Watching Oliver Perez pitch is like being pecked to death by a duck. It is long and frustrating and frankly I’m done.
I’ve given him a chance to win me over with Spring Training and with the first month of the 2010 Season but I don’t see anything that gives me any faith that Perez is about to make that  ”turn” and become the 36 million dollar pitcher Omar paid for. As a matter of fact, I don’t see anything new at all and I cannot and I refuse to get excited or  ”believe” that he is  ”back”  because he happens to go into the sixth inning for one start.Â
Perez commits, in my book, the cardinal sin of any starter…he can’t get to the fifth inning. The FIFTH INNING!! Yesterdays line, if you don’t already know it, 3 1/3 innings, 7 walks, 4 runs(3 earned) and 98 pitches. You can also take into account that he might not of made it out of the 2nd inning if it wasn’t for two good defensive plays by Reyes and Pagan. Yea I know that the Mets almost pulled it out but let’s face it, if the Mets won today it would of been in spite of Perez not because of him.
You see, Perez does more than just give up a lead or fail to make it to the 5th, he also, with these dreadful outings, kills a bullpen, ruins momentum and makes a crowd head for the Shake Shack. Â
And we have to see this guy every 5th day? Can the Mets afford to have this guy around to do this? If they want to compete, they simply can’t.
Enough with the Jekyll and Hyde thing: Enough with the “he’s a lefty” thing. The Mets have to admit that they made a mistake and either, trade him, hide him, or put him in the Pen as a Mop Up Man. I when I mean Mop Up, I don’t mean when the Mets are losing 9- 0 in the 3rd inning and the Mets don’t want to burn another pitcher. I mean Mop Up as in “Mop up the mess the visiting pitchers did to the bathroom.”
I’m I being too rough here?
Let me ask you a question, What would you do with him? Do you trust him to pitch the rubber game of the Subway Series? How about the last game of the year with the Wild Card on the line?(Didn’t we see that before?) This man cannot pitch when the pressure is on, you know what, I don’t think he can pitch when the pressure is off.  Guess what? I don’t think he can pitch at all.
Bobby Ojeda thinks that Oliver “loses focus during a game”. What do you think?
All right, so let’s get serious and fix the problem. Look, every GM has made a mistake like Omar did with Perez. Cashman of the Yankees picked up Kei Igawa. The Angels signed Gary Matthews and Toronto has Vernon Wells.Â
Now the Angels traded away and ate the contract of Matthews( What team is he on again?). The Blue Jays are stuck with Wells simply because they cannot afford to release him or eat the contract and trade him. However, the Yankees have sent Igawa to Siberia, or some Minor team. The Mets now have to suck it up and make that tough decision. Yes, it might include eating some money, yes if might have to include getting some egg on the face of their GM. Perez might have to go to Buffalo, or Siberia or maybe just as far away from the Mets as possible.
He has to for the sake of this team and it’s future accomplishments.
It is time.
101 comments
rustyjr
5/10/2010-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
Totally agree except for the fact that the mets rarely showed any inclination in the past to eat bad contracts – so why would fred & co start now
steveo
5/10/2010-9:26am at 9:26 am (UTC -4)
Because their 130 mil payroll is on the line. Who cares about the 20 mil they owe ollie ,when this guy is pitching no one wants to go to the game and see them.I don’t even think the players want to be in the field when he’s pitching.
ceetar
5/10/2010-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
Perez is better than the backups the Mets have.
Perez has shown signs this year, you’re just only looking at the bad.
As recently as his last outing he went deeper in a game (and wouldn’t have went further had Manuel not reacted like you and pulled him, despite no real indictation that he was ‘losing focus’ or any of the typical Ollie things)
This isn’t to say he’s not a problem right now. That he can’t overcome adverse conditions such as the wind (something that as Lincecum tired, bothered him too)This is where the Manager and pitching coach come in, and fail. They’ve given up on him, because t hey’re incapable of guiding and teaching him. Something they did seems to have sapped some of his velocity. They don’t go out to try to calm him down. They are poor leaders. So if that’s the case, how do you fix it? Well, for starters, replace the coaches. He’s had success with Peterson who was able to regulate him and focus him to some regard. Given the pitch selection and craftiness Perez has at times displayed this year, I suspect Peterson would have him pitching masterfully.
rustyjr
5/10/2010-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
Valid points ceetar
ceetar
5/10/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
The one I want to emphasize is that he’s had at least two starts this year where he’s been border-line awesome in how he’s pitched.
