Generally, I am very much a glass ¾ full, sunshiner optimist. But the last week has severely drained my very deep well of positivity.
For much of March, I definitely was subscribing to the sensible idea that spring training stats mean little. And they usually do.
But there are of course exceptions. The 2010 Met bullpen really had just two set members in February, KRod and Feliciano. The two of them have been excellent this spring.
The rest of the pen hopefuls have ranged from mediocre to horrid. Takahashi has been pretty good overall. Misch, Figueroa, and Dessens have been fine, but they are all pitchers who have largely been awful during most of their entire careers.
That leaves the guys who were expected to comprise the pen after KRod and Feliciano: Parnell, Igarashi, Nieve, Green, and Calero.
All five of these guys have been downright bad. And all five of them have been competing for a better spot in the pen, if not actually fighting for a spot in the majors. Ignoring their stats is not optimism, it is denial. The stats of every pen member other than KRod have mattered, and when unwanted, waiver-clearing retreads like Misch, Figueroa, and Dessens, and a rookie with less than 50 innings above A ball are by far the four best potential bullpen guys other than Feliciano all spring, there indeed might be a serious problem. When guys are fighting for spots, their numbers count; this is why the pen is an undecided mess on April 1. And bear in mind, many of the innings later in games that these guys have thrown have consisted of facing minor leaguers.
————————————————————–
The rotation has actually been even worse. All five starters have been terrible. Really, really terrible. We can throw out Johan’s numbers, but can we throw out everyone else’s? Niese’s numbers sure mean something, as he also has been fighting for a rotation spot, and has won it by default, not by performance. We apparently cannot obtain anyone new, Takahashi appears to lack the stamina needed, and Figueroa, while a very nice man and a hard worker, has never shown much aptitude when it comes to baseball-related activities. Again, if Figueroa and Dessens can have good springs, shouldn’t we expect at least a FEW other pitchers who are fighting for a spot to follow suit?
Pelf, Ollie, and Maine are all coming off disappointing lost years, in one sense or another. One would think that they would, at least at the end of spring, be successfully working towards getting themselves ready for the season and that their latter starts would show some sort of sharpness or at least improvement. We have seen the complete opposite. Pelf was shelled last time out, Ollie looked precisely like the Bad Ollie constantly referred to by the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity, and has Maine appeared once this spring without an excuse for why he has been terrible?
If the pitchers are “working on things†as I myself typed a lot over the last 5 weeks, one must begin to wonder if they have gotten anywhere. If Pelf is working on secondary pitches, are they any good? If Ollie is simply trying to throw strikes and still missing with impressive consistency, should we be worried? Will Maine ever go 6 innings again?
And most disturbing of all, what has Dan Warthen been doing with our pitching staff this spring?
————————————————————–
I still cannot wait for the opener, and the offense, defense, and baserunning all have the potential to be somewhere between good and excellent. The soon-to-be-ready Junior Core in Buffalo looks truly impressive, and we might see the best crop of late-season callups since Mookie, Wally, and Hubie in 1980; indeed the future looks very bright, and the “window†for this group remains wide open.
But what can we expect in 2010 from a pitching staff whose every member—with two exceptions—has been throwing batting practice nonstop for the last 5 weeks? Literally other than one outing each for Johan and Ollie, have all five rotation guys pitched more than two good games between them?
I am not a pessimist; I will watch and enjoy as long as the players try hard and care, and with the group we have being apparently invigorated by the excellent attitudes of Bay and Francoeur, this seems like a certainty. I am not trying to fan the flames of a civil war on a wonderful site, but to this fan of 35+ years, it is definitely time for serious concern. While I do not question the financial aspects of the decision by the Met brass to avoid career mediocrities like Marquis, Wolf, Pineiro, and Garland, it is indeed looking like this may not have been the best baseball decision. Hopefully the money not spent on pitching will be liberally available for in-season moves. Last fall we seemingly mostly agreed that the days of Pelf, Ollie, and Maine as 2-3-4 in the rotation were clearly over. Now we stand at April 1, and Pelf cannot get anyone out, Ollie’s velocity and control have seriously regressed since early March, and Maine is still a mess. And they remain 2-3-4.
Here’s hoping our friend Omar is working the phones to pick up an Arroyo or someone similar. If what we have seen this spring is any indication, the folks who all offseason constantly repeated the mantra of the desperate need for just about anyone who could go 6 innings with regularity may indeed have been a lot righter than many of us thought. Here’s hoping that spring stats indeed still mean nothing, even when the calendar reads “April.†Nothing would please me more than to eat a large plate of my own spring training words all season long.
