Mar 12
Great article from Seven Train to Shea:
I know it’s hard right now to get over this crushing blow but we are Mets fans and that’s what we do.
Thanks to Metsblog for the link.
Another link that I posted last night:
by Rational (sometimes) Mets Musings
MLBTradeRumors
How Much Longer Should The Mets Go... { We'll see. Not sure how... } – May 20, 5:44 PM
How Much Longer Should The Mets Go... { In one of my rare... } – May 20, 4:45 PMHow Much Longer Should The Mets Go... { When these guys cool off... } – May 20, 4:27 PMHow Much Longer Should The Mets Go... { The other teams tried that... } – May 20, 4:20 PMHow Much Longer Should The Mets Go... { You still have to make... } – May 20, 4:16 PM
212 comments
prismo
3/12/2010-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
It’s one thing being positive and optimistic, but it’s another being blind about it.
This team is not a contender with Reyes and Beltran on the DL. Those are two of our best players. You’re kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Can the team survive a couple weeks without the two of them? I do believe they can – that they can rebound from a mediocre start to the season. But a month or more? I just see the odds dwindling and dwindling.
That being said, I really don’t think Reyes will be out for very long, and I’m not even convinced he’ll miss opening day. I do think the team can contend with Beltran out for a month, if Reyes is healthy.
Otherwise, you’re blind if you think you can replace Beltran/Reyes with Pagan/Cora and still contend.
njstuckintx
3/12/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
I don’t want to, but I have to agree with you.
ceetar
3/12/2010-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Did you read the article though? That’s basically what he’s saying. He says the other guys have to step up, but basically that they can survive a couple of weeks with Cora. Obviously the longer they play without them, the harder it is to win a division, but it still hinges on the pitching.
This actually puts more pressure on MOP, but if they come out and pitch to potential in April (don’t panic over spring starts), the Mets can win games with merely Bay, Wright, Castillo, Francoeur and cast. They won’t score 6 runs a game, but if they can make 4 be enough to win?
It’s too early to put numbers on it, but you’d like to obviously play at least .500 (certainly possible) and keep ahead or near the Phillies.
prismo
3/12/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
Absolutely I read it. It’s not exactly what he’s saying though.
“Alex Cora was brought in for this exact situation as Reyes’s back-up.”
Alex Cora does not inspire confidence. I’m fine with him as a back-up, but he has a lifetime OPS of .658, which is TERRIBLE. On top of that, his defense is average at best. The Mets will NOT be fine with Cora replacing Reyes for longer than a couple weeks.
ceetar
3/12/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
Right, but all we’re talking about is a couple of weeks.
trs86
3/12/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
“However, I think the Mets will be fine without Reyes if he does indeed start the season on the DL. Alex Cora was brought in for this exact situation as Reyes’s back-up.”
He implied throughout the entire article that if it’s just the start of the season.
prismo
3/12/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
How many games is “start of the season”?
5? 10? 15? 20?
There’s a big difference between starting the season 2-3 and starting it 7-13. (sorry, this is a below .500 team without Beltran and Reyes with the current questions in the rotation)
ceetar
3/12/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
depends on what those questions become. If they pitch well, maybe they’re 13-7 and Wright comes out on fire in April or Murphy hits everything all over the place. Pagan has been prone to hot starts.
Maybe they hold down the fort, we’re in first place, and Reyes and Beltran show up and the Phillies fans start crying.
prismo
3/12/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Absolutely it could happen! I hope that is what happens if he’s out for 20 games.
But the odds would have to lean in the other direction. Betting that everything will go your way is never a sound strategy.
stickguy
3/12/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
I think it is the FO motto though.
trs86
3/12/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Mets started slow last year and then had a tremendous May. Beltran and Reyes very well could be back by May. If not then we have larger issues. 20 games we can survive, 40 games maybe not.
joed1
3/12/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I’d also add that unlike last year when it was perfectly fine to sympathize with the Mets plight due to the staggering amount of injuries, they will get none from me this season.
They had plenty of opportunites to add depth to this team and should have learned a lesson from last season. Instead a worse version of Alex Cora is once again the backup plan.
Their plan was to assume that all 12 players who ended the season on the DL or had offseason surgery would all come back in pristine condition.
Unbelievable…
prismo
3/12/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Thanks Joe!
stickguy
3/12/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Covering for Beltran is easier if Pagan can replicate last years production.
Reyes they just don’t have anyone that isn’t a serious, serious downgrade.
And the 2 being out for a long period together (say, a month) is going to be very hard to overcome.
Cora fills the spot, but will not add any value. At least someone like Lopez could have stepped in and maybe had a hot streak.
COra and Castillo have to be the worst MI combo in either league. I find it hard to believe you could make a case for any other team, factoring in O and D. Hell, even D alone they probably lose!
I also feel bad for the GB pitchers. Pinero must be glad he went elsewhere!
Unless Reyes really does come back close to opening day, they are going to need some hot starts by guys like DW and bay to keep them going.
prismo
3/12/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
Yep, would’ve been nice to have Lopez right now. Didn’t he sign for less than $2 million?
trs86
3/12/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
But also went somewhere where he was most likely promised a lot of playing time and went very late most likely holding out for a lot more than he got.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
Lopez is a brutal short stop. Might as well play Tatis there if you’re looking for offense.
trs86
3/12/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Ah there’s Wanny. I mentioned your disdain for Lopez’s SS services earlier.
joed1
3/12/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
He signed for $1MM and I also picked up on that same note in a post I made this morning. We paid twice as more for Cora and will get 75% less production.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
With Beltran and probably Reyes missing the start of the season, that leaves some holes in our offense and probably defense as well.
So it’s absolutely imperative that the pitching staff gets off to a very sharp start. To me, it’s going to be up to them in April to keep us in contention until Reyes and Beltran return. Their replacements are just that – so we can’t expect the same caliber as Reyes and Beltran.
All up to this pitching staff.
Man, how good would a strong #2 look about now? Not blaming anyone b/c I don’t think Lackey had any interest in the Mets, everyone after him we would have had to overpay, and a trade would like result in losing some of these top prospects we’ve been enjoying all spring.
Just saying though…
trs86
3/12/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
The Lackey situation seems more info coming out. Mets just did not want to go 5 years with Lackey and it appears no one else did. Give Sox credit for being creative enough to put 1,000 health clauses in the contract.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Where are you getting this?
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
Nevermind
trs86
3/12/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Bunch of sites coming out with it today.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
This is kinda unrelated, but I think I understand why the Mets Organization is getting a lot of grief more than they should. No it’s not the over-reacting media or the fans (though we can blame them for some).
The Mets organization usually downplay injuries and create higher expectations than the reality. Because the Mets were hit with the injury bug last season, the Mets FO wants to downplay the severity of injuries, so that the fans, media, players ,etc are not like “Not Again!”.
