Even Cy Young award winners occasionally make messes
It’s true, everyone poops. Tonight Mets ace Johan Santana did. At least he made his mess all over Citizens Bank Park. Allow the box score to explain it all for you, I’ve already lived it.
May 02
Post Game: Ace Drops A Deuce
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60 comments
metsfan4decades
5/2/2010-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t blame you…..just look at the box score. Enough said.
We’re not going to win them all. But these weren’t just two losses. These were our two best pitchers who had nothing and after the 4th inning in both games, basically neither did our offense.
Just sigh…..
Let’s see what Maine can do tomorrow to right the ship.
trs86
5/2/2010-11:05pm at 11:05 pm (UTC -4)
Man, you just ran through a big pile of dog shit
It happens
What, shit?
Sometimes
fongy2
5/2/2010-11:22pm at 11:22 pm (UTC -4)
Just when I thought I was out….
They pull me back in.
—–Or——-
Just when I start to believe….
Smacked back into reality!
Yeah, everyone has bad games BUT
After being spotted a 3-0 then 5-2
Lead a Hundred million dollar Pitcher
needs to throw strikes, get outs
and at least get you to the 7th or 8th
with the lead.
Further, after Johan got bombed it seemed no one had any interest in making the 47 y/o soft -tosser work.
To me, this weekend said everything anyone needs to know about these two
teams, what has been, what is AND what will be.
njstuckintx
5/3/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, the ups and the downs… but, 2 games a season does not make. until, that is, there are 2 games left in the season and you’re 2 games out. I don’t expect them to win every series, but this game was just one big groing kick. Ace on the mound vs. Methusela. Spotted leads of 3-0 and 5-2… sigh…
asod75
5/2/2010-11:26pm at 11:26 pm (UTC -4)
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Fongy on this one. They reeled us back in, only to punch us repeatedly in the gut again. I was mad enough about Johan’s performance, but I was actually more mad about the way this team just mailed it in afterward. With five innings remaining, they managed just one walk against the great Jamie Moyer, Chad Durbin and Danys Baez. Now, I didn’t expect to win the game after Johan’s giant egg, but it would have been nice to see the guys battling and stringing some hits together. And could somebody wake Jose Reyes up? The missing spring training excuse is starting to wear thin. He’s been here almost a month now. And please, can anybody tell Omar and Jerry that GMJ and Cat are washed up? Put them together and you don’t come close to a .300 hitter. Free Pridie and Chris Carter, por favor.
metsfan4decades
5/2/2010-11:33pm at 11:33 pm (UTC -4)
Watching these past two days, I think the offense laying down and dying after the starters implode in the 4th inning actually bothers me more than the two poor outings by Pelf and Johan.
Not going to cut GMJ w/o a backup CF. And from what I’m reading tonight Beltran is close to starting his running. So to me, question is, do you suffer through GMJ for about 6 more weeks or bring up someone like Pridie and see what he can do?
fongy2
5/2/2010-11:40pm at 11:40 pm (UTC -4)
I know TRS would make
light of it BUT…..
Lack of grinders!
Say what you will about the phils BUT I
for one seeing them daily for a few yrs now,THIS team makes you work almost every inning of every game…
No matter whos pitching
for OR against AND no matter what the score
is. THIS MET team AND that of the past couple seasons just doesn’t have many, if
any guys who look like they approach the game that way.
fongy2
5/2/2010-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you!
When I saw tonights line-up,
I said to my Wife “shades of
Willie”…Why?!..Oh why against
the soft -tosser is Ike NOT in
the lineup?…AND why is GMjuicer still even a Met???
Its not like we played until midnight yesterday.
The guys had a day and a half off for God’s sake!
If theres a Lefty you might wanna see Ike against,its Moyer
Makes no sense to me……
stickguy
5/2/2010-11:45pm at 11:45 pm (UTC -4)
repeat after me: Jidiot.
metsfan4decades
5/2/2010-11:28pm at 11:28 pm (UTC -4)
SNY Post game:
Jerry: no health issues for Johan.
Johan:
I don’t know. Just a rough night. My fastball just moving all over the place, I wasn’t able to command it.
Got really, really bad that 4th inning.
Just a bad day. I wasn’t able to protect that lead I was given.
They basically just kept asking him why? He said, just one of those days – bad. I felt good, I felt fine.