There was no corner nibbled and 4-0 walks. No 0-2 counts followed by 4 easy balls. There WAS 4+ different pitches, at different speeds, all in different locations that completely baffled hitters.
It’s not an excuse, but yesterday you could tell it wasn’t lack of focus, it was actually lack of command. He was having trouble getting the ball to go where he wanted it to (which was a strike). He just, right now, lacks the talent, pitching wise, to adjust on the mound to adverse conditions. That doesn’t mean he should be taken out behind lake erie and shot though.
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
It is also possible that injuries and maybe even PEDs are responsible for the lack of velocity.
Let’s face it, Ollie was really good in 2007, good in 2008, a disaster area last year, and disaster area part II this year. He has shown zero signs of being anything like what he was in 2008 and prior.
It is also possible that coaches have given up on him because he might just be a pathologically lazy jackass who could care less whether or not he wins.
ceetar
5/10/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
You can’t use last year, because he was injured.
He had a horrible start to 2008, and bounced back.
Of course it’s possible that it’s PEDs, but Perez has not really pitched in a pre-steroid testing era, so it’s hard to believe that he both took something, and is no longer taking anything.
His last start had some more velocity. I wonder if it’s an arm strength and motion thing.
I’ve seen little sign that he’s a lazy jackass and doesn’t care. I’ve seen that from Manuel, but not from Ollie.
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Well, all signs all of last year most certainly pointed to serious apathy and being out of shape. No I was not there, but that is what every single report said, from the joker journalists to the serious ones.
Yeah, I hoped all of the off-season talk was real and that Ollie would at least revert to 2008.
But, and again this is just me, but I feel like a pretty decent size of the fan base feels the same, that I am sick of the same old, same old. One playoff appearance in 2006 to show for the last decade of fandom.
I don’t want to hear about Ollie’s good points in a 3 IP, 7 BB outing…I don’t want to hear about Beltran “being cleared” to swing a damn bat in mid-May…enough…I don’t want to hear it any more.
I want to hear more about young players who are healthy and WANT to play.
If Ollie won’t go to Buffalo, let him be 25th man, pinch run, and be long man and 6th starter. Or look at cutting him.
If Slappy really is breaking down, look seriously at eating his and Ollie’s dough. They did not spend excessively in the offseason. They could be making a great investment in the future by letting more kids play and doing it now.
ceetar
5/10/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
Castillo is not breaking down, and has never really been a broken down guy.
Serious journalists may be an oxymoron, but hey, who knows. Everything i’ve heard is that he’s been wo rking hard and this and that. whatever.
Last year..well, was he lazy and out of shape because he was injured and couldn’t really work out, or was it the other way around? Chicken or egg? Johan asid there were times Perez struggled to even walk. Not exactly condusive to staying in shape.
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
Castillo has not topped 142 games since 2004.
Largely I don’t disagree, but what is it with this group of guys who take a year or more to get healthy? Who ever heard of this?
Reyes, Beltran, Delgado, Pedro, Wagner, Maine, Perez, and more. What is it with this group and their conditioning? Or is it fortitude? Attitude? Desire to win?
Definitely a chicken and egg argument, and I am most definitely grasping at straws here while seeing a 4th consecutive disappointment unfold, but I say enough with it already.
Ollie shouldn’t need to be pampered nearly halfway through a huge contract. He should have shown up in amazing shape in March of 2009. This is just ridiculous at this point.
ceetar
5/10/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
His start before last wasn’t a disappointment.
Castillo last year was healthy the entire season, excepting that brief fall down the stairs incident. Most of the ‘rest’ is because Manuel falsely believes as you do. (such as before the Giants series him starting in 4 games in 9 days) But then throws him in the game yesterday anyway.
or ignoring him in 2008 when he returned from the post-surgery injury (which I blame on Willie pushing him)
If people want to hate on Perez, that’s fine, he’s wild and inconsistant and with the exception of a handful of games which for all I know are flukes, doesn’t seem to grasp the finer pionts of pitching.
