could win the job, he isn’t actually competing for it. Now, maybe Riggans could have a huge spring and take it over?
CF? I really hope that is just to give Pagan a little poke to stay focused and work hard, combined with keeping GMjr. from being too grumpy. I just have a bad feeling that Jermar might actually be dumb enough to start GM. Hard to believe, but with those 2? Never know.
I am surprised at 1B, but I guess considering the options (and since Jacobs is 1 of them, Carter better be too (evans also), since defense is apparently not a concern), I guess it is fair. I still think Jacobs is still just a fall back in case Murphy gets hurt or absolutely bombs in ST, and maybe just a little poke to make Murphy work hard (but as Pris notes, not really needed).
5th starter is, and should be, wide open.
I still think they should snag Lopez on the cheap while they likely can, and make 2B into a tryout also, but the team does not seem to agree. Better hope Havens is ready soon, since if Luis goes down, they are going to be hung out to dry (since I really, really don’t think Tatis or COra can be a LT starter at 2B)
njstuckintx
2/16/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Nice synopsis.
trs86
2/16/2010-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
Actually I think with this group they are all good spots for competition. Yes it would be great if we did not have competitions and had great guys there. However, just giving positions to guys because they played it last year is not something we can afford to do in my point. It is possible that Murphy and Santos improve from last year, it’s also possible that they will not improve at all. In my opinion they did well enough last year to earn a spot in the competition and be the favorites going in, they have not earned the right to have no competition.
prismo
2/16/2010-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
I understand your point, but who’s their competition?
Thole could greatly benefit from having even just half a season in AAA to work with a veteran catcher and Mike Jacobs really just isn’t good. While Santos and Murphy may be not be the ideals at their positions, I don’t see how the other options are better options.
ceetar
2/16/2010-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
I don’t see Murphy losing the job to anyone, I just hope Manuel doesn’t decide on some inane platoon. I wouldn’t b e totally against Jacobs instead of TAtis off the bench.
I just don’t have a lot of faith in Santos, and I’d much rather have Thole work with a veteran catcher like Coste or Blanco in Flushing than Santos floundering around and doing a bad job all around.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Obviously I would like their counterparts to be better, however, Jacobs career averages are better than Murphy’s stats last season. His 2008 he had a much better OPS+, we discussed that one yesterday and don’t mean to start that one up again.
As for Santos and Thole, Santos in his minor league career never did what Thole did last year. If his defense proves to be as good then let him learn in the bigs with Blanco instead of Coste in the minors.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Especially since catching Santana and Pelfrey and these guys will be important to learn as well if he’s really the catcher of the future.
stickguy
2/16/2010-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
agreed. I just wish that some of the guys supplying the competition weren’t so craptastic.
I would feel much better having stud prospects or young guys with ML experience just waiting for a FT gig pushing to take jobs from placeholder types instead.
metsfan4decades
2/16/2010-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
From everything I’ve been reading, Thole’s offense is not in question – being ML ready – but more his defense. And if the concern with Santos, which was originally reported to be from a pitcher’s perspective, calling a good game, framing a pitch, etc. – then how is it that Thole would be any better in that regard – how can he be ready to be an improvement over Santos in that area?
Much as I like Thole, I think he needs to start out in AAA come April.
ceetar
2/16/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
You just said it, he’s probably not an improvement defensive, but he won’t be worse offensively and will get better.
Defensively, while Santos will still be crappy in September, if Thole is here all season he’ll likely be better.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
I am starting to change my mind on this one as well. I think the competition will be good. I am not saying release Santos. But I also think Thole may deserve the chance to take it.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
This stuff will resolve itself in spring anyway. I mean if Santos is hitting .188 can yo ureally bring him North?
trs86
2/16/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
True, but there is also the case for ST being too small of a sample against inferior pitching.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
Do you think they will be looking at who works with the pitchers best over who hits more to decide who goes North?
trs86
2/16/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
I think you hit it with the defense and working with the pitchers.
Also, would it be wise if they do put up similar stats to try and trade Santos? I think a team could see him as a decent backup.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
I completely agree w/ that trs
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
ST is too small of a sample size. You have to look at what they did the year before as well.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
but if his spring matches his career more than it matches his fluke 2009, you have to be hesitant.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Don’t forget the Set Up competition. I know most teams don’t have a set SU guy, but last year, it was very important that the Mets had Putz as the SU/occasional closer.
I don’t know why, but I have a really big gut feeling that Jacobs will be the starting 1B while Murphy rides the pine. IMO, if Omar and Jerry really were initially planning on Murph as the regular 1B, they wouldn’t have waited until two weeks ago to call Keith and ask him to spend a couple of days training Murphy. That should’ve been the plan from October.