107 comments
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
I am sincerely sorry for kicking you while you’re down, but if we are to believe the great Mike Francesa, Arroyo is a “favorite” of the owner of the Reds and therefore “is going nowhere.” As the eager female fortune teller said to the handsome rich gentleman, would you settle for a happy medium (such as Harang)?
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA! Well, it would all depend on who we had to trade. While I do believe this team has a lot of talent and in all seriousness one reliable starter could make a world of difference, yes, if we did not have to trade Mejia/Davis/Thole/FMart, I will take Harang.
But that could be the bourbon I am listening to….
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:11pm at 10:11 pm (UTC -4)
But have the spirits kicked enough to embrace the unthinkable, Pedro 2.0? Yes, that Pedro…
I know never happen, but at least we wouldn’t have to trade any prospects. Other problem is they would have to bite the bullet and just give up on Ollie which will never happen given his salary. Could Ollie soon take on the roll of most expensive MOP up man? Would be kind of fitting given are for the acronym MOP this spring.
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:13pm at 10:13 pm (UTC -4)
Sign Pedro for number 5 and send Niese to Buffalo where he belongs.
And thanks for calling this a good read; that means a lot coming from you.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:19pm at 10:19 pm (UTC -4)
Thx, your passion for our crew is always two thumbs up.
The scary thing is I think Niese will actually perform better than Ollie over the course of the year and I’ve never been a believer in Niese at this point in his development. Maybe a sign Pedro and use a six man rotation with a combo of Pedro/Ollie every 5th day. Think Pollie as our 5th starter? Sounds like I’ve been drinking.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-10:18pm at 10:18 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, Harang is arguably a worse option than anyone currently listed in the Mets starting rotation. I know it’s “just spring” but his spring numbers are worse than those of anyone currently in the Mets rotation. Add to that that Harang has been awful for 2 full seasons now and the purpose he best serves is to make the Mets starters look better by comparison. So there’s that.
Now is probably an appropriate (if not good) time to remind that Johan Santana, after his last bone chip surgery leading into 2004, started off 2-4, 5.50 after his first 12 starts, before finishing so strong he won the Cy Young award.
It’s always darkest before the dawn?
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
You are probably right; I would love Arroyo, but Harang’s last two years are scary indeed. No on him.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:05pm at 10:05 pm (UTC -4)
I was writing this on the side to post at some point and I think your good read is as good a place as any so for community consumption:
Sitting back with nothing to do tonight I thought I’d take another look at the matchups for the first month of the season. Here’s how the rotation lays out and some W-L combined lifetime vs. those clubs.
Santana: Florida (O), Washington, Cards, Atlanta (O), Phils (O) Lifetime 18-8
Maine: Florida, Rockies (O), Cubs (O), Atlanta Lifetime 10-9
Niese: Florida, Rockies, Cubs, Dodgers (O) Lifetime: N/A
Pelfrey: Washington (O), Rockies, Cubs, Dodgers Lifetime 7-8
Perez: Washington, Cards (O), Cubs, Dodgers Lifetime 12-18
Combined record 47-43 (with nothing for Niese)
Combined record without Santana 24-35
Note: Santana is 1-5 vs. Atlanta. Take that out of the mix and he’s 17-3 against the rest = sick.
What jumps out as obvious is how great Santana is and as equally how awful Ollie is. Not that any of us didn’t know this but it’s stark how polar opposite they are. If Ollie could even just be .500 how much better could we be? He essentially cancels out all of Santana’s greatness. Looking at it that way, I’m thinking the season doesn’t depend on MOP, it depends on MNP with Niese and not Maine now being the X-Factor. Quite the burden for a rookie.
I weighed in a couple of weeks ago on the Sunday question as the Mets ending the first month at 10-11. Given the above I think the teams record for games started by each Pitcher could shake out:
Santana 4-1, Maine 2-2, Niese 1-3, Pelfrey 2-2, Ollie 1-3.
Anyway, just some randomness for consideration. MNP the new MOP?
LGM
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
*(O) = first game of series
metsfan4decades
4/1/2010-10:14pm at 10:14 pm (UTC -4)
Expectations being what they are right now, which is not as good as I’d like….for April, Johan aside, I’ll take a winning record for one of the other 4 and .500 from the other 3. If we get better than that, I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
It was going to be hard enough with Beltran out for April, now Jose for who knows how long, added now Murphy for a month/month and a half. We need this pitching to keep us in games until both Jose and Beltran are back.
(and oh god….I really thought we would be done with the mantra of ‘until the calvary returns’.)
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:26pm at 10:26 pm (UTC -4)
Kind of exactly how I feel too. As I get ready for this season I have a definite “buckle your seat belt and place your trays in the upright position” feel for the start of the year. None of this warm easing into spring, enjoying the return of baseball waiting for hotly contested summer games against our rivals.
