"I just want to win."
Yesterday 9-time gold glove center fielder Torii Hunter of the Los Angeles Angels moved to right field. Speedy minor league center fielder Peter Bourjos was called to the majors and Hunter acknowledged that the Angels outfield defense has been a “big problem.” [Source: USA Today] In last night’s game, a 6-3 Angels loss to the Baltimore Orioles, Hunter recorded an outfield assist throwing out Matt Wieters at the plate. [Source: ESPN]
“I can sit here and say, ‘I want 10 Gold Gloves and center field is my position,’ ” Hunter said before the Angels’ 6-3 loss to the Baltimore Orioles at Camden Yards. “Sometimes you have to slap pride in the face and all that individual stuff, Gold Gloves … that’s nothing. All I care about is winning, man. I need a ring. I’ve been to the playoffs seven times and haven’t won anything.” [Source: LA Times]
Hunter’s 2010 UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) of minus 3.7 places him 16th of 21 center fielders who qualify in terms of innings played. He also ranks 16th of 21 qualifiers with a minus 2.5 in RngR (Range Runs). These are not career lows by any means but they do reflect a drop off in his performance from 2009 as compared to his peers. [Source: Fangraphs]
Being a Mets blog you’re probably wondering why I’m going on about the Angels and Torii Hunter. Well here’s the nifty tie-in. Carlos Beltran is a 3-time gold glove winning center fielder playing for the New York Mets. He missed 81 games last season due to a knee problem for which he then had surgery which caused him to miss 88 games this season. He currently wears a rather large brace on his knee when he plays.
Beltran has hardly played enough games to qualify for statistical comparisons to his fellow center fielders but even in a small sample the numbers may tell us something. His 2010 UZR is minus 2.3 which is actually an improvement over 2009 but for the 2nd consecutive year is a negative number which is something Beltran has earned only 3 times in his career. Similarly his RngR of minus 2.4 is an improvement over last year which was also negative but stands out compared to 2006-2008 which were all positive numbers. [Source: Fangraphs]
Consider that information, along with what you’ve observed of Beltran’s performance subjectively with your own eyes, then ponder this: Angel Pagan currently ranks 3rd of 21 qualifying center fielders in UZR with a plus 7.5 and and 6th out of 21 in RngR with a plus 3.5. [Source: Fangraphs]
Torii Hunter set personal goals aside and moved to right field for the good of his team. It’s time for Carlos Beltran to do that too.
Hey Jerry, see that guy next to you? He needs to be in CF.
128 comments
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with you’ve above synopsis. That said, moving a veteran of Beltran’s stature to a new position is most likely not in Manuals book (which is a 4 chapter book consisting of Bunting, the doghouse, bullpen management or lack there of and media relations).
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
I haven’t seen anything in the media regarding whether there has been any discussion within the team on this topic or not.
It is certainly easy to imagine that the culprit in the non-move is more Manuel than it is Beltran. Manuel is no Mike Scioscia. But Beltran could easily pursue such a move if he A). ever thought of it; B). after thinking of it thought it was the right thing to do.
Considering the reporting on how much time Beltran spent with Pagan to help him improve his overall game one would think Beltran may have noticed at some point which one of them is playing a better center field.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA on the Manuel Manual!
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
There was a bad movie about russian baseball that had something about that. Let me consult Manual, and the US coach thought the russian guy was talking about some cuban advisor, not some actual book. sorry, the pb&j is going to my brain, i think.
gonzowill
8/4/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed 100%. There are two things I think the Mets mishandled with Beltran. 1. Making him play center field when Pagan is much faster and 2. Batting him in the clean up spot for the first 10 games after the all-star break. Beltran is NOT the same Beltan of 2008. Why treat him as such now. Maybe with a good winter and spring training, he will return to form, but right now. Pagan should be in Center and Beltran shouldn’t even smell the clean-up spot.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
the thing is though, I dont think Jerry even bothered to ask Beltran to move to RF. Either Jerry believes Beltran in CF and Pagan in RF is the better choice or he feels Beltran would not take it well.
either way Pagan should play CF everyday next season…
metsfan4decades
8/4/2010-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Last night SNY booth made a comment that Pagan is actually more comfortable playing in CF than the corner OF positions.
Thing is….I don’t know if Beltran has EVER played the corner OF in his career but I know he’s not done it in Citi field. I’m not opposed to the idea but sticking him in RF now, with the fading hopes of a post season spot ahead of us, fleeting though it is…doesn’t seem like a good idea. Might have to do it out of necessity though…and I guess we all just cross our fingers hoping for the best.
They had to know with that chronic knee problem and playing with that brace, CF might become a problem very fast. Why didn’t they try him in RF when he was playing minor league games? Why aren’t the Mets ever PRO-active instead of RE-active?????
