Jerry Manuel’s use of KRod Tuesday night was certainly questionable.
In an ideal world, players do whatever is necessary to stay in shape and be ready to perform at the highest level, regardless of the situation. Alas, 21st century pro sports is not an ideal world.
Francisco Rodriguez has never had a reputation of being particularly difficult, but he is a 28-year-old athlete making 10+ million a year, who clearly has a very definite idea of what he believes he needs to succeed. It has been said that he must have a lot of work to stay sharp, and after the 2nd half meltdown we saw last year, maybe Jerry must keep all of this in mind.
Surely he used KRod in the 8th in order to be certain to get him game action, as there was no guarantee that there would be a bottom of the 9th to use his closer in. Of course, after KRod did his job and kept the deficit where it was, the Mets tied the game in the top of the 9th. Having already also used Dessens and Parnell—apparently the other two of the four bullpen arms he trusts—Jerry was forced to use Pedro Feliciano in the bottom of the 9th against a tough right-handed batter in Dan Uggla. We all know how this turned out.
Is criticizing this when Jerry felt he had to use KRod (and we have to decide at some point if Feliciano can be used in any situation with confidence) just basking in the benefit of hindsight? Maybe. Is accepting the result just blindly supporting Jerry while the team has been doing well? Maybe.
As in most debates, reality probably lies somewhere in the middle.
————————————————
Never does one hear even Jerry’s most ardent supporters suggest that he is a master of strategy or that his strong suit is out-maneuvering the guy in the other dugout. His bullpen use is often—and often rightfully—questioned. But he has lessened his obsession with the sacrifice bunt as the offense has become more proficient and reliable, and he has finally largely stuck with a lineup strategy which makes sense, after a lot of debatable experimenting.
But his greatest strength seems to be motivational. Yes, this writer and others questioned this last year; but after nearly half of 2010, the dramatic improvement in many areas must at least be partly credited to Jerry.
In 2009, the team, from start to finish, was a mess. Bad fundamental play and mailing in games after falling behind happened from early in the year when the team was winning right through the injury-marred disaster of a second half. Young players like Murphy and Parnell were used inconsistently and possibly had their progress hindered. Overall, there was not much to like about the 2009 Mets, and putting the blame at Jerry’s door made sense to this writer and many others.
In 2010, we have largely seen the opposite of 2009. The fundamentals are simply night and day from last year. Baserunning, fielding, hitting intricacies like moving runners over, and many more areas have dramatically improved. The excessive bunting has largely subsided. Young players like Niese, Ike, and Tejada have been used wisely and given a chance to both shine and to gain confidence. And the team simply never stops hustling. How many multi-run deficits have we watched the Mets overcome? Did that happen even once last year?
Football and basketball seem like sports where a Pat Riley or a Bill Parcells can instantly improve a team’s fortunes with brilliant strategies as well as motivational tactics. Baseball is such an eternal season, and so few teams remain in serious contention the last 1-2 months that it is very different. Motivating players through the endless travel and marathon of a season might be a sorely underrated skill in baseball. What we have seen of the 2010 Mets, Tuesday night’s bullpen use notwithstanding, speaks well of Jerry’s ability to prepare and drive a team once he finally has some control over the roster and the staff.
————————————————
In any event, we can all agree that Jerry is not perfect. But the team is playing significantly better than it did last year, is playing smarter, never stops hustling, never gives up, and seems to be developing the camaraderie which some great teams have. The Mets play with an excellent mix of veterans of various vintage, young players, and rookies, all of whom appear to truly like each other. Teams don’t have to like each other to win, as a look at the 1970s A’s or Yankees instantly shows. But sometimes teams DO like each other while on the path to winning. The 1969 Mets appeared to be a brotherhood which still really likes and respects each other, and despite the occasional Strawberry-flavored issues, the 1986 Mets were clearly a group which fought to support each other (on and off the field), had each others’ backs, went to war together, got drunk together, and also embodied lots of other classic sports clichés.