But Castillo, besides the dropped pop-up, has really done nothing wrong as Met besides not be Chase Utley. Big deal. He’s not exactly my favorite player, but I haven’t seen anybody that I’d rather have yet become available eto the Mets.
metsfan4decades
5/10/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
gategem
5/10/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
He pitched poorly near the end of Peterson’s tenure and immediately responded to Dan Warthen when he changed Ollie’s position on the rubber. Ollie’s a grown man and Jerry and Warthen are not baby sitters. Do they have to change his diaper? The fact is every Manager and Pitching Coach that Ollie has had in the majors have met with failure in trying to change him. There comes a time when he’s just not worth the effort. Ollie’s a big boy and it’s time for him to grow up. The ball is in his corner.
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
I completely agree with this.
Enough.
I defended Ollie last year, when I knew I was dead wrong.
He signed a $36 million contract, and has been unready and unable to be even a serviceable 5th starter.
ceetar
5/10/2010-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
He pitched poorly at the beginning of 2008, yes, but It’s hard to think Warthen just showed up and made him better. More likely the fine tuning Peterson was doing started to take affect and Warthen took credit, before erasing all that progress.
I’m not saying it’s ideal, but Perez is what he is, and just telling him to grow up instead of looking to work with him is beyond stupid. Sure, he _should_ man up and figure it out himself, but he doesn’t appear to be fully capable of it. so find another way. He’s not Mike Pelfrey, who basically did figure it out himself.
gategem
5/10/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Jerry has 25 players to cope with and he can’t devote all his energy to what he and others have found to be a hopeless cause. I don’t know if you have ever had to manage people but if and when you’re in that position you’ll see that you can’t spend all your time with one employee to the detriment of others that require attention. As a manger you will learn that handling your people, though a very important part of your job, is only part of your job. If one of your employees needs guidance that requires an inordinate amount of time so your other tasks are compromised then you have to eliminate that problem. Most companies employ counselors and perhaps Ollie needs the guidance of a professional to get into his head. Anyway at that time you’ll see that it’s not “beyond stupid†to tell Ollie it’s time to “grow up.†Everyone that has had to cope with Ollie in the majors has failed to eliminate the problem. Are they also all “beyond stupid?“ Ollie has to mature and only he can accomplish this task. I agree with Kong that it may be time to look to the future and if Ollie can’t straighten himself out then he’s not part of that future.
BTW if you research Dan Warthen’s history as pitching coach you’ll see he is not an incompetent oaf.
gategem
5/10/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Should be manager not manger. Although after Ollie’s last performance manger may have been the correct term.
ceetar
5/10/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
I go back and forth on Warthen being an incompetent oaf, and Jerry seemingly won a manager of the year once, but I know he’s an incompetent oaf.
I understand your point, on the other hand, does David Wright and many of the other veterans really need “handling” by the manager? Isn’t it more important to spend the extra time with the guys that need it? Also, as far as Manuel’s responsibility, I’m more thinking in-game. Walk out there and talk to him when he’s wild.
gategem
5/10/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Actually it’s best to spend your extra time at the local strip club enjoying your favorite alcoholic beverage and forget that Ollie, Cat, GMJr, etc. are on your team.
ceetar
5/10/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
see, and I was thinking about going to the game tonight and tomorrow..
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
Largely agree. And I have been a supporter of Ollie. Ollie is more and more a representative of the past, not the future.
Maybe he was a PED user; who knows. But without great focus and control, and without throwing as hard as he once did, his chances of being a useful starter are slim to none.
A couple more chances, then he and Gee simply switch spots.
Let Ollie spend a solid 2-3 months riding the buses of the minors in the summer heat. If that is not enough to motivate him to want to win again at all costs, then sure, release him after the end of 2010.
I am all about cutting ties with the past and with losers.
It is great that Jacobs is gone; Dickey must stay away. GMJ MUST go. Cat and even Cora are difficult to watch. If Ollie has 1-2 more starts like this, to the minors he must go.
Change and progress. That is all this team can truly hang its hat on in 2010. Let’s keep that parade float moving forward. Ike, Mejia, and Niese are pulling hard, but they need some help.
rustyjr
5/10/2010-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
So true king – btw did you see me comparing barajas to skyking ?
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I liked it!
If only SkyKing could have been useful with a glove on….
rustyjr
5/10/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
He did rock the side burns though
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Oh hell yeah!
Saw I think it was the 1975 Yearbook recently—Kingman was great—did some clinic in a park with kids, and was really into it.
