OK so lets cut to the chase according to Joseph DelGrippo a featured columnist for Bleacher Report he says
“Speaking with someone familiar with the situation (and verifying the initial conversation), the Twins traded for Cliff Lee last week, but the deal fell through. The primary player going to the Seattle Mariners, catcher Wilson Ramos , suffered a strained oblique during Saturday’s game. Ramos is expected to miss seven to ten days .”
He goes on to say once Ramos is cleared to play they will again make the trade. So the question is if true then do the Mets sweeten the pot for Lee or go elsewhere?
84 comments
njstuckintx
6/24/2010-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
I vote elsewhere!
metsfan4decades
6/24/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
Depends on what ‘sweeten’ the pot equates to.
I’m having a hard time wrapping my brain around why the Mets would have to give up established players and/or multiple ‘top’ prospects when neither Philly nor Seattle gave up the same for Lee – who had more time left on that rental deal than he does now…..
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
I would assume that including Mejia would be sweetening the pot.
I honestly think Omar is not offering Mejia but couple B-level prospects like Gee/Holt. But I think once Mejia gets involved, I’m sure the deal will get done.
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
Given their widely reported interest in Ramos, you’d think the M’s would at least give Thole a shot if included in a package from the Mets.
GravediggerHebner
6/24/2010-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
If the M’s widely reported coveting of a highly regarded close to the majors C prospect is true and if my very vague understanding that Ramos > Thole is true then I think the Mets will simply have to look elsewhere if the Twinkies are willing to part with Ramos, and given the presence of Mauer and their commitment to him Ramos would seemingly be available.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
Ramos is considered to be undoubtedly better than Thole…
as bad as I would like Lee, I cannot give up Pagan unless Beltran comes back and plays like he did before the injury…and that wont be known for probably 4-6 weeks at the minimum.
metsfan4decades
6/24/2010-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Agree, on both points.
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
Ramos is projected to be better but that doesn’t mean the Ms don’t like Thole as part of a package that should not include a regular from the current roster.
stickguy
6/24/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
elsewhere. It is hard to see it ending well if the only way you can get the player is to get into a bidding war, and blow the pending deal out of the water.
I would not mind the twins, since even if it happened today, the Mets would miss him! As long as he stays in the AL, I don’t care where he goes.
SO, move on to the other options.
either get the less “studly” guy (carmona/westbrook/guthrie/myers- Yeah, I know) for a reasonable cost, and/or play chicken with Houston.
Make Knog a happy boy, and trade some 2nd tier stuff for Oswalt and his contract. I really think the Astrons want to dump him at this point, and I cna’t see a very big market for him (due to back and contract).
Tejada/evans/gee? start there and tweak. They get a young MI that has proven he can hold his own in the majors. And some other filler parts that are ML projectable (one of whom was already there). Swap out stoner, and they all have ML service time!
and a deal of this sort, you could swap around a ton of other guys. By eating salary, it can’t cost too much (or Houston gets greedy, and holds onto him)
njstuckintx
6/24/2010-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
If the dominos start falling soon, it may be left with Houston, meet NY. NY, meet Houston.
stickguy
6/24/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
unless I am just forgetting someone, or a new name pops up (not formerly rumored), the only “big” name SPs even theoreticlaly available are Lee, Oswalt and Haren. And Haren is really only a maybe.
So, Lee is the lynchpin holding everything together. It seems that he has to be the first one to go. Then there will be a scramble for the leftovers.
And I really don’t see a lot of teams being in on Oswalt. Although that might depend on how much salary Houston wants to eat to get better prospects. I am guessing not a lot!
rustyjr
6/24/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
I like haren
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
I do to rusty I think playing half his games here in Citi as opposed to Chase Field has to help. Then with his strikeout to walk ratio which is 2nd best in the NL at 5.19-SO/BB with only Halladay being better with a 6.13-S0/BB.
His BAA is what concerns me I don’t understand if it has to do with Arizona or what. It is the highest it has been since his 1st year in baseball.
Haren is signed thru 2013 if you pickup option. He would be owed 41M over the next 3 years plus if you prorate this year that is another 4.1M for a total of 45.1M for a 29 year old starter.