It says here that Jerry, while continuing to mystify educated fans with his bullpen decisions, simply must be given a serious share of the credit for the dramatic improvement in fundamental play, hustle, attitude, and never-say-die spirit. Maybe 2009 was the last residue of the flawed Willie Randolph years, and it took Jerry this long to put his stamp on the team. It sure looks that way right now.
Jerry Manuel will most definitely never be a master strategist. But he has the players believing in themselves and each other. He has them constantly hustling. He has them hitting the cutoff man and moving runners over. He has them fighting until the last out. He has them gelling into a serious, loose, jovial unit. All of this must somehow compensate for some of the in-game tactical brilliance he lacks.
Will the Mets win more games due to Jerry’s overall leadership than they will lose due to his in-game decisions? A question for the ages.
Maybe our esteemed Mr. North Jersey said it best when he opined that Jerry is neither as good as some of us may think, nor as bad as his detractors claim. As is often the case, after thinking about it, Mr. N. is probably right.
49 comments
njstuckintx
7/1/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
When does Jerry’s contract run out?
And to sum up jerry, you take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of jerry.
fongy2
7/1/2010-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Good job Brock!
You know how I feel about
this “Debate”, There are a handful of Mgrs which really
make a diff, Scioscia,Leyland,
LaRussa and a few others.
Almost all the rest you can
mix and match and get similar
results. Most of that has to do with personality not strategy. then there are the
Joe Fraziers, Stump Merrills
and Art Howes of the baseball
world who fail both in dealing with the players,running the clubhouse
AND strategy on the field.
ceetar
7/1/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
I’ll agree with one thing, Jerry Manuel’s poor leadership of game and clubhouse last year helped them this year. one of those “Until you lose everything” type situations. Guys like Wright realized they needed to buckle down and grind it out. Guys like Reyes and Pagan are just greatful to be on the field, and want to do everything in their power to keep doing it at a successful and competant level.
That looseness is what’s keeping them from making a lot of what were mental errors last year. It has their head in the game. And Manuel no longer surprises them with his lame=brained ideas or criticisms. They’re capable of ignoring his flaws and making up for it where needs be.
the real issue is that Manuel is a pathetically hopeless 1-run/closegame manager. I fear for this in the playoffs. It’s part of the reason he’s so bad on the road. He stated the other day that on the road you have to use your 8th inning guy in the important situations instead of your closer. He then said he thinks the 8th inning guy is something this team is sorely missing. So basically, he’s not using his closer in the tight spots on the road, and he thinks there is a big drop off to the guy he _is_ trusting. stubbornly failing to give his team the best chance to win.
trs86
7/1/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Uh so then why criticized when he DID use his closer in a tight spot on the road?
ceetar
7/1/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
well, the idea is that it _wasn’t_ a tight spot because they were losing. (and he was operating under the assumption that they were going to lose) and he didn’t double switch. (I don’t remember the exact situation in terms of who was available if this was a possobility)
It also speaks to the small-run mindedness of Manuel in my opinion. By saying you’d rather use your lesser reliever (speaking to the tie game here more than the specific instance the other day) than your closer in the top of the 9th or 10th is adhering to the idea of stats and getting your closer a save, but it’s also suggesting that your team will not score 4 or more in the top of the inning. (which is less likely when you’re going to bunt guys over and play for that one run lead. I guess in that regard the two trains of thought are at least consistant)
But stats will suggest that you have a better chance of winning a game if you’re up 1 going to the bottom of the 10th than you do going to it tied. So pitching your best reliever in the harder situation makes sense.
trs86
7/1/2010-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
Uh….
All that for what I ask?
They were down 2 in the bottom of the 8th. PERHAPS Jerry thought they were in it and wanted to make sure they did not score another run, thus giving the Mets a chance. PERHAPS he thought there was no reason to save Krod for the bottom of the 9th because if they did not hold there it would not matter? Nah…. Jerry sucks.
