The last month has been revelatory. We have seen basically a complete transformation from the 2009 Mets, and we have seen a team which stumbled out of the gate jettison its clearly valueless members, replace them wisely (and economically), and then begin playing a style of ball most of us did not expect to see again this soon. Whether one is the sunniest of Catatonic Optimists or the most disagreeable of the Nattering Nabob of Negativity, everyone must agree that there is an awful lot to like about this team.
The team is playing largely error-free ball. The starters are giving quality efforts almost every time out. The pen is keeping the game close and protecting leads. The offense is moving runners over and getting key RBI. The baserunning has been aggressive but smart. The overall vibe of this team is one of a young, emerging group which cannot wait to take the field again. No deficit seems too large to overcome; no lead seems too small to not add on to.
In other words, we are seeing a hustling, winning team which plays great fundamental ball. The anti-2009 Mets.
Much credit simply must be given to Jerry and his coaches.
————————————————-
The 2009 Mets were a mess in just about every possible way. The entire season was marred by out-of-shape players, terrible fundamental baseball, dropped popups, unintentional comedy on the basepaths, and the feeling that they clearly often did not have their heads in the game.
As spring training began this year, Jerry stated that fundamentals would be stressed. Some of us rolled our know-it-all eyes at this statement. Indeed, folks last year insisted that players at this level either played with good fundamentals or they didn’t; they can’t still be taught! Wrong! We have seen nothing but crisp, clear, heads-up ball much of this year, and all of the last month.
The pitching staff’s performance has been nothing short of a revelation. Johan is still a fine pitcher and a battler, but is clearly beginning the downside of his career. Ollie and Maine were expected to magically return to 2007-2008 form (by this writer among others). Niese, like any young pitcher coming off an injury, was simply a huge question mark.
Despite the constant pelting Warthen receives from all of us who think we know it all, he apparently is a very good pitching coach. The Brilliant Jacket was unable to develop Pelfrey into what he apparently has become under Warthen’s tutelage. Niese has shown lately that he may in fact be a pitcher who just goes out and throws 7 strong innings every time out. Takahashi, despite a few blips, has been largely very good. And Dickey continues to develop his mystifying knuckler, while also fielding his position very well and projecting the countenance of an unflappable wise old pro. The front end of the pen has been very good as well, where again Jerry and Warthen have experimented and apparently come up with a productive 8th inning tandem.
When examining all of this, the only rational response is that Dan Warthen may in fact have some idea of what he is doing.
————————————————-
The feeling here is that Jerry Manuel probably did not beg Omar and the Wilpons to go out and get him two true pieces of baseball drek in Mike Jacobs and Gary Matthews Jr. Watching these two utterly unproductive players start the first month of the season, along with Maine and Ollie’s continued declines, made this team nearly impossible to watch. Met players simply had to be somewhat disappointed and distracted by looking at the lineup card and seeing Mike Jacobs batting cleanup. Seeing GMJ patrol CF with his complete allergy to driving in runs, while the Angels were paying him $20 million to go very far away, could not have been a motivating factor either.
But these situations were all relatively quickly resolved, wisely and inexpensively.
Ike Davis has been eased into the bigs, gradually working his way to the cleanup spot. Jerry tried to invigorate the offense with Jose batting 3rd, then again reacted and tried to better the team by moving Jose back to leadoff, and now Jose appears to be on the verge of being his old self again. Jerry started playing Pagan every day and he has been everything we could have hoped for. Jerry put Wright in the 3 hole where the best hitter probably belongs, and he is leading the NL in RBI. Jerry shuffles the 6-7-8 spots depending on matchups and who is hot; this is a great way to operate as Francoeur is a very streaky player. Jerry has found a 1-5 which works, and he is apparently sticking with it.
————————————————-
The bottom line is that a manager and his staff must receive credit for the positives if they are going to be hammered for the negatives. The mentality that says “Well, they are winning IN SPITE of Jerry†just doesn’t wash. It is like the most unreasonable of fans who on the one hand says that David Wright can’t drive in a meaningful run, but then when confronted with the idiocy of this argument backed by Wright’s actual RBI stats, comes back and says “Well, look at all the RBI chances he has—he SHOULD lead the league!†Just ridiculous.
The players clearly are playing hard and smart at all times, which is why Jesus Feliciano’s failure to run hard his very first MLB at bat and the time Barajas tried to stretch a single and was thrown out at second stuck out so very much. This is not your 2009 NY Mets. They appear to want to play hard for Jerry, and they truly seem to be bonding and developing into a tight group.
Which came first, the chemistry or the winning? A debate for the ages.
But the winning has been coming; this is beyond debate.
After we hopefully finish a 1986-style 6-game beatdown of two of baseball’s true dregs, we play the Yankees, Tigers, Twins, Marlins, Nats, Reds, and Braves heading into the break. That’s a rough dancecard.
The next 3+ weeks are going to truly show what this team is. Winning at home and beating the bad teams anywhere are signs of a good team. Beating the Yanks, Nats, and Marlins on the road while playing at least .500 ball against the Tigers, Twins, Reds and Braves will almost certainly show us that this team is here to stay.
Gil Hodges, Yogi Berra, Davey Johnson, and Bobby Valentine without question largely set the tone for their pennant-winning teams. It appears that Jerry Manuel, despite the incessant complaining from those of us who think we know better, might very well be laying the groundwork for a very similar happening.