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
well moving him to RF during a playoff race and while your managing career is on the line is a tough sell…
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
If doing the right thing that is for the betterment of your team is too tough to sell precisely when you’re in a playoff race and fighting for your managerial career this team is even more doomed than I previously thought.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
well Beltran can’t be expected to just go to RF and be perfectly comfortable…plus we all know Beltran is a very proud/selfish guy and it might do more harm than good…
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
Two very important points you make there.
To your second point I don’t know the man but yes I think it’s fair to say that he’s portrayed that way. That’s exactly what struck me about Torii Hunter’s remarks, how he noted “you have to slap pride in the face,” that showed me that it wasn’t an easy decision for him but he made it because he knew it was the right decision.
As to your first point I completely agree and don’t expect Beltran to be comfortable in RF immediately. But I think there is a reason that it’s a baseball cliche about “strong defense up the middle” and I think it’s more important for the Mets to be solid in CF than it is in RF.
This is compounded by Pagan’s admitted discomfort in the corners. So currently the team has two awkward uncomfortable outfielders in CF and RF (not even taking into account whoever might be in LF and taking the long view that Bay will be back and in LF regularly). Wouldn’t it behoove them to have at least one capable comfortable OF out there, one in the most important OF position, which they can do by putting Pagan in CF?
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
And you’re asking for another Cameron/Beltran head collission. Would be tough to defer the quarterbacking of CF to Pagan. The student has become the teacher kind of thing. Pagan, I am your father!
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Sort of pertinent here. You think with Pagan, Bay and Beltran entrenched in the OF for the next year and a couple few OF prospects in the works, we could parlay some of those to the Rays for Shields or Garza (MLBTR got me thinking). They are losing Crawford and do have a surplus of pitching. I doubt something would come of it, but knowing the surplus of OF prospects, the lack of Pitching overall, the previous post about Beltran not being able to be moved and the cheap model that the Rays work in, you never know.
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
That strikes me as precisely the kind of move the Rays would make but not something the Mets would be involved in at least not this current administration.
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Which saddens me like a child dropping their ice cream cone.
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
5-second rule.
Or as I type this, 10 minute rule.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think you can trade Pagan at this point. Beltran has more year left and after that we need a CF. Pagan has to be here.
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
I was more thinking Fmart + multiple others for Garza.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
unfortunately I dont see how we could get him without trading Mejia or Niese…
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
I’d trade Mejia for Garza. I may be in the minority on that, but I’d definitely do it for a couple years of Garza or Shields. Not for Niese though.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
well i would 100% package Mejia in a deal for Garza but its not going to happen. Id be shocked to see the Mets trade any big name prospect in the next calender year…
trs86
8/4/2010-8:52pm at 8:52 pm (UTC -4)
Couldn’t happen until off-season. How would Garza make it through waivers?
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-9:51pm at 9:51 pm (UTC -4)
Correct, we’re talking offseason.
ceetar
8/4/2010-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
I could do without additional propaganda for #blamebeltran.
I’m not convinced Beltran is downgrade from Pagan.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
a visit to the eye doctor might fix that…
ceetar
8/4/2010-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
yes, because we all know how accurate “he looks slower” is over a small sample size.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
Angel Pagan has been one of the best defensive CF in the game this season. Noone is saying Beltran is horrible out there but its pretty obvious Beltran has lost a few steps and at his age he wont be his old self again…
ceetar
8/4/2010-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
no, it’s not pretty obvious.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar, you think Castillo and Ollie are soon to return to their forms of several years ago.
You think we will go 6-0 on this trip.
You are a serious fan and a smart guy, but being grounded in objective reality is not your forte.
ceetar
8/4/2010-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
you misread my points all the time.
and I was tongue incheek about the 6-0 thing. I don’t really get into specifics of small sets of games. they’re mostly worthless, such is the nature of baseball. bad teams beat good teams, good teams slump and lose 6 of 7, bad teams surge and win 15/20. That’s why they play 162, and why sometimes the best teams don’t win in the playoffs. 7 games is just too small a sample size.
Castillo will get on base more than he is now. There is very little evidence supporting a decline to what he’s batting now. will he stay healthy? that’s a different question, but i can’t help but assume players who are healthy will stay that way for the foreseeable future.
i thought Ollie, off an injury, would return to the form he was in before that injury. I don’t think that’s a stretch, and I don’t think 8 starts was enough to truly decide. Doesn’t mean I think he should be on the team now, or that he was handled fairly or correctly.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
OK, but I would respectfully disagree about Slappy and Ollie.
I think watching everything about Castillo–his now virtually non-existent range, his ball handling around the bag, his swing, and his mannerisms–show that the long-awaited decline Stick (where the hell IS Stick??) has been predicting is in fact here.