If the Met’s had a cavalry their horses would most likely be put down out of the gate.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:25pm at 10:25 pm (UTC -4)
Last April the Mets had more games that they gave up 5 or more runs than they did not. May the SP was not great but we just took care of business regardless, having our best May in team history. Baseball is a funny game.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
So true, it is indeed a marathon.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-10:35pm at 10:35 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, last April the Mets played 21 games, going 9-12, giving up 5 or more runs in 10 of the 21 games. They were 1-9 in those 10 games.
In May they allowed 5 or more runs in 9 of 28 games. They were 3-6 in those 9 games.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:46pm at 10:46 pm (UTC -4)
You are right I miss counted. I had them with 11 games instead of 10. Pretty close. And in May they did pitch much better.
metsfan4decades
4/1/2010-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, Yup and Yup.
Not much more to be said. I’m waiting for the season to start and keeping my fingers crossed these pitchers flip the switch. All signs point to we’re in trouble with the pitching as it’s currently constructed but we won’t really know one way or the other until they start pitching in the season.
Sports Night is saying KRod left the club to go home b/c it’s being reported his brother was in a serious car accident. Here’s hoping he’s O.K., for his sake, his family and the team. They are reporting he’s expected to be with the team come opening day.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:14pm at 10:14 pm (UTC -4)
“Ibanez has struggled to get his bat going this spring but manager Charlie Manuel isn’t worried. “You know something? I’ve seen guys in spring training over and over and I can sit here naming guys who had terrible springs,” said Manuel. “And when the season started they were fine. Or even if they got off to a slow start they ended up having a pretty good year. That’s kind of the way we’ve got to let Ibanez play out.”"
Not the same but it is nice to see a manager go to bat for his players.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:20pm at 10:20 pm (UTC -4)
I am just not sure what the point of the post is Kingman. Do we all know that the pitching has struggled? Yes. Do we all know that if it continues to struggle then we are sunk? Yes. Do we all know that a lot will have to break right either way for the Mets to contend for a playoff spot this year? Yes. Where we may differ what we THINK will happen once the season starts. What makes any of us more right or wrong at this point? Sure we can be realist but what is real at this point? Right now with the season having not started yet you either have to be optimistic that it can turn around or pessimistic that it won’t.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-10:24pm at 10:24 pm (UTC -4)
Well only the author truly knows the point of his work, but I have a couple guesses:
- getting something off his chest
- revealing that even an optimist has doubts, and that’s ok
- spring training is too long, and coverage of it too overbearing in the 24 hour news cycle
- there hasn’t been a new post for 8 hours, that’s unforgivable
trs86
4/1/2010-10:29pm at 10:29 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, it’s seems as though Kingman’s switch has indeed flipped recently. Perhaps the Mets pitching can flip their switch as quickly as his. You are right this off-season has been tiring but to me the continued complaining about our pitching at this point is pointless (other than to get it off your chest). This is what we got and we are stuck with it for now. It’s either you are optimistic that they can turn it around or you don’t think they will. Right now it’s anybody’s guess.
I don’t think you can be a Conservative Democrat or Liberal Republican.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-10:31pm at 10:31 pm (UTC -4)
there you go again with your labels.
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:32pm at 10:32 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, I don’t know what to say.
It is an opinion piece.
So I will say nothing.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, it’s your opinion Kingman. Just like anything that I post. I get heated criticism all the time for things I write. Just saying I am not sure the purpose of the post.
Is it to tell us the pitching has stunk in ST?
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-10:30pm at 10:30 pm (UTC -4)
We are finally ready for baseball. No more debate. No more theories. No more excuses. Yet you want to talk about Spring Training? Who cares it is Spring Training. I mean King, even if they went perfect and never gave up a run do you actually believe that it would mean anything come Opening Day?
Look at Figueroa and Misch they pitched well they pitched for a job do you have faith in them because of Spring Training? I know you don’t for Figueroa.
It is Spring Training, S-P-R-I-N-G- T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G so what if you are right? What if what you say is 100% accurate what then? Will you alter anything that you are planning to do? Are you going to demand for the Mets to trade MOP away this week because of Spring Training?
Probably not right? You are going to do what you would have done regardless watch the game and rip them based on their regular season games nothing else.
So let all this Spring Training stuff go and if they fail you come regular season then go ballistic.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. I can’t believe I am agreeing with you from the beginning and disagreeing with Kingman. Damn please let the regular season start, everything is messed up.
