With apologies to those who were earlier subjected to this space’s perhaps premature support of Jerry Manuel, the time clearly has come for this somewhat capable and apparently decent man to be replaced. The relatively short-lived resurgence of May and early June was preceded by-and followed by-a performance very similar to the 2009 one, minus the injury excuse.
Jerry Manuel is not a terrible manager, nor is he a great one. While his pitching moves can be dissected, a manager must work with what he has, and with the bullpen Jerry possesses, a great many of his moves, in all likelihood, would not make much of a difference anyway. The bunting is a different story. An offensively challenged team should not bunt like the Mets do. The Howard/Utley/Victorino-less Phils provided the perfect counterpoint Friday night. With Ruiz at the plate, men on first and second and no outs, and a tie game, he was allowed to hit away, and smacked a single. That’s the way the game should be played.
Indeed, watching this entire series showed a team with a plan, a team not afraid to be aggressive, and a team which never gives up—precisely what the Jerry Manuel Mets are not; at least not on a consistent basis.
Regardless, Jerry is not coming back next year, and we have the last two months to use as a laboratory to see if an interim Wally Backman-managed team featuring our Junior Core youth movement can show promise and, from an ownership standpoint, keep the fans interested and optimistic. This works for all concerned.
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As our house meteorologist and all-around smart guy Prismo mentioned, we have right in front of us a perfect chance to give Wally two months to see how he behaves at the MLB level. And as Mr. North Jersey, the James Brown of the blog business as our hardest working man, has mentioned, the video of Wally going insane a few years back was apparently shot during a season where the team was being filmed for the show Playing for Peanuts. As this was indeed the case, the entire (ridiculous and embarrassing to be sure) incident must be examined in a wholly different light. Who knows what might have been encouraged/desired to improve ratings, gain exposure, and sell DVDs.
Buck Showalter is gone, and those who say that the Wilpons will not hire Valentine again are most likely correct. This leaves Backman and Tim Teufel as the most appealing choices to this writer. Bob Melvin is a twice-let go retread. Not the answer. Backman and Teufel have both had some success in the minors, but Wally has had more. In addition, he was thought of well-enough by the DBacks to be hired by them as manager. Yes, so was Melvin, whose MLB managerial record is eerily similar to Jerry’s-one postseason appearance and a Manager of the Year award, but a record right around .500 overall, and neither of their teams showed sustained improvement over a multi-year period.
Some have mentioned Backman’s apparently also bunting at strange times-but A ball is a place where, while winning certainly is important, teaching is paramount. He may have been trying to increase the offensive repertoire of his charges rather than playing with Jerry’s annoyingly predictable conservatism.
Backman was, all sides must agree, a hard-nosed player who undoubtedly squeezed the very most from his athletic abilities. He certainly has those often-debated mystical qualities of “heart†and “grit†but unlike some other Gritty McPlayers, Wally actually was a central part of some really good-to-great teams.
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There clearly has been something missing from this team for years, and it is indeed hard to point a finger at what it is. But there is most definitely validity to the idea that the players around Wright, Reyes, and Beltran just have not been good enough since the near-magical 2006 season. That team had a supporting cast which included the still-productive Delgado, the fiery AND productive LoDuca, the surprisingly productive-and by many accounts very helpful teammate-Valentin, the looked-up-to Floyd, the excellent bench player Chavez, and bullpen pieces of Bradford, Oliver, and Sanchez. As the well-respected dean of TRDMB writers GraveDiggerHebner pointed out with some modern statistical research, even the esoteric numbers show how much better this supporting cast was than those of the last four years.
While it is perhaps an unfair comparison to look at the best team in franchise history, just for fun and to point out how good a great team’s supporting cast can be, the 1986 team had Rick Aguilera as 5th starter, Randy Myers in the back of the pen, and two utility players named Howard Johnson and Kevin Mitchell.
What does all of this mean? The team payroll was somewhat significantly decreased this year. This fact, when combined with the team’s failure to spend at all thus far during the year, leads one to reasonably believe that we are not going to be seeing a Beltran/Pedro/Johan/KRod/Bay-type newcomer this offseason.