There’s been several instances. Look at Reyes for example. Mets first said he’s day-to-day, then couple weeks, then a month, and on and on. Same thing with Beltran. At first the Mets said, he will be in the lineup if he can play through the pain and the bone bruise will not get bigger. Then it’s like he needs to rest up. And then it’s bone bruise got bigger and on and on.
Do you see the trend here? I think it can be said for most of the injuries that occurred last year.
So, why give time table to begin with? why not wait until all the evaluation has been conducted AND also be very very conservative. For instance, say Reyes will be out 8-12 weeks. That way, you lower everyone’s expectations. If Reyes comes back early, Great!. If it really does take 8-12 weeks (I really really hope not), then it is what it is. But by lowering everyone’s expectations, you just bought yourself at least couple weeks if not more.
Just my 2 cents….
ceetar
3/12/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
it’s lose-lose.
if they said 8-12 they’d get crucified for not finding a suitable backup, or the ‘depth’ argument, even if it’s virtually impossible to find a suitable backup SS for prolonged play.
Omar pretty much did say there is no exact timetable. Some of the criticism just seems to have wantd the Mets to predict the future.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
I had more or less the same thoughts yesterday. With their track record, the Mets would have been better off saying nothing until all results and prognosis were in. Just touting the middle of the road saying something like: doctors are doing additional tests and when those and prognosis is in, we’ll be updating everyone. Soon as we get the word.
But no, we’ve got Reyes telling ESPN virtually he’s fine. We’ve got Omar telling MF yesterday morning on his cell phone Reyes won’t be out any extended length. Then we’ve got the final prognosis coming out hours later saying he will likely miss opening day and it’s basically anyone’s guess right now how long after that he’ll be bak.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I think one person and only one person should say anything. Let is be Omar or anyone else, but it should only be one person saying stuff. Not 5 different people saying 5 different things.
Perhaps the problems is that there are too many outlets that are coming out of the Mets organization. I think Jerry needs to shut up. I think the players and their agents need to shut up. I just think it should be one source telling us the story.
Jerry really needs to shut up. I heard from Eddie C that Jerry “hopes” to have Reyes back before the ST breaks and that got everyone in the media got confused.
Either way, the Mets need to seriously re-assess how they are addressing the media.
tkfj
3/12/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
Probably not, but you go to battle with what you have. I’m confident that as long as the pitching staff is decent we will be at or above .500 by the time Rey Rey returns, mark my words. This team showed last season that they could remain in a race for even without numerous players and frequent injuries. This lineup is good enough to win games, now they just have to do it.
PS. Please no Cora at SS.
trs86
3/12/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
TK I am sure Cora will play some there. Not the end of the world as he may be healthy now and sounds like he worked all off-season with a chip. His defensive stats were actually good at SS in Boston but tanked here. Who knows why.
ceetar
3/12/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
thumbs hurt? I don’t think Castillo is as a disaster as eeryone makes out either.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
he was about as bad in 2008 for the Sox as he was for the Mets in 2009.
trs86
3/12/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
But still not terrible. 3 years in Boston ended up with good UZR numbers. For his career he is a positive 11.2. So again, perhaps our eyes lied to us with Cora OR the fact that he plays a limited sample there every year causes the stats to be off.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
His three years in boston may have been okay in total. But his last two seasons have been bad. I’d rather compare his most recent seasons than to go back 4 seasons.
trs86
3/12/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Bad? Don’t we say you have to use the last 3 seasons for UZR?
Last 3 years have him at
3.1
-1.7
-2.6
That makes him about a -1.2 even if it was -2.6 that’s not much below average if any. If you want to use UZR/150 that’s fine but lets throw in 2007 where he was +25.9 LOL. His UZR/150 to me is not helpful because of limited sample.
Even you have said in the past numbers that are that close to 0 and with a limited sample it would be just as easy for him to be slightly above or below average.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:38am at 11:38 am (UTC -4)
I’m not going to get into this with you again but limited samples are exactly why you use UZR/150.
What could be more misleading than saying Cora was only 2.6 runs below average when you’re talking about only a handful of games and using a rate stat?
That 2.6 means he cost them 2.6 runs in just 54 games. If he continued to play at the same level for a full season he would cost them 7.8 runs below average in 150 games.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Right but then he saved the Redsox 26 runs in 2007. LOL.
So if you combine those 3 seasons you get close to a full season and during that time he has been close to average.
Yes he was his worst last year at -2.6 but again based on a limited sample and using UZR/150 for one year is dangerous. Can’t tell me he was +26 one year and -6 the next. Like I said before we started this based on UZR for the last 3 years he is about average.
Anyway looks like we may get to see with our own eyes more.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
I see today’s game has been canceled due to rain.
Guys who left on the bus at almost the crack of dawn this morning are probably not happy….
metsgirl31
3/12/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Yup weather down here in FL is terrible today…no good for baseball at all.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Prismo is absolutely right at the beginning of the comments. Pardon the religious analogy but being optimistic enough to think that the Mets can compete without Reyes and Beltran for any significant time is about as wise as expecting Jesus to come save us all this weekend.
Every game without those guys hurts bad. When this team was at its best in 2007 and 2008 it missed out by one game. Without these guys for even a week, the Mets will need to be that much better than the Phillies overall.
Are the Mets 5-6 games better than the Phillies? They’ll have to be to compensate for even a month without these guys.
ceetar
3/12/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
they could be.
And baseball rarely works out to match any particular formula. The Phillies could stumble, Murphy could have a hot April. Pelfrey could start in April with a 18 win season.
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
I agree. No problem with taking an optimistic approach to a new season, but let’s be honest here folks. This is a big shot to the gut. I don’t like nay sayers any more than I like people who turn a blind eye to reality.
Yes, he might be back after only a month, and if they keep their head’s above water (sound familiar?), they can still compete, but that remains to be seen. Any article that leads with the headline “Mets Will Be Fine Without Reyes, Think Positive” is kind of absurd and not worth the time to read IMO.
trs86
3/12/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
No one in here is turning a blind eye to reality. We have all said that more than 20 games will be an almost insurmountable blow. However, right now it’s not. 20 games or less I think they can survive and be fine. If you read the article it implies that if they don’t have him at the beginning of the season as long as he comes back soon and healthy they will be fine.
ceetar
3/12/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
well, 20 games is just a random number anyway. Say Pelfrey pitches lights out in April and Murphy has 8 HR? Maybe we can survive another 20 games, or afford Reyes and Beltran a little more slack in easing back into things.
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
And I’m siply saying that we said the same things last year. Let’s wait and see what happens. The headline to that article was that the Mets would be fine without Reyes.
trs86
3/12/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Possible that they would have to. We have to remember that the Phillies have started slow every year. I don’t think that the Mets going 8-12 the first month will doom the season because based on previous years that would make them about 2 games out. LOL. But yeah obviously we all know that if they miss anything more than 20 games we are in trouble.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Well, I still think it’s going to boil down to pitching. If the starters can limit all their starts to 3 or less runs a game in April, we’ve got a shot to not fall out of this early.