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:33pm at 10:33 pm (UTC -4)
You guys are too much.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
lol but am i wrong?
trs86
4/1/2010-10:35pm at 10:35 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, I am not really sure what you want us to do? Sit around saying oh man, we are going to suck this year? No one is parading around saying we will be 1st place and everything will be fine. Most of us are just saying wait until the season actually starts before we start saying how bad we are, you know when the games actually count. If you are right it won’t take that long.
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
I like the Mets.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:42pm at 10:42 pm (UTC -4)
Good, so do I.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
Mike Sweeney is hitting: .543 with a .943 SLG. He will obviously continue to hit like this once the season starts. Defend/counter this statement.
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:42pm at 10:42 pm (UTC -4)
Do you want to critique the value of each others’ posts?
trs86
4/1/2010-10:43pm at 10:43 pm (UTC -4)
Nope, just let me know if Mike Sweeney will have an OPS of 1.400+
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:47pm at 10:47 pm (UTC -4)
No, that is ridiculous. I think once the hitters catch up to the pitchers, he will get it up to about 1.650.
I also think Feliciano will have an ERA of 0.00.
And truthfully, I just feel more optimistic every minute I think about Russ Adams’ young bat.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
Me too. At least he’s barely under 30. Would have totally ruined the entire article if he had been over 30.
So seriously you don’t expect Sweeney to continue hitting like that? I wonder why? He has a past history? OK
So if the pitching staff was lights out during ST would it mean anything other than to make you feel better?
trs86
4/1/2010-10:53pm at 10:53 pm (UTC -4)
Think Parnell last year. He looked pretty good huh? That made us feel better but meant nothing. All we are saying is relax and wait for the season to start. You will have plenty of time to complain about the pitching staff when the games count.
Also, what I find unusual is that you were one of the main guys preaching we did not need guys like Marquis, Garland, Pineiro, etc. You also mentioned how the bullpen was improved and how Lackey was too expensive. Basically Omar had made some good decisions and the players we have all have potential to be just as good as those other guys. Now after a bad spring training you decide that Omar screwed up?
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:55pm at 10:55 pm (UTC -4)
Why don’t we just agree to disagree, OK?
I think I reacted to the debate the last couple of days with a very reasoned, reasonable, piece on why the pitching might be a concern.
You don’t agree. I get it. But again, citing ONE player as you do does not in any way invalidate my arguing that, with the exception of KRod and Feliciano and guys who suck like Figgy/Dessens/Misch, EVERY Met pitcher has been awful.
This is not a common situation. And again, since you seem to have missed it, the stats in the spring DO COUNT for Parnell, Igarashi, Nieve, Green, Calero and Niese—I mean come on! Spring stats are HOW TEAMS DECIDE on who gets certain spots.
Yes, the top four starters’ were guaranteed spots, but Niese and the rest of the pen weren’t.
Kingman 26
4/1/2010-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
If NONE of the five main guys jockeying for spots and the 3-7 positions in the pen can have even moderate success in March pitching the 5th–9th, against mostly minor leaguers, can we expect success in the real games?
trs86
4/1/2010-11:01pm at 11:01 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, NO ONE is saying they have pitched great or that they WILL pitch great. Do you really think that anyone is saying the pitching is NOT a concern? All we are saying is that in a few days these stats will mean nothing and they will have the chance to go out and perform in games that matter.
Either ST stats count or ST stats do not count. They either matter or they don’t matter. So are we lead to believe that because Iggy and Figgy are competing for jobs that because Figgy is lights out we should not be concerned about him but should be about Iggy? Same thing for guys like Misch and Dessens? It seems as though we want it both ways. Dismissing spring training stats for those that have done well by saying “They have always sucked, it’s ST”. Hinging on spring training stats for those who have stunk saying “They are trying to earn a spot and they stink, spring training is not spring training for them.”
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:39pm at 10:39 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, but the season starts on Monday and I for one still have no clue what our bullpen will be. ST is ST, but the BP situation is mind boggling.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:42pm at 10:42 pm (UTC -4)
I think for the most part we know all but 2 positions
Krod, Pedro, Calero, Iggy, Taka, ?, ?
Not that big of a deal. Not like that position can’t change the next week.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:49pm at 10:49 pm (UTC -4)
Agree with your take but it’s alarming the disarray with committing names to the 2 question marks by our Manager just for the sake of having a plan. Because your right, it can be changed in a week. But then again, more instability. Combine that with the idea that Valdes who just showed up may be in the bullpen is pretty wild. I think it’s this general state of unsettledness that’s amped up many fans. I myself just can’t wait to get this thing started to finally get some answers.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:54pm at 10:54 pm (UTC -4)
Thing is there are a lot of teams that has their last 2 positions in constant flux. The Phillies are still looking for BP pitchers and now SP.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:59pm at 10:59 pm (UTC -4)
Just since other teams are in disarray doesn’t mean I have to accept that my team is in disarray. I’ll bank on the season being a marathon and that we will hold our ground and then build to success…LGM
trs86
4/1/2010-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
Just saying that even last year and every year I can remember the BP had guys that were being decided on the last week.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-10:46pm at 10:46 pm (UTC -4)
Can we agree that the Mets pitching staff pitched terrible this Spring?