It seems to me that they were hoping on Delgado but his hip wouldn’t cooperate. Now they probably feel lucky to have found Jacobs and plan on really taking a look at him at 1B, since he has more experience playing 1B and is more of a six hole hitter than Murphy, allowing Frenchy to hit 7th (which is where they have said they want him to hit).
Plus, with everyone so enamored with Ike, Murph will probably be relegated to the DeRosa role anyway and I doubt any team will value Murphy as a 1B. I just don’t get why they didn’t have this planned out earlier in the offseason.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
It was the plan since October, but it’s Keith and offseason and you know how that is. They were supposed to meet around christmas time I think and the schedules didn’t mesh.
The way they treat/use Murphy worries me more than silly rumors about being pissed off at Beltran or Madoff scandals.
Because you’re right, why are they so confused with Murphy? It’s not just this spring, which you can try to claim is just them hedging their bets, but even last year they seemed to have no idea what to do with him. Even after they put him at first base they had no backup plan for if he did well and Delgado _did_ in fact return.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
On SNY Hot Stove, Keith said he got a call from Omar a week earlier to ask if he’d spend some time w/ Murph, though he might’ve misspoke.
Last month, Jerry called Murph a DeRosa type, which makes you believe they see him playing many positions, yet they don’t seem to be preparing him for any position other than 1B.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
There was a story about Keith and Murphy’s schedules not matching over Christmas so they would get together during ST.
njstuckintx
2/16/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
When’s Beltran’s last year? 2011? If Murph ever ripped it up and played decent 1B, who’s to say you can’t slot Ike into Francouer’s spot, as he does have OF experience. Just saying, we could have options there. Is it likely, no. But, doing my part to think outside the proverbial box.
Barring Free agents would be Bay, F-mart, Davis as OF, Wright, Reyes, Havens(?), Murphy, Thole… Then all that extra money you get 3-4 starting pitchers!
I kid, but in a small small way, I’m not…
fongy2
2/16/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Maybe b/c this FO doesn’t know what they’re doin’???
The trouble w/Murphy ever being “DeRosa like”…Or lite
Is he’s terrible w/ the glove everywhere but 1B.
I stil think everyone is underrating this kids ability
to become a pretty good hitter though.
The more I look at the upcoming season and schedule,
the more it looks to me like Jerry’s, and maybe Omar’s
Waterloo will be the late May six game homestand against
the Phils and Yanks.
If we’re around .500 going into that stand and lose 5 of 6
OR get swept, I think someone’s getting canned.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Fongy, you think if AAA gets off to a good start with the Baby Mets leading the way. Will that cause ownership to hesitate in firing Minaya if the big club struggles?
fongy2
2/16/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Not sure about that one.
I do have a bad feeling that the Wilpon’s will allow Omar one more mgr.
I also think alot more of the future Mets
will be starting at AA and not AAA this
season, so….???
Again, looking at the sched, there are 42
games before May 21,when the Phils and Yanks come in to play 3 each.
Assuming Beltran isn’t back until May and
we go slow w/Johan, .500 sounds about right. Mind you though, that at 20-22, Davey was fired and the job was given to Buddy, So…. If this team were to start
20-22 and lose 5 of 6 OR get swept by
the Phils and Yanks, how could Jerry and
maybe even Omar survive?
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
I’m thinking FMart, Mejiia, Tejada Thole and Davis start at AAA.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
I think Fmart and Thole from that list are the only ones that start at AAA. The others will be there soon but not from the beginning.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. Maybe Davis, depending upon how good he
looks in spring BUT I’d be very surprised if Tejada
and Meijia don’t
play atleast half the season in Bingo.
Especially given their ages.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Tejada already play a season in AA. I think Havens is slotted to start in AA.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
I don’t see why Tejada goes back to AA after having a good season where he played in 134 games last season.
I can see maybe Davis going to AA but after having played 55 games at AA winning player of the year honors and then also helping Team USA win the Gold and then making the 2009 Arizona Fall League All Prospect Team. The Mets might think his kid is ready for AAA.
Mejiia I agree may go down to AA.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Both Meijia and Tejada
will play the entire season @20y/o
BOTH are very
young and having seen
Tejada,he hasn’t mastered hitting off-speed pitches
and while very slick, can be a little wild in the field.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Tejada will likely start in AAA.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
i wouldnt bet on that!
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Given the way the Mets consistently rush minor leaguers, I would.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
That was kinda my point!
Kinda thought maybe some lessons have
been learned.