Which very strongly suggests that the players around our stars had better be a lot better than they have been the last couple of years if this team is to contend in 2011. And that’s where a new manager comes in. After 2011, Beltran, Ollie, and Castillo all come off the books. That’s a lot of money. But do we want to wait until the next big free agent/trade acquisition(s) in 2012 to contend again? In 2011 we will most likely have to try to contend with what we have.
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The feeling here is that Valentine or Showalter would have been very able to coax more from lesser starters and marginal players than Manuel can. But Buck is gone and Bobby V seems unlikely.
So when considering the career Backman had as a player, as well as some of the clear success he has had in the minors, this all points to him as a very attractive choice. A man who never stopped hustling, who got the maximum from his abilities, and who was a key part of the best team in Met history. Being a vocal and fiery fan favorite and ring-wearer cannot hurt either from a business standpoint. And it must be noted that some of the most successful managers of the last few decades (Cox, LaRussa, Martin, Weaver, Piniella…) have had incidents on and/or off the field as well.
We have 51 games left. This is a nice, long period as a trial for Wally and for many of the kids. We had hoped to be right in the middle of the playoff hunt, but we simply are not. And every time we have a good win or two, it is followed by a bad loss or two. The team has won 2 road series the entire season, in mid-June in Baltimore and Cleveland; it has not won back-to-back games since June 22-23; and the offense is increasingly abominable. What will watching Jerry bunt excessively and start someone like Mike Hessman (and bat him 5th!) do for this team’s future? Jerry basically admitted late last year to playing Tatis in an effort to try to get an extra win or two to help save his managerial job. We must not see this the rest of 2010, and Manuel’s quick backtracking on giving FMart all of the AB against righty pitchers again shows his unfortunate tendencies.
Let’s give Backman these last 51 games-or as many as logistically possible-to see how he will behave and to find out what he can do with a roster that very well may comprise much if not almost all of what we will be seeing in April 2011.
The team is almost certainly out of the running for 2010, so how can Backman’s interim hiring damage the Mets’ chances the rest of the year? And all things considered, the potential for media backlash should he behave poorly really cannot mean much at this point after what we have witnessed the last two years; the potential reward is clearly worth the risk.
It says here that a more aggressive style, from a true Met winner, along with the â€intangibles†that a change like this can bring, argues quite strongly for this move to be made, and to be made now.
89 comments
rustyjr
8/9/2010-8:22am at 8:22 am (UTC -4)
I agree on all points my friend – but we all know Wally won’t be here unti next season – if then
I have a strange feeling it’s going to be either Melvin or Collins – but hey I’m just speculating
ceetar
8/9/2010-8:24am at 8:24 am (UTC -4)
“An offensively challenged team should not bunt like the Mets do.”
I contend that maybe they wouldn’t be so offensively challenged if they didn’t bunt so much.
Also, he could make the right lineup/rest moves and not be an idiot when he fills out the lineup card. that’d help too.
metsfan4decades
8/9/2010-8:40am at 8:40 am (UTC -4)
I agree Jerry will not be back next year.
The problem with an interim replacement, which will probably be an non experienced big league manager from within the organization, is he will be nothing more than a puppet on a string.
The promotion to Met manager for 6 weeks will probably be contingent on said manager doing what the FO wants him to do, not giving him free reign to manager as he sees fit. Maybe some combo of playing/showcasing certain talent for future trade consideration, appeasing some fan favorite veterans, maybe pulling starters earlier than other wise indicated so they can get a look at some BP arms for the future – especially when Sept. call-ups are here, and god-forbid maybe even giving Perez a couple of starts.
If said interim manager doesn’t do what the FO wants, he risks his job security with the organization. If he does do what the FO wants, he doesn’t show the rest of the league any true talent he has for managing a big league club, especially if he has aspirations in that direction.
The time to have cleaned house with an all new coaching staff was at the end of last season, or NLT end of May this season. Once again, a day late/dollar short type of mentality.