130 comments
rustyjr
6/17/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
Hehe kong said fallacy
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
I’ve been critical of Warthen, but I’ve always maintained I find it very hard to really evaluate a pitching coach. So much goes on that we don’t know about. Pelfrey was much much younger and rawer when Peterson was here, and it took Warthen a season and a half and a new pitch to get Pelfrey here. And here is because Pelfrey is a good pitcher, maybe a great one. There are plenty of poor pitching performances out there too, but again, it’s hard to evaluate which someone else could’ve fixed, and what would be worse if he left.
For the funadmentals… to me, them playing well this year is even more indictive of Manuel’s failings. I maintained last year that this team was better fundamentally than they showed. It’s the same coaches (although Razor on the bench instead of third may be helping, he seems to be a good guy from the extremely limited data I have to judge on) so the likely scenario is that 2010 is different, mainly because they’re winning and healthy.
As for the roster moves… Gary Matthews Jr was here, but he sucks. We all knew this, and we all knew we were hoping to get lucky for a bit with a backup guy. Angel Pagan has, and had, played very very well as a Met. So yes, Manuel should get criticism for basically making GMJ the starter for the first couple of games until he played himself out of it. Even Manuel admits this is a mistake (which is a start, I’ll live with him if he does actually learn from his mistakes, something I find he doesn’t really do). Using Jacobs may have been forced by injury, but where he used him and how wasn’t. Cora is basically going to get his extension (and yes, this doesn’t really matter at all) because Manuel played him too often over Castillo. (Castillo was hurting, but he was on the roster and said he could go, and is better than Cora). Jenrry Mejia is only here because Manuel wants him here. Manuel still mismanages the bullpen to failure. It’s only being masked by the performance of the starters, but there will come another stretch where Niese labors, and Dickey gets hit around.
And don’t forget the bunting.
fongy2
6/17/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Its like with Bill Robinson back in the ’80s….God rest his Soul….But way too much
credit!!…Alot easier to be
a good Hitting Coach when
the middle of your line-up
reads Hernandez/Carter/Strawberry
All in their prime hitting
3/4/5…JuuNoWatEmSayin’???
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
And try to take a look at the standings and stats sometime—might be educational for you.
Then again, probably not.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
They’re what, 4 games over .500 with Manuel? he sucks. All the usage stats for bullpens point to failure. Good teams are good, why should he get credit for what the players do? and if that was the case, he should’ve been fired after both 2008 and 2009.
fongy2
6/17/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
Point is,are we getting Leyland,Scioscia
Pinelle,LaRussa
to Mgr instead
of Jerry???
If not whats the Diff b/t
him and Bob Melvin or Willie Randolph??
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
I trusted Willie more, at least when the games really counted. But regardless, I’d take anyone over Jerry. Bob Melvin may not be much better, but at least he’d theoretically be a ‘real’ interim manager.
And we’re not getting Leyland, but there are plenty of good managers out there, both discovered and undiscovered. (I’d be fine with Bobby Valentine. I like my manager to be intelligent)
fongy2
6/17/2010-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
You failed to mention the likely negative effect The WBC had on the
team which sent the most Reps there…
…By far.
Anyway, like I argued a month or two ago, outside of Leyland,Pinella,Scioscia,Guillen,LaRussa,Bochte And maybe one of two others
Yop can interchange about 20 Mgs with
diff clubs and get similar results.
If you don’t have the players AND they
don’t perform, your not gonna win!
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Exactly. Re: Torre with the Mets and Torre with the Yankees.
fongy2
6/17/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
Well, I can excuse Torre. Just retiring as a player I think
he obviously figured
ALOT more out 20yrs later by the time he landed the yankee job.
I think its better to
look at Torre and Girardi…..What Torre
doesn’t win with that
group last year?
If not Girardi, just
about anyone takes that team to the series last yr.
That job was basically,make out the line-up card, don’t screw too much with the Bullpen and stay out of the way…..
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
MF4D, the Torre example is just false. Totally.
He did very well with the Braves when one looks at the roughly decade before and after Torre. Look it up–how can he be said to have been anything less than very good with Atlanta?
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
What I’m saying is you can have a very good manager but for the most part, the team is only going to be as good as it’s talent. You can squeeze some wins out of a mediocre team with good management but you can’t make them something they’re not.
Conversely, I think the opposite is true. With a talented team, they should win despite a clueless manager, for the most part.
But in both examples, as we’ve very well seen, those couple of wins either way could make a big difference.
That being said, I still don’t like Jerry’s BP management.
fongy2
6/17/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
On all points,
understood and
agree!:)
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
i dont blame the WBC one bit, we werent the only team that sent our players…
fongy2
6/17/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Again, “Not one bit”,
Not at all, No chance,
not even a little…..
O.K. my friend, if you
say so………
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
The 2009 Mets were a mess in every way you mentioned – but the biggest reason for that was b/c of all the injuries, season ending ones, to the regulars. Left us fielding a team of regulars that mostly wouldn’t be bench players in the majors, let alone regulars. That was just some incredibly bad luck, the kind I hope to never see again in my lifetime.
Speaking of sound fundies…Jason Bay has now played 248 games, going back to 2008, error free. Oh, and he had an OF assist last night. So take that! – fangraphs and youre original negative WAR stat on Bay.
Regarding Warthen…I’ll admit to not having a clue if he really is a good pitching coach or not. Two pluses in his column on his watch for Pelfrey and Niese. Two minues in his column on his watch for Ollie and Maine. Can’t realistically credit the two, without laying some blame for the other two.