So….no pain, so they say. No real reason for the poor outing. I can’t decide if that worries me more or not…..
stickguy
5/2/2010-11:43pm at 11:43 pm (UTC -4)
glad I was otherwise occupied and unable to watch the game. But I was pretty sure that when I saw my son texting me at about 9:30 that it wasn’t good news.
hard to know what to say. I do agree with MF that if the offense either packed it in (or maybe worse, pressed and panicked) when they got behind, and got shut down, that is much worse than just having a bad pitching performance.
and I have no idea what to expect now. A death spiral? Sure. Destroying the reds for 3 games? Why not.
but maybe there were a couple of positives:
1) The pen did the job again.
2) Maybe, just maybe, GM jr played his way off the team. Sure as hell Cat has. Pridie and Carter? can’t possibly not be an improvement.
asod75
5/2/2010-11:44pm at 11:44 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sure Pridie and Carter can combine to hit over .300, which GMJ and Cat haven’t even been able to do. Look at the spark Ike gave the team, why not go to the well again with guys who are hungry to succeed and not just hanging on?
njstuckintx
5/3/2010-8:49am at 8:49 am (UTC -4)
They aren’t hitting over .200
stickguy
5/3/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
that was combined.
asod75
5/2/2010-11:43pm at 11:43 pm (UTC -4)
Well, even when Johan was in his Cy Young winning days, he was much better in the second half of the season than the first. So there’s that positive nugget….
stickguy
5/2/2010-11:46pm at 11:46 pm (UTC -4)
Hmm, wonder if this helps put the target back on Jerry’s back?
pretty much does make tomorrow close to a much win (for sanity’s sake), and they really have to win the next couple of series and stay close here.
njstuckintx
5/3/2010-8:51am at 8:51 am (UTC -4)
There’s no target on jerry’s back other than that ones that we have for him. Until he’s 7 games back, there won’t be a watch on him for a while, unfortunately.
His lineup and game time decisions are “keeping it real”… real confusing.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-1:05am at 1:05 am (UTC -4)
We are all as Mets fans disappointed that is the most obvious statement of the night. Let’s vent scream why us and all that but at the same time with on eye on the bigger picture it was 1 game. 7-3 in the next 10 will fix that right up.
I am more concerned with our Ace. There are certain games that are used to send a message tonight could have been one but it was sent in the wrong direction. The Phillies said we may be better than 2009 but we are still a long way from overtaking them or showing them that the teams are a team to be reckoned with in 2010.
As much as it pains me to say it our Ace chose one hell of a time to drop a turd and I hope he remembers this for a long time so the next time if it ever happens again in 2010 that we have a chance to send the Phillies a message he shows how much of a man he is and redeems himself.
I don’t even wanna go into the offense that I guess once Santana left they had no more fight left in them I kept hoping to see them fight back but sadly it never materialized.
Spare me how Moyer is old after Phils broke game open we went down in order 1.2.3.4.5.6 b4 he gave way to the pen.
Mets had a shot to show something by beating the big Kids on the block and showed we are just not ready yet. They get their next shot at showing something May 21st thru the 27th. Yankees Phillies at home. I am looking forward to seeing what they do then. Anything b4 that is just the preliminaries b4 the main event.
Go Mets show us how strong a jaw you have after getting punched in the mouth and losing by decision 2 to 1.
ceetar
5/3/2010-9:03am at 9:03 am (UTC -4)
Ultimately it’s the players fault, but good job by Manuel and HoJo to reinforce the idea to take pitches, work counts, and not go out and finish the top of the 5th in 12 seconds. really.
And Warthen apparently is only the pitching coach for the other 4 guys? Santana’s still a pitcher, when he walks Castro or Ruiz just freaking go out there and make sure he’s gonna get Moyer out.
ceetar
5/3/2010-9:13am at 9:13 am (UTC -4)
here, the essential fire manuel:
He initially thought maybe Santana walked Carlos Ruiz on purpose to face Jamie Moyer with the bases loaded, ‘but it looked like he already lost it before that.’
The team’s hitters got a bit anxious against Moyer following the fourth inning.
njstuckintx
5/3/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
And being only 1/2 game out of first, he is not going anywhere. that’s prob. the most frustrating thing. Jidiot ain’t going now where.
ceetar
5/3/2010-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
I know..but doesn’t mean I can’t still call for it!
This would be the perfect time again. Despite a winning streak they bombed against the rival. Less/no backlash for firing him.
stickguy
5/3/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
now you are just dreaming to think they would do it after the recent run, 1/2 game out. Even though it might be the last time they are in 1st in the division this year, it could have been just enough to cement in Jidiot for the year.
your scenerio would imply that they had the finger ont he trigger, and were just wairing for the perfect shot to avoid PR hit.