GravediggerHebner
6/24/2010-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
If you subscribe to BABIP trends the high BAA Haren has is bad luck. His BABIP this year is .342, career is .303 and highest previous season was .317 in his rookie year.
Exactly how the highest swing percentage, highest outside-the-zone swing percentage and highest outside-the-zone contact percentage of his career relate to that I am not learned enough to say.
Dan Haren plate discipline stats
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
So how about it Grave, Oswalt or Haren?
GravediggerHebner
6/24/2010-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
I’m a big fan of Haren over Oswalt.
Haren turns 30 at the end of Sept, Oswalt 33 at the end of August;
Haren is signed cheaper annually and a year longer than Oswalt;
Both guys have been durable for 5-6 years except for Oswalt’s small hiccup last year & Haren has no back problems that I am aware of;
Haren is dreamy!
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
Haren = more prospects.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:56pm at 3:56 pm (UTC -4)
I like Grave over the other two.
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
Keep in mind we are talking about winning a ring.
I mean I get the sense sometimes that people are falling in love too much with prospects.
ceetar
6/24/2010-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
BABIP trends too closely to suckage for me to take serious, particularly for pitchers (although I guses I should look the numbers up)
but I think chances are if one of us pitched we’d have a crazy high BABIP.
njstuckintx
6/24/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
I guess that is what I was saying. With Lee gone, NY being able to absorb some salary, being in contention, etc… the pairing will look good. Just to sort out the players and money involved. And 5 minutes after I write this Oswalt will go to the Rangers, proving the abundance of knowledge in hold in my head!
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
no need to worry, we have two 15 game winners coming off the DL. There’s your help.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
ouch…
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
haha very funny
GravediggerHebner
6/24/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Zing!
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
I wonder if that package even gets you Westbrook let alone Oswalt.
Someone would come to the table for Oswalt if that’s all Houston has on the table.
stickguy
6/24/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
a bag of sunflower seeds gets you westbrook, if you take the rest of his salary.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
I was a big Westbrook guy
a few weeks ago
BUT having seen
2 of his last 3
starts….Well,
theres not much left in that arm.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
I am wary of Oswalt b/c he has only played for one team in his career and has been very wary of playing in big market cities.
just not sold on the fact he can handle NY…
stickguy
6/24/2010-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
I believe the whole handling NY thing is overblown.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
I think for younger players it has more effect than the older/vet players. I’m pretty sure Oswalt is comfortable with his stuff and his pitching, I don’t see NY having that much impact on his performace.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Totally agree!
This guys been around a long
time and wants
to win.
Besides, its not like he’d
be living in Mid-town.
I’D think someone with his
resume would welcome the chance to pitch
where it matters
most,in games that matter most.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
absolutely disagree…the media hype and pressure takes some getting used to and we need the incoming player whether its Lee or Oswalt or whomever to be great right from the start…
that said if we can get him with Tejada being the centerpiece i’ll do it…
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Who are guys who couldn’t handle NY?
I would bet most of those guys just got to a point in their career where they were done.
Rogers? Sucked in some other places too.
Vazquez? Proving that wrong right now.
Baerga and Alomar? Both proved to have just been finished.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Ed Whitson……..
Pretty much the end of my list.
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Whitson did manage to rebound afterward so he may be a good example. Though it wasn’t until his second full season out of NY…
njstuckintx
6/24/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Does Jeffries count?
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
its an adjustment period…Beltran struggled his first season, Bay is struggling. A-Rod struggled, Teixiera, Sabathia and Burnett struggled (well struggled first 1/3 of the season).
Considering Oswalt has repeatably been hesitant coming to big market clubs it is a concern of mine…
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:46pm at 3:46 pm (UTC -4)
Tex starts slow all the time. And he and his two first time NY teammates did just fine in their first season.
Bay is not struggling to the point of not being able to handle anything. He’s hitting .280 and getting on base decently. His adjustment may be to the park because his power is down. He handled the equivalent pressure of Boston just fine.
every player should struggle to 36 HR like ARod did his first year in NY.
Beltran did struggle his first year. But he’s sure been good ever since.
I don’t know whether that was a coincidence or not. He seemed just fine in the playoffs under pressure before that.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
but if you are making a deal for someone with the intent of them succeeding right away it is something you need to look into.