As for Ollie, he was throwing 89 earlier in the year, now he is throwing 86. He is not useful unless he is hitting the low 90s regularly. That seems as though it is over.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
I think what Beltran returns remains to be seen.
Obviously at the moment no one can argue with the notion that Pagan is the better of the two but next year at this time we may be saying the complete opposite.
It is unfair to judge Beltran on just 61 at bats.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:02pm at 2:02 pm (UTC -4)
Generated 8/4/2010.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
i’m talking about strictly defense here. Pagan is clearly the better option in CF going forward.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
same rules apply
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-2:59pm at 2:59 pm (UTC -4)
i don’t believe Beltran’s knees will get much better and that he is on the decline. A declining beltran is still an above average player but his days of being a GG CF and 30+ HR hitter are behind him.
Next season I would think he bats .280 15-20 HR and 75-80 RBI if he manages to play a full season and i’ll take that.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
I have found from years of experience that the hardest thing to do in baseball is guess what a player will do the following season. It is something that time and time again I have found myself being wrong about. If you have had better success at that then I will just have to take your word for it and will look forward if I even remember this to seeing how close you come to your predictions.
tkfj2
8/4/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
I guess this sentence was ignored?
“Angel Pagan currently ranks 3rd of 21 qualifying center fielders in UZR with a plus 7.5 and and 6th out of 21 in RngR with a plus 3.5.”
Beltran coming off injury, Pagan healthy. Adv Pagan
I’m not saying Pagan is the better player, but right now he is the better defender in CF. If we want a superior OF, Beltran to a corner makes sense.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
I think Pagan being the better cf currently is true.
The question is are the Mets better with Beltran in CF and Pagan in Right or the other way around?
ceetar
8/4/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
UZR and RngR are nearly worthless. They just have so many flaws and inconsistencies.
Yes, Angel Pagan is good. Maybe he’s even just as good as Carlos on a regular day. But that doesn’t mean he deserves the position over it. We didn’t give SS to Tejada and ease in Reyes by playing second did we?
A couple of “he should’ve gotten that” assumptions about fly balls and what not are not enough to play guys out of position.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree with you in regards to Tejada and Reyes but when Reyes came back Tejada was not nowhere near having as good as a year as Pagan had so I don’t see why someone would openly ask for Tejada to play SS over Reyes.
I think what you need to ask is the following, right now who is the better cf Pagan or Beltran?
It is ok to admit that Pagan is the better defensive CF. Doing so doesnt mean he should play CF.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
the difference is Jose doesn’t have chronic bad knees like Beltran does. Beltran will never return to his GG days. He hasn’t been like that since 07/08.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
AROD’s 600 HR.
http://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/2010/08/04/mlbtv_tornya_10594253_800K.mp4
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
nobody cares… ;p
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
Totally agree. The Mets need to preserve carlos as much as possible because the reality is he has an injury that he is still not 100% recovered from. Until that time(most likely next year) we must find a way to put angel out there as he has played a very good CF in trons absence. The kid has earned the right to play in CF and having beltran there right now hurts the team while hurting himself. I know Beltran doesnt like playing the corners after the mike cameron collision in 05 but he has got to get over that. Gotta do what tori did…play for the name in the front of the jersey, not the name behind it.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
“play for the name in the front of the jersey, not the name behind it”
Isn’t that Ollie’s mantra?
ceetar
8/4/2010-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
And that’s what he’s doing. There isn’t any evidence that Beltran is hurting the team, and while he’s more of a leader on this team than Manuel, that doesn’t mean he should somehow evaluate himself as less than Pagan defensively (I think Beltran has the better arm, for example. Experience plays in as well) and suggest to Manuel that maybe he should move. Especially right now as Bay is out so there would be a flipflopping between left and right of which Pagan is best suited for.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
Beltran is a notoriously selfish player. Back when we didnt have bad knees he didnt like to steal that many bases b/c he wants to keep the record as highest SB% in MLB history…
He is not going to switch positions for the good of the team. Noone is saying Beltran is hurting the team but Pagan is the better CF going forward and I want the guy with better range in CF…
ceetar
8/4/2010-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
hahahahaha…
okay, i’m done with this discussion then.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
being selfish doesnt mean being a bad teammate or a bad locker room guy but he is not going to give up CF on his own, nor would be all happy faces if he was moved to CF.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
I think you do yourself a disservice when you speculate into knowing the reasoning behind why said player doesn’t steal a base.
Now if you can quote where he said that to be the case that would make a more compelling argument on your part.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
+ Infinity.
metsfan4decades
8/4/2010-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
What??