BUT maybe not!
trs86
2/16/2010-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Yeah after looking at their depth chart he has a good chance to.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
I think Tejada goes back to SS.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I was thinking the same but there are almost no AAA SS besides the Sandavol kid we signed.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
I’m just hoping they’re not against canning Manuel for lack of success rather than failure, i.e. if they’re around .500 and just not playing well instead of them having to be digging themselves a big under .500 hole. I think they’re too good for that anyway.
I don’t listen to Manuel anyway, cause he’s a liar. the DeRosa comment is probably his way of saying he wanted DeRosa. I think a lot of things are going to be decided by having to force his hand. Even Manuel can’t think to platoon Murphy if he’s smashing lefties, hitting .320 or blasting home runs right?
stickguy
2/16/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
It’s Jerry. Don’t put it past him.
But, if he does start doing really dumb things, entirely possible the FO tells him to stop with certain moves, and if he doesn’t, boom goes the dynamite!
trs86
2/16/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
Man that would be quite the turn around huh? Murphy improving his batting average by 60 points and actually being able to hit LHP?
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
I wasn’t predicting that, I just meant that the evidence is going to have to be overwhelming for Manuel to make the proper decision.
But I don’t think it’s a stretch to think Murphy can hit lefties and hit .290-.300 with more walks.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
The kid hit: .223 with a .267 OBP against LHP last year. Why do we think he is suddenly going to be able to hit them?
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
sample size, experience, actually facing them?
I think he’s a real baseball player taht will be able to hit lefties. In the sample size prior to being demoted to platoon last year he’d actually hit them. Sure, it was a small sample size, but so was his total AB against lefties last year.
Manuel set him up to fail by platooning him and only giving him the occasional AB(usually off the bench oddly enough) against lefties, so he wasn’t seeing them or being exposed to them. I think he was too young or inexperienced to overcome that.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
Take a look at his minor league splits too. He had a .725 OPS vs. LH in the minors.
Asking a LH to hit LHP at a .290 clip is very difficult to do. Not to many players are able to do that.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
.290 overall. if that’s .260 against Lefties and .300 against Righties I’ll live with it.
It’s hard to analyze because he’s a growing player. He’s learned so much about hitting in the last two years since putting up those minor league numbers. There’s a lot involved, from his jumping around the lineup, to him sitting against lefties after having had hit them, (his numbers from ’08-Platoon were good, small sample size, but still good) to the defensive moves to pretty much telling him he wasn’t going to play against lefties.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
I think this platoon stuff gets blown out of proportion. He was really the starter from June through the rest of the season. From July 10th through the rest of the season there was basically no platoon. Just some rest days.
During the 2nd half where Murphy was mostly the starter he hit .194 with a .254 OBP against LHP.
I know it’s a small sample and I too hope that he improves. We just have nothing saying he will.
ceetar
2/16/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
I dsagree about the platoon, but it depends how you define it and I don’t like how Manuel used him at all. But anyway,
he had 10 AB against lefties in May, 12 in June, 18 in July and finally 31 in August. (wish I could break it down by weeks) After that exposure in August, he actually hit lefties well in his limited 13 AB sept/oct. 4/13 with 2 HR.
Now, it’s all limited sample size, but then again, Murphy wasn’t hitting well at all in the middle part of the season, and September was his best month. There is a small suggestion there that maybe when he’s on, he can actually hit anything.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Take a look at his game log. He started almost every game from July 10th through the rest of the season. All of August and September. Fact is a player is not going to get that many LH AB’s because there are not that many LH.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Luis Castillo had 66 AB’s vs LHP after the ASB last year. Murphy had 62. Murphy was the starter in the 2nd half.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
I guess my point is we have nothing to say other than hunches and hopes that he can hit LHP.
ceetar
2/16/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Actually, it’s 77PA for Castillo versus 67 for Murphy, which isn’t much, but it’s a decent percentage. Murphy did get most of the starts, but still not enough, and was still lifted for Tatis way too much, Tatis never should’ve started every game against lefties. And at the end of that 67 PA stretch Murphy did pick it up against lefties, and hit 2 homers. Which jives with my thoughts that maybe the limited exposure prior to that threw him off his game, among other things.
Given the limited sample size, it’s not easy to say anything. a handful more hits and he has a good career average against lefties. Which is one of the MAJOR reasons that young players shouldn’t platoon.
You can draw too many conclusions like “He can’t hit lefties” based on a slump or a period of readjustment that takes longer for a rookie. Exposure and repetition are important for all development, and that’ percisely how Manuel and the Mets failed Murphy last yaer, whether it was against lefties, in the field, or position in the lineup.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Tatis started 9 games at 1B after the ASB. Also you have to remember that Murphy would have been given normal rest for a rookie playing his first full MLB season. He hit lower in the order than Castillo which could also account for the difference in PA.