Seems like he was a lot nicer earlier in his career.
ceetar
5/10/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
additionally, Jerry Manuel, after every bad start by Maine or Perez, does them a disservice of stress and pressure by talking about removing them from the rotation.
rustyjr
5/10/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
He probably sees it as a motavational tool
trs86
5/10/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Here’s the problem. None of your comparisons work. Igawa had options, Ollie does not. He can just refuse assignment. GMJR was already reduced to a 4th OF. The Angels for sure had better options and GMJR had 0 talent left as a starter. Wells’s contract is huge and the Jays have no money to eat the contract.
Best you can compare Ollie to is Derrek Lowe or Carlos Silva’s contracts. Still got enough talent to fill a spot, supposed to be front of the rotation material but will just have to put up with back of the rotation.
Best we can hope for is Ollie getting frustrated with himself and agreeing to step down to AAA for a while. Problem is do you have that much more confidence in Dickey or Gee and Misch. Gee has been roughed up his last 4 starts as has Misch.
For now we are stuck with Ollie trying to right the ship.
ceetar
5/10/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
the problem with sending Ollie to AAA is that he’s already suffering from too many voices in his head. Everyone seems to tell him something different, and he may not have the level of understand of pitching to deduce what actually works for him, and what doesn’t.
Do we trust the Buffalo coach to straighen him out and teach him? Isn’t that a huge inditement of Warthen (and wouldn’t we better better off getting the Buffalo coach up here instead?)? Wouldn’t Warthen just go ahead and ruin Ollie when he returned? Perez seems pretty impressionable, and it seems like the more voices, the more he struggles.
Kingman 26
5/10/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
At this point, there should be one really loud voice screaming into the cavernous void which makes up the area between Ollie’s ears, and this voice should be yelling “GET IT TOGETHER NOW!”
Enough of this hippie, poor Ollie stuff.
12 mil a year, and he is literally only about 7-8 weeks from being halfway through stealing 36 million!
He should be given two more starts. If he does not accept AAA they should make an example of him. Let him pinch run, be last man out of the pen, and let him waste away.
Enough from him.
He needs to contribute to the team progressing or he needs to get out of the damn way.
ceetar
5/10/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I’m fine with two more starts, and if he shows nothing more than he did this last start, figuring something out. but he deserves those starts, and I doubt he’ll do what he just did.
No, not “GET IT TOGETHER NOW” because Oliver doesn’t respond that way. The problem is, for better or worse, he’s not a self-made man, and needs outside guidence. Give him taht, not yelling.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
What if he give you
6.2 IP 4BB 2ER
4.1 IP 5BB 4ER
That’s more along the lines of what he’s been doing this season. He’ll give you one decent outing and one bad one.
So if you get these above two outings what do you?
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
most likely, send him out for his next start.
because unless you think Taka is ready to step in to the rotation and go 7 every start, there does not seem to be any other SP under Met control right now that is likely to better than those ollie projecttions you gave.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
my point exactly. Ollie will give you good outings and I think we just need to lower our expectations on what he can give us as the #5 starter.
rustyjr
5/10/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
I honestly seriously doubt boras would allow Ollie to go down
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
I would think Taka would be the next in line to take Ollie’s spot. Maybe Misch gets called up to take the long relief position.
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
more likely, ollie takes it. unless you think he will go to AAA? He actually hasn’t, overall, been bad enough to warrant that.
gategem
5/10/2010-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
Gonzowill, why you sound downright bitter and on such a lovely day.
Ollie reminds me of Pete Falcone a lefty with similar talents and mentality. Falcone would admit that at any moment during the game he would lose focus no matter how well he was pitching.
LOL I’m guessing they don’t have weather of the type we saw on Sunday at Citi back in Ollie’s home town in Mexico. Hence he is not used to pitching in these elements.
LOL As far as I can see the only solution is to wait until the Mets travel to Arizona and hope Ollie gets picked up as an illegal and sent back to Mexico. Perhaps that would void his contract. Since that probably won’t happen get used to every 5th day being Ollie time.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
LOL that’s hilarious!
ceetar
5/10/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Because I think about these things.
Perez will get his next start in warm Florida. I like that.