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
I would conceed that beltran has the better arm but im convinced angel covers more ground now that beltran is playing with a brace. I just think with all the running involved playing CF will take its toll on an injury that has not healed yet and wont until he gives it rest. Im agreeing with the point more so to preserve beltran over the rest of the year than anything. Since we dont have the DH over here, LF would involve the least of the running out of the OF positions and I think thats the best place to put him for this season at least until he is back to 100%. He has played RF before so when bay comes back, he wont be totally unfamiliar with RF.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
i would leave it alone for this season but in ST Beltran should move permanently to RF…
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
If he is fully healthy going into ST next year, I dont see a problem with him moving to CF…if anything it helps his trade value. Im just thinking this guy is wearing a brace just to PLAY this season…that means to me he isnt 100% and therfore we should try to do everything possible to mitigate the workload on an injured knee. I would consider moving him just this season and hope he comes to ST next year 100% ready to go.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
Assuming Beltran struggles which at this time you are just hypothesizing that he will.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
its not that he is struggling, its more that Pagan is one of the better defensive CF in the game…
Beltran is injury prone and on the decline and moving him to RF should be better for his health…
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
again you keep talking about things you have no way on knowing if that will be the case.
You would be better of saying that in your opinion you feel this is what will most likely to happen but if not then yes a healthy Beltran is better than a Pagan.
People are on the Pagan bandwagon big time and I can understand why but I caution you to keep an open mind as to expecting Pagan to continue to play this well in 2011.
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
Im pretty sure nobody expects pagan to do what he did this year going forward but the reality is beltran may not get his contract extended or resigned in 2012 so that leaves us with one of two options
1) trade him next year at the deadline for major prospects
2) offer arb in 2012 and get the picks
This is of course assuming he is healthy in 2011 and plays like we know he can because of his walk year. I think Beltran is no longer the long term solution in CF that he once was and with teh way Pagan has played this year, you gotta believe he is the best canidate to fill the spot until guys like fmart or kirk get more established.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
offensively i wouldn’t be surprised if this is a career year for Pagan but defensively i don’t see how all of a sudden he wont be a great defensive CF…
In my opinion, i don’t see Beltran being a #3 or 4 hitter anymore…
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
I will be curious the day after the season ends what this organization does to address the concerns of this team.
This season other than a 32 game stretch from May 22 to Jun 27 where they went 23-9 this has been a bad season.
I don’t know what will happen but clearly changes will be made. How drastic remains to be seen.
fongy2
8/4/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
I’m done with the with the Beltran era. Six yrs in and 100Million paid
for Three great Allstar seasons,although in Two of them not
enough of an Allstar to carry this
team out of two All-time collapses,
One awful season AND Two injury filled
where he misses Two-Thirds of the yr.
The guy also has shown almost no leadership and very little interest
in being the leader.
If I had my wish, the FO would make it clear there won’t be any extention
and that 2011 will be his last here.
I’d see if he was O.K. w/the Mets
trying to move him in the off-season
And then I’d go hard after Carl Crawford who is the perfect Citifield
player and fit for the Mets going foward.Then you no longer have this
problem with a Crawford/Pagan/Bay outfield.
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
only problem fong is he has only played 53 games in CF and the rest have all been in LF, he has never played in RF. Since Jason Bay plays LF(and has similar lack of experiance playing anywhere else like crawford) already, carl is a no go cause he cant play anywhere else. I agree that the beltran era is coming to a close in 2011…now we gotta hope that the mets are savvy enough to capitolize on it.
fongy2
8/4/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
I meant simply moving Bay to RF.
And on the this topic
someones gonna have to
show me examples of guys who’ve played CF
all their lives who
suddenly were terrible
moving to LF or RF.
At the same time, I’d
like to know the examples of guys who
couldn’t transition from LF to RF….OR for
that matter RF to LF.
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
bay has never played RF in his life…
I think just like any player, it will take alot of time to adjust…alot of which would be at the teams defense’s expense. Why dont we just sign a RF instead or leave pagan for RF as he already has had some experiance playing there this season and has not looked that bad.
fongy2
8/4/2010-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
Because no other OFer is as good or as perfect a fit for the NY Mets.
And like I said,as a serious fan for almost 4 decades,I can’t think of one player who was a solid corner OFer and moved to the other corner and suddenly wasn’t very good at catching flyballs.
youngvalerawest
8/4/2010-6:54pm at 6:54 pm (UTC -4)
Dave Winfield was a superior athlete and defender. But he was superior in both LF and RF.
In general, I think a corner outfielder is a corner outfielder whether they are as good as Dave Winfield or not.