My point is that Murphy was not platooned in the 2nd half and over a career of minor and major league AB’s has proven he currently has not hit LHP well. That could change but right now we have no proof that it will.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Good back and forth here Ceetar. Agree to disagree on this one and I am sure both of us are hoping that he smashes the hell out of LH and RH.
stickguy
2/16/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
or at least heavily boo’d!
trs86
2/16/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s not good at other positions but yet is good at a position that he has little experience at. We do know this, badly or not he has played 1B, 2B, 3B and LF. A utility guy usually gets exposed at most of his positions if he is there frequently, however for 1 game at a time he is usually passable. He’s still young so the same reason he can improve his OBP is the same reason he can become a better fielder. He just needs to get out of the cage and on to the field.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
I think I remember a story about how Jacobs and Reyes are good friends. MC has them playing catch, that has to mean something right? LOL.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
its interesting how Jacobs was shipped for Delgado and now he might be his replacement.
Adam Rubin reminds us that it was Pedro and guys on the team who campaigned for Jacobs not to be sent down to AAA after he had such a hot start.
Who knows, maybe Reyes and Wright are campaigning for Jacobs. They did come up together in the minors.
wannybackstra
2/16/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I don’t see why the catching position wouldn’t be open for competition. A career minor leaguer who can’t really hit and is not highly regarded by the organization as a defender should not be handed a starting position.
Casestreet’s point about the set up role is a good one, assuming that Jerry prefers to have such a structure (and it was important enough last season to have traded for Putz). Other than the fifth starting pitcher, that competition could be the most intriguing. And if Nieve does not win the fifth starting pitcher role, I’d like to see him get a shot in the bullpen.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
I think Nieve obviously would have a role. He would not clear waivers and is out of options. Figgy is as well but who cares? No one ever claims him anyway.
I think right now
Krod, Escobar, Iragashi, Feliciano, Parnell, Green, Misch and 5th starter loser make up the pen. Uh oh… that’s one too many. That should actually be fun. Maybe Parnell goes down to AAA? I am not sure they want to lose Misch when they have no other LH. Green would be a candidate but then again they re-signed him.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
hey, watch your mouth. I care
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
HDarvick cares too. I read lots of blogs and comments and every post that disparages Figgy even gently has a comment from HDarvick pointing out his good qualities.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
yeah, after some investigation, I found out he’s a member of the Figgy Appreciation Club on Facebook and a family friend.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
So what’s your excuse?
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/16/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Hey Grave, any update on Fantasy Baseball discussion with the authors?
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
No. I “just work here” and the people actually responsible for the blog have a lot on their plates with some upcoming changes so I am guessing that they are busy with that stuff.
They know my interest (and yours) and the guys in charge all responded to my email about it that day so I trust that it’s on their stove, but probably not on their front burner so to speak.
DNDJohan aka kistics
2/16/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Ok that’s cool. I’ll just wait and see for now.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
I want a 20 game winner on the Mets.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
however, so is Howard Megdal from NY Baseball Digest, SNY and MLBTradeRumors.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Megdal is also the biggest supporter of Ramon Castro I’ve ever read, whatever that might mean.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Have you seen Castro? That guy needs a lot of support.
stickguy
2/16/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
maybe a manseire (or a Bro)?
metsfan4decades
2/16/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Green is the odd man out, IMO. I just don’t see the worth.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
If both Escobar and Igarishi make the team then your right odds are Parnell will be sent down to AAA.
Also don’t forget the lefty reliever Jay Marshall which the Mets picked up on waivers. I don’t know the rules but if he is not on the MLB roster does he have to clear waivers to be sent to AAA?
trs86
2/16/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Good question on Marshall. I don’t think he was mentioned on MLBTR’s out of options list.
Mets
Pat Misch, Anderson Hernandez, Nelson Figueroa, Fernando Nieve
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
i think Parnellwill end up the 8th inning
guy. More likely Escobar ends up on the DL
than being a big contributor here.
Parnell is another guy who many Met fans seem to be very down on which I don’t
understand at all.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
I like Parnell I just don’t see the Mets carrying Escobar, Igarishi and Parnell out of the pen.
If they did it would be like the Nasty Boys of setup men. Which sounds cool but our pen may not be well balanced.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Those WHIP and #’s against LH are brutal for Parnell.
I don’t know why you are so against Escobar? He appears to be healthy and if so he will be a great pickup.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Thats a big IF!
Hasn’t really pitched since 2007…Thats 2007.
And hasn’t been a RP since
What?? 2001??
I know what I saw w/Parnell.
For the first half of the season, he was pretty much lights out when used for an inning in relief.