If so can we agree that all this does is make people concerned if they will pitch better than that during the season?
If we agree on that then can we agree that Monday we will start to answer those questions?
Good because I sure as heck can’t wait to see if Minaya was right to stick with these guys one more season.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
Yes
Yes
Yes
metsfan4decades
4/2/2010-7:16am at 7:16 am (UTC -4)
Agree with all this.
LGM!
dirtysanchez
4/1/2010-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
ITS SPRING TRAINING!!! In a week it will be like an etch-a-sketch…THOSE STATS NEVER HAPPENED. Alot of good players have horrible spring numbers, doesnt mean they will continue with those stats. Next week cannot come fast enough…
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
+1
trs86
4/1/2010-10:55pm at 10:55 pm (UTC -4)
I like to quote the good Manuel “You know something? I’ve seen guys in spring training over and over and I can sit here naming guys who had terrible springs,†said Manuel. “And when the season started they were fine. Or even if they got off to a slow start they ended up having a pretty good year. That’s kind of the way we’ve got to let Ibanez play out.—
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely 100% true.
What else is true is that many members of the fanbase of this team believe that the pitching staff is a weakness as a whole and if those people were looking for just a shred of positivity in the spring training performance of any one of the starters on which to build some fragile confidence, they didn’t get it.
So for those people, I would hope that the other people could forgive them their doubt, and cut them a little slack if they happen to express that doubt, instead of making them feel worse by grilling them about their doubt or what their sinister purpose in expressing that doubt might be.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
Grave change many to all members of the fanbase believe that pitching is a weakness.
We all think that the season will depend on MOP and the pen or improvements made in those areas by Omar or call ups. We we all continue to disagree is that because these guys pitched poorly in ST they are likely to pitch poorly in the regular season. We have no way of knowing.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:16pm at 11:16 pm (UTC -4)
Of course we have no way of knowing. So does that mean we can’t express any opinion about how it might? Cuz that sort of defeats the whole purpose of this place and it’s having 16 sometimes diverse authors.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:20pm at 11:20 pm (UTC -4)
What is the debate that King shouldn’t have posted his opinion or that some disagree with his opinion?
King should post whatever he wants for the record.
I just don’t agree that it serves any purpose to worry about ST when the regular season is upon us.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:32pm at 11:32 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. If Kingman wants to post the entire script for Monty Python’s “Life Of Brian” I have no problem with him doing it. I just reserve the right to ask him what message he is trying to get across.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:22pm at 11:22 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, of course we can. Not saying he can’t be pessimistic about the pitching. Kingman is welcome to be pessimistic about our chances.
My point remains, there is no debate about if the Mets pitching this ST has been bad. We all know how bad they have been.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:08pm at 11:08 pm (UTC -4)
Well when you put it like that.
I think SPEAKING FOR MYSELF I share King’s doubts. The Mets as you said didn’t provide a shred of positivity in their spring training performances.
I just don’t understand the point in waiting for 3 days before the home opener to start to get nervous? I mean if Pelfrey pitches a good start does all this talk about Spring training go away?
Do we then say phew I guess it must of been ST after all?
I think not.
We will ride the roller coaster of the regular season. 2 bad starts all hell breaks loose. 2 good starts wow great job.
Spring Training was terrible agreed. Now that we agree what do we do next?
trs86
4/1/2010-11:13pm at 11:13 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. If Maine had not gotten sick and had continued to pitch well through 5 would we have been more comfortable with the rotation? If Iggy had came in and not given up a run would the pen have been more solid?
At this point it’s over. These are the guys we have and pitching will be a weakness, how much? No one knows.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:23pm at 11:23 pm (UTC -4)
I wouldn’t say that there is “a point to waiting until 3 days before the season to get nervous.”
I would suggest, since I don’t know for a fact I can only suggest, that maybe the author’s confidence was fragile to begin with and was slowly eroded by lack of results and happened to give way recently. I’m not sure there is any “point” to that, I think it just happens sometimes, and in this case when it happened one of our fellow authors wrote a post about it.
I think asking what the point of the post is is a slippery slope and I hope we don’t continue doing that. I was somewhat shocked when I saw TRS ask that up the thread. Perhaps the point is as simple as it was an exercise in catharsis using an avenue kindly provided by the owners of the blog.