Can they do it? On paper, I’ll say it’s not looking good. But I really have no idea what all past Johan will be capable of this year. I’ll keep an open mind for now.
To me, the goal here is to play better than the rest in the division out of the gate. Going to need some real karma w/o Beltran and Reyes. And since we have no idea how the rest of the teams will start off, we’ve got a shot. I believe the Phillies are notorious for having a poor April, right?
trs86
3/12/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Just to give more info on what I was saying. Last 3 years the Phillies are 1 game over .500 for the months of March and April. Not saying it will continue but it very well could. If it does and the Mets can stay close they should be fine through April. It’s after April that if the guys are not back we are in trouble.
Good news is they have been bad in June (3 games below .500) and we should be perfectly healthy by then. Right?
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
It’s not about how many wins the Mets & Phillies have in April. It’s about how many wins they have at the end of the season. Even if they are close in May doesn’t mean they didn’t need the wins they could have had in April.
trs86
3/12/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Obviously. Just saying that if they struggle a little in April if the guys return healthy then we still have a very good shot to compete. Or we could just give up now?
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
No one said to give up. I think many people here are saying to take off the rose colored glasses because the Mets are not “fine without Reyes.”
Too suggest such a thing is not optimism, it’s foolishness.
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Let’s not forget that simply because they are back, they are automatically going to be in mid-season form. It is going to take some time for them to get their sea legs under them.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Oh man….the debates across the mets blogsphere on Cora being the opening day SS are running about 99-1 for he stinks….
One poster made a good point about some of our pitches needing that stellar defense behind them to get off to a good start and build confidence – especially Pelfry. His comment was comical:
Pelf should be humming that song, “clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you…â€
Sigh……
trs86
3/12/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Yet defensive metrics show him not to be that bad.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
I love that you often state that you don’t trust defensive metrics but then rely on them anyway when you think they suit your needs.
Are you auditioning for this year’s Mr. Met? Because I think the ability to dance on the top of the dugout and to not suffocate in a giant mask in the middle of the summer are more important skills to work on.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, would you vote for me? I will keep your comments in mind again as I know the source.
As for my issues with defensive metrics still apply and I have stated that in the comment section today. I have said that based on my eyes Cora is not good but perhaps my eyes have lied and he is about average.
tkfj
3/12/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
And he does, but the problem is there arent many replacements for Gritty Grimace McCora. Tejada, not Miguel, Russ Adams?
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
We just need to be couple games behind the Phillies until the guys come back healthy….
Just need to be above .500 until the guys come back healthy….
Sounds very very familiar….
trs86
3/12/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Yup and if they don’t it will be disastrous and we will lose. What’s the point?
jaded1983
3/12/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Don’t forget the phillies are notoriously slow starters and they aren’t without questions of their own!
Will their rotation be good after Halladay?
Lidge?
The other guys in their pen coming back from injury?
Bench?
Will rollins be a .250 hitter again?
The mets pitching (as everyone is saying) needs to hold up. The mets need to do as best as they can, not worry about the phillies, and reyes and beltran need to come back swinging.
trs86
3/12/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Yup 1 game over .500 the last 3 years in March and April.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
+1000
metsgirl31
3/12/2010-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Agreed…if there’s one thing we learned last season is that anything can happen and injuries happen to every team. No one knows how the long season will play out.
ceetar
3/12/2010-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
And, we still play them. even if we were 10 games back on May 15th, we could match them exactly and just beat them head to head and win the division.
We’ll see how it goes. Also Reyes should have 3 more tests prior to the season even starting and this SS decision needing to be made. If he’s clear and just needs to ramp up the exercise and get in shape, it’s totally different than just waiting.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
I’m pretty sure the Phillies just won the division with the same 2-5 crew, an injured Brad Lidge, a questionable bullpen and Jimmy Rollins hitting .250.
And while the Phillies may be slow starters, this Mets team has proven at its best to be notoriously slow finishers.
I don’t see any positive spin to the Mets losing 2 of its 3 best players to start a season in which they will need every win they can get with a very talented team ahead of them as the three time reigning division champion.
trs86
3/12/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Not looking for really a positive spin only to say don’t panic YET>
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
The problem is that the headline stating the Mets will be fine without Reyes is ridiculous. The guy received MVP votes in four straight seasons.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t always judge a book by it’s cover. The guy is clearly implying that if he is only gone for a short time the Mets will be fine. Did not say they would not miss him.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
What’s a short time when you’ve already missed the postseason twice by one game margins and are clearly not the best team in the division?
The Mets might be good enough to get to the postseason this year. But they’re not good enough to do that without maximizing they’re ability to win games.
Losing Reyes for even a week will hurt. Losing him for a month could be disastrous. Losing him and Beltran for a month simultaneously… well…
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
I agree…Thank you
again Wanny.
It’s not as if EVERYTHING else is
O.K. with this team
AND there weren’t a
whole bunch of questions anyway!
If you lose Reyes then for several weeks…Alot easier
to survive…BUT with this Staff,BP,
questions about 1B &
No Beltran???
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. The Mets chances this season hinged upon them being able to put a healthy team out there consisting primarily of Wright, Beltran, and Reyes. The hope being that those guys would be able to overcome a suspect pitching staff. Well, we are currently right back where we left off last year. Is no one willing to acknowledge this?
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
Apparently not, Johan. The Mets are “fine without Reyes.”
I guess a full season of Jeff Francoeur’s strike outs will make the difference.
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t forget
Rod Barajas
over Scheider
and Santos..
HUGE upgrade
there!!
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for reminding me. Hell, with that upgrade this team would be fine without Wright too!
trs86
3/12/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
So at this point we should all declare the season over with an panic?
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Did anyone say not to play the season, or throw in the towel?
No. I think we are simply saying that you shouldn’t act like nothing is wrong. Cora will play as long as necessary, but don’t act like there isn’t a problem.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
No. But we should stop acting like rubes with blind faith. A little bit of a reality check is all most of us are asking for.
I think it is more than appropriate to be concerned at this point.
This “we will be fine” stuff is willful ignorance.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
Well said, Johan.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
But again the basis of the article is that we have a good team that can survive a short absence of Reyes if other players step-up. What’s not true about that statement?
trs86
3/12/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
“The guys in camp are going to have to pick up the slack, find away to win without him, and focus on the start of the season. This team has too much talent to let something like this ruin their season, before it even starts.”
fongy2
3/12/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Thank!!!…Saved me the trouble of responding
to many of these absurd Posts/Posters who
somehow think the Phils would be that tough
this year.
I don’t want any bad kharma so, I wont wish it
upon them BUT the Phils would need something along the lines of what happened to us last yr
NOT to win around 95gms and the Division.
Polanco is an upgrade in everyway,Hamels should bounce back, Happ should con’t to get better,their Pen is greatly improved,the know how
to AND want to Win…AND they’re comin’ off a season THEY feel was a disapointment.
With the exception of the Yanks and Sox there
isn’t a better projected team in Baseball.