After that it’s Wednesday in washington, followed by missing the Yankees and on target for game 1 against the Phillies, however, skipping him there due to the off day gets Pelrey and Santana against the Phillies. They definitely need to skip someone to get that to happen, whether it’s Maine or Perez I guess depends on the next starts.
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
seems like you would be better having the lefty go against the phillies, but lets wory about that a few starts down the road! A lot can happen before then.
ceetar
5/10/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
agreed, but I think too much.
preference is skip Niese (for the whole Verducci thing, whatever it’s worth) or Maine.
Perez, Pelfrey, Santana sweep the Phillies.
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
hey ceets, you made front page feature over at FWICG. Congrats!
ceetar
5/10/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
I saw, thanks.
Although he referenced what was the least decisive part of my post which was really a segue into making simple roster changes.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Hey, so now you are withholding valuable stories from TRDM?
ceetar
5/10/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Apparently. I’ll just have to find some extra value in my weekly Dossier post (which I’m working on a fun graphic for!)
gipperpdx
5/10/2010-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Ugh…Ceet, I’m going to that game 1 of the Phils series. Saw that it went from on schedule for Johan to now on schedule for Ollie after the Dodger rainout / double-header. PLEASE, Jerry, skip Ollie in the rotation that week! It’s my first game at Citi!!
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
he won’t IMO be going anywhere anytime soon.
Quite possibly though the best thing would be a new pitching coach, wince warthen seems to just be taking up space. But that probably isn’t happening either.
Ollie though seems to scream out as a guy that needs a personal tutor/guru. Just have warthen and Jerry stay the hell away from him, and let him have some ollie whisperer that speaks spanish to babysit him. Hey, if you are paying 12 mill/year, might as well invest a little extra.
Maybe A Roids cousin is available?
THe other option would be to just send him to the pen. Wold it really matter that much if he had Valdes’ role?
But that brings up the ugly truth that there is no one in the minors right now really setting the world on fire (of course Mejia is being wasted). Other than dickey of course, and do you wnat him up?
metsfan4decades
5/10/2010-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
I hate the idea of Ollie in the pen. He would be taking up a valuable spot. You could never bring Ollie out in a close ballgame and/or pressure situation. Having him there for blow out games only is a waste, IMO.
I actually think Valdes brings more value to that role out of the pen than Ollie ever would.
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
also, the 2 game situations you specifically reference are not great examples.
The last great outing I recall was against the Yankees (what was that, 8 innings, and a ton of Ks, in yankee stadium?) in I guess 2008.
And I was at game 162 in 2008. Ollie actually pitched just fine (on 3 days rest). That game was on the offense going to sleep, and of course, the BP.
But like it or not, unles he comes up lame (or puts together a string of games like yesterday), he stays in the rotation.
and for sure you have to identify a viable, long term replacement if you want to take him out of the rotation.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Here’s the issue I see in releasing Ollie.
1. He was bad yesterday, but he was okay last outing, and good against the Cards. This is the Ollie we’ve seen past 3-4 years. I still think he has a chance to be pretty decent every outing. I think he has a chance to be terrible just as much, but if he’s our #5 SP, that’s okay as long as other guys in the rotation are pitching well like they have been. It’s one thing if he struggles 3-4 games in a row, but he’s been decent in some games and if your #5 SP gives your team to be in the game every time, I would take that.
2. Who’s going to replace him? I’m thinking Taka. But who replaces Taka? I just don’t think the Mets have enough depth at SP right now. Okay, so if Gee comes to replace Ollie, do we expect him to be better than Ollie? I wouldn’t hold my breath on it. Gee is no Strassburg. I really don’t think Gee can come up to the majors and be better than Ollie, not yet.
3. Money factor. Mets attendance is down. Way down. $$ isn’t flowing in. Probably their revenue projection isn’t looking too good end of this season and next. So, even though Ollie is a sunk cost item, as long as he gives you a decent outing and keeps the team in play for the most, Mets would want to get some sort of return from him.
My suggestion? Maybe try to switch Taka and Ollie in their positions. As we’ve all seen, Taka is pretty good. Ollie can get the Lefties out AND has short attention span. So, maybe if Ollie pitches 2-3 innings rather than 5+, maybe he’ll be able to keep his focus. Just an idea…
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think Ollie requires releasing. Enigmatic young lefties are like crack, some GM always falls off the wagon.
so it might involve a swap of less than stellar contracts, but he could be moved.