Too bad it seems backwards. The team seems to have no problem with Jerry, and the majority of the fans would probably rejoice no matter when they did the deed!
ceetar
5/3/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Doubt that’s true. The media would lash out if they’d done it late last week, and hence most of the more casual fans and ones that still get all their info from newspapers would be annoyed. Maybe not though.
but hey, Willie’s firing was obviously a finger on the trigger type thing and fired after a win and 3/4 or whatever it was. Of course, they got backlash for that too, but more for doing it one game into a roadtrip and being done at a time when most of the beat writers had already gone to bed and missed it.
stickguy
5/3/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
they forgot the cardinal rule. Don’t piss off the writers.
stickguy
5/3/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Still not sure what the team showed tis weekend. Other than they don’t have enough SP to keep the Phils down for 3 straight at the bandbox?
would have been different if Maine and Ollie got shelled. That you could expect. It would be concerning, but just reinforcing the concern you already had about the back end of the rotation.
But to see both your ace and #2 guy not only get smacked around (it does happen), but to seemingly lose it mentally (should never happen), well that it scarier.
I don’t know what to make out of the apparent offensive give up last night. Maybe it was th epitching, becasue in that place, how can you think a 5-6 run lead, with many innings to go, against that pen, is insurmountable?
I guess that the only question really answered this series is that yes, Neise has the goods to be a big time pitcher. Other than that? Mets sitll a flawed contender, that will always make you have a fear in the back of your mind that they will fold under pressure.
ceetar
5/3/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
The offense has been aggressive, too aggressive, at times, and too rushed at times. I ignore it/don’t notice it when they’re hitting the ball and winning and scoring runs, but when they’re not you wonder about their approach and the leadership behind them.
Utlimately it’s the players, but shouldn’t the coaches and manager reinforce the idea to take it slow and make sure you at least chase Moyer in the 5th. don’t press, plenty of time, etc? Did Reyes see more than 4 pitches last night?
I just wonder what would’ve happened if they’d taken it slower and gotten a couple of guys on against Moyer. He could’ve easily imploded and the Mets could’ve at laest had a shootout type chance.
stickguy
5/3/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
but, how many years have you been saying the same thing about the approach? Say, the entire Jerry/Hojo tenure? Not sure if it went back to Willie’s day or not.
ceetar
5/3/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
I’ve always questioned it, skeptically, but I also will never know for sure. It certainly could be nothing. I know it’s more complicated than just “well, take pitches” becuse sometimes you identify the best shot is the first pitch. Just like it’s not really that easy to get a real hit off a wild throwing infielder. they just never seem to have a real good plan of attack in my eyes. Castillo can go up their and see 9 pitches and bloop a hit, and then Reyes swings at the first pitch and pops out.
Rick Down seemed okay, although they slumped at one point. So many different players so it’s hard to compare anyway.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/3/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. I think there’s a real thin line between stupid aggressive and smart aggressive. When you look at all great hitters like Mauer, Jeter, Pujols, etc, they have good plans and are very smart at the plate. Need to be aggressive is one thing, but swinging at any FB ball is another.
I’m not sure if the Mets approach at the plate differentiates it.
It’s especially frustrating to see not-so great pitchers going 7-8 innings because they have 10 pitch innings.
stickguy
5/3/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
of course, go out and sweep cincinatti, and people might forget about this weekend pretty quick!
Although I did notice that the comments (at least at FWICG) changed in tone. Obviously, after Friday everyone was high as a kite (with a few it’s early, stay calm types). After Saturday, more like “OK, 1 bad inning, shake it off, we got Sunday’s matchup”.
After last night, the sky has pretty much fallen again, season over, just a tease, etc.
Ah, the Bi-polar Met fan. Gotta love it!
trs86
5/3/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Why for the most part I am staying to myself starting during the game last night. I understood the need to vent but I just did not agree at all with what they were saying. I will most likely stay away today. No one needs to hear my proclamation of the Mets being exactly where I expected them to be. I would expect them to lose 2/3 to the Phillies in Philly and I expect them to be right there with them and have a chance to win the division or the WC and that’s where we are. I can’t grasp the need to panic or say Johan Sucks and needs to be taken out back and slaughtered. If some fans feel they will feel better to say that about a border line HOF then so be it.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/3/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
After the 4th inning, just like everyone else I was saying “What the f— just happened?”
It sucked to see our ace get knocked around like that especially when your offense was putting up good numbers. Johan was at like 40-45 pitches after 2 outs in the 4th inning and I was really thinking that he can go complete game… but then boom!… “What the f— just happened?”