Since this is probably going to be nothing short of a lose/lose situation for all, I wonder if it’s worth bothering to do right now….
stickguy
8/9/2010-8:56am at 8:56 am (UTC -4)
the interim dilema IMO is why they should just plug in some old guy flaoting around in the organization, where he has no expectation (nor desire) to become the LT manager. because, IMO, if they are in a situation where they are dumping the manager to start cleaning up the mess (draining the swamp? Picking tar balls off the beach?), then a puppet is exactly what you need.
I would say differently if they were still in the race, and trying to bring in a guy to jump start the run.
I know some of us make fun of th ejidiot, but even he must realize he is dead man walking. Unless he knows otherwise, and if that is true, then the Met organization is even more fouled up than eny of us realize!
ceetar
8/9/2010-9:03am at 9:03 am (UTC -4)
Leaving aside that the idea that they may get an interim and then fall in love with him and not do their due diligence like last time, which isn’t a good way to look at it, I’d like to see them make a change now anyway.
There is a couple of things at work here:
1. You signal that for sure you’re looking for a new manager. Guys like Bobby V (whether or not it’s realistic) become aware of the job opening, rather than them maybe taking other jobs or directions.
2. This team quit on Manuel last year in October. A ‘puppet’ would at least be able to properly play Fernando Martinez/Tejada/Evans/etc and would be directed to play the guys the front office would want to take a closer look at. Having the manager on the same page for once would be nice.
3. If the front office wants to, and i wouldn’t necessarily recommend this, pick a Leo Mazzone type of pitching coach or something that wouldn’t be selected by the manager, any extra time they get with the pitchers would be a bonus.
4. It would signal change, there would be positive changes and feelings and all sorts of “2011 is awesome” feelings about getting back on top. I don’t know that this would get people to Citi Field, but it _might_ sooth the fan anger a teensy bit. Clear out some of the old wood in Manuel and the coaches, have guys like Mejia and Gee starting games, etc.
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
1) anyone smart enough to fix this team should be smart enough to know jerry is toast! But I guess with this team, anything is possible, so why not make it crystal clear? Although no top guy is likely to sign before the end of the year I would not think. And, a great reason to put in an obvious place holder.
2) absolutely it would be nice.
3) could not hurt, and if it was some reknowned “genius”, should not upset a Bobby V type too much you would hope.
4) this is the big reason.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
The team needs some fresh air…they have been living in the cloud of 2007 for too long. They need to clear out and start with new personell all around.
metsfan4decades
8/9/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
Good points.
I don’t know if he’d even be interested but I wonder if Bobby O would be considered for pitching coach? I usually tune into post game shows (and some pre game) and he seems to really tune into specific problems with pitchers and/or individual outings.
He’s got experience, some of it with the Mets in the minor league system. He was at one time pitching coach for bot the Cyclones and Binghamton. He was considered for the job in 2003 but they went with Peterson instead.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
I almost wish they would do that with Ron, but then I’d miss him in the booth.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:01am at 9:01 am (UTC -4)
Well done piece king,
While I dont agree that they should fire manuel now and dont believe he will be, I can see/respect your arguement. I just dont see any benifit from replacing him now. Do you think it is fair that another manager, be it wally or whoever, gets basically an audition with this cast? Do you think we will actually get a good barometer to his managerial expertise if they manage to do even just a little bit better. Im confident you or I can see right through the situaiton and make a judgement but im not so confident in Mets management. Thats how we got stuck with manuel for 2 years…he came in and did everything you could want a manager to do. Hell I remember manuel used to get tossed on a regular basis in 08 when he was auditioning, now that he has the job…not so much. I dont feel the Mets understand what interum truley means and we will get stuck with someone who isnt qualified to do the job. I think the Mets are just going to start off fresh in 2011.
On another note, I dont think wally will get the nod. I think you gotta pick a manger that can respond well to your ballclubs “personality”. Davey was perfect for the 86 team because he had more or less the same time of personality. Wally is no where near as even keel as these guys so I dont think his personality would translate too much. Unfortunatly, I see bob melvins personality falling more in line with the clubs. Right or wrong(more wrong than right imo) I think generally clubs try and do that. We need a guy who is a strategical mastermind and knows how to win NL ball.