But, I also have no problem with the pen idea, but only if, as you note, they find a better replacement. It likely won’t kill the mets if Ollie takes over Valdes’ role.
and maybe in short bursts (not having to pace himself), he would be able to air it out more?
stickguy
5/10/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
also, if Carlos Zambrano can be sent to the pen (when he was actualy pitching well), why not ollie!
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
His case was different. It was the BP that needed help not Zambrano. If their BP was good, big Z probably never moved to the BP.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
True but it was for Zamby too, not like he was lights out.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
I highly doubt Ollie has any trade value at this point unless the Mets are willing to eat majority of his $$ like the Angels did for GMJ.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
True but it’s not like Ollie is an old vet void of any remaining talent. I don’t think we would have to eat 90% of the contract like that.
Still even if we eat half of the contract it’s not like we have anything to replace him. With Maine and technically Niese still being question marks we can’t ship Ollie out until he sucks everynight instead of every other.
darknova306
5/10/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Preach it, gonzo! I’ve been sick of this idiot’s antics since Omar killed my “Ollie is finally leaving” euphoria in 2008. All the nonsense about his “talent” and “potential”… yeah, fine, let him realize his potential somewhere else (not happening, but a guy can dream).
oleosmirf
5/10/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
This team has absolutely no need for Oliver Perez. Every time he steps on the mound, the Mets are at a disadvantage. I’ll take middle of the road starter over him in a second and here is why.
Ollie can give you 5 perfect innings and then all of a sudden the wheels fall off and he walks the bases loaded and you have to pray for the bullpen to bail him out.
Even if he can be masterful at times, that doesn’t guarantee the team a win. The fact of the matter is, he doesnt go deep enough into games to get wins, and the bullpen has to be flawless. However when Ollie walks 7 batters in 3 innings and cant even manage to throw a strike to the pitcher and gets pulled mid inning, you need to pray that the bullpen is perfect and that the bats come alive.
The only way the Mets win with Ollie on the mound is when the bullpen is great and the Mets score lots of runs…I’ll take my chances with anyone else…
trs86
5/10/2010-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
I just can’t agree. That’s kind of revisionist history. Ollie averaged about 5.75 innings per game during most of his Met tenure. Now if you take out those 1-3 inning games that average goes way up. So it’s not like every time out he only goes 5 innings. What he does can be very damaging as he might only go 2 innings but the next time he’s going 7 innings. Hard to figure out but as a 5th starter teams could do much worse.
ceetar
5/10/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
he went 6.2 last time right? I felt like he could’ve gotten the final out. I think having pitchers finish their innings is a much underrated thing, and it’s one of Perez’s failings too, when it seems like he’s got for 5.2 and then seems to unravel. that extra out is valuable.
Also, I hate when Manuel brings a starter out for the next inning and then pulls him after one batter, regardless of what happens.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
The ole, you get one chance don’t screw up or you are coming out.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Example this season:
More than 5 innings: 3 times
5 innings: once
under 5 innings: twice.
Averaging 5 innings because of 2 bad starts.
2009 after return from injury:
More than 5 innings: 4
5 innings: 4
Less than 5 innings: 1
Ends up averaging under 5 innings because of 1 REALLY bad start.
2008
More than 5 innings: 28 times
5 innings: 2 times
Less than 5 innings: 5 times
Ends up averaging 5 2/3 innings. Take out his two worst starts in 34 starts and he’s over 6 innings per start.
ceetar
5/10/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
the Mets have enough long relief type guys in Takahashi and Nieve that I Think they can win with the occassional flub from Perez, as long as the other starts from him are good outings. He does need to rediscover the strike out though.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
Problem is two things, how much Nieve is used. Cancels him out for long relief. Two they have another pitcher that could often need their services.
stickguy
5/10/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
well, right now they have taka and Valdes that ptich pretty long in relief. And in theory, mejia is a long guy too, so should be fine for 3 innings if he is doing OK.
actually, acosta has been a SP too, so I would have no problem with him getting an extended outing (well, other than not being very good).