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-10:12am at 10:12 am (UTC -4)
Sucked is def putting it lightly but yes it sure did suck.
stickguy
5/3/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
some interesting discussion back at the old place (by the posters of course, not the authors).
someone made a strong case that, now that his velocity is down (along with K rate), and walks are up, Santana has started his decline into “crafty LH #2 starter” territory. Even though fans still think he is a dominant ace, he really isn’t anymore.
Basically, he has become TOm Glavine, back when Glavine was good, and could still throw 90. Actually, Glavine was better at age 31 than Santana is right now.
Same basic “stuff” (90 mph FB and a change), but glavine probably threw a few more breaking balls. But, Glav knew he was not a power pitcher and pitched accordingly. But that is probably a transition that Santana needs to make, and who knows if Mr. “I’m a man” ever will?
trs86
5/3/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
It really depends on how you define Ace. If you feel that Ace is a top 5 pitcher, top 10 pitcher, #1?
To me Santana is a #1 pitcher but is not as dominant as other pitchers in the league and has not been. He has been getting by on intelligence and bulldog attitude since he got here in my opinion. So do we have one of the best pitchers in the game? Yes in my opinion. Do we have one of the most dominant pitchers in the game? No.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
So now we r playing the what is an Ace game?
Oh boy this wont be fun.
stickguy
5/3/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I wasn’t planning to play that game.
my point is, Santana appears to be entering the phase (and at 31, it is normal) where he certainly ain’t what he used to be.
The question though becomes, what do you do about it?
Fans tend to remember the dominant guy, and still think he is there, and get shocked when he isn’t superman anymore.
Players though sometimes do the same thing. They lose that little bit, and won’t except it. SO they get stubborn, and try to be the same guy, even if they can’t anymore (or at least, can only do it rarely).
Maybe Santana has to face reality, and change his style. Add a cutter (if he doesn’t have one already). More curves and sliders? Who knows.
Pedro made the transition, and stayed dominant, just in a different way.
but just IMO, if Johan sits with a 89-90 FB but still thinks he is a power K guy, he will crash and burn.
Andy Petite is not Johan circa 2006, but he is still a productive pitcher.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Good because if we start suggesting Santana is not an Ace then my reply will be when did he stop being an Ace? Because he was clearly an Ace the day the Mets traded for him.
trs86
5/3/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
I think injuries since then have taken their toll. He is still very good and very intelligent. However, that decreasing velocity can’t be ignored.
trs86
5/3/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
Yup it will be up to Santana to reinvent himself. No I do not view him as a dominant pitcher anymore. If you want to call that an ace I am fine with that. If so Santana is no longer an Ace. That does not devastate me in the slightest. You don’t have to have an ACE to win.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
???
So Santana needs to reinvent himself?
He is no longer dominant?
Can I ask for clarification on dominant?
Because for me dominant is a pitcher that can go out and shut another team down every 5 days. If Santana is no longer capable of doing that then we have problems because that is what I expect from him every 5 days.
To go out and shut teams down.
trs86
5/3/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Well then in my opinion you are going to have problems.
He’s gonna be the type that has an ERA between 3.00 and 3.50 that averages around 7 innings per start giving up a lot of hits, not many walks, susceptible to the HR at times and a K/9 around 7-8. He’s gonna be good way more than bad and produce a quality start 80% of the time. He will get around 200-220 innings. Everything I expect a #1 to do. However, he’s not going to be as dominant as some of the other pitchers in the league. If that makes you sad, so be it. If you refuse to believe it so be it. Unless his arm returns to form he’s gonna have to change some things up.
Still a great pitcher and still proud to have him on the Mets.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
So I am still waiting on what a dominant pitcher is but whatever.
I guess we can’t count On Santana in a big game going out and pitching a shutout then.
We are def in trouble then.
I expect my Ace to match another teams Ace every time out and now I am being told that is not the case.
So the 7 inning 1-run games are a thing of the past?
Wow that sucks I am def sad. Santana no longer is a big game pitcher?
Welcome back Tom Glavine?
No I refuse to accept that.
trs86
5/3/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Nope those games are not a part of the past at all. You just can’t expect them every night. Never said he was not a big game pitcher either.
This is the debate you did not want to get into so why are we? To do this debate you have to determine what an ace is and you did not want to do that.
A dominant pitcher (or Ace)in my opinion is one of the top 5 pitchers in the league at that time. Johan is currently not one of those and has not been since 2008. He will show flashes of that but until he changes some things or his injuries heel we will not see that every time out.