Yeah, I know it stinks and life would be ALOT easier if we were in the AL Central…..
But we’re not.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
Sigh
Fongy to the rescue of the Phillies again. LOL
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
THEY don’t need any rescue…..
WE do!!!
trs86
3/12/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
Then why is it that on here you always rush to defend them? It’s a Mets site. Some are going to bash the Phillies even when they are blatantly wrong. That’s not unusual. What is unusual is to see someone defending them when it happens.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
No one is defending the Phillies. But we’d be silly to ignore their presence and their accomplishments.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Come on Wanny. Fongy defends them any chance he can get. I admit they are a great team and we will have to have a very good season to defeat them and not having Reyes will make that more difficult but not impossible.
My point is that anytime anyone says something negative about the Phillies he rushes to defend them. That’s fine but this is a Mets site and people are going to rightfully and wrongfully bash the Phillies.
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry for being truthful TRS.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
I think in this case any defense of the Phillies was to put the Mets’ season in proper perspective.
If people are going to discuss whether the Mets can win the division that discussion necessitates a rational evaluation of the Phillies.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Again fongy, you can be truthful but you also have to allow a little Philly bashing on a Mets site right? Even if it’s blind.
This was the original comment. Now these points may not matter but they are true. Again why do we need to defend them here? The guy is not saying they stink. He is saying they have question marks and could struggle early like they have in the past. The Mets regardless of the Phillies have to worry about the Mets and get good pitching and Reyes and Beltran back ASAP.
“Don’t forget the phillies are notoriously slow starters and they aren’t without questions of their own!
Will their rotation be good after Halladay?
Lidge?
The other guys in their pen coming back from injury?
Bench?
Will rollins be a .250 hitter again?
The mets pitching (as everyone is saying) needs to hold up. The mets need to do as best as they can, not worry about the phillies, and reyes and beltran need to come back swinging.”
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
Really TRS…
Who Cares???
Why does it offend you
that I’m
realistic??
There have been few die-hards as blindly loyal
as me over the past 4decades AND
in addition to my love of The NY Mets,I’ve developed a
likewise hate of everything Yankees.
I have a strong distaste for
The Braves and
their fans as well because of how phoney they are.
I’m sorry if it bothers you that I don’t hate
but rather greatly respect The Phillies.
That respect makes it all the more painful to me that over the past couple yrs this team has done little right
in order to
push us over the top and past them.
Again, I’m into reality NOT fantasy..
And it simply seems that too many of my fellow Met fans live in some fantasy world when comparing us and them.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
That’s fine that you respect the Phillies. I just don’t see anything wrong with the comment above Fongy. You don’t have to defend them here because there is nothing to defend the guy told the truth.
But anyway we know you respect the Phillies but don’t you think on a Mets site it’s even healthy to have some posters blindly bashing our rival? Not that I have even seen anyone on here doing that lately to start with. They have just mentioned that the Phillies are not an all time great. They are very good but have question marks of their own and if things break right the Mets could beat them. Again, on a Mets site what is wrong with those assumptions?
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
They can blindly bash them all they
want.
I’m just bringing the
other side of that from a true,die-hard Mets fan
perspective.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
I understand that fongy but do you feel a need to do it anytime they bring up the Phillies? I understand that it’s realistic and I don’t normally bash them. I am just saying that lets also be realistic that on a Mets site you will find a healthy amount of Philly bashing.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
It was relevant to “defend” them this time because the comments directly implicated the Mets’ chances to win the division.
Why don’t you see that?
trs86
3/12/2010-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny this is an issue I am discussing with Fongy who always seems to defend them anytime their name is brought up. However, as to your point based on what the poster commented what in that post was not true? What needed defending?
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
Did you read the posts that followed or were you busy painting your nuts blue and orange?
trs86
3/12/2010-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
You got me, you wanna see?
fongy2
3/12/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
What Pitching???
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
fangraphs:
The Mets and Mejiaby R.J. Anderson – March 12, 2010 – Share this Article
Let’s just get this part out of the way: The Mets have issues. Lots of issues. But, as if Jose Reyes’ thyroid, repeated late-season meltdowns, questionable ownership finances, and an assistant general manager turning into Hulk Hogan weren’t bad enough, now this appears:
LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. – If Jenrry Mejia is assigned to the Mets’ Double-A team, he’s not going to be stretched out enough to immediately contribute in the Binghamton rotation. Jerry Manuel is determined to begin using Mejia in short and frequent relief spurts, to gauge how he reacts to pitching in that capacity, the Daily News has learned. The expectation is Mejia will remain in big-league camp through the final week working as a reliever.
The scariest part of this is not that Jerry Manuel is evidently making decisions on prospects. It’s that Omar Minaya is either in complete agreement or is totally indifferent to the situation at hand. Minaya’s job is to handle the team’s present and future assets with care and diligence. Manuel’s job is to manage the players assembled by Minaya and provide input on the margins, not to decide in autonomous fashion what capacity the team’s best pitching prospect should be used during spring. Neither is doing their job.
This becomes less of a possibility and more of a certainty once you realize who we’re talking about. Save the comparisons to Neftali Feliz and David Price. Neither began the season in their respective Major League team’s bullpen and both had more experience starting. Those two situations were of special circumstance (that circumstance being a heated playoff run). The Mets aren’t doing this to limit Mejia’s innings or propel them towards the playoffs. Well, they might actually be doing it for the latter, but more on that in a moment.
This is all tempting because Mejia is a great arm. Keith Law had his fastball sitting in the 93-96 range with cutting action and noted his overall repertoire as “top-of-the-rotation stuff†– big praise for a 20-year-old with a little over 150 innings of experience outside of short-season ball. Baseball America ranked Mejia as the Mets’ top prospect and quoted catcher Josh Thole as saying that the movement on Mejia’s heater convinced batters that it was a slider. They also note that Manuel watched Mejia during Arizona Fall League action to gauge whether he could be of relief help in 2010.
Could Mejia jump to the Majors in three weeks and succeed? Probably. He’d probably pitch quite well out of the bullpen. He has a fastball so hot that it removes the wrinkles from opposing hitters’ shirts. He could really dial that baby up even more in limited action. He might just be the best set-up man in the National League. Heck, maybe the next Mariano Rivera. And then what?
Well, then the Mets enter 2011, which happens to be the final year that Francisco Rodriguez is guaranteed a paycheck. It’s also the final year that Oliver Perez, Carlos Beltran, Jose Reyes, and Luis Castillo are under contract. It’s a big year. It could be the final year they have this nucleus to really go for it before drastically altering the look of the roster. So, maybe they move Mejia to the rotation. Maybe he hits the ground running and never looks back. Or maybe, like Joba Chamberlain, he has a few hiccups moving to the rotation permanently, and rather than sending him down, they send him to the bullpen where he once again turns the eighth inning into Hades for opposing hitters. And then what?
Well, then the Mets enter 2012 and Mejia is their closer. And then what?