Jerry….I don’t have the FIRE Jerry mentality that some do. That being said, I don’t think he’s brilliant either. My biggest complaint is his BP management. If he’s one of the biggest reasons Mejia is up here than that’s a big strike against him in my book. Mejia’s development is being wasted right now and I don’t know how anyone could make an arguement otherwise.
My opinion on the chemistry/winning thing? The chemistry came first. First 6 weeks with the likes of Cat, Jacobs, Maine, Perez, etc. saw them struggling. Now with Ike, Dickey, Niese back, Carter it made for a better chemistry all the way around.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
with regards to Jerry’s mismanaging the bullpen, besides Mejia, I do not see what he could do differently. With Ollie and Maine unable to go deep into starts, he was forced to use those guys early and often especially with his job on the line.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
his job was never that close to being on the line, and he likely knew it. See Jeff Wilpon’s comments that he wasn’t going to fire anyone that early in the season.
there were plenty of other ways to use the bullpen, including not using Nieve 17 days in a row or warming up FRankie Rodriguez for 2-hours before using him.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
well besides K-Rod and Feliciano (Takahashi was reserved for the Ollie/Maine implosions) you have a bunch of scrubs in Nieve, Valdes, Dessens and 2 unknowns Mejia and Igarashi in the pen…the options just aren’t there
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
One example comes to mind is a game earlier this year – don’t remember which one. It was when the SP was not good and the BP was in for at least 4 innings a night. Jerry used 4 arms one night to get one out in the 8th inning (I beleive). We were losing and all I kept thinking was if we tied it, we’re gonna be seeing Wright on the mound pitching in extras…
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
in my opinion the Mets are winning despite the fact they have a bad bullpen. Luckily our SP, defense and hitting have essentially eliminated the need for a 7 man bullpen but that doesnt mean Omar shouldnt be looking to upgrade
fongy2
6/17/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Oleo, I think when your SP,Defense AND Hitting are
all good, its beyond being lucky…..
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
fortunately might be the better word but its still not a good excuse for having a bad bullpen (well a bad 5 out of 7 guys in the bullpen)
fongy2
6/17/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
I think THAT
would be The GMs fault….
Very little talent out there, hence few
in-game options.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
of course it is Omar’s fault…
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Nice article King you make some nice points.
I wrote a comment in the post-game post replying to a comment you made about Jerry but I won’t go copy and paste it here now I will just say I give Jerry some credit mostly for seeing when he made a mistake and correcting it but other than that the team’s good play doesn’t have much to do with him except that he lets the players play and that’s about it.
What this team will be has yet to be seen. Right now while they are in this run that they are on I am simply trying to enjoy the good play and let things fall where they may because while this is a great stretch of baseball by the Mets this team will show me who they are once August and September rolls around.
It is good to see how Ike Davis rather than Murphy at 1st and Reyes at SS rather than Cora and Bay in LF rather than Sheffield and a full season of Frenchy in RF rather than Church hass done for the overall team’s defense.
Then add the contributions of Barajas & Blanco (signings Minaya def deserve credit for).
Also add the contributions Carter and Tejada have made so far and the MVP in my opinion Angel Pagan who has been the most consistent Met imo in 2010 so far with the exception of Pelfrey.
You can see why this team is so much better so far than 2009 for sure.
Speaking of Pelf what can be said that hasn’t already been said about his 2010 so far?
Minaya said he expected MOP to rebound in 2010 well 1 out of 3 is better than 0 for 3. What the future holds for Ollie and Maine idk but if anyone had to rebound I am glad it was PELF.
There is a lot to be happy with in 2010 but I know it is about how we finish so I will enjoy the ride and I will be cautious of how much or how little praise I give the Mets coaches and FO for now.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Also, the media mostly loves Manuel because he makes story writing easy.
Look no further than the Animal nickname for Carter which has really taken off with media stories about his intensity, etc.
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
You see ZERO reason to feel that the night-and-day difference from 2009 in fundamentals, hustle, and attitude is at all due to whatever Jerry is doing?
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
no, or they would’ve last year. I think 2009 is the reason they’re hustling this year, and the winning, and just the general revenge feeling of playing with a chip on their shoulder from being counted out.
Whould should I think a guy that coached a team to a collapse, managed them to a second collapse, and then had a year full of injuries and screwed up fundamentals and quitting in september would suddenly be able to motivate the team?
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
the Mets lineup is healthy this year and the rotation minus Ollie and Maine are great from 1-5 so the team is winnging
add in more personable and likeable guys like Francouer, Barajas and Bay instead of Sheffield, Boring Schneider and Church and you have a looser clubhouse.
I think the players like Manuel and he is a good motivator but other than that I dont think Herm Edwards i mean Jerry Manuel is the main reason…
stickguy
6/17/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
don’t underestimate the importance of having a real glove at 1B either. Plugging Ike in really helped solidify the defense.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
lefty glove!
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
He coached them to a collapse in 2007?
2008 was his fault with the worst bullpen on the planet?
I give up; rest assured you will never receive a rude response from me again.
ceetar
6/17/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
look at the numbers for those 2008 guys. unperformed, all of them. I could run out any number of examples of one game he mismanaged which ended up being the difference.