Sabathia and Burnett both struggled in their 1st 2 months as a Yankee, thats ok for a full season but if you are for them at the deadline the season is only for 2 months.
they cant afford to have an adjustment period…
metsfan4decades
6/24/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Matsui? Kent? Jeffries?
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
Was it NY for any of them?
Matsui and Jeffries were never really any good. And Jeffries was still just a pup.
Kent was also just getting started in his MLB career, playing on a bad team and being jerked around between positions.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
Kevin Brown? Chuck Knoblauch…and it happens in other sports as well.
as a knicks and rangers fan, i can name you all the star players that couldnt get it done here…
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-5:59pm at 5:59 pm (UTC -4)
Chuckie was on the wrong side of 30 when he was a yankee and still had numbers just about the same as his career averages: .272 .366 .402 v. .289 .378 .406.
He didn’t exactly rebound afterward in KC. He was just shot.
Kevin Brown was 39 when he came to NY and retired a year later.
youngvalerawest
6/24/2010-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
me too. not being able to handle is a result of sucking. if he doesn’t suck (and pitching in citi compared to houston should be a dream come true) he’ll handle NY just fine.
GravediggerHebner
6/24/2010-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Nice call on Citi vs. Minute Maid/Enron.
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t imagine the Mariners would want Pagan or F-Mart. They have Ichiro, Franklin a pretty decent rookie in Michael Saunders and Milton Bradley.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
Ahhhhhhh….Milton Bradley…
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
yup, $10.3M this year and $13.3M next.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
And such a positive influence on a
team…..
That Crazy, misunderstood
Milty!!!
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
Also, this is Cliff Lee:
86 2/3 innings pitched, 4 walks, 76 strikeouts.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
and you have to figure the defense behind him and the huge stadium play towards his advantage…
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
yes and no. It hasn’t helped Snell or Rowland-Smith.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
I think Oleo is talking about the Citifield and the Mets defense not Seattle’s.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
thank you
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
gotcha, but I wouldn’t expect a difference from Seattle since they have a big stadium and a good defense.
CaseStreet
6/24/2010-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
well, they were supposed to be good. not sure what happened
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
I’m almost wondering if something like this would work.
Oswalt has approximately $18-20M left on his contract and if the option needs to be picked up, it’ll be more like $36M next 2.5 years. One of the biggest reason the Mets are hesitant on Oswalt is his big contract.
What if Astros pick up half of his salary, so he would be owed $18M over 2.5 years by the Mets at most, but give up similar talent to get Lee. So we’re talking more like Mejia/Tejada/Evans/etc… for half of Oswalt’s salary and maybe a relief pitcher.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
Someone like Oswalt & Lindstrom.
stickguy
6/24/2010-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
with a guy like oswalt, it should always be a sliding scale. Money goes up, talent goes down.
And in theory, a “big market rich” team like the Mets should pick up the salary, and keep the prospects.
If the choice is mejia/tejada/evans for Osalt + 10mill.
OR
tejada/evans for Oswalt + a RP and no money.
What do you do? Effectively, how much are you willing to “sell” Mejia for, because that is what you would be doing.
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know what I would do. Obviously it’s not my money so I can say I’d go for the latter. But I believe the Mets FO feels Oswalt’s salary is too big to take and given that the Astros are willing to pony up some $$ for better talent, I don’t think it’s not a bad idea either.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-4:14pm at 4:14 pm (UTC -4)
i was actually thinking since we are a big market team and all that absorbing Oswalt’s contract would just replace the big FA Omar would sign in the offseason anyway.
i was thinking that since we have a terrible contract like Ollie we need to get rid of, we could include Ollie in the deal and instead of having the Astros pick up some of Oswalt’s contract, we would ask them to pick up part of Ollie’s contract (Lets say 3-4 mil of the remaining 16 million). Ollie would basically cost them the same as they would pick up for Oswalt but they get Ollie in hopes that a change of scenery could help…
Ollie, Tejada, Familia and a mid level prospect or 2 for Oswalt…
resignreyes11
6/24/2010-8:59pm at 8:59 pm (UTC -4)
nobody is taking Ollie and paying any part of his salary. nobody. It will never ever ever ever ever happen.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
I think all this hand-wringing over Oswalt’s health,contract and ability
to play in NYC is kinda funny,
when you consider a strong case can be made that the second he becomes
a Met, he might well be our best Pitcher…..And YES that includes
Johan.
stickguy
6/24/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
well, he has been better than Johan so far this year.