Well, then the Mets enter 2013 and Mejia is still their closer. And so on.
Yes, that entire scenario is derived from a lack of confidence in the Mets and their ability to properly handle the situation. Did it fall down a slippery slope and is it a bit melodramatic? Yes, most likely. But at the same time, if they place Mejia in the pen it will open Pandora’s Box moving forward. More concisely: It sets the table for confirmation bias when Mejia is moved back to the rotation.
This isn’t Earl Weaver with Dennis Martinez, Wayne Garland, or Scott McGregor. Those guys had hundreds of minor league innings before Weaver broke them in as a long reliever. This is reckless handling of a long-term asset in order to save Manuel and Minaya’s jobs. Maybe that’s too harsh, but these guys have not earned the benefit of the doubt.
tkfj
3/12/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
If Mejia is forced into a reliever role………there are no words.
njstuckintx
3/12/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Wanny, appreciate the article. Makes me want to stick my fingers in my eyes, cover my eyes and go “LA LA LA LA LA, I CAN’T HERE YOU, LA LA LA LA”. This to me smells of someone (Omar and Jerry) thinking that they are going to do what ever it takes to stick around, future be damned.
At least it’s Friday and I’m told that when I die, on my deathbed, I will receive total consciousness. So I got that goin’ for me, which is nice.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Though I disagree with anything but sending Mejia down to AA as a starter, I have read that some scouts/evaluators think Mejia fits long-term in the pen.
It’s just stupid to not let him fail in the rotation first.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
In a nutshell, ‘Bingo’!
fongy2
3/12/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Thanks for this Wanny…I agree.
It really is scary to think Jerry would be making
these decisions.
Although I come from the Bill Parcells school of allowing the field guys make the call…Jerry is the wrong field guy. Nothing in his background indications he has the
ability to do so.
As for the headline…The Mets needed ALOT to go right
to be”Fine”…WITH Reyes,let alone without him.
This has all the makings to me of a real long season.
stickguy
3/12/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
there is one flaw to the logic. Jerry is the underling. He can think whatever he wants, but Omar gets to actually make the decision.
So if Omar lets it happen, he made the decision to allow it.
If Omar doesn’t want it, then he tells Jerry to cut the nonsense.
It also says little about the BB intelligence of the Wilpons, since it assumes they will only look at the # of wins when deciding on pulling Omar’s plug, instead of evaluation how he is safeguarding the assets of the franchise.
In any case, it should be stopped. Now.
maybe enough bad press will get Jeffy off the sidelines?
darknova306
3/12/2010-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on all counts. Jerry has SHOWN that he’s a terrible field guy. Why he’s given any decision making power is beyond me.
And if this rotation plays down to the level I expect, it’ll be quite a long season indeed.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Guy actually uses no stats as to where this could hurt Mejia. I don’t like it but over all longterm it may have no effect. If they let him try and make the pen and he does not make it then he takes a couple of weeks to get stretched out in AA and we move on. If he makes it then it’s not the end of the world. It would be because Jerry and Omar think he is ready. Not like he can’t go back to being a starter later like a lot of guys have such as Johan or Halladay.
Again I don’t like it but…
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
What stats would you like him to use? Is there a stat called “screwed with player’s development runs” or “ruined confidence index” or more importantly, “lost opportunities to maximize a players’ abilities by being shortsighted?”
Even if Mejia works out as a solid late game reliever, this is a stupid move because it will set back his development as a starter. He won’t be able to work on his stamina or all of his pitches.
This kid is not even as polished as Joba or Hughes. I have no problem working players into the rotation through the bullpen but this kid hasn’t developed what he needs to ultimately get there.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
I don’t even know if it’s an attempt to save one’s job that might be prompting them to even think about starting this season with Majia in the BP in short relief. That, I could almost understand – note I said almost. The effort to save one’s job would be almost human nature.
I’m leaning towards incompetence – well, maybe incompetence might be too harsh a word but just plain dumb when it comes to player development. Maybe that and a desperate attempt to succeed now, to change public opinion about how the Mets are currently regarded now – all rolled into one.
And how sad is that?
If they came out against public opinion, stood their ground on their decision to start Mejia in the BP come April b/c they thought it was the best way to go with his talents, I’d respect that. But no matter how you might spin it, I can’t make a case for how that’s the best utilization of his talents now.
Heck, with his limited experience, how does anyone really know at this point what his talents are/might be?
We might really have a diamond in the rough, that not too often ace in the making in our minor system. And it appears they’re getting set to screw that up….
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
I for one dont think incompetence is too strong!
As Al Leiter said last night, something is very wrong
here. Lack of communication, diagnosing, whatever…
How and why is seemingly everything thing that happens
with the New York Mets such a big deal???
Everything turns into a soap opera and worst case scenario.At some point the top PAID employees,FO Staff/
Managers most be held to account. It happens in EVERY
walk of life…Every business. THIS thing…OR..THAT
may not be the GMs fault, BUT taken as a whole……
Well, it’s his responsibility…..No???
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
I think we’ve got a couple of things that go on when it comes to the Mets:
1. They’re a big market team being covered by dozens and dozens of beat writers, etc.
If you look at say, the Royals, they’ve probably got 2 guys in the clubhouse looking for stories. In NY you’ve got many.
2. And with that many beat writers looking to write a story on any given day, you’ve got dozens all picking and writing on the same point. So it’s magnified.
3. The Mets reputation lately is preceding them, so any questionable decision is mocked and over analyzed by the dozens.
4. And well, they’ve put themselves in a position whereby they almost have to be 110% smart to overcome this position they’ve put themselves in.
And to me, the only thing that will change the perception across the board is winning….
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, Al liked it when he was a player and could talk to the Wilpons and get a player traded. haha.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
Ted Berg is really on a roll about Cora…
He’s reporting that Rubin is reporting that Jerry is making a case for Tejada being the opening day SS instead of Cora.
‘But if that’s true, that means that this off season, coming off a season in which their starting shortstop got hurt, the Mets signed a backup shortstop that their own manager was not comfortable starting if their starting shortstop got hurt.’
Yikes!
Me, I’m leaning towards Jerry being less than stellar at making some decisions than the FO has been lately.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
He was not signed to be backup SS as much as he was backup 2B.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Holy defender of all things Mets… REALLY?
Who do you envision as the backup SS from the players likely to make the opening day roster and which of them were signed to be the backup at SS?
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Argenis Reyes.
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
So???……ANOTHER Omar failure???….No back-up
plan with Reyes coming off major surgery???
ceetar
3/12/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
he said ‘as much’. we pretty much knew Reyes was good in January.
figure 5 games at SS for Cora, maybe 10-15 at 2B was the plan.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
We knew Reyes was good?
Had you seen him play real baseball games over the course of time following surgery to his hamstrings?
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed again…The only guy I remember having “Surgery”
to one of his hammys was Kirk Gibson…who returned a shell of himself.