Interestingly, I think Pagan was better last season in the corners than in CF. But it is clear to this Mets fan, who was no fan of Pagan coming into this season, that he is playing a better CF than Beltran has in a couple of years despite what I think it is a below average arm.
trs86
8/4/2010-8:58pm at 8:58 pm (UTC -4)
Fongy as perfect as Crawford is for Citi he is basically Pagan. What we need is a middle of the order hitter. Either the Mets feel that is Beltran or they trade him and get one.
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-3:22pm at 3:22 pm (UTC -4)
Well no point in trying to suggest otherwise to anyone who would say this post is propaganda supported by flawed worthless statistics.
Lets just ignore all kinds of evidence on all kinds of fronts regarding all kinds of different issues and just keep playing the same veteran players exactly when and where they want to be played because apparently that’s what this team game is all about – appeasing veteran players no matter what.
Clearly I’ve missed the point of baseball which I now understand is “Jose Reyes ran to 1B on the back field in spring training once why he is not playing everyday at the major league level is beyond me he’s ready. Oliver Perez has shown flashes sure he’s been inconsistent but he just needs to keep pitching he’ll get better and continued poor results until that uncertain time in the future are irrelevant. John Maine should not be treated like that that’s horrible Manuel is a jerk who is losing his players by the minute. Maine just needs to go out there with the ball every 5 days and anyone who disagrees is ill informed and trying to foment discontent. Carlos Beltran came out of the womb a center fielder and by God he will be a center fielder nothing that he’s done in center field since he returned to action wearing a gigantic brace after missing 88 games indicates that he is anything less than wonderful. 25 man and 40 man rosters are irrelevant because these 8 guys were anointed to play every inning of every game wherever they want because dammit they’re major league baseball players.”
I’m sorry I ever thought otherwise. How could I have been so foolish.
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
glad you wised up ;p
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Sir… have a cup of coffee and a cookie. it will be alright. common sense is not for everyone.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Let me see if I can explain it to you Grave.
A wise man once told me that The universe is like a safe to which there is a combination. But the combination is locked up in the safe.
Glad I could help.
metsfan4decades
8/4/2010-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
hahahaha. Someone was paying attention….
GravediggerHebner
8/4/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
My comment just above is a deliberately written faux-overreaction. But it was born in the idea that this post is being cast aside as “more blame Beltran propaganda.”
I never said that Beltran had done anything wrong or inappropriate (other than not play his usually stellar defense which is understandable given his layoff and brace both of which I noted).
I merely suggested that he could do something right and appropriate while carefully including at the very bottom the important aspect that it is ultimately the manager’s decision and that he, the manager, should seek to re-position the two players. I never “blamed Beltran.”
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Preaching to the choir.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I got it.
And I thought it was an excellent, well-timed, well-argued, and really good piece.
As pretty much all of yours are.
ceetar
8/4/2010-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree strongly with roughly the entire post and i see no correlation to Hunter.
I wouldn’t classify Beltrans outfield defense as “a big problem”. I wouldn’t use UZR, particularly on two small sample sizes (don’t some say it’s barely accurate when applied over three years?). Hunter has played roughly 100 games in CF this year right?
the whole tone of the post “Hey Carlos..” addresses specifically him, and it’s just more posts out there in the world that give people like Joe Benigno evidence towards hating him. “I didn’t read it much but this stathead here says it’s real bad bro, they gotta move him”
One thing in favor of the move that I ponder is whether or not Pagan gets better reads on balls than Carlos. Beltran has typically played deep, and maybe doesn’t read the ball off the bat quite as well and was able to make up for it by his lateral movement. maybe this is compromised, maybe it’s not. Maybe tossing him in RF with quirky outfield walls would negate any slim benefit of Pagan in CF. Also, who knows what Pagan’s future is with this team. The Twins are theoretically moving an aging player over for the guy that may play there the next 10 years. Is Pagan that? Maybe Fernando Martinez is that in right and the Mets would be better served to get another year out of Beltran in center.
youngvalerawest
8/4/2010-6:56pm at 6:56 pm (UTC -4)
When have you ever saw a problem in anything?
trs86
8/4/2010-9:03pm at 9:03 pm (UTC -4)
Thing is Ceetar I think you are allowing yourself to become jaded on the situation because of the over-saturation of bad Beltran articles. While I agree that you can’t just say well Hunter slid over so Beltran should nor do I believe that UZR for Beltran has any merit, it’s still a very well written argument.
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
lmaooooooo this made me literally lol
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
Well I assume you know that the wise man was Grave having some fun with me asking to please be spared any more analogies the other night.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t forget how selfish Beltran was by being born in the middle of the night when his mom clearly would have preferred late morning/early afternoon.
Plus, I have it on good authority from a nurse in the Manati Puerto Rico General Hospital that little Carlos showed ZERO leadership skills in the maternity ward.
In addition, as he was placed in berth 3 in the lineup of cribs, anytime he was removed from the ward and returned to a different spot, he whined and cried all night, showing, once and for all at age 2 days, that he had no heart and was selfish.