Jerry overused him and then
instead of backing off a little, returned the kid to starting. It was as a starter where he was light-up.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
Nope not true based on stats fongy. I know you are not a big fan of them.
Season as a reliever: WHIP of 1.50 not good.
PreASB as a reliver (obviously) 1.77 WHIP.
PreASB vs. LH 1.88 WHIP.
PreASB vs LH 14 innings, 17 hits, 9 walks. That’s just plain awful.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Fongy I can’t compete with your having seen him in the minors.
All I can say is millions of baseball fans who have never seen a player play pass judgment on that player based on his statistical performance, and based on Parnell’s statistical performance at the minor and major league levels he’s nothing special and has not shown anything to suggest that he will be.
His WHIPs and his K/BBs are not impressive and if he ever becomes more than a marginal middle reliever it will be a very pleasant surprise to me. I genuinely hope he proves me wrong, and I hope he starts proving me wrong by going to AAA and being the closer in 2010.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I think he could still have a role with this team this year. I just don’t see it as the setup man. Obviously to me he is better than Green.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
C’mon guys!
until the weekend I got married in Mid-June,
the kid had like 30 apps,
an ERA under
2.00, less than a hit an inn AND more than a
K per inning.
I remember him having
backtoback
bad outting against the Phils and against the Rays and another bad loss to the O’s and someone else
the last two weeks of june
BUT again until about
the middle of
June this kid was real good.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy, you must have just been madly in love.
His WHIP for April in May was still around 1.65. In April he pitched 1.2 innings vs. LH and gave up 6 hits and 2 BB. LOL.
He did do better in May.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Isn’t it at least possible that he was as good as he appeared to be initially because the league hadn’t seen him yet, and then once they did they destroyed him?
As far as the Green/Parnell thing, eh, neither guy in their minor league careers were anything special. Green has better MiL numbers recently but he was also older so he should’ve been better IMO.
I’m hoping neither one has a primary role in the 2010 Mets bullpen. 6th inning guy? Sure, I can’t ask for a lot out of that role.
fongy2
2/16/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Look, bottom line…For a
kid who was to be the 10th or 11th
Pitcher,on June 10th he
got into 29gms&gave up
a run in four
of them.
a line of 29gms/23inns/27hits/10bb/20k/2-0& a 1.96era ain’t
too bad. The problem is,like in
’07&’08,guys
who were and should be pitching in the 6th had to start pitching the 8th b/c of injury.In last yrs case
The Putz.
This kid throws 95mph and has a hard sinker.
You just don’t blow that off after what became a rocky rookie
season on what became a God-awful team by the Allstar break.
You don’t believe in him BUT do in
Escobar??
Seems very strange to
me.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not saying he cannot become a good pitcher, I’m just saying there is nothing solid to look back on that makes me expect it to happen.
At least with Escobar, you know he’s done it before. Other than the small sample you note with Parnell that could be a result of the league simply not being familiar with him just as much as it could be he is truly good and just got misused or tired, there’s nothing to go on with him.
I’m not advocating forcing him out of the organization, I’m just saying he’s got options and he’s young, he can go back to AAA and prove it.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy, look deeper into those stats. ERA is not a good judge for how Parnell was used early. All that means is the guys behind him kept the runs from scoring or maybe even he buckled down or get lucky with guys on base. Even with those stats he had 37 baserunners in 23 innings. That is terrible.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Right now the only thing he has proven is he can be a middle innings ROOGY. Hopefully he proves differently.
tkfj
2/16/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
Absolutely agree here Prismo.
Thole needs time in AAA
Jacobs nor Tatis should take any of Murph’s time, unless Murph has a poor spring (which I highly doubt). Murph is going to be solid this year.
LOL Gary Matthew’s JR.
5th starter is the only obvious opening for competition. While there is some concern for Santos and Murph to get complacent, I don’t see that happenening with Murph’s work ethic and Santos knowing he is a slump away from AAA.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Why does Santos get given the job? Because he was here last year? Where was he at the beginning of last year? A career minor leaguer that was in danger of being out of baseball.
Same with Murphy, Murphy was not even a true prospect before being forced to be up in 2008. He did well for a rookie in 2009 but in my opinion with those numbers has just earned a head start in a competition. Seriously, as bad as Jacobs is, his career averages are better than Murphy produced. Yes hopefully Murphy will get better but why is that just taken for granted?
tkfj
2/16/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
I’ll concede Santos, but seriously give me an alternative starting catcher. Blanco? Coste?, this is assuming you think Thole should be in AAA. Santos, Blanco, Coste, honestly they’ll all probably put up similar numbers.