Again, as I have said over and over most of these decisions are in a gray area that could go either way. If you want to use them against him because they did not work fine.
fongy2
7/1/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Again, as I said all of last year, Jerry had serious problems in meshing the players he had available,
Kids, AAAA guys and journeymen
with the Stars of the team
who hold all the power in the
clubhouse YET were unavailable
most of the time to play.
fongy2
7/1/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
PLAYOFFS??!!!….PLAYOFFS?!
….Playoffs???!!!……
Playoffs??!!….playoffs????
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Hearty discussions about what player should play and what player shouldn’t and why are one thing – there are many statistics, some rather recently invented and still evolving, that someone can point to to suggest that, hypothetically, the Mets should be playing Henry Blanco more and by extension Rod Barajas less.
I recently had a very brief (140 characters at a time) discussion about that exact topic. I was told that based on certain statistics the Mets should play Blanco more, so I investigated and found that recently Blanco had in fact been playing more and that the Mets had a .500 record in the games he started.
Then I was told the team’s record was irrelevant. So that’s the beauty of arguing over 1 player or another based on statistics – they are apparently right even when they show no tangible result, at least to some people.
But with managers there are no statistics that focus on specific aspects of their performance, there is only the very general be-all end-all of team wins and losses. If there are manager metrics out there that show the WAR or wOBA or whatever of asking the 2nd batter in the order to bunt in the 1st inning after the 1st batter reaches 1st base I haven’t seen them and I respectfully ask someone to point me to them.
Meanwhile in the absence of them I think it’s fair to say that those of us who argue passionately and vigorously about individual managerial moves or decisions have even less to go on than those of us who argue about players. Given that, I find it hard to get too worked up about a particular manager one way or the other. I just want to see more wins than losses, ideally lots more wins. And with the exception of the historical injuries of the 2009 season what I see from Jerry Manuel and the Mets is a team that is 27 games over .500 at 99-72. Even if I include 2009 I see from Jerry Manuel 5 games over at 169-164.
In other words I see more wins than losses from this team under this manager and in the absence of more concrete methods to break down his performance that go great lengths to eliminate pure subjectivity I’m pretty content with this manager.
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Damn I am glad you are around this place.
gategem
7/1/2010-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
Art Howe’s A’s won 102 games in 2001 and 103 games in 2002. Therefore Art Howe must be a brilliant manager.
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
Not at all GG not at all.
My point is what can you or I or anyone else point to that specifically shows in an objective way that any individual move made by any manager in any game is “the right or wrong move.” That’s all, I’m simply saying it’s very subjective.
I am unaware of any metric regarding “using the closer on the road in the 8th down by 2 runs” to show me that Jerry’s either a genius or a buffoon for doing it.
There are plenty of stats that geniuses and buffoons can point to that at least lean toward objectivity regarding players as in my example above when an expert in the field informed me that Blanco should play more than Barajas, at least he had a reasonably objective tangible thing that exists to support his claim – what are those stats for managers, that’s my question?
Until I learn about those stats I just see a lot of subjective emotion in managerial move discussions and when it’s that subjective I find it hard to draw any firm conclusions.
I always appreciate your input and if you can enlighten me as to more objective ways to analyze managerial moves I will gladly study it.
fongy2
7/1/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
This team has very little room for error and MUST get 3 of 4 this
weekend from The Nats. I get to see
this Nat team nightly down here on MASN and I’ll tell ya since Strasburg’s arrival they have played amazingly sloppy baseball.
Hopefully we’ll have Jose and Pagan in the line-up because with this Nat team,pressure….especially on the
basepaths kills them. Their OFs,especially Morgan constantly throw to the wrong bases, their infielders,including Zimmerman are
sloppy on routine plays and have made a habit of throwing balls all
over the place on plays they have to rush on. Plus, their Pitchers don’t
pick-up their fielders after errors
AND their Pen has been falling apart
the past few weeks. So…No B.S., Lets get at least 3 here and move on!
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Sounds good and thanks for the above comment!
Will be out of town till Tuesday, so if I don’t respond to something, it’s only because I will be too busy in Vegas to be at a computer much! But I will surely be blearily catching some Metsy action!