Finally, when the doctors picked him up at age 3 days, his muscles had not yet fully formed, so THAT is where he received his apt pejorative of being “soft.”
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
I heard there were concerns about the mole causing considerable discomfortable for Carlos’ mother during the delivery. His response? 1 goo and 2 ga’s. Such lack of respect for one’s mother. The gall!
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly!!
fongy2
8/4/2010-3:58pm at 3:58 pm (UTC -4)
My friend you can keep
lappin’up Beltran(and I
mean that in all good humor) BUT despite 3great seasons , he hasn’t earned his contract AND if it wasn’t for Omar bringing in Delgado,
I have and will always believe we’d have seen
ALOT more of the season one type stats
he put up. Delgado took
SO much heat and responsiblity off him
And I’d like to think
that for 120 Million
we’d be buying ourselves not just an Allstar player but a leader both on and off the field.
Beltran has never should any desire to fit that mold or take that part of the responsibility which
came with THAT contract. I’m about done with him and like I said above am ready to move on. The FO HAS TO get Wright and Reyes
locked up with new contracts and I for one look foward to
the time when Beltran’s no longer a Met. That era is about over and looking back
we got one great run
out of it………..
Not worth 120Mil in my book.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Well, as I recall, I am pretty sure, not totally, but pretty sure, that Beltran and Boras did not have a gun to Omar’s head when he made that offer. Pretty sure.
Is he worth that much? Who in baseball is? Pujols. Maybe a few others.
We got 3 and 1/2 seasons of great production—power, speed, great defense.
Yes, it was a 6-year deal, and yes, he has been somewhat injury-prone.
I am not lapping up Beltran in my little joke comment here as much as I am mocking those who call him selfish, soft, unclutch, and a cancer. He’s just not any of those things.
trs86
8/4/2010-9:06pm at 9:06 pm (UTC -4)
Difference in if he has performed up to his contract or if he was worth 120M. He was for sure worth 120M based on the fact that defensively and offensively he was consistently one if the top 2 CF in the game. Determining if a player actually earned his salary depends on things much more than just production or even leadership. You have to also factor in ticket and merchandise sells. So based on that I am sure the Wilpons have not LOST money on Beltran.
ceetar
8/4/2010-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
The world is not black and white. Just because, say Maine was a liar, doesn’t mean Manuel didn’t lose him or isn’t a jerk.
Just because Alex Escobar failed, doesn’t mean Fernando Martinez will.
Just because Reyes took a while to come back, doesn’t mean Carlos should be eased back in.
Just because Torii Hunter eventually was moved to RF doesn’t mean Beltran should be.
I could go on and on. NOTHING in baseball is absolute. And while sometimes, particularly as a manager, you have to guess based on small samples, I haven’t seen something from Beltran that suggests to me we should mess with things and have him play left field and then right field. Sometimes you just gotta step back and let things happen, rather then trying to nitpick every little situation. (another one of Manuel’s frequent problems imo)
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-4:06pm at 4:06 pm (UTC -4)
Your black n white argument is good but it has holes.
Just because Beltran was the cf also doesnt mean he should still be the cf.
Just because he is not as experienced in RF as Pagan is doesn’t mean he will be any worse than Pagan is.
Just because Reyes took a while to come back doesn’t mean that Beltran will eventually come back.
You get it?
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know if Pagan playing CF is better but the idea that Beltran would come out and say play me in RF coach if you think that makes the team better (something that he may have done already I don’t know) is a positive thing to hear also.
ceetar
8/4/2010-4:20pm at 4:20 pm (UTC -4)
I do, but my point is that you never actually know. It’s not like every ball hit is getting into the gaps. That balls falling beyond Beltran regularly that you think he’d normally get to.
It’s hard to analyze the little things. Take batting order. While it probably doesn’t make very much difference which order you bat guys in, particularly obvious ones like flipflopping Wright/Beltran, there just might be something to the comfort factor of knowing where you hit, knowing who’s up before and after you, etc.
I just don’t think the games we’ve seen out of Beltran is enough to dictate exactly how he feels, how much of what is rust versus brace, if he’s been hestitant about SB just because he’s not comfortable with the brace versus it slowing him down, or he’s not getting good reads on pitchers, being a little rusty there too.
I’m just not ready to say that the team is best if Carlos goes to RF now, later, next year and then doesn’t resign with the Mets. It’s impossible to say how things will progress, but I do know we’ll miss him when he’s gone.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
Sadly I don’t get to watch as many games as I used to so that I could give a more definitive opinion on how Beltran has played CF day in day out since his return.
Sometimes I think that some feel that Beltran to RF is like a demotion. I don’t necessarily see it that way.