So granted Reyes is young, a better athlete etc…
But like most things w/Omar…No plan B.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
So again shortsighted that they did not get another guy for MI> However, still say Cora was brought in more to backup 2B.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
One of Omar or TRS, if not both, are nuts.
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Really!!!…This is crazy.
Here’s a kid,26y/o, World Class
type athlete,in his prime….
Gets hurt in Mid-May…takes SIX
months to figure out whats really wrong with him and how to fix it…
THEN THREE more months to find out
he has blood test issues…..
WHAT???…Is this 1810 or 2010???
njstuckintx
3/12/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Seems to be closer to 2012.
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Ha,ha…funny!
trs86
3/12/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy as for this current issue don’t you think it’s possible that this issue just came up? So saying 3 months might not be accurate.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks Wanny. Appreciate the support. LOL. I would get offended if I did not know the source.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
I think he was supposed to be the backup MI… but I don’t think there’s a difference.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
You know I wanted the Mets to sign another MI guy. But Cora was brought in because of Castillo. It’s shortsighted but I think they expected Reyes to be healthy and only need at most 20 games off and that Cora could most likely do.
fongy2
3/12/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
I thought Cora was brought in for leadership,heart,guts,grit,etc,etc,etc……………
trs86
3/12/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
I would think he was. You of all people know the value of that right?
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah BUT you also have to be able to play….
trs86
3/12/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
True to an extent. Unless you are Eric Bruntlett.
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
True Dat!
The Phillies I think finally learned that
when he was needed for big ABs in the WS.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:30pm at 1:30 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. To me and you will say I am bashing but they have not done enough to upgrade their bench to keep that from happening again. However, their health does not seem to be in question so perhaps it will not matter.
ceetar
3/12/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
There’s a huge disconnect being more and more obvious between Manuel and the front office. And with such a crappy manager with a short leash, do you really sign your bench guys to fit what he wants, or what you think is best?
Just Jerry’s way of discarding a guy that works hard, plays hard, and doesn’t complain for a guy that might not even be ready, talent wise, to play.
I suspect if Jose passes his tests before the season starts it’ll be Cora almost definitely.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I’m kinda getting sick of Jerry talking now. He just needs to shut up.
njstuckintx
3/12/2010-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
Where is the gag order, indeed.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Hey Jermaine Dye is still a FA. Can’t the Mets sign him for 2-3M and have him on the bench? Perhaps he can play SS while Reyes is gone?
trs86
3/12/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
LOL
gipperpdx
3/12/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sorry, buty what was the point of the Seven Train to Shea Article? It seemed to boil down to: “this sucks, but as fans we MUST be positive.”
Huh?
No reasons given as to whu to be positive. Positive because of Alex Cora? C’mon!
And, really, why do we fans “have to be positive?” Seems to me we have every reason to be frustrated, angry, depressed and pessimistic.
trs86
3/12/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Mostly my impression is that we should be positive because it was found early and he should not miss much time. Also that we have a very good team that still has a lot of very good players that hopefully can step up during what we also hope to be a very short absence.
gipperpdx
3/12/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
*ugh….iPhone….”…but what was the point…” and “…as to why to be positive.”
trs86
3/12/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
I just don’t see the point of dooming the season in March.
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
No one’s saying “Doom”….Just tryin’ to be realistic here….Where are the Runs gonna come from?…Where will the quality Starting Pitching
come from??…Who’s gonna hold leads before we
can hand the ball to KRod???
trs86
3/12/2010-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe from Pagan, Castillo, Wright, Bay, Francouer, Murphy? It’s not the Phillies for sure but that group of scrubs last year still hit very well absent power. Again the loss hurts but right now it depends on how long he is gone. Right?
fongy2
3/12/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
My friend,Pagan/Castillo/Wright/
Bay/Frenchy/Murphy/Barajas/Cora..
Is a VERY ordinary NL line-up….
Now combine THAT with VERY questionable SP AND an even more questionable BP (Except KRod)….
AND…A below average Field Manager….Well….Not good.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Right so players will have to step up while they are gone. Now as to the the ordinary NL lineup I disagree but you are right it would not be an elite. Again unless players step up.
Realistically it will be very tough to compete without Reyes for an extended period of time. Optimistically hopefully players take it as a challenge and step up.
stickguy
3/12/2010-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
By average, if you mean mid-pack, I guess that is true. Maybe in the upper half of the middle. But certainly as good as plenty of teams that make the playoffs. And certainly good enough to score runs and win some games.
No arguement at all about Jerry.
Take out the VERY about the SP.
And I disagree about an even more questionable BP. They seem to have plenty of talent out there to sort through.
udontmesswthejohan
3/12/2010-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
TRS, don’t make us sound like we are that dude Alex. This is totally different. Not saying give up on the season, just saying be realistic and admit that right now things look a lot like they did when the season ended last year.
trs86
3/12/2010-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
Right now it’s March Udon’t. If we are having this discussion in May I become a lot more worried. At this point we don’t even know how long he will be out.
All I have said is that we have the talent if those players step-up to survive a Reyes loss if that loss is short-term. Can’t be more realistic than that in my opinion.
stickguy
3/12/2010-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
If you want some positiviality, how about at least a big chuck of the time Beltran and Reyes are missing is ST.
Think of how much it would have sucked if the both started opening day, then want down with these issues before game 2?
Hey, there is a silver lining in every cloud, if you look hard enough!
ANd really, why is Jerry still here? has he done anything in the off season or ST to indicate he has learned anything new? Or improved? Not that I can see.
How much damage is he going to cause before they pull the plug on him? Especially if Omar is abdicating responsibility for making player decisions.
Frankly, the manager should only have a seat at the table to make requests, and a certain amount of latitude to use the roster he is given. But he shouldn’t be deciding to take a raw prized SP prospect and force feed him into a reliever.
Just say WWWD – What would Wally (backman) do?
trs86
3/12/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
You had me until that last line. Now I have to respond “Get drunk and slap his wife”?
Bad but anyway….
As for your points on Mejia, lets just wait and see how it plays out. Jerry is just doing what we all would do fighting for his job. He’s not very good but you can’t blame him for wanting the best team possible.
ceetar
3/12/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
I think Omar’s going about this all wrong. He’s probably thinking he’ll get criticized for firing Manuel “Another manager firing? Maybe it’s not the manager that’s the problem!”, but no matter who the manager is Omar’s walking the edge and if the Mets struggle he’ll be gone, so wouldn’t it make sense to bring in a more talented manager?
trs86
3/12/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed but what we don’t know is if this is Omar’s decision.
stickguy
3/12/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Yup. Just win baby!
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I step away from an hour or two to go a couple of rounds with the phone company (3 lines coming into the house, none of which work right now)…And it looks like the frustration level has peaked for my fellow Met fans.
Just some observations from me rather than replying to individual comments above:
- To those who want to know why Jerry is still the manager? I really have no idea but you have to assume he’s on a short leash.
- I don’t think it’s blind optimism some of us have but an unwillingness to even remotely think (yet) 2010 is gonna be a repeat of 2009.