He was part of the collapse of 2007. If he had some magic solution to make guys play better, he would’ve used it.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/17/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
I give credit to Bay for hustling. He’s hasn’t produced offensively, but I think his hustle on every play sets a good example on younger guys.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
It does. This is why I don’t yet get on Bay for the power-outage. He’s really a nice wellrounded player. he plays a good OF, and a smart one. (yesterday, and this may have been partly cause he was smarting from the pain, but the hitter laced a double into the corner and he didn’t rush, played it off the corner and threw it in. He knew the runner wasn’t going to push for three and he had time)
he runs hard out of the box and just seems like a good guy.
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
I have no problem giving Jerry credit for what’s happening. No manager is going to make ALL the right moves EVERY nite. Yea he has his issues but the players seem to like playing for him so I’m good with that. Regardless though of who’s responsible for the way they have been playing I am LOVING it and could care less if its all Jerry, some Jerry or no Jerry. The turnaround in attitude, approach to every game and flat out hustle is very apparent and makes them a joy to watch.
As far as Warthen, the evolution of Pelf and Niese surely has something to do with him. With Maine and Ollie I’m not sure there’s anything that could have been or could be done to salvage either or both of those situations.
Like I said though whatever the reason(s) it is awesome to watch the difference between last year and this year.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
You are right what we should be doing is “enjoying the ride” but when you have posts that suggest who should or shouldn’t get credit or who should or shouldn’t get blame. Enjoying the ride will tend to get lost in that debate.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
I’m enjoying the ride, but when the discussion comes up, I’m going to point out why we need a better manager. Same reason I would point out why GMJ needed to go even when we were winning.
Then there is the whole proactive/reactive thing. With 17 games left, up 7, in 2007, I was enjoying the ride too.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
exactly which is why Jerry should not be given an extension and despite this great winning streak we cant be reactive…we have a bullpen problem and this winning streak shouldnt make us forget that.
and weakening our fantastic rotation to move Takahashi to the pen is not an answer…it hurts more than it helps
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
You’re right. I think we are spending too much time trying to figure out or debating “why” when the “why” doesn’t matter. What matters is the “is” as in “this is incredibly enjoyable” regardless of the reason. Its like the miracle of the universe…you spend so much time trying to figure out how it is all possible that you miss the best miracle of all…enjoying the miracle that is life! Ok enough philosophy for today
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
So the site should just have articles devoid of opinion, debate, or expression and we should all just hold hands and sing Kumbaya?
I sure don’t miss the best miracle of all, enjoying life—for some of us, thinking and debating the WHYs and HOWs of life IS part of the beauty of life.
I find it extremely interesting that a team which in April appeared headed for a sub-.500 disaster has rebounded incredibly.
I find searching for the reason for this to be interesting and invigorating.
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Nope nothing at all wrong with figuring out why but I guess I just don’t think it should overshadow what’s happening. We should ALL be enjoying this…it just seems to me that too many people are getting caught up in trying to prove their side of the fence that its taking away from the enjoyment. Just my opinion….not saying we should all agree but we should ALL be enjoying. Just don’t want the debate to overshadow the most important thing…the way they are playing. Especially after last year.
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Well, I am sorry if I gave that impression. I HATED the first month and was finding it hard to even watch.
I LOVE this team, and have since 1973, and the last month has been amazing. I cannot wait for the games every day again, and that feels great.
I guess I am so damn happy about the changed fortunes of this team, I am eagerly searching out who we should be thanking for it.
Maybe that gets my point across better.
But in all seriousness, NONE of us on here know the game better than Jerry and Warthen.
Anyone on here who thinks they do is really delusional.
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
No need for “sorry”…we are all on the same team. I can certainly understand how you feel becuz I feel exactly the same way. I remained positive in the spring but still felt there was a possibility they could tank. To have them playing this way is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. They may not end up winning the division but the attitude and the hustle is really the most we can ask for after last year.
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
And by the way, Jerry must get at least some credit for the attitude and hustle. Would have been easy to set the bar low after last year but that does not appear to be the case.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Not that I am disagreeing with what you said but anytime you have questioned Jerry or Warthen’s decisions in the past or anytime in the future isn’t that an admission of you saying you know better?
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Yes. I was wrong.
I don’t know better.
I love learning, I always have an open mind, and as the founder of Faber College famously said, “Knowledge is good.”
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Well Honestly the idea that you will never question a manager’s or a pitching coaches move in the future is interesting indeed.
Personally I definitely don’t intend to follow that course. Questioning decisions because we feel the wrong one was made and suggesting why wasn’t another move done instead is and will be one part of what being a fan is to me at least.
If that suggests that those that do so believe they know better than the manager then so be it.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Your post will do exactly what it is doing stirring debate pro and con as to why or why not persons X-Y-Z deserve credit or not and so far it looks like a good debate.
Metsgirl point is while that is a good for those that choose to engage in that.
The bigger picture is the ride itself and simply enjoying it.
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Once again, you are right on the money.
Totally correct.
But Mr N, please rest assured that I have enjoyed the last month of Met baseball SO very much. That’s what inspired this piece.
The best part is that about 6 weeks ago, I thought there was zero chance I would be enjoying baseball so much this year.
I love being wrong.
fongy2
6/17/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Right with you there Homey!
I was more than a little wrong about this group….To quote Maxwell Smart…WRONG “And Loving It!”….
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
I will say this. From all evidence I’ve seen and heard, the players love Jerry, for the most part. That has to count for something towards their success.
ceetar
6/17/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
I disagree with this, but it’s basically semantics and arguing what a player means and what he didn’t say, so I won’t go into it.