If you strictly look at it as what is best right now for the team I can see how based on Pagan’s play overall this season some would feel Pagan in CF makes the team stronger.
You say that right now you don’t feel the team is better with Beltran in RF. That’s ok also.
ceetar
8/4/2010-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
There’s also the point that Pagan has been playing some LF, given Bay’s absense. Something he’s done a lot more than Beltran has, and if we inserted Pagan in center now, you’d have to put Beltran in left.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
i mean moving Beltran over for the start of next season as I think we will need a miracle of epic proportions for us to make the playoffs.
i just dont see Beltran being able to stay healthy for a full season and be his old self at the plate but nonetheless playing RF next season maybe eases his knee problems…
trs86
8/4/2010-9:00pm at 9:00 pm (UTC -4)
Dang Grave… LOL
I think EVENTUALLY Beltran should move to RF. I am just not sure you can slide him over this season. What you don’t want is Cameron part 2. Also it’s not like RF in Citi is very easy. In my opinion you get the best of both worlds by repositioning Pagan in RF to allow him to cover a little more of the gap for Beltran.
fongy2
8/4/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll tell ya Mr.North Jersey, your
above point about the one real good
month we had out of four is a GREAT ONE!!!…For the first 6,7 weeks of
the season AND the past 6,7 weeks…
We’re 31-46….Now thats pretty bad!
About half a season, so pro-rated,
we’re what?…A 65 Win team??!!…..
…..UGLY…..No matter how else you look at it!
metsfan4decades
8/4/2010-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
The most bipolar NY Met season I can remember watching in a long time…maybe ever.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
Thx Fongy for the comp. I think if you check again the record is 31-44 rather than 31-46 not that it changes anything much.
Remember the Mets haven’t won 2 in a row since June 22-23 vs Detroit. A span of 36 games. I wonder what the all time record is?
metsfan4decades
8/4/2010-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
The usual suspects tonight:
Reyes
Pagan – LF
Beltran – CF
Wright
Davis
Thole
Francoeur
Castillo
Pelf
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
At least no changes after a win.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
the problem is the Mets cant make drastic changes to this 25 man roster. we don’t have MLB ready pitching prospects to trade and the financial stability i think is a legitimate concern now…
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
They can’t even add 1 person for Ollie’s spot!
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
they arent paying him 12 mil to sit on his couch or go play someplace else. Until they cut ties he has to be the favorite for the rotation, same with Castillo.
ceetar
8/4/2010-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
There was nothing out there worth trading borderline ready major league pitching for.
youngvalerawest
8/4/2010-7:03pm at 7:03 pm (UTC -4)
That’s not true. But it doesn’t matter because the Mets don’t have any of that besides Jon Niese who is no longer a prospect, but is a major league contributor.
The only guy as Mejia, who was hurt. And if you think it wasn’t worth trading Mejia for Oswalt or Lee then you obviously didn’t read Grave’s multi-part series on trading prospects for stars.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-4:25pm at 4:25 pm (UTC -4)
I was listening to the FAN and Francessa basically was implying the mets should lift the untouchable tag on Reyes + Wright (more specifically Reyes) this offseason and if they get a real good offer they should accept. I actually agree with that sentiment as lets be hypothetical for a moment.
Lets say the Tampa Bay Rays offered us Matt Garza, Reid Brignac and 2 pretty good but not top prospects…that would be pretty hard to pass up no?
dirtysanchez
8/4/2010-4:35pm at 4:35 pm (UTC -4)
Yea oleo that would be great but HIGHTLY doubtful…their SS is young and just having sophmore blues…the rays have no need for reyes and lets face it…longo>wright anyday
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
yes they certainly have no need for Reyes but my point is that if an offer similar to that were to come in for Reyes we should certainly look into it.
for example if the Red Sox were to offer Scutaro, Casey Kelly and Yamaico Navarro or the Angels offered Erick Aybar, Garrett Richards and Trevor Bell, i think you have to accept it…
stickguy
8/4/2010-5:37pm at 5:37 pm (UTC -4)
yes, if the mets got a godfather offer for Reyes in the off season, it would be a good idea to move him.
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
I read where FWICG.com had expressed happiness at the rejection by the Mets being offered Brett Myers for Parnell and Tejada.
Not knowing enough about Myers I am trying to understand why the happiness?
He seems to be having a decent season and if I read it correctly the Mets could retain him through 2012 paying him $7M/2011 AND $11M/2012 at which time he will be 31 yrs old.