Have a great holiday weekend my friend!
fongy2
7/1/2010-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
You too my friend!
Stay away from the roulette tables!….
You could end up hitchhiking home…..
Without any shoes!
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
HA! Craps and sports betting my friend—the only things with a fair shot at winning!
Of course, I always win at the pools and the clubs…..
fongy2
7/1/2010-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
True Dat!…
And good for you!…
Be safe
fellow fanatico!
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Peter Gammons claims Utley needs thumb surgery.
ceetar
7/1/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
I doubt he’d be willing to do so anywhere but Beirut.
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Well played
stickguy
7/1/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
and for all the Met medical staff haters, guess where Utley went for his 2nd opionion?
Yup, the met team physician, Dr. Altchek!
fongy2
7/1/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Too bad….So sad….
njstuckintx
7/1/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Where’s prismo been with the weather updates? are we going to get all 4 games in with no rain delays? These rain delayed games seem to kill the mets more than the other team.
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
He’s on vacation, largely away from computers, til 7/10.
njstuckintx
7/1/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
unacceptable!
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t tell him I told you so or he’ll have my legs broken but you can get pretty specific game related weather stuff here. Not as good as Prismo’s with the live radar but useful.
njstuckintx
7/1/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Your secret is safe with me! (Psst, hey prismo…) :O
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!!
CaseStreet
7/1/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
guys, make sure you get a read of Toby Hyde’s article on why he would trade Flores for Lee. He really does an excellent job.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/1/2010-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
I actually did not have a problem with using KRod in the 8th inning (on Tues night game). And say if KRod wasn’t used in the 8th, it’s not like he’ll come out and pitch the 9th in a tied game either.
Mr North Jersey
7/1/2010-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Jerry talk again?
A debate that gets nowhere every time it is brought up which seems often as of late. Was there anything good that came from talking about Jerry this time around?
Sorry I am just not feeling this today.
Any word on Reyes?
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/1/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Word on Reyes is that Jerry will go gangsta on him…
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
That’s what I get for throwing you a compliment!
Sometime you can be wise, and sometimes you can be the world champ of hypocrisy.
Mr North Jersey
7/1/2010-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
King you see it’s statements like that that doesn’t help you make your point.
Rather than saying I am the “world champ of hypocrisy.” Why not just say why you feel i am a hypocrite also while your at it. That way your insult has some teeth to it.
You have a very bad way of expressing your thoughts at times in my opinion and by now I understand that you just can’t help yourself you are what you are.
But if you truly feel my comment was hypocritical then at least give me the courtesy of telling me why rather than just throwing out such a blanket statement with no reason as to why.
I mean I can call you names and insult you also but you don’t see me doing so do you?
Anyways at least even you admit it is too much Jerry talk when you offer a title of “A last (I promise!) look at the Jerry Manuel debate”.
So I don’t see why you getting so defensive?
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
Recently you mocked a post of mine based on its length.
Today it’s “Jerry talk again?
A debate that gets nowhere.”
From someone who often puts himself off as the voice of reason, and defends everyone’s right to their opinion, this seems a tad hypocritcal.
If you don’t like the topic or length of a piece, move on to the next one!
Should I get your approval on the length and topics of my pieces before posting?
And have a great holiday weekend, as I said before when trying to be polite and considerate!
stickguy
7/1/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
Have fun in Vegas. SOunds like you could use a rest right about now.
Oh, just stay off the roof.
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks, I definitely will!
And Stick, if you meet me this August you will see that what one may come off as sometimes on the internet is very close to the opposite of real life. I am about the least angry person you will meet and spend most of my time laughing and making others laugh.
Commenting here brings the worst out of me, no doubt.
If I can just learn to pass over things and roll my eyes and move on, the world would be a better place.
Mr North Jersey
7/1/2010-4:48pm at 4:48 pm (UTC -4)
Wow! All that from a remark of,
“Jerry talk again? A debate that gets nowhere every time it is brought up which seems often as of late. Was there anything good that came from talking about Jerry this time around? Sorry I am just not feeling this today.”