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
Great point MF4D. They loved Gil and they loved Davey and many loved Bobby V and they certainly respected Yogi.
They sure didn’t really like Willie or Art Howe.
ceetar
6/17/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
they didn’t love Willie or Howe? But they loved Bobby V? I thought players didn’t love Bobby V? and I’m not sure I care who the players love or do not love. Most of the guys on this team are guys who would play hard for anyone.
stickguy
6/17/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
Jerry still isn’t very good. The team (players) is just better.
I still don’t trust him to manage the pitching staff. But to be fair, thee have been a few tiems recently where the SP came out of an inning (often the 7th) where I was not expecting him to. So that is progress.
but, he has never shown the ability to smartly use the pen. Or really to think ahead with moves (I always figured that he must be lousy at chess).
So, quite possibly like FOngy says, he is just an average, interchangeable manager. But probably on the low end of the scale strategically, but above average for players liking him?
I have no expectation now that he will be canned mid-season, unless a totally horrific crash and burn happens soon. So, he will be here for the rest of the year, and that is fair.
But I still want them to try an dfind someone better for next year and the future. A serious, professional guy that will get the most out of the entire roster. And make good moves with his pen arms!
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
again with regards to the bullpen what do you do when your choices are Valdes, Nieve, Igarashi, Dessens and Mejia. you roll with the hot hand and thats what Nieve was early in the year…and what Dessens is now.
unless the SP keep going 7+ every start, we wont be able to get by with just Feliciano, K-Rod and the 1 guy out of the other 5 that is on a hot streak…
njstuckintx
6/17/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
If anything Oleo, when you pass away (hopefully 100 years from now with a productive and enjoyable life well lived), we’ll make sure we put on your tombstone “Enjoyed Life, Loved by many and Champion of Bullpen Upgrades”.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
as long as Omar’s says either “but I got K-Rod and Putz!!!” or “i have faith in my guys”
njstuckintx
6/17/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
I’ll give Manuel some credit (as we give him hell when the team is losing), but no way he is totally responsible for the turn around. With kids contributing as they are, Reyes being Reyes, Pagan playing above what everyone thought he could, etc., I feel the Mets are producing in spite of Manuel, rather than some by product of what he was doing.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Ditto
stickguy
6/17/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Great teams can be managed on cruise control, or by a trained monkey. I call this the Torre theory.
It is when thee are problems that a great manager will rise to the occasion, and lead a team anyway. Usually they are said to overacheive.
Just seems like some teams always do better than expected, even with injuries, etc. Say, the Angels under Scosia.
ANd others that have (paper) talent still end up not doing well.
Right now, Jerry is leading a team that is on auto pilot.
I just don’t see anything in the way he manages (or his history) to suggest that he is a difference maker when the team is springing a few leaks.
Jerry teams do not “overacheive”
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Geez, will someone look at what Torre did in Atlanta and STOP using him as an example?
The Lord above could not have won with the Torre Met teams!
Come on!
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
nor could Connie Mack win with the 2009 Mets…
fongy2
6/17/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Brock, stop wasting
your time with the irrational Jerry haters. You won’t get through. Its always the Mgrs fault, never the players nor the FO
guys responsible for
building the team.
Don’t ja know???
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
You are cool.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
-sigh
CaseStreet
6/17/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
speaking of, Omar has put together a pretty good team, wouldn’t you say?
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
LOL – it’s sure shaping up to look that way.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
do I think Jerry is a good manager absolutely not but I am not naive enough to say he has nothing to do with this winning streak.
CaseStreet
6/17/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
sorry, I can’t forgive Jerry for;
1. in-game mismanagement (bunts, bullpen, pinch hitters, etc.)
2. throwing his players under the bus
3. using the media as his communication/whipping tool for the players
that said I do give Jerry credit for:
1. focusing on fundamentals
2. finally getting the lineup right
As long as the team keeps playing well, I see no need for a new manager, but if Jerry hurts us getting to or in the playoffs, then FIRE JERRY and join me at http://www.joetorre4mets.com
ceetar
6/17/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I’d rather Mattingly. younger.
njstuckintx
6/17/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Plus, his ‘Stache. We should make Ike grow one, just on principle of great first basemen with the upper lip folicles!
stickguy
6/17/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
replacing jerry is fine.
But I don’t want Torre.
Get a sharp young mind to build with LT, and invest the 5+million/year saved on player upgrades, or IFAs. Or lower the price of beer.
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t want Torre either. In fact, I don’t want any former manager, including Bobby V. I’d like to see a sharp young mind as well. Question is, would they go with inexperience again – ala Willie?
stickguy
6/17/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
I am fine with a former manager. Just not a hugely expensive dinosaur, or one with a ton of “baggage”
some of the best managers had to get their feet wet in a job before becoming fully sucsessful in their 2nd stop.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/17/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Very well put. I completely agree with you on Jerry.
I would like to see Keith as the manager… but probably won’t happen.
stickguy
6/17/2010-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Case makes an interesting, jmportant and often overlooked point.
Even the jerry supporters/defenders have been screaming that it isn’t jerry’s fault, the GM is repsonsible for putting the team on the field, etc.
Well, if this team is now successful, it has to be because the GM built it, right (since he was 100% rsponsible when it wasn’t)?
So, this post is irrelevant. It really whould have been singing the praises of Omar, for bilding this wonderful team.