This is a better pen for backing up Maine and Ollie, since it would be a disaster if it was full or true OOGY types (as opposed to OOGYs in Jerry mind types) like Green.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
No doubt. I don’t see why the Mets are not stretching out Mejia every time an egg is laid.
stickguy
5/10/2010-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
probably the same reason that he isn’t in AA starting.
gategem
5/10/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
As has been pointed out repeatedly (and I will do so once again in the cause of redundancy) Ollie is the best option the Mets currently have and should stay in the rotation. However, both Jerry and Warthen must construct a contingency plan whenever Ollie starts. IOW the Mets need a swing man that can relieve or start and is on call whenever Ollie starts. Something like an understudy.
GravediggerHebner
5/10/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
“The Mets won’t win with Ollie in the rotation” is a possibility, but it is not supported by evidence. The Mets have had Oliver Perez in their rotation for all or part of 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. The only time the Mets “lost” with Ollie in their rotation was 2009, and coincidentally or not he was missing from the rotation for a significant amount of time due to injury.
You can throw out 2006 if you want to, he wasn’t on the team for that long and only made 7 starts. But he joined the rotation August 26th and from that day forward the Mets went 19-16, so they won with him in the rotation in 2006.
In 2007 he was in the rotation all season and the team went 88-74, so they won with him in the rotation in 2007.
In 2008 he was in the rotation all season and the team went 89-73, so they won with him in the rotation in 2008.
In 2009 he was in the rotation from Opening Day thru May 2nd, and from July 8 thru August 23 and the Mets record during the time he was active and in the rotation was 27-37, so in 2009 they lost with him in the rotation. Reports if we choose to believe them suggest he was injured, this is supported by stints on the disabled list and surgery.
In 2010 he has been in the rotation all season and the team is 17-14, so they are winning with him in the rotation in 2010.
The way I see it, with the exception of his and the team’s injury plagued 2009 all the Mets do with Ollie in the rotation is win.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
trs86
5/10/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Think we got problems:
Derek Lowe
Oliver Perez
stickguy
5/10/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
but at least Atl. gets to pay lowe more money, and for an extra year!
I was happy to see Lowe pass by though. I did want Ollie to leave and go for Wolf and the picks, but Omar never does listen to me.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I wanted Garland and Wolf that year for about the same price as Ollie.
Mr North Jersey
5/10/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Here is what Ollie’s starts have looked like.
Notice that no matter what the outcome he constantly still walks hitters.
He has had 6 starts so far and has had 2 good starts and if you want you can make a case he had 3.
He is hot or miss so far in 2010 and if you are going to blame bad weather on this start then the Mets might as well schedule his starts based on the weather channel.
6 starts feels like to small a sample size to make a decision but Ollie needs to stop with the 3 plus inning outings. He has already done it twice now and the Mets just can’t survive with more outings like yesterday.
Here is what Lowe’s starts have looked like. For what it’s worth.
trs86
5/10/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
That really is the biggest problem. The 1/4 of his games (normally) that will be total blowouts.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
So which one would you rather have? They guy that goes 5 REALLY bad innings almost every time or the guy who is hit or miss? Not to mention the big difference in salary, age and extra year.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
Perez more than 3 ER once, Lowe 4 times.
Mr North Jersey
5/10/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
LOL U kidding right?
Perez more than 3 ER once?
Did you notice that is only so because 2 of the times he gave up only 3/ER he didn’t even pitch 4 innings?
trs86
5/10/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, not the point. My question was still which one would you rather have. The guy that goes 5 REALLY bad innings almost every time or the guy who is hit or miss?
trs86
5/10/2010-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
I blast Perez for the innings in some of my previous post.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
How about this one. Perez has 2 quality starts and Lowe has 1. That’s bad from both.
Mr North Jersey
5/10/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
I only add Lowe’s game log because I noticed up above you felt it relevant to compare them so i’d figure i’d do u the favor and show Lowe’s game log also.
I have no intention in trying and compare Ollie with Lowe or Piniero or any other pitcher right now. It would be a waste of time since it all may be moot since a strong finish with a post season birth will wipe all this early comparisons out.
Let’s wait and see how the season ends and if players like Ollie or Sheets or any of the pitchers that we discussed in the Mets having interest in help a team make the post season or not.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
Here was what I opened with, “you think we got problems”
To me Lowe is much more of a problem to the Braves than Perez is to the Mets. If you don’t want to compare them, fine leave me be and I will compare away. I think it’s very relevant to compare Perez to other pitchers in the league because it shows that most of the competing teams have an issue with at least one pitcher like Perez, some of them multiple. Our problems are not necessarily just that Perez is an inconsistent pitcher, they problem is compounded by Maine. However, if the idea is the Mets can’t win with Perez then I beg to differ.
stickguy
5/10/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
last 3 games, Maine is 1-0 with an ERA of 2.3
At the moment, he isn’t the problem.