A comment that was reinforced by you yourself Kingy but yet somehow I said something that was uncalled for.
Must be backwards day or something.
King enjoy your holiday if anyone needs to get away it is you. When you get back I am sure you will be the same usual self. I know there are many people here that will remain nameless so as to spare dragging their names into this lunacy that I and many others disagree with at times as do they with many others but you will never find the rudeness or disrespect in those disagreements that can be found with many of yours. You know why? It’s because it’s ok to disagree and we know that and we know we do not need to insult people cause of it.
You have said that commenting here brings the worst out of you. Those are your words. You should deal with why that is so and take care of that. Cause your comments continue to only hurt you in the long run.
Have a nice Holiday King I hope you get some help. Cause when you are not rude you can make some well thought out articulate points.
To everyone else I apologize for wasting your time having to read such off topic B.S.
trs86
7/1/2010-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
Eh to hell with both of ya…
LOL
I would hate to have seen this place last year when we sucked. Oh yeah. I was here when we sucked. Now the only thing good either of you reminded me of is the fact that we don’t suck anymore. Good job guys.
Mr North Jersey
7/1/2010-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
Whatever does it for you.
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
You hope I get some help?
LOL!
Always blameless and always right Mr N.
This started with you whining about my piece IN WHICH I paid you a big compliment.
Mr North Jersey
7/1/2010-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
-sigh
ceetar
7/1/2010-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
They’re talking about altering the way he runs.
DNDJohan aka kistics
7/1/2010-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
and perhaps move him to play 2B?
GravediggerHebner
7/1/2010-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
I haven’t heard anything about Reyes except people reacting today to last night’s late reports that “it wasn’t his back it was his oblique – who is lying to us?”
ceetar
7/1/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
That’s because he felt it swinging (oblique ‘rotates the torso’ according to wiki), and said “It’s more my side than my back”. something out of nothing, geeze. It’s not a real big deal, because he didn’t even feel enough pain to even say he couldn’t play. he wanted to play. They didn’t do tests to find a strain, it’s all off a handful of quotes from Reyes. mincing words..don’t we have better things to do? I mean, we may miss a labron rumor..
stickguy
7/1/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
another Jerry post? Man Knog, you like to go for the pain dude.
So, my random thoughts:
- To a large extent, the way you described Jerry (strengths/weaknesses), you make him sound like a great choice for a coach, and a lousy choice for a manager. Something I will agree with!
- As Ceetar noted, his strategic shortcomings really rear their ugly head in close/late games, and more so on the road. ANd that does scare me if they make the playoffs. SOme guys manager better in that situation, others flame out. ANd I don’t trust Jerry in a big spot.
- But, we are stuck with him for the rest of th eyear at this point. I hope he rises to the opportunity, and the team manages to overcome him!
- someone asked about his contract. it runs out this year, but there is a team option. I hope that they just cut ties and move on. But, if they team makes the playoffs, sadly I think he wil be back (unless he makes so many bonehead moves the national audience laughs it’s head off at him!). But, at least they have the option of a 1 year extension, but either go all in or cut and run. No more lame ducks please
- finally, how do you rate a good vs. bad manager? Can’t jsut use wins, since they have to be evaluated vs. expectations. So, go with the old standbye. A bad manager is like porno. You know it when you see it.
Kingman 26
7/1/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
“A bad manager is like porno. You know it when you see it.”
HAHA!!
You and Ceetar do make good points.
I just posted this as I felt I would take one last shot at enunciating my point of view, while doing a better job of acknowledging the very valid other side of the argument. I shall leave this topic here.
And Stick, as I told Fong and Rusty, I will be away till Tuesday, so please don’t think I am ignoring any of your extremely welcomed witty repartee which may come my way!
Have a great holiday weekend sir!
stickguy
7/1/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
you too. I will be gone saturday -monday, and I expect it will be pretty slow around here overall.