Jerry is just an innocent bystander, since managers are totally overrated, and have relatively little impact on the outcome of the game.
Wonder if Cerrone still has a supply of “In Omar we trust” T-shirts in his garage?
Anyway, if Jerry deserves credit right now, it is for staying out of the way for the most part, and keeping the tinkering to a minimum. Just a few oddities, like PH for his DH in back to back games where the team is winning.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
My thing is giving too much praise when the season has yet to be played out.
You can look at the current situation and say things like so far it looks to be like so and so’s moves are paying off but you have to be careful because there is a lot of baseball yet to play and you may end up eating your words.
Barajas may fall off the face of the earth for the rest of the season.
Bay may never hit more that 15 homers or drive in more than 60 rbi’s.
Iggy and Takahashi may simply get figured out and get clobbered the rest of the way.
Manuel’s overuse of arms in the pen may have negative results.
Not saying this is what is going to happen but rather just that one has to be open and cautious to the possibility.
The season is far from over the same way people should be cautious of whom they blame they need to be cautious of whom they praise.
Many of Minaya’s moves so far in 2010 have been paying off and many haven’t. This team will be remembered for how they finish the season not how they played their 1st half in my opinion.
It would be unfair of me to say Minaya has done a great job on June 17th. I will say his moves so far have been paying off but their is still much baseball to be played and I hope the current trend continues and eagerly await to see what type of character this team shows down the stretch.
stickguy
6/17/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
of course you have to let the season play out before judging (the manager and the GM).
My point was that there is a lot of hypocrisy going on about the blam/credit to the GM vis a vis the manager.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
I agree about the hypocrisy stick. I know you know I gave Minaya a hell of a hard time for last season. I was very saddened with his whole wait for the cavalry approach. I was glad he wasn’t fired only because I wanted to see if he could make amends and right his wrongs during the off season.
When Spring Training opened I was very disappointed at Minaya for not getting a front end starter as is well recorded all over this blog.
Iggy, Taka and Dickey? I was like WTF?
You can see already that so far I was wrong to be so disappointed and in fact those guys have been paying off. So rather than start to give him too much praise only to find myself being wrong for doing so before we see them over a full season. I will say they have paid off so far but the season is long from over so I will wait till the season is over and adjust accordingly.
stickguy
6/17/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
last year didn’t actually bother me that much. I think (maybe just looking in retrospect) that Omar knew there were too many holes to patch to make it a winning year, so he decided to just circle the wagons, and look toward 2010.
Probably a much smarter idea than making a couple more kazmir deals, and still falling short.
Hey, sometimes you make the “right” decision and get a bad result, and sometimes you make a dumb decision that somehow works out.
and since we will never know the entire thought process, all we can evaluate is the end result.
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting interview with Jon Niese right now on WFAN:
‘Jerry is intelligent. Makes all the right decisions that lead to winning. Always has some words of wisdom for the players’ He’s really a great manager to play for’. Words to that effect.
They jokingly asked Niese if he would ever think about having RA teach him the knuckle ball. He laughed and said no, it better not ever come down to that.
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
Niese also sees no reason for another SP. Don’t fix what ain’t broke type of mentality.
stickguy
6/17/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
players usually stick up for their teammates like that.
But, they absolutely need another SP available, at least for depth. never know when someone gets hurt, or just tires out.
I actually am worried about Taka buring out at some point from the workload. A big reason for him to go back to the pen.
question is (and a big one for Omar to answer) is, do you think that Maine or Ollie will be able to give you solid production at any pint in the rotation if required? If you aren’t sure, then get a live arm in here.
Westbrook, guthrie, someone like that would be a nice sandbag for the rotation.
Oh, and feel free to sign Maya too.
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, if Maya looks good, I want the Mets to go hard after him too. Only money, no prospects we have to give up.
I too agree 100% about pitching depth. Can never have enough. Just look at last year.
I’m thinking Omar has about another month to really make a decision about what Maine and even Ollie can contribute this year. Depending on what he sees from these two, is going to determine who, if anyone, he goes after by the trade deadline.
I’m with ya on Taka back to the BP also. He was great in the BP. Good in the rotation, but great in the BP.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
but if Takahashi gives you 7 IP 3 R every start you cant afford to replace him with Maine who can barely get you a quality start
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
Absolutely agree. Taka is a big part of why we’re 9 games over .500 right now. I don’t know how Maine and even Ollie are going to showcase what they can do, it’s going to be tricky.
I’m thinking maybe Maine gets his first start, skipping Taka’s start and Taka is in the BP ready to go at the first sign of trouble. I just don’t think Maine’s first start is going to be anywhere near what Taka has given us so far in the rotation. Time will tell.
As far as Ollie, I guess we worry about that if/when he’s ready to come back. Too much can happen between now and then.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
you leave this rotation as is until Takahashi or Dickey are no longer pitching well.
if it aint broke, dont fix it…
njstuckintx
6/17/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
But best to be prepared for the worst, no?
stickguy
6/17/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
and to be prepared for the fact that like it or not, Maine and Ollie will be back at some point, and will have to be dealt with. And there is IMO a very low probability that they just get cut outright before being given a chance to pitch.
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, we all know better than Niese–I mean, after all, he is just an MLB player; Jerry is a moron.
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Mad props for sticking to your guns, dude
But I do think there is more truth than not to the idea that on some level they like playing for Jerry. Something he said or did had to get thru to them in the spring or they would have continued the non-hustling, sloppy play of last year even before the injuries.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
I keep reading this talk about the “non-hustling, sloppy play” of last year and I would like for someone to refresh my memory because I think I am missing something.