Is Tejada and this season from Parnell so good that this seemed like an unfair trade?
ceetar
8/4/2010-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
yeah, I’d rather not trade two young guys for someone who’s been mostly not that good and is merely having a good year. Myers doesn’t add enough to this team really.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-5:00pm at 5:00 pm (UTC -4)
the question is does Myers make the Mets good enough to make the playoffs, and IMHO unless we were to get someone like Cano, Pujols, Votto, Hamilton the answer is no…
Mr North Jersey
8/4/2010-5:47pm at 5:47 pm (UTC -4)
Yea that may be true but then I am at a loss because if he did have a track record of having a few good years then he would cost that much more in prospects and then the Mets would be saying that they are unwilling to give up the prospects.
So It is like there is no way of making a deal. If you want to give up low end prospects then people don’t like the players coming in return.
It’s like wanting to have your cake and eat it to in that some want a good pitcher that costs little and can be held for a few years but only if it costs low end prospects.
Now where we are I guess it is pointless but it was more about being happy about not doing the trade that had me scratching my head.
trs86
8/4/2010-9:10pm at 9:10 pm (UTC -4)
I actually don’t believe that rumor anyway.
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
Well… it’s takes someone with pretty big balls to take a fan fav in the prime of their career for prospects. The Marlins did it. They’ve won 2 world series. And, no one shows up to their park. (could be the non-dome thing, but regardless…)
Would I want to? no, i don’t think I would. But everyone has a price. A tipping point. Garza, Brignac and Bartlett for Reyes… As a Met fan, that fills more holes than it makes.
And on a somewhat side note, i miss the days when it was the pitching staff that defined the mets, and hitting followed. The other way around doesn’t win all that often.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
see im willing to downgrade at SS to upgrade the farm system and the pitching staff…
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-5:20pm at 5:20 pm (UTC -4)
And when you look at them as big ole’ statistical meatbags (think grave came up with that back in the day), then yes, 2+’s combined with 1- is an overall upgrade.
Now, the fan in me wants Reyes and Wright hooping and a hollering at the pitcher’s mound after Krod stikes out Jeter in 3 pitches to win the WS this year, 4 games to none.
oleosmirf
8/4/2010-5:23pm at 5:23 pm (UTC -4)
yea i just think that if you can get a real MLB ready SS prospect or controllable SS plus a SP prospect or two then its a good trade.
trs86
8/4/2010-9:11pm at 9:11 pm (UTC -4)
Trade Reyes at this point then you also trade Johan, Beltran, Bay, …
njstuckintx
8/4/2010-9:54pm at 9:54 pm (UTC -4)
If there is a package that provides and adequate SS and upgrades to the SP and RP (just as an example), why would subtracting Reyes equate to throwing up the white flag?
trs86
8/4/2010-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
You are not getting a star back for Reyes thus it make us weaker for most likely next 2 years. No reason to have those guys then.
Seen our record without Reyes? Who is replacing that offense?
johan4cy
8/4/2010-5:45pm at 5:45 pm (UTC -4)
I would only do it if it gave us a starting SS, a top of the rotation pitcher, and a top prospect.
johan4cy
8/4/2010-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with the post, but UZR is BS… you can’t use numbers to see how good a player is in the field.
tkfj2
8/4/2010-7:11pm at 7:11 pm (UTC -4)
I’m pretty sure numbers are more often better than biased eyes.
Some numbers have flaws like UZR, others are valuable. I can’t imagine where this game would be without stats and numbers. I guess teams would have Gary Matthews Jr./Rick Ankiel/Jeff Francouer patrolling OF’s because they have the right amount of veteran prescence and grit.
johan4cy
8/4/2010-8:29pm at 8:29 pm (UTC -4)
No….. offensive stats do mean something, but it’s impossible to determine how someone does on defense by looking at numbers. The only way to truly tell how someone plays defense is to watch him play every day.
stickguy
8/4/2010-5:46pm at 5:46 pm (UTC -4)
I shot a 50 on the back 9 today. So nothing the Mets can do will ruin this day!
On vacation this week, so have been catching posts sproadically and usually well after the fact.
I just can’t stand the fact that the Mets are actually doing something to help the Phillies. Man, the mets better win a couple of games this weekend (especially sunday, when I hope to get tickets to go).
to address the points i remember:
1) In the off season, I agree the mets should listen to offers for jose, and if the right deal gets put on the table, do it.
2) Myers for tejada and parnell? Probably a decent deal, but I guess the mets did not think they needed another SP this year. they certainly need on next year!
3) At this point, it may be more of a problem trying to relocate beltran. See how he looks in ST, and figure out then if it has to happen. of course, I would not be surprised at all if Beltran breaks down again this year and.or next.
Oh, and whoever mentioned the idea of a Beltran extension? Not a chance in the world.
Kingman 26
8/4/2010-6:08pm at 6:08 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, that must have been a pretty easy par-3 course you played!
Welcome back. You are missed when you are gone for a few hours.