If our posts need to have more of a point than that, I can think of hundreds of them which could be eliminated, freeing up vast amounts of cyberspace for more important “points.”
trs86
4/1/2010-11:30pm at 11:30 pm (UTC -4)
Just a little banter Grave. I think we are all a little tired of the back and forth discussion over meaningless stats.
As for the point of the article, it was an honest question.
Was the point to show that the pitching staff had struggled?
Was the point to say that if they continued to struggle we will suck?
Was the point to say that because they have struggled they will continue to struggle?
Was the point to say you have given up on MOP?
Was the point to say that Omar screwed up?
Was the point purely for entertainment purposes?
Was the point to offer a counter to the article I posted earlier today and the comments that were made today?
Again, I am confused by the article’s purpose. I am not saying it is pointless.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:36pm at 11:36 pm (UTC -4)
As I said above I can only guess because I didn’t write it, but I think it’s possible the only point of this piece was catharsis.
I will say that most of the time when I write anything the point is a combination of “fill space” and “entertain.” Sometimes it’s “inform” others it’s “catharsis” or occasionally it’s “annoy.” Mostly it’s “stroke ego” though.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:40pm at 11:40 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree completely. Your post are almost always informative and entertaining. I have yet to see a post by you that would be considered a fill space. I also do not believe this post is a fill space either. I just don’t understand the point he is trying to make unless it’s just we are in trouble because our rotation has stunk in ST?
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:42pm at 11:42 pm (UTC -4)
April Fools?
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:32pm at 11:32 pm (UTC -4)
I hear you and I think there are 2 sides to this.
1. The questioning of why an author posts an opinion piece.
To that all I can do is restate what I have already said I think an author can write whatever they feel. I know I do
2. Do I agree or disagree with said post.
To that all I can say is I thought the purpose of an opinion is to open up debate pro and con on said opinion.
I don’t suggest King should of not posted his opinion. I am saying I don’t understand why is he so concerned with the core of his post that the Mets had a terrible ST.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:35pm at 11:35 pm (UTC -4)
I think there is a difference in me saying “This post is pointless you should have never posted it” and asking what the point is. I truly want to know what his intended purpose of the article is. If it’s just to state that he’s concerned? That’s fine too. Who isn’t?
Hazmet
4/1/2010-10:55pm at 10:55 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s a question some may have heard on MF earlier this week.
Opening day, Santana pitches 7 great innings, Mets up 3-2. He’s gassed. Who’s getting the ball in the eighth to get to K-Rod in the ninth?
I still can’t answer that question. And it’s a question I don’t think that can be answered for awhile into the season. It’s almost like April will be extended ST for the bullpen.
trs86
4/1/2010-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
Why do we need a THE setup guy? Shouldn’t it depend on who is coming up?
Hazmet
4/1/2010-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
I like assigned roles in the bullpen. Setup guys are a given in today’s game. Just as “hold” guys are. Even if they only have the designation for segments of the season. So who is the setup guy to start the season?
trs86
4/1/2010-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
So lets say Johan comes out with 6 1/3 innings pitched and leaves with a guy on 1st and 2nd. Need our best RP other than our closer to pitch but he can’t. He’s the setup guy.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t even tell who our best right handed reliever is. Unfortunately, he’ll probably bring Green in for that situation. How scary is that.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:11pm at 11:11 pm (UTC -4)
I was referring to relief pitcher but anyway point is that I don’t think we have the luxury to take our best 2 relief pitchers and tell them they will ONLY pitch in the 8th and 9th.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:07pm at 11:07 pm (UTC -4)
We’ll know on Sunday afternoon when rosters are finalized. My wild guess is when the season starts Pedro Feliciano will be that guy, especially if both Takahashi and Valdes make the team. But as others have noted in this thread already, the role is almost certain to change hands.
My wild guess at order of succession is this:
Feliciano
Igarashi
Calero
Escobar
unless Mejia makes the team…
trs86
4/1/2010-11:09pm at 11:09 pm (UTC -4)
It really depends on one guy. Valdes. If he does not make the team then I think setup guy is Calero. Thing is if he is healthy then he clearly is the best guy for the role. Good numbers last season and very even splits. If Valdes does make the team why not have Feliciano and Calero share those roles?
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:16pm at 11:16 pm (UTC -4)
Do you see Parnell ever getting it together this season?
trs86
4/1/2010-11:17pm at 11:17 pm (UTC -4)
No.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
In an ideal world it shouldn’t matter. There shouldn’t be “an 8th inning guy” or “a 7th inning guy” or even “a left handed guy who only pitches to left handed batters.”