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
your 2nd paragraph is interesting. I bet if you ran a poll (hey, let’s have Matty do it! He’ll poll anything!), a vast majority of fans will support a guy with a different personality, since the team needs a new one!
It is hard to say how much the team takes on a personality of the manager though. But I sure don’t think this bunch needs another laid back Spicolli type in charge.
come to think of it, who exactly is the “team” to have the laid back personality, and when did it start? Is it all wright and beltran? Even though beltran missed a full year pretty much? Reyes never seemed like the laid-back, “hey dude” type. Even wright seems like a “nice boy” type, but almost too intense (in his quiet way).
bay is new, so no explanation for last years malaise. Rookies try to blend in.
Santana and K Rod are intense, so not really them.
and just about everyone else should be moved in the off season.
So, maybe a new manager with some fire and brimstone, and a couple new players that have an intensity to win, and can lead by example?
And no, I don’t think that tantrums and explosions will help. As you noted, a strategical mastermind is needed much more. But being able to motivate through sheer force of personality would not be a bad thing either.
basically, bring back Gil Hodges.
ceetar
8/9/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
Too hard to tell what type of ‘personality’ would fit, or what specifically, if anything, is wrong with the clubhouse one.
I do feel like guys are sometimes unprepared and other times pressing too hard. I always feel/felt like Jerry puts on the pressure at the wrong times and is aloof too much at others.
Like how he’s all fiery and annoyed at Maine when he’s trying to battle through injury (not getting into that again, but i’m not sure Manuel’s attitude was helping there) but he’s laid back and showing no real rush while Pelfrey labors for start after start and maybe needs a little bit of pressure and coaching..
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
It always seems that Jerry is reactinary, not proactive. That is, he is always one step behind instead of 1 ahead.
And if the players know this, makes sense they would press (and be unprepared).
sometimes a team just has to buy in and trust that the manager/coach knows what they are doing, and stick with the plan.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:26am at 9:26 am (UTC -4)
The hypocrasy is one of the most mind boggling when it comes to jerry imo…
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
I just dont see the same type of fire that winning teams have. Their character as a whole to me appears laid back…i guess call it very quiet confidence or something. I have not followed wallys career as a manager that much so I dont know what he brings to the table but we need someone who has some strategic ability…a guy who wont bunt with our most consistant hitter. Its all in the type of motivation though…all i know of wally is his firey personality…not a good mix if a guy like strawberry can hurt some of these guys feelings.
Bottom line, I know the mets will try to get a new manager but I highly doubt it will be wally. It will most likely be a “dont rock the boat” guy like melvin.
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
IMO the boat, like the van, NEEDS a good rockin’!
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
If this floats a rockin’…
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
DON’T come a knockin’–it could be Kingman with Alyssa Milano or something.
Just talking about her fashions, but still, we will need privacy.
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:03am at 9:03 am (UTC -4)
I think you know that I am fully on board with the concept of getting rid of Jerry. And at this point, it is overdue. You certainly nailed plenty of reasons why.
but as I noted above, I am not sure about bringing in a “real” candidate now, unless you want to take the risk of having to dump him at the end of the year. You also quite likely end up with a guy that will be worse than jerry in terms of flogging pitchers and misusing rookies in order to generate a few more wins.
there is also a perception that the Mets org. does not plan well, and sometimes makes knee-jerk decisions. So, it seems to make a ton more sense to get to the off season, reevaluate the sturcture from the top down, and make the required changes in a logical, intelligent manner.
Wally will still be there after the season ends. And I am not sure that a 6-7week trial is going to show that much.
but I sure support making a change now, just to get the dead man stench off the team, and to make sure that guys are used the way the team wants (and needs) them to be.
and if you want omar out of the GM seat, holding off probably gives a better chance that it happens (so the new guy can make the manager decision)
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
Does Jauss have any managerial experience?