This is why Jacobs should’nt start….http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/2/11/1305497/the-firstbase-situation. Jacobs is not this team’s future firstbaseman, Murph might not be either. But Murph will give us a better chance to win this year.
fongy2
2/16/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, there still is alot of upside w/Murph. Jacobs has pretty much shown
what he is.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
I trust the Amazinavenue guys have a very good opinion on why he should not start. I don’t think Jacobs right now should start. However, I am open to the competition.
tkfj
2/16/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Point taken.
ceetar
2/16/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
well, it’s not going to be taken for granted, it’s going to be based on Spring. I don’t think Jacobs can/should be able to win the job, only that Murphy can lose it by playing really badly. But like you said, Spring is a small sample size, and Jacobs really isn’t very good.
trs86
2/16/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
You are right as a hitter Jacobs is not great, however as I have pointed out his 2008 was much better than Murphy’s 2009 and his career averages are much better than Murphy’s 2009. It is possible that we are dealing with 2 bad baseball players. I don’t think Murphy is bad and hope he does well but we have nothing to prove that so far. Right now we are going on the assumption he will improve. However, the same reason he may improve is the same reason Jacobs could at least return to 2008 or career averages.
wannybackstra
2/16/2010-6:10pm at 6:10 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think it is true that Murphy was “not even a true prospect before being forced up last year.” I don’t even know what that means but I am certain it is not true.
He was drafted in 2006 and by 2008 he was raking in AA (.308 .374 .496)
A guy hitting like that in his second pro season and at that high of a level is going to be considered a prospect.
fongy2
2/16/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
totally agree!
Murph has been hammered way too much for a kid coming
off his first season on a team which was a disaster and
he rec’d no help! He also showed himself to atleast be o.k. @ 1B unlike @ 3B,2B&LF where he was just horrible.
As for Santos, he too gets too little credit considering what he was working w/ both in the line-up and staff.
Ruiz is one of the better catchers in the game and didnt
really grab the position until he was 27/28 y/o.
CaseStreet
2/16/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
thing with Santos is that no one expects him to be able to sustain his hitting.
I wonder if the Giants will trade us Molina. lol
fongy2
2/16/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
We only need him to hold things together
until Thole arrives,be it mid-season or in 2011.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
Did you see CBS Sportsline was reporting the NY Post to say the Mets are still in discussion for Rod Barajas?
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/22234
trs86
2/16/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, another Mets sight (I think Mets Fever) reported it but they could not find even ONE other site reporting a link or rumor.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
lol thats rite mets fever reported that cbssportsline reported that the ny post reported that the mets were still discussing barajas. lol
hey its the ny post you got to believe those guys.
trs86
2/16/2010-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
I never found it in the NY post either. Did you?
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-7:18pm at 7:18 pm (UTC -4)
No I think that is what MetsFever was saying that they couldn’t find it either. I even looked on twitter but no luck.
You think CBS made it up?
trs86
2/16/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
I still think if Murphy works at it he can play these other positions and in the long run most likely will have to.
I think some of this Murphy “bashing” that so many are referring to is very similar to what some of you call realistic when bashing other parts of the Mets game. Sure Murphy has potential and may improve. However, rookie or not last year he had a .741 OPS and an OPS+ of 95. That’s just not good.
ceetar
2/16/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
boils down to needing a better manager that doesn’t get the least out of his players in my opinion. I saw enough from Murphy in certain stretches that make me feel he’s less of a gamble to be good in 2010 than Jacobs who did smack the ball hard in ’08, but still posted a sub-.300 OBP. I think some of the Jacobs promoters are stuck on the “OMG Must have BIG power numbers from 1b!”
trs86
2/16/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Not at all stuck on the big power numbers. Just looking at OPS+ Jacobs had a down year last year and if he returns to 2008 his OPS+ was 108. Murphy’s was 95. Again, if Murphy improves he could do better than that. If he improves.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Again, really a rookie on a team where
he should have been hitting 7thor8th….
NOT 3rd or 4th…WHILE having to learn
not just one but two new positions.
Like most other things, the FO screwed
this one up. Abreu should have been brought in on the cheap while Murph was
allowed to learn 1B or LF in the line-up everyday @ Buffalo.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree and have hope for Murphy. Considering he was not a highly regarded prospect and was rushed to the bigs he did well. That still does not change his stats.
fongy2
2/16/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Didn’t say it did BUT stats
need to be looked at in context.
trs86
2/16/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Sure when judging the player they do. However, when judging the needs of a team they also have to be looked at.
.741 was good for Murphy but bad for the Mets.
fongy2
2/16/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
Again, a lineup of
guys like
Tatis,Valdez,Cora,Pagan,
Sullivan,etc,
etc make it a little tough to figure out exactly what
we have in this kid AND
how much better he could have been with Reyes,Beltran,Delgado etc
in the line-up around him.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
Possible. Of course he started hot but had a terrible May with those guys.