Now what I don’t get in your argument is how all ace’s are supposed to be the same. So if Halladay is the best pitcher in the game and he faces Sabathia then CC is supposed to match him? I don’t see how that is possible. So if Wright is one of the best 3B in the league he should match the best one on that night or does it only apply to pitching?
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
1. Never said I didn’t want to get into it I said it wasn’t going to be fun. Totally different.
2. It was not going to be fun because an Ace is a matter of opinion and being how every has 1 you will never agree on what an ace is.
Now for you an Ace has to do with stats one of the top 5 pitchers in the league at that time.
For me I already said is a pitcher that can go out and shut another team down or come close to that every 5 days. The most recent memory of that is the 2nd half Santana of 2008 that from July 22nd on in 14 starts only gave up 3 runs or more in a game twice.
That is an Ace that is the Santana I thought I still had but your suggesting that Santana is dead.
trs86
5/3/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
That Santana for an entire season is unrealistic and has not occurred in many years. Even Halladay has not produced that kind of season before.
Halladay last year had 9 outings giving up 4 runs or more.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Again he is bound to have off days and I hope this is all it was but in a big game I expect my Ace to go out and match zeroes.
If you feel otherwise I can’t and have no intention of changing that. I don’t feel that way and If I can’t count on my Ace to provide that in a big spot then yes I am sad.
trs86
5/3/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Sorry that you are so sad but yes I do think that you can not count on Santana to go out and match 0′s with an ace in every big game.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Well I am sure you will agree that that you and I both hope you are wrong and Santana comes back to be the Ace we expect him to be.
trs86
5/3/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
They ace YOU expect him to be. LOL.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Exactly
ceetar
5/3/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
Well, Johan had stretches of extreme dominance as recently as last year. It’s not like it’s totally foreign, but I’ve always thought when you have an injury and a layoff, even awesome pitchers don’t always get right back on the saddle and gallop..takes a bit.
Johan is a great pitcher because he knows what he’s doing. But you need to have parameters for that, how hitters are swinging, how your pitches are working. this is why he’s usually able to mix and match during agame, but it always applies to the whole season. It’s rediscovering how guys are swinging against you, and making them look silly by adjusting. (simple things, like they’ve scouted that Johan likes throw an inside changeup on 0-2, and they don’t swing. So Johan then adjusts and fires a slider on the outside corner and gets the K. that’s where the talent lies.)
I’m not getting into the waah, he’s only 85% as good argument. Maybe he just needs more than a handful of starts after a long layoff to really get into a groove.
Maybe last night just looks so much worse because Manuel should’ve pulled him after Moyer’s walk. or before it. There is such a thing as keeping your ace in too long. And there is such a thing as slowing down thegame and trying to break up the momentum. Maybe a layoff for a pitching change would’ve broken up the rally a little bit and Victorino would’ve simply flown out. Manuel basically left Santana out there to hang himself when it was obvious he had nothing.
It seems to me that Warthen and Manuel treated Santana as almost above them, instead of actual managing/leading. Almost like they don’t have the respect of Santana to actually go out there and do their jobs.
trs86
5/3/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Very true about the Moyer walk. If that was not Santana or another #1 then he’s pulled there.
I am not saying he won’t have dominant stretches at all. But it is clear that his velocity has not been where it was for a while now. It has declined every year since 2007. The argument about this year he is a 2 pitch pitcher, no more than he has been since 2007. He has thrown less sliders since 2006 as well. This year it’s at 12.8% which is actually slightly higher than it has been while with the Mets.
ceetar
5/3/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
btw, Santana’s velocity was 90-92. it was a control thing, not a washed up velocity thing. He’ll work hard with his grip and mechanics and come back and throw a 1-hitter against the Giants.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/3/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. If you looked at all the balls that he got hit hard, they were pretty much at the middle of the plate.
trs86
5/3/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
His contact percentage this year is at an all time high. He’s just not causing many swings and misses anymore. His all time high in contact percentage before this year was last year. Either he has changed his philosophy because of Citi OR there’s something up.
ceetar
5/3/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
well last year he had the injury. that skews the data.
He hasn’t had the control, and maybe needs to figure some thigns out. For instance, 3 straight changeups to start doesn’t seem like its a smart attack for a batter.
Mr North Jersey
5/3/2010-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
I am hoping that is what it is Ceetar. I really hope that it is just time and repetition.
trs86
5/3/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Very true, that is why I am saying he is going to have to adjust to what he now has. His FB has still averaged lower than last year but it is still early. He has been getting over the plate a little more this season.
AS for the injury skewing the data, of course it does. Now we have to wonder is it still skewing the data.