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
I think so. And given that (props to MF4D for this) he is actually a cardboard cutout propped up on the bench, he should be the perfect puppet!
metsfan4decades
8/9/2010-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
LOL……problem is no one knows what his ‘personality’ is b/c of that cardboard cut out……
ceetar
8/9/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
he’s 2-0 this year..
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
That’s worth 4 years, 6 mil.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
I understand the point of auditioning one of wally/timmy. All I want is a teacher. There are so many kids on the team now, I want them learning, both on the field nonsense (fundys, pitch selection, approach to an AB) and off (stay away from the chicks with the 4″ heels and the 5″ mini-skirts, putting cocaine up your nose or steriods in your tush are not recommended for long careers). Cut out the deadwood, let the kids learn and, how i loathe to write this, don’t care about the wins. Get the fundy’s right, and the wins follow. And at this point, unless you are going on a 21-5 run, the playoffs are slip sliding away.
Maybe Wally can be the sensai. Maybe Jauss is that guy for 2 months. I dunno. I just post here.
Like Socrates, Jerry has quite the influence on the youth. Unlike Socrates, Jerry has never been confused as an intellectual.
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
“Like Socrates, Jerry has quite the influence on the youth. Unlike Socrates, Jerry has never been confused as an intellectual.”
Dude, you are frigin funny. I for one sincerely appreciate it.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
trs86
8/9/2010-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Nice argument. Just not a big fan of Wally as the next Mets manager. He does not have the experience and in my opinion the demeanor to be successful as the manager of the Mets at this point.
I do like how you phrase that he was well liked enough to be hired by the Dbacks, he was also well liked enough to be fired in less than 4 days from that same spot because of his undisclosed legal issues stemming from him losing his temper. We can dismiss that video all we want but EVERY outlet describes Wally as a hot head.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Well, to be fair on the experience part, that would be the point of him managing the 51 remaining games, no?
As for the opinion on demeanor… you may be wrong, you may be right. I can’t say one way or the other.
Lastly, how does Wally not fire him? They had to, even if they liked/wated him. You can’t have someone get busted for domestic abuse and then keep him. I’d have done the say. “Wally, we like you, but you got liquered up and went nuts. And on Old Grandad, no less!”
Would that affect him as Met’s manager? I don’t think so, as enough water has flown beneath that proverbial bridge.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Thing is he was busted before he was hired. He just “forgot” to tell them about it.
If the pint is to give him the 51 games to give him experience then hell we can select anyone we want with no MLB experience. Are we sure he’s the best choice?
How many times have we seen the Mets be fooled by 51 game sample sizes? So a team with no pressure on it performs better for Wally and we should then consider him for next year? Sorry can’t do it.
Give it to someone who has no thoughts of being the manager next year, coast out the year and find the RIGHT fit in October.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
I lean toward Jauss for that. Somewhat seemless transition. Obi could fit that roll as well.
Are we sure Wally is the best choice? No. There are very few things we can be sure of. Death, Taxes, apparently bunting with 0 or 1 out with a man on first…
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
Thx TRS. Appreciate that.
stickguy
8/9/2010-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
not sure how much of a bellweather it is, but the infamous confidence rating over at FWICG is down into single digits (9%)!
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Its actually up…it was at 3% last week lol
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
The intelligence rating is at 2.8%
trs86
8/9/2010-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
If I had my preference. I fire Jerry and promote Obewan. It’s safe, he’s familiar to the guys and as Ceetar pointed out it sounds the alarm to the real managers that the Mets are looking.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
I can back this thinking.
ceetar
8/9/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Help us Obewan, you’re our only hope.
prismo
8/9/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Use the force out.
metsfan4decades
8/9/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
On another note, Greg Prince over at Faith and Fear in Flushing certifies the time of death for the last remote possibility of Met contention as 8/08/2010 at 4:08pm.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
he is probably right in that assessment. They were on life support after the homestand, I think they are officially dead now.