But reality suggests these things do exist. Interview after interview with bullpen pitchers reveals their craving for roles. “I want to know what my role is” or “I didn’t expect Manager X to call on me then” are quotes I’ve read far too often.
I would LOVE IT if baseball got away from that culture. But do I think the Mets are the organization to start a trend away from it, and do I trust Jerry Manuel and Dan Warthen to lead that charge? No and no.
Hazmet
4/1/2010-11:28pm at 11:28 pm (UTC -4)
Funny thing to me is I believe with the mix of guys working things out in the BP, I think by mid season it will be a strength of the team. With guys like Calero, Acosta, Parnell working things out and if they insist on Mejia being in the pen and he thrives, they can be dominant, just not out of the gate.
Good night, great discussions all the way around.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:31pm at 11:31 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. I think it (the bullpen) will be better in the middle of the season, and hopefully at the end too, than it will be in the beginning, due to some shuffling of personnel and the resulting role changes, as well as to some guys simply having some success and building confidence on that success, like I had hoped some of the starting pitchers might this spring.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Soon, real soon. Soon we will get answers to so many questions.
Did Minaya do the right thing by not addressing the starting rotation?
Did Minaya do the right thing by sticking with Murphy at 1st?
Did Minaya do the right thing by signing Igarashi and Takahashi?
Did Minaya do the right thing by signing Barajas?
Did Minaya do the right thing by bringing Tatis back?
Soon, real soon.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:03pm at 11:03 pm (UTC -4)
Most likely he will finish about .500.
trs86
4/1/2010-11:17pm at 11:17 pm (UTC -4)
“That’s the way it is”
Goodnight.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:39pm at 11:39 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, Cronkite. Those were the days.
When I just googled “Walter Cronkite quotes” the first thing that comes up is:
“America’s health care system is neither healthy, caring, nor a system.”
Discuss!
trs86
4/1/2010-11:42pm at 11:42 pm (UTC -4)
First I have to ask if Kingman is still here. If so then this debate would get MUCH more personal that it is right now. LOL.
I really gotta go.
Nice talking guys and I really hope that tomorrow we don’t even discuss optimism, pessimism or realism. I think WE have beaten that one to an unrecognizable form.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:44pm at 11:44 pm (UTC -4)
Didn’t you cast the 1st stone?
trs86
4/2/2010-7:23am at 7:23 am (UTC -4)
Nope that was done when a group of posters SUDDENLY became concerned about our pitching staff based on ST starts and performances. Why are you suddenly concerned now? Pitching coming into ST was a weakness and coming out it’s most likely a weakness. Spring training stats have done nothing to change that. If they all came in and had ERA’s of 0.004 what would that mean? That suddenly the pitching staff was no longer a concern?
stickguy
4/1/2010-11:46pm at 11:46 pm (UTC -4)
just wait until they actually make roster announcements. That should fire up the old post count!
stickguy
4/1/2010-11:44pm at 11:44 pm (UTC -4)
Holy mother of blessed acceleration, this debate is still going on?
I think this guy over at FWICG summed up my current feelings nicely: “joekurioo April 1, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Screw all the stupid stuff. at this point i dont care about anything .. LETS GO METS”
IOW, I really, really can’t wait until the season starts so we can stop discussing (a polite word for it) the sky is falling what ifs, and start actually evaluating real performances.
Sure the pitching hasn’t been great in ST. But what they hell can you do about it now other than roll them out and see what happens?
I’m not Biff with the magazine. I don’t know what the hell is going to happen, but I sure am anxious to find out.
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:47pm at 11:47 pm (UTC -4)
Well I missed it the first time (basement flood, better now thanks) so the guys were kind enough to rehash it with my involvement this time.
In other news, it appears that ESPN New York should be arriving any moment. Adam Rubin tweeted about 3 hours ago that “the blog launches in hours.” I better find some content over there in the morning or I’ll be quite ornery.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:50pm at 11:50 pm (UTC -4)
Remember what I said when you asked what did you miss?
Optimism and realism 2 words I am tired of hearing.
Its funny TRS said he didn’t care to hear it when he made 2 posts that dealt with them. Then MC’s blog and MMO had posts today also I am so done with those 2 words and labeling fans.
trs86
4/2/2010-7:21am at 7:21 am (UTC -4)
I can be tired of hearing it all I want. It’s still the only thing people are talking about, thus on TRDM we are going to talk about it.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:52pm at 11:52 pm (UTC -4)
9 minutes to midnight.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/
GravediggerHebner
4/1/2010-11:55pm at 11:55 pm (UTC -4)
Rubin is hosting a chat at 9:30am Friday morning, so hopefully they’ll have the bugs ironed out by then.