- If I never read another ‘respect the Phillies’ comment on TRDMB, it will be too soon.
stickguy
3/12/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
I hate the Phillies, their fans, and everything the team stands for.
The only thing I like is the sausage and pepper heros at CBP. They are very tasty fresh.
njstuckintx
3/12/2010-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I have to say I dislike the Braves a great deal more than the Phils. I do hold their fan base in lower regards, based upon happenings through the years within the 4 major sports, but the team doesn’t hold that place in my heart as the Braves do. It’s actually going to be a sad day when Chipper retires just cause I want the Mets to kick the crap out of his team again and again and again.
I still remember that freaking homerun Pendleton hit off the mets (McDowell I believe) in 1987.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
You know it’s funny. I hate the Braves fans but respect their players. As a baseball fan Bobby Cox those string of pitchers and yes Chipper Jones. Lots of class there.
As for the Phillies I like a few of their players but for the most part I hate the players and the fans.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
This crossed my mind awhile ago….
How much more ‘grit’ and ‘heart’ do you think those Braves will be playing with this year to give Bobby Cox the send off they think he deserves – one last trip to the post season?
Could be dangerous….
metsgirl31
3/12/2010-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
Agree will ALL your observations.
metsgirl31
3/12/2010-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
*with
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
And how about this – just to throw some positive thinking out there:
Yanks started out last season with no Alex, a crappy BP outside of Mo, and questionable starters as their big signings were less than consistent to start out.
And their other big signing – Tex – didn’t pick up the slack for ARods absence – rather he hovered around the mendosa line for quite a while and actually didn’t pick it back up until ARod did return and he got some protection.
Their offense turned around with ARod’s return, their starters got more consistent, their BP started putting it together – they started those come from behind wins.
If Beltran and Reyes make it back in a month, why can’t we pick up and go gung-ho from that point on?
I’ve been saying it since the end of 2009 – pitching, pitching, pitching. It’s all going to depend on our starters not named Johan.
stickguy
3/12/2010-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
nice thought process. And Reyes + Beltan > A Roid.
Just hope like heck that Reyes is back way before Beltran. Like 4/15 latest, but I still wouldn’t be surprised to see him opening day.
Beltran I also expect to be back on the early end of his range, maybe even before it. Although that might just bewishful thinking.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
But they did not have the Phillies in their division.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
They had two _BETTER_ teams in their division.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar you know I was joking.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
and a younger Roy Halladay. (1 year, fine)
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
hahahaha
But, but, but, they’ve got the Red Sox.
stickguy
3/12/2010-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
bottom line, make a line up out of the players you have. With Bay and Wright in the middle, that is still a real good start.
Other than that, like almost every other team, you have to mix/match your role players game to game.
Even playoff teams like the dodgers and Rockies have weak players starting every day.
I think many Met fans have their vision clouded by years of Yankee abuse, and the once a century good period by the Phils (insert blind squirrel joke here).
The Yanks have the payroll.
And the Phils hit the jackpot with a couple of home growns hitting at the same time, and a few scrap heap guys blossoming.
But it won’t last. No team ever does.
But, if all you compare your team (the Mets) to is those 2 teams, youmight get a complex.
But the Yankees only count 6 games a year. And even if the Phils win 120 games, the Mets still can get the WC.
So forget about both those teams, except for the 24 games/year you play them.
And even missing a few weeks or Reyes, and maybe 6 of beltran, the Mets are plenty good (with please god no more big injuries) to compete with the 2nd best team in each division.
Dodgers? Giants? Brewers? Cards? Cubs? Braves?
How many of those teams are so obviously better than the Mets, even as they stand today?
And even if you concede the division to the Phils, as long as the Mets can hold onto 2nd, it means that 2 teams in some other division have to have better records to miss the WC.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets are by no means out of it. It’s still a huge blow and a shock and depressing, but that doesn’t mean we go on a fire everyone, trade Beltran the Mets are a disaster binge..we look for the guys that are going to keep us in the hunt. Some if it’s not as much of a stretch as it may seem.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, I am not counting out the division yet either. Things just have to break right and players have to step-up.
njstuckintx
3/12/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Just win baby. By hook or by crook. Never say die. Play the hand you’re dealt. Maybe add in there another poignant phrase or 2.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Whoa.
The object is to win the division. Winning the wild card leaves too much in the control of others.
I am not convinced the Mets are better at full strength than any of the teams you mention, let alone without two of its best offensive and defensive players for up to a month. 4 of those teams, if not all 6 of them, can pitch circles around the Mets current staff.
If the Mets are better than those teams the difference is small enough to become undone by a lost month without two key players (not to mention whatever lingering issues remain with them and others including Maine and his shoulder, etc.)
And sorry, two guys do not make a lineup these days.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
So at this point what should we do Wanny? We have said that it will be difficult but not impossible. Would you rather we take out the not?
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
I would like for you, in particular, to stop being a Mets apologist and at least recognize that the concerns that many have expressed here are valid rather than coming up with rah rah excuses to believe and logically unsupported arguments like “the Phillies start slow so the Mets can still win” or that “other guys in the clubhouse must step up (presumably referring to the all-star talents of GMJ/Pagan and Cora).”
Of course, the Mets can still have a good season. But it’s plainly obvious to anyone looking at the situation objectively that this is a horrible way to start and could very likely result in another season lost before the summer.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
So I should not say realistic things like “he Phillies start slow so the Mets can still win†or that “other guys in the clubhouse must step up’? Because those things are illogical and can’t happen.
Gotcha. Instead I should be showing you my painted balls that instead of blue and orange I should now paint black for death. Got it. Thanks Wanny.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
I tried to explain the problem with the logic behind the Phillies start slow argument.
First of all, there’s no reason to expect that to happen again.
Second, even if they start slow they’ve shown that they are able to outplay the Mets in the middles and ends of seasons.
Third, and most importantly, the wins the Mets do not get in April and May will still be missed in August and September. The total number of wins at the end of the season is what’s important. And the Mets will need as many of them as possible. There is no way you can credibly demonstrate that they are heads and shoulders better than the Phillies or even the Braves or Marlins.
Just as easy as you can expect the Phillies to start slow, you can expect the Mets to finish disastrously.
Next, if you expect Alex Cora or Angel Pagan to perform anywhere near the levels of Beltran and Reyes, you’re delusional.
No one is saying the season is dead. The point I am trying to make, as I think others are too, is that your insistence on optimism is agitating given the obvious and substantial barriers that have been presented. You are acting as a Crusader, insisting everyone share in your blind optimism when people have very tangible reasons for concern. Your type of false security is what blows up in the faces of the unexpecting all the time.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
So my blind optimism is “it will be difficult but not impossible”
Where on here did I say it would be easy? Seems realistic to me in that I have said that if others step-up that we can overcome a short period of no Jose.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not blind. You can’t change the fact that this is a blow, but it’s also not automatically making the Mets lose games. They still have to play them.