And if he comes cheap (players), then what the hell, it is only Fred’s money. Certainly does make a nice rotation with Johan, oswalt, Pelf, Neise and Dickey.
But please, anyone that says to get oswalt, please do not complaign in th eoff season when the Mets have no budget to spend on bringing in any other FAs.
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll have no complains!
A)We don’t know if we’d
be able to sign anyone
as good anyway….And
don’t mention Lee…
He’s signing for 5+yrs
somewhere and we know
it won’t be with the Mets.
B) If you get Oswalt,
we have a very, very
good chance to win the
NL…I’ll settle on no
big-FAs being signed
if that happens!
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
I never said I wouldnt want Oswalt just I wouldnt give up what i would for Lee b/c Lee has been great for 3 different teams and in the postseason.
njstuckintx
6/24/2010-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
The only FA they would need to bring in are bull pen people, no?
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
you dont have
to type like
this you know
fongy2
6/24/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Whatcha mean??
metsfan4decades
6/24/2010-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
I think everyone’s display is different – depending on what type device they’re using, what resolution they’re seeing, what web browser they’re using. I don’t think Fongy sees these screens and his comments the way we might be, hence the reason we’re seeing his response with just 3 words or so per line and he might not be….
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
Oh… I just thought that was his style…
DNDJohan aka kistics
6/24/2010-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
you are
mean
oleo
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
im sorry its just annoying trying to read…no reason to press enter after 4 word?
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
Bay is not really having a good month is he? I mean Barajas is having a worse month but overall I’d say Barajas has contributed more offensively so far this year than Bay.
Generated 6/24/2010.
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
It’s crazy to think how well the Mets have done with Barajas and Bay with a combined 6 rbi’s and 1/hr and hitting .246 and .174 in the month of June.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
well Barajas batted .226 last year and is a career .239 hitter. What we got from him in April and May was just a crazy unexpected hot streak.
Bay is on pace to hit 10 HR and 70 RBI which is completely unacceptable for him. Granted, expecting him to reproduce his numbers last season is unrealistic but 20 HR and 85 RBI should be the absolute minimum for someone like him
GravediggerHebner
6/24/2010-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t speak for anyone else but Barajas is giving the Mets exactly what I expected offensively, low BA/OBP & occasional clutch power (especially against the Phils).
Defensively and more so intangibly he’s been a pleasant surprise.
Bay has been an incredible disappointment offensively. I can’t really come up with an appropriate adjective to describe how poorly he’s done. But he somehow manages to keep up (at least a facade of) a good attitude and he keeps hustling, and his defense has been waaay better than all the fancy new ways of measuring it suggested it would be.
Despite the hustling and the defense Bay still rates as a disappointment and I think 1 thing that hasn’t been discussed much (at least not when I’ve been around) has been the idea that at least Bay will be moved down in the order when/if Beltran comes back, and at most he will lose some playing time that right now we’re assuming Pagan or Francoeur will lose.
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
I have been keeping a low profile on Bay because I really am hoping that he will turn it on similar to the way Delgado did after Willie was fired.
I agree though that he has been a huge disappointment so far offensively and all we can do is hope he can get hot and soon.
oleosmirf
6/24/2010-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
lots of people defend him b/c of his defense, hustle and OBP.
i’ll gladly drop his BA and OBP 20 points for an extra 8 HR and 20 RBI
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
White Sox just took 2-0 lead in bot8th a Konerko 2run hr.
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
Braves just lost 2-0.
A win 2nite and Mets will be in 1st place.
rustyjr
6/24/2010-4:29pm at 4:29 pm (UTC -4)
FiNgerz crossed !
Mr North Jersey
6/24/2010-4:56pm at 4:56 pm (UTC -4)
Guy just called Francesa asking what about Haren?
Francesa said he’d be a good pitcher just not sure if Arizona would trade him.