Mr North Jersey
5/10/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
I am not sure if I am reading you right but for the record I had no intention in telling you not to compare them again I simply added the game log when I saw you was comparing them and felt it would help to add Lowe’s also.
If you feel it is relevant I welcome you to do so to your heart’s content. I said I choose not to only because you asked me directly to do so when you said,
“My question was still which one would you rather have. The guy that goes 5 REALLY bad innings almost every time or the guy who is hit or miss?”
I also have never said the Mets can’t win with Perez for the record. I point only to his inconsistency so far in 2010 something that he has to improve upon.
trs86
5/10/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
He’s been inconsistent since he has been here. It’s just more exaggerated at this point.
Mr North Jersey
5/10/2010-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly he cant continue putting the pen in a hole like he has. He needs to put a string of good starts together.
CaseStreet
5/10/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
As a 5th starter, you could do worse. Not much worse, but worse.
Thing is, the Mets can’t trade him, won’t eat his contract (who replaces him) and will be useless in the pen considering he walks so many batters.
Ollie is like Nucular Energy. He’s highly dangerous if not controlled properly but can also wipe out the competition when used properly. Hopefully, Barajas and Blanco have their Hazmat suits on.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
Phillies have 3 guys in their rotation with higher ERA’s. Ollie’s biggest problem is his effect when he does bow out in the 3rd.
trs86
5/10/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Nats have 4.
gategem
5/10/2010-2:16pm at 2:16 pm (UTC -4)
I couldn’t care less what the Phillies or Nats have. Their problems are not my concern. But if you are going to include the Phillies then you have to realize the Phillies’ pitchers pitch in a bandbox that effects their ERA. Also the Phillies’ offense allows you to live with some members of the rotation that are not quite Cy Young candidates.
ceetar
5/10/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
ours should. Our offense could easily put up the numbers the Phillies do, if they were all performing to par.
There have been very few games that we’ve been out of. Eventually the offense will get on a hot streak, and the Mets will go on a 15/18 tear or something.
GravediggerHebner
5/10/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
Based on Total Baseball’s Park Factor CBP has a slight negative effect on pitchers and a slight positive effect on hitters. 100 is neutral (over 100 favors hitters, under favors pitchers). It’s a complicated formula you would have a far better chance of understanding than I.
CBP is 102 for hitters, 101 for pitchers
Citi Field 98 hitters, 98 pitchers
Nationals Park 99 hitters, 100 pitchers
Turner Field 98 hitters, 98 pitchers
Sun Life Stadium (Marlins) 102 hitters, 101 pitchers
So if one believes this playing baseball in Philly is essentially the same as playing baseball in Florida.
Colorado and Arizona at 109/109 are the most extreme hitters parks in the NL (Chicago is 108/108).
Petco Park 87, 88 is the most extreme pitchers park, runner up is LA 95/94.
oleosmirf
5/10/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
what would Ollie’s ERA be if he played his home games in Philly???
With their bullpen, he wouldnt make it to the all-star break
ceetar
5/10/2010-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
I’m definitely going to the game tomorrow with a friend. (We may grab Ceaser’s club tickets)
Do i go tonight alone? I’m undecided. Financially the decision would probably be to stay home, not spend $18 on transportation, $11+ on a ticket, plus concessions.. bah..
metsfan4decades
5/10/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
Looks like it’s going to be pretty cold tonight at Citi, somewhere around 45. Hope they sell Hot Toddies along side those beers…
If you go, enjoy and keep warm! I hear people were freezing out there yesterday and that was during the day…..
ceetar
5/10/2010-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
I think i’m skipping for weight loss and financial reasons tonight. very tempting, but I’m going to three games next home stand at least.
DNDJohan aka kistics
5/10/2010-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
Btw, who’s ‘Smell the Glove’ in TRDMB fantasy league?
oleosmirf
5/10/2010-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
what happens when the relief pitcher is off his game and those inherited runners score. We have been very lucky so far that Ollie has not killed as us as much as he could have…