Sure, the Phillies aren’t guarenteed to play slow to start the season, they’re also not guarenteed to play well to end the season. Halladay isn’t guarenteed to have a good season, and Hamels certainly isn’t.
Yes, April wins count too, but if the Mets are in a good position in June in relation to the Phillies, they have the ability to control their own destiny, which means, outplay the Phillies and you’re in, regardless as to what has happened prior to that point.
And even if the Mets are 10 games out in June, they still control that destiny.
No, Cora and Pagan won’t replicate what Beltran and Reyes would do. for the most part. But Murphy could have a hot month, Pagan could honestly have an excellent month. Perez could get off to a hot start. All these things, while not as good as having Beltran and Reyes, could contribute the Mets winning games they wouldn’t have won “on paper”. And they’re all reasonable possibilities.
It’s nota false security, but merely a blueprint for what we’re looking to happen, and what legitimately could happen, for the Mets to be in a good position for these guys return.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. We are just saying that if things break right and if players like Wright and Bay perform or PMP do well we can hang in until they return.
ceetar
3/12/2010-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
I think i like MOP better than PMP.
trs86
3/12/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
PMPin
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
even last season wasn’t lost before the summer.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets had their regulars to start the season.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
First mate: There’s a leak in the boat from a hole in the bow.
Captain: Ahh, there’s plenty of boat left.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:33pm at 2:33 pm (UTC -4)
Ahhhhhhh panic, panic, panic. Lets all jump.
gategem
3/12/2010-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
Actually wouldn’t it be wiser to allow the band to play while the ship sinks?
trs86
3/12/2010-9:42pm at 9:42 pm (UTC -4)
As long as I get to rearrange the chairs, they just don’t look right like that.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not just two guys though. Castillo gets on base like crazy, creating runs. Pagan has played very well in his Mets tenure. Francoeur’s a small sample size, but he can drive in some runs too. People go back and forth on Murphy, but I think he’ll have a fair enough year as well. The lineup isn’t quite ‘empty’, and can certainly score enough runs to win.
It’s the pitching, which is nowhere near as bad as people pretend it is, that will make or break the season.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
Castillo scored 77 runs last year. That’s not crazy.
And he doesn’t create very many by actually swinging the bat.
But your point is fair in that Castillo is not an empty spot in the lineup.
I have faith in Murphy too but I would write him in ink as a contributor just yet.
I have no faith in Francoeur at all. If he is the Mets third best hitter for an extended period of time we will have muchos problemos.
Angel Pagan has spent more time on the DL than off of it during his Mets tenure. Enthusiasm regarding him should be cautious.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
Definitely cautious on Pagan, but again, we’re talkinga bout staying off the DL for a month, not a year, and some of his injuries (diving into the stands) have been a little flukey.
I don’t have a lot of faith in Francoeur either, but he’s at least shown that he has the potential for some decent stretches like with the Mets last year. None of these are ‘in ink’, but they’re also not ‘in invisible ink’ either.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
Thing is I have not seen anyone on here saying they have faith that the Mets will win or that they will survive Reyes and Beltran being out. We have just said over and over that it is possible to survive if things break right and players step-up. Blind optimism.
DNDJohan aka kistics
3/12/2010-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Where is Argenis Reyes when we need him?!
trs86
3/12/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, I guess someone will have to fill in for Tejada in AA.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
You know I watched the movie Old Dogs with my family last night and I think I understand where some are coming from (not wanny because he wants me to paint my balls and that’s just nasty). I guess perhaps some of us are like Robin Williams bringing a new dog to a dog’s funeral and giving it to the owner. Some of us get over a tremendous blow quicker than others. Some need more time to mourn the loss of a great companion (or player) while others jump right back up and take the new dog and move on. I am sure that does not make sense to anyone but me but that’s ok. I think I understand now. So what some of you guys need is time to wallow in sorrow.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
I saw them filming Old Dogs. Twice. Once in terminal 4 at Laguardia, and another time near Grand Central.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
It was not terrible. Had some good moments in it when they mixed up medicine. Hit home there as my friend and I were discussing the other day how old we feel because we have to take a bunch of daily pills.
ceetar
3/12/2010-2:48pm at 2:48 pm (UTC -4)
I despise daily pills.(only taking daily supplements myself, which don’t count. Garlic mostly, and probiotics) I always meant to see the movie, don’t think I ever did.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
I take Claritin and a bunch of vitamins nothing prescribed yet.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
In the context of your silly analogy, you might be in the grief stage of denial.
trs86
3/12/2010-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
Nope, already moved on Wanny. Denial occurred when the news first come out. Anger occurred when the Mets seemed to botch the situation. Depression occurred when the report came out that he would be out for 2-8 weeks. Moving on came when I looked at the roster and realized we still have a very good team and if players step-up we can still contend IF Reyes is only out a short period of time.
Sorry if my “blind optimism” bothers you.
Again, I am not sure what I could have said to make you happy besides calling myself and nut and painting my balls. That’s why I said a long time ago that I consider the source and I am sure you do to when you read my comments.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
As an animal lover and avid dog crusader, I have to avoid all dog pictures, just can’t handle them. Even pictures like Old Yeller…and no way in hell I was ever watching Marley after reading the book. Now I’ll be adding ‘Old Dogs’ to my list…
With me, it’s optimism until the end, and then it’s the pragmatic no use crying over spilled milk adage.
I can’t change fate, don’t have any say in what the FO/management does, can’t play the games for the players.
As a fan, all I can do is live and die with my team, watching them play.
Doesn’t stop me though from periodically commenting ‘ARE YOU KIDDING ME????’
trs86
3/12/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, well there is only about a 20 second scene on the dog. The actual title refers to the guys in the movie.
metsfan4decades
3/12/2010-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
Ah….got it.
stickguy
3/12/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny, from a practical view (not they have problems, or some such), what exactly do you think they should do now to help win as many games as possible?
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
There’s not a whole lot they can do at this point given the scarcity of available free agents. They’ll have to monitor the Spring Training trade wire closely for starting pitchers or a credible SS if one becomes available. Lost in all of this is that the rotation still stinks.
Again, my problem today has been the initial reaction to shrug this off as not that big of a deal. Any games without Reyes, especially while Beltran is out, are a big deal.
The attitude that the team can just turn it on later is a bad one.
trs86
3/12/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny I tried not to ever give the impression that this was not a big deal. Just that it was not insurmountable if he returns quickly. As for SS what about Alex Cintron or Ramon Vasquez? Neither are great but how good are you going to find now?
stickguy
3/12/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
about that good.
wannybackstra
3/12/2010-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
I guess Vasquez could be better than Cora. But maybe not.
I think as Fongy and others have said, the real play was to have someone better than Cora locked up a while ago given Reyes’s status post surgery.
The problem was that they locked up Cora immediately.
stickguy
3/12/2010-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
don’t forget, if they start Cora, you need another MI bench guy. And I refuse to start C&C with Tatis being the back up plan for both!