I guess this goes back to my original point. He did well for who he is but not well enough to be handed the position without any competition.
fongy2
2/16/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry guys BUT for this fan of 37 seasons…This team has the
look and feel of 1991 all over it!
Remember, Memorial Day Weekend on the road in Mil or SD
could well be the end of the line for Jerry and/or Omar.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly I see no comparisons with the 91 team. That team had hardly any offensive superstars.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
They had a very good SP staff but a terrible offense with only 1 hitter in the entire lineup with an OPS over .800.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t argue against that ’91 might be a very good analogy. I can only hope that the subsequent 5 years aren’t coming too. I can say for sure Jeff Torborg and Dallas Green won’t be managing the team.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
Help me out here. I was 15 and maybe that year was a blur. However, how is this team anything like that team?
trs86
2/16/2010-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
The offense had a line of: .244 .317 .365 .682 for the season. LOL>
stickguy
2/16/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
but they lead the league in CHUG.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Not in any roster specific way that I see, just that it is coming after a period of sustained success and with certain expectations.
The 2010 Mets can throw off any comparison with 1991 by finishing noticeably over .500, or they can invite them by finishing noticeably under .500 and having a managerial change and subsequent roster turnover.
This team right now isn’t anything like that team yet, but if as Fongy seems to be predicting more things go wrong than right it could become very much like that team.
trs86
2/16/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
But again that team had to have roster turn over because it had almost no superstars right?
trs86
2/16/2010-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
They did take a nosedive from 1990 but that 90 team was also deeper in the star department.
GravediggerHebner
2/16/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
If you want to really examine it thoroughly you can easily pick it apart piece by piece.
All Fongy said was “look and feel” which are pretty subjective and pretty general and why I felt the analogy worked at all.
They were a team coming off sustained success (subjective) and had expectations of continued success (subjective) and failed to deliver (not subjective) resulting in turnover at many levels (not subjective). I think generally that’s how it might work as an analogy that’s all I am getting at.
I can’t say whether Fongy is then predicting a subsequent 5 year dark period he’ll have to respond to that.
trs86
2/16/2010-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
I guess I see it. But to me that team had no logic behind that continued success because the offense was terrible.
trs86
2/16/2010-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
I guess it just does not work for me.
fongy2
2/16/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Yes THAT was the result but NOT what
all us Met fans thought was gonna be going INTO
that ’91
season.
Take a look at the stats
of Coleman/Jeffries/Magadan/McReynolds/Hojo/Hubie&Elster in 1990
and tell me how anyone would think that in combo w/that ’91 staff we wouldnt compete w/The Pirates.
fongy2
2/16/2010-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not predicting anything beyond this
season. I do think though like in ’91
we’re at a turning point in the direction of this org.
That late 80s run was over,mistakes in
moving the wrong guys and picking up bad fits were made
AND the farm system
didn’t live up to the hype.Mix that w/weak leadership in the clubhouse and on the field and
you end up with a
77-84 team.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
i hope your wrong and this isn’t 91 all over again.
cause that mean Bonilla is just round da corner again. I don’t think I can handle that again.
fongy2
2/16/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
I hope not too! BUT thank you for understanding
my point and agreeing(somewhat)….
Hey, I hope I’m wrong BUT like I said, to me, with
all these question marks AND having to deal w/ The Phils, I won’t be sold again.
I renewed my partial plan back in ’91 despite my anger over the Strawberry fiasco BECAUSE I believed! I believed in our young talent and
b/c of what I’d seen Viola do for the Twins,Franco
for The Reds AND Coleman for The Cards.
I believed Hubie still had something left in the tank and would be real good with the young players
and I believed that off of 1990 Jeffries,Mags& Elster were on their way to becoming REAL good
players and future Stars of The Mets.
I was 26 then and ALOT has happened with both
The Mets and Me in the almost 20yrs since.
Sorry, don’t want to be a downer BUT this
team feels alot more like ’91 than ’86,’06
or even ’00 to me b/c of not just the players
but the guys in charge…Both on the field and in the FO.
fongy2
2/16/2010-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Going into ’91 Mgmt looked to have re-tooled,saying goodbye to Straw while bringing in Coleman who at that time was the most
disruptive offensive force (not a HR hitter) in the NL,
Jefferies and Magadan were finally going to grow into Stars,
Elster was gonna win a Gold Glove, Hojo and McReynolds were
AllStar type players AND the Staff was full of Aces or quasi-
Aces in Doc,Viola,Cone,Darling&El Sid. On papaer that should
have/could have been our best staff ever. Franco was right in the middle of his prime as a closer And all looked real good
going into ’91……..If…if this…if that…and if the other
thing went well.