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
The death certificate reads July 25, after we roared out of the break and completed a 2-9 trip.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
“1. I would rather have Fareed Zakaria be my closer than to ever see Angel Pagan bunt again, with Jose Reyes on first base, and no outs.”
From Mack’s Mets. LOL.
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
???
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
cnn sunday morning anchor
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
lmaooooo
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
“The team has won 2 road series the entire season, in mid-June in Baltimore and Cleveland”
That sentence made me sick. How many road series were they utterly owned by the Nats and the Diamondbacks? Please pass the Imodium.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
The entire season?!
Well that sums up your 2010 season
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Yes Dirty, hard as it is to believe.
As Casey or Yogi used to say, “You could look it up.” And I did, because it is too unreal to believe.
But it is true.
And thanks for the nice words up above; very appreciated.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
that stat is just depressing
We may disagree on many things king but I cant deny that your peices are one of the most insightful, well thought out and greatly articulated pieces we get around here. No doubt about it. Kingmans Corner is a trademark name as far as im concerned lol.
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
I did actually look that up to be sure it is true, and it sure as hell is, unreal and disgusting as it is.
Of course, that was Chris Carter’s big week, so the whole baseball universe was out of whack.
Seriously though, we have split some series on the road, and to me, the fact that we have not won back-to-back games since JUNE 23 is even more horrifying. 40 games!!
These two facts, to me, suggest that even the idea of the team contending for a playoff spot is comedy at best and farce at worst.
I don’t care if Frenchy is a nice guy; he’s gone and should sit on the bench. Jerry playing him is exhibit 87 of why he needs to go today. Enough. Let’s play Mike Hessman some more! Vomit.
trs86
8/9/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
I don’t have a problem resting Wright or Davis for Hessman occasionally. Not a big deal.
As for Frenchy you are caught in a difficult spot for sure. In Fmart you have a guy that struggled tremendously the last time he was up. He has a ton of pressure on him to perform. I can see the thoughts of giving him a few games against RH pitchers to work his way in and build confidence before throwing him out there again.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
Do you think he still has that pressure though…I can understand last year making his debut but now im sure nobody is really expecting anything major from him. We just know that frenchy wont be here next year and most likely fmart/pagan will be battling for starting RF’er.
trs86
8/9/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Oh I think there is a TON of pressure on the kid. People writing him off, calling him a bust.
As for the battle for RF? Really? Pagan’s already locked that down. My hopes are that Beltran gets traded and THEN you can think about Fmart.
trs86
8/9/2010-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Another interesting comment from Mack’s Mets: “2. I think having Jenrry Mejia pitch the pen in Queens this year actually has helped him develop as a starter. He had little control before this and his whole handle was his velocity on one pitch. Now, he seems to be concentrating more, inning by inning, and there is definitely some additional movement on his fastball.”
For those that don’t pay attention Mack is a Mets minor league guru.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
Great info on that site, horrible layout.
Do you think it really is the experience in the pen or just natural development? Just curious.
trs86
8/9/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
I am not sure. But that being said, I think fans blew the “damage” to Mejia thing WAY out of proportion. I liked having him up for a look see and I also liked his demeanor as well as the looks of his 2ndary pitches.
ceetar
8/9/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
I’m fully behind the Mejia experiment now. I think having him up here will/did have a positive effect. Shortly we’ll hear clamoring that he might as well start some games up here. I disagree on that though, he got his taste, leave the development down there. (of course, you gotta bring him up when the minors end anyway, so who knows..) I’d love it if he just flat-out owns in Spring Training and takes a job on the rotation. (Not wins, just looks so ready that even former manager/hack Jerry Manuel knows he should be in the rotation)
trs86
8/9/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar lets hope that does not happen this spring because that means we have other issues. That means the Mets did not go out and get another SP. I hope he comes up and dominates and is then ready when we need him.
As for what to do with him this year, he needs to get his innings. They have him scheduled for Winter league but I am not a big fan of that IF they plan on him being in consideration for next year.
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
It all depends on what they do with oliver perez imo. If they lock up dickey(which they should) and find a way to dump ollie, that leaves one spot