Mr North Jersey
4/1/2010-11:57pm at 11:57 pm (UTC -4)
Oh It will not launch at midnight then?
GravediggerHebner
4/2/2010-12:00am at 12:00 am (UTC -4)
No, sorry didn’t mean to imply that. It should be launching any second. I am just guessing that everything won’t run smoothly immediately, but I could be wrong and even if I’m right they have 9 1/2 hours to figure it out.
Mr North Jersey
4/2/2010-12:01am at 12:01 am (UTC -4)
Ian O Conner is with them also?
Mr North Jersey
4/2/2010-12:00am at 12:00 am (UTC -4)
They are online
Mr North Jersey
4/2/2010-12:02am at 12:02 am (UTC -4)
espnnewyork mets preview
http://beta.espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5036790
Mr North Jersey
4/2/2010-12:07am at 12:07 am (UTC -4)
Rubin has an article that has what the odds are on which manager replace Manuel.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rubin_adam&id=5043207
Mr North Jersey
4/2/2010-12:09am at 12:09 am (UTC -4)
Rubin predicts the Mets go 78-84.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/47/2010-prediction-meet-the-mash
gategem
4/2/2010-3:30am at 3:30 am (UTC -4)
Kong I basically share your sentiments and as a result we have been banished from POPPs.
Basically I’m a numbers guy and generally pay little heed to the “I believe“, “I think†and “In My Opinion†crowd that tend to be pedantic and treat their opinions as facts (as we constantly see at other blogs). However, I’m going to join the “I believe†crowd and say that there is legitimate hope for Pelfrey and Niese. Pelfrey has been working on a splitter and has made significant progress in mastering the pitch. Once he is able to completely master the splitter while retaining the quality of his other pitches we may see a legitimate number 2 starter. Niese has been working on a cut fastball and I have read that he too has made significant progress. He is working on having an impressive arsenal at his disposal. Based upon what I have read we may not have to wait too long to see significant positive results for these two. The major fly in the ointment is the below average Manager and Pitching Coach that don’t seem capable of getting the most out of their players.
gategem
4/2/2010-3:39am at 3:39 am (UTC -4)
The best story of the day from the WSJ:
“When Paul Fischer checked his bank account Friday night, he had a happy surprise. His balance had exploded to $88,888,888,888.88. A very lucky number indeed, and close to $89 billion.
Of course, the balance was a technical error by SunTrust Bank (NYSE: STI – News), which quickly fixed the problem. It also may have occurred in other accounts.
“You say, ‘Eighty-eight billion, what can I do with that?’” said Mr. Fischer, who owns a jewelry concessionaire for Florida theme parks. “Maybe a handful of us could have brought down SunTrust Bank.”
Mr. Fischer had other ideas as well. Before the problem was fixed, he asked a SunTrust rep if he could move the money to an interest-bearing account until it was reclaimed and donate the interest to charity. Total interest: more than $7.3 million.
The bank said no.
The money was stripped out of his account by Saturday morning.
“It’s all gone. I’m poor again,” he said. “I was a billionaire for five hours.”
This kind of bank error happens frequently. But Mr. Fischer raises an interesting question: What if, for five hours, you truly did have $89 billion?
What would you do with the money? The ground rules are that you would have to give the money back — and whatever you bought or invested with it — after five hours.”
prismo
4/2/2010-4:25am at 4:25 am (UTC -4)
You don’t want to know.
rustyjr
4/2/2010-4:36am at 4:36 am (UTC -4)
jewlery concessionaire at a theme park? what does he sell ? gold plated goffy pendants?
rustyjr
4/2/2010-4:40am at 4:40 am (UTC -4)
Kong i hope this was a april fools post because this is a 180 degree uturn for you . come on man you helped me focus on the positives and yesterday maine did look good until he lost his lunch,. at times all the starters have looked good and all have looked down right awful – should omar have obtained some pitching insurance – yes but what is gone is gone – this team still can win and although im not thrilled with the team we are going into battle with ( theyre bringing up some players based on politics rather than howe they played) i will support them 100% like i have always done. don’t waver my friend – you are the only one with the cdl license that can drive the semi that will pull the float
love ya
rustyjr
steveo
4/2/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
Only time will tell.The good thing is in 3 days real baseball is back for us suffing met fans. Hopefully there will be somewhat less suffering. I’m still a half empty believer but at this point I’ve convinced myself that if I hope for success I will only be let down, so by thinking negative things can only get better.
Mr North Jersey
4/2/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Hey Kingman you made MC’s blog. You and Matt seem to see eye to eye. Congrats