This “non-hustling, sloppy play” we talk about were they the result of the following players?
Rod Barajas
Ike Davis
Jose Reyes
David Wright
Jason Bay
Angel Pagan
Jeff Francoeur
Luis Castillo
Isn’t the “non-hustling, sloppy play” I keep hearing about a result of players that are no longer here because they were playing out of position or old or bench players forced to be starters to some extent? Players like Murphy and Sheffield and Church and Cora and for that matter Shneider?
metsgirl31
6/17/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
You sir make a good point. I guess it is true that “sloppy” play was a result of the injuries which meant people playing out of position and people being on the roster who should not have been. But I just kind of get an overall different feel from this team this year which, as you pointed out, is probably becuz of the roster turnover. Maybe I’m giving Jerry too much credit but whether Jerry or not they could have very easily played down to the expectations many had for them in the spring; but to their credit they have not done that at all.
njstuckintx
6/17/2010-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
When the wheels fall off the bus, it’s tough to keep you head in it mentally. I know, they get paid a lot of money so they better keep their head in the game, but human nature is human nature. That compounded by the fact that players who should not have been in the bigs were starting for the Mess of 09, of course they’re gonna play sloppy. So, yeah, I agree with your point you are making MNJ.
ceetar
6/17/2010-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, Wright and Reyes had some boneheaded/sloppy moves. more errors than normal, etc.
Murphy made a ton of mistakes (much less at first/second half), but he definitely hustled. Tatis, Sheffield, Pagan, Schneider, Santos, etc. (Castillo had the big one, but for the most part he wasn’t really sloppy and he always hustles.)
Beltran (although again, that was only one play where he didn’t slide. Relatedly, I want nothing to do with discussions with people that don’t want Beltran back and would rather play Frenchy for some intangible chemistry benefit)
I think part of it was that they were playing frustrated, and pressing. The revolving door at 1B led to more errors from infielders (and more pressing errors as they didn’t trust their 1B to get it if it wasn’t perfect.)
And yes, the playing guys out of position, which wasn’t just because of injuries, but was somehow ‘strategic’ like Reed at first.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
I think the point is that this year team is a more younger well rounded defensive team.
Players like Bay while struggling offensively plays hard all the time. Ike Davis looks to do the same also. There seems to be more energy from the team day in and day out.
When the Mets trot out an infield of Davis, Tejada, Reyes and Wright I can’t help but smile at how many balls that infield will get to and with the exception of Wright’s throwing they are pretty sold in my opinion. Add to that Blanco and his gun behind the plate to go along with Frenchy’s arm in RF and Bay’s solid play in LF and top it off with Pagan’s much improved play in CF this year and well you can see why the Mets are making way fewer errors this season.
ceetar
6/17/2010-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
Not to take away from anything, but I’ve been hot and cold on Tejada’s defense. He’s made some nice plays in spots, but I’ve also seen some not so nice ones. young/inexperience? major league jitters? He also seems a little slower than I would’ve expected. It definitely seems like he’s not ready offensively though. (And Manuel agrees on that.)
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Well I think the sample size is still too small to tell but in Tejada’s defense he has hit safely in 5 of the 7 games he has played in since being called up this 2nd time around.
He has played in 7 of a possible 11 games so far and has only a total of 24 ab’s so far under his belt in that time.
What he will be offensively remains to be seen but Jerry said all he wants from him is to hit around .250 to .260 and if he goes 2 for 4 tonight he would be hitting .250 since being called up.
ceetar
6/17/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
Definitely small sample size on both ends. I don’t think he should ever sit back to back games, but that’s a development issue I guess. Yeah, 2/4 would get him back up there. He’s made a billion outs so far though, a triple play and at least one double play. We’ll see. he was hitting waht, .284 in AAA? not exactly lighting it up anyway.
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Angel Pagan.
That’s really the one player to look at to symbolize the dramatic difference between this year and last regarding sloppy play.
Wright definitely has had his head in the game this year, when last year he made quite a few baserunning errors.
And they certainly weren’t playing “frustrated and pressing” when right in the middle of the race until July. They just played sloppy all year.
ceetar
6/17/2010-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
well, there was a lot of pressure on them early. (predicted to win it all even) And it’s not like they were ever _cruising_. Wright was always slumping power-wise, pressing there. But maybe they started out just slumping a little defensively and pressed to try to fix it and more and more as guys got injured?
I think Pagan benefited from the regular playing time this year. and CF. Allows him to b e a little more aggressive and all-out.
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
What also helped Pagan I believe is he had the bonus of knowing he was going to see considerable time at CF this year with Beltran being hurt and I think also every player that played through last season made a concerted effort to not repeat the same mistakes in 2010.
Which is why I believe what is going on with Ollie and Maine is simply the realization that they will never be the same again after the injuries they sustained.
stickguy
6/17/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
managers like bosses. and employees like players want the same thing: a boss that doesn’t bother them, or that they can walk all over!
ceetar
6/17/2010-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
maybe slightly different. I don’t think employees like a manage that’s always reading from “leadership” books and quoting from them. But maybe players do?
I’m sure some players like Jerry for his easy-going, laughing, quote-of-the-day style. But i don’t believe anything anyone says about their boss while at work, whether it’s a player, a coworker, or anyone else.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/17/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Oh BTW, why is Mejia still up here?