Well, nothing did and instead the team looked like a bunch of
misplaced pieces, injured stars who’d never be the same again
mixed in with a bunch of journeyman AND a 77-84 record.
trs86
2/16/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
You have a right to that opinion but I just don’t see it at all. Especially consider that the 90 team had been successful and the 91 team had very little talent on offense besides Hojo.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy is right the 91 team was as he described Jefferies was supposed to this great hitter and so was Magadan Magadan was more of a high average singles hitter with no speed but good around the bag at 1st. Vince Coleman was supposed create havok on the basepaths similar to what Reyes does but all he did was create havok.
McReynolds was a quiet guy went about his business but was a great glove in LF and put up consistant numbers. Elster was the Gold Glove SS and HOJO our 30/30 man. Brooks our version of Cliff Floyd.
So sad it was a year where all the if’s went against us.
I hope Fongy is wrong and this is not 91 all over again.
fongy2
2/16/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
I hope I’m wrong too pal!
fongy2
2/16/2010-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
Not often I say this but on you’re last point,
you’re just flat out wrong. Agin, Hojo,McReynolds,
Hubie,Coleman and what we all thought Jeffries
and Mags were becoming. That in combo with Doc,Cone,Sid,Darling,Viola&Franco,All in their prime looked like a diff team and even type team
from 84-90 BUT w/o question going in, the type
of team which EVERYONE felt,if things go well,
will compete for the NL.
This team has Bay and the questions that are Reyes returning from injury, Wright,who knows what
happened and Beltran,when he does come back….
And who knows as what type of player….And for
how long. Outside of a returning from injury Johan
, this staff can’t hold a candle to what It looked like the ’91 staff was supposed to be.
Plus as good as the Pirates were back then..They
weren’t nearly as good as this current Philly team.
trs86
2/16/2010-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
Right, the 91 team was coming off a successful season with a stacked pitching lineup and very little offense while losing Strawberry.
Again I just don’t see it. Go ahead and feel away though.
fongy2
2/16/2010-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t see it simply because
you dont want to.
The ’90 team scored almost 800 runs
and we were sold on replcing Straw’s game changing power with
Coleman’s game changing speed….
While expecting the continued development of Jeffries @23 and
Magadan @27 who were to be potential batting champs and allstars. Add that to Doc and Viola coming off a combined 39 wins,Doc,Coney&Sid all con’t to
get better @ 26/27 y/o and Darling
also still in his 20s having a healthy(sound familiar?)bounce back season.
And oh, thanks for allowing me to feel this way.
trs86
2/16/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, keep feeling it. I don’t see it because to me the 2009 team was terrible. The 1990 team was very good. The 91 pitching staff was very good. The 2009 (2010) pitching staff not so much. The 91 team relying on new guys in Coleman and Hubie and Hojo with possible rookies stepping up. The 2010 team Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Bay all offensive stars.
Again, it’s ok if we don’t see the same thing.
fongy2
2/16/2010-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
Wait a sec!!!…
I thought we were
just terrible last
year b/c of all the
injuries???
And no offense…Really,BUT
like with alot of your stat tossin’,
You don’t see it b/c
of lack of context.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
I think TRS said it best, he just doesn’t see the comparison and hopefully neither will history. I’d rather not that is for sure.
Having lived through it I remember the bill of goods that we were going to be an agressive running team that with Coleman Hojo McReynolds and Jefferies we were going to lead the league in stolen bases. Brooks was going to be our clutch veteran hitter. Oh man and Greg Jefferies was going to be our silver slugger. Wow how delusional were we.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
Didn’t we win the opener with a late hr from Brooks?
fongy2
2/16/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
I think that was gm 2,also
a day gm against the phils.Hubie hit the gm winner in 10
after Cerrone hit one in the 9th to tie it. Opening day,Hubie stole home with
the winning run.
We won both gms 2-1,beautiful weather both days. I was
sitting above the plate in the mezz both days. At 2-0,with our new squad, I drove home to
Forest Hills that day KNOWING we’d
be playing ball late into October.
Jeez, to be
young and naive!
fongy2
2/16/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Me and most Met fans I knew really,really
thought Jeffries was the second coming of Pete Rose.
Sad.
Mr North Jersey
2/16/2010-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
The thing is what you call very little offense is only that in retrospect. At the start of the 91 season people were not expecting very little offense.
In retrospect yes very bad and the thing that I hope is that in retrospect we won’t be talking of how bad we were with this 2010 club.
fongy2
2/16/2010-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you!