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
b/c they are idiots…
Mejia hasnt struck out a batter in the month of june and hasnt pitched in a pressure situation in over a month. Acosta can replace him just fine…
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
THAT is a good question.
I think it’s because Jerry does not trust anyone other than KRod and Feliciano in the pen; maybe Dessens is earning his trust.
I think it simply is because he doesn’t want to use anyone other than those four guys.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/17/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
So Mejia should be sent down. I mean his role is a mop-up guy right now and anyone can do that. MC has said that Acosta or Parnell could probably do the same thing that Mejia is doing.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Acosta probably does a better job then Mejia at this point…but if he wants the power arm, Parnell works too…
GravediggerHebner
6/17/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
To me, Jerry’s horribleness has always been overblown. I can see with my own eyes using my own subjective opinions that I don’t agree with every decision he makes. Sometimes those decisions I don’t agree with succeed, sometimes they fail. Sometimes the ones I agree with fail, sometimes they succeed.
But I maintain that the impact of the vast majority of baseball managers, positive or negative, is extremely finite and I find earnest quests for their dismissal, and similarly earnest quests for the hiring of specific others to replace them ultimately laughable.
While intelligent debate is positive and healthy, it’s highly unlikely that a 26 year old graduate student, or a 15 year old high school student, or a 44 year old garbageman, or a 37 year old corporate executive, or a 65 year old retiree, whether any of those people played, coached or managed baseball at any non-professional level, knows more about it than any professional manager or general manager or coach.
So it’s certainly engaging and interesting to debate the merits of any of those professionals’ moves, but to get so worked up about them that we can’t get through a day without pointing out their foibles and calling for their heads is over the top in this writer’s opinion.
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
Can I be the 15 year old high school student?
GravediggerHebner
6/17/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
You’ll have to come in and read for the part but that’s just a formality, you are who we had in mind when we wrote it.
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!!!
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I should expect the most rational, reasonable comment to come from you.
NONE of us have a slim clue about baseball compared to Jerry and Warthen.
And I more and more agree that the overall tone a manager sets is what is most important in baseball. Some managers simply get the best from their players everywhere, whether it is Davey Johnson or Billy Martin, or even Joe Torre, who did get the most from his Braves, Yankees and Dodgers teams, and probably his Mets and Cards teams too.
Yes, every last game is important, but the overall tone that this team seems to have of nonstop hustle and great fundamental ball might in fact be much more important than us (me definitely included) whining over a bunt or a pitching change.
It’s not football or even basketball; baseball is an eternal season, and getting guys to hustle and play smart all year might be the best thing a manager can do.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
however I do believe GM decisions have such a lasting impact that they should be criticized (and praised).
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
And there you have it.
While the manager knows more that doesn’t mean we must or have to agree with all his decisions because he does know more. In fact that is what is great about baseball that you can disagree with moves he makes and debate them thoroughly as everyone on this blog has done time and time again.
GravediggerHebner
6/17/2010-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree with your decision not to use any commas in your comment.
Fire Mr. NJ!
Mr North Jersey
6/17/2010-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
But, but I can’t afford a proof reader Grave. Please, I promise to use Microsoft Word as my proof reader from now on just don’t fire me!
GravediggerHebner
6/17/2010-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
It didn’t require any commas. I just felt you should’ve written it so that it did. Thank you for obliging me with some commas in your reply, they are always appreciated by this, serial, comma, abuser.
oleosmirf
6/17/2010-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
if everyone came on blogs just to show how big of a cheerleader they are, it would be pointless. the point is to argue…
njstuckintx
6/17/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
Unless you go to http://www.procheerleaderblog.com! I haven’t tested that site nor am i going to. I’m just saying, is all.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/17/2010-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
The site looks good. Tested 6/17/10.
GravediggerHebner
6/17/2010-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
Seconded.
This reminds me that those NFL Network shows about cheerleaders making the squad are quite entertaining.
Where were we?
metsfan4decades
6/17/2010-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
Not to mention boring….
ceetar
6/17/2010-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
well, true, Omar and Jeff decided to keep Manuel, so theoretically we should live with that. He’s certainly not managing worse than he did last year or in 2008.
I don’t believe managers have a huge positive impact, but I do believe they can have a negative one.
I also believe that while Manuel knows more “baseball” than us, that’s a loaded term. We’re all capable of analyzing the results of any given situation. If we see Santana get pulled in the 8th inning two weeks in a row (and hear him say he could’ve kept pitching) and the Mets lose, it’s pretty easy to think that choosing to remove the best pitcher on the team cost the team a win or two. (And yes, you can never know what the other decision would’ve led to. But that’s life)
But I agree with you when we start talking about other stuff, like outfielder positioning, or batting practice drills or even how to set up a lineup. (although some of those are mind bogglingly weird)
Kingman 26
6/17/2010-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
But again, we have no idea of what the trainer is telling the staff about Santana when the cameras are off…we have no idea what Santana really feels like and what his between start sessions were like. Of course he will never say “Yeah, I agree with coming out after 93 pitches.”
But this is my point exactly–we have no clue how Santana’s health really is when the SNY cameras are off.
ceetar
6/17/2010-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
And I think there is more unknowns with coaches thant he manager, things like aches and pains and workouts.
and that’s why I only speculate what I gleen from reading and observing the off-field stuff with Manuel, but it’s on the on the camera quotes and game decisions that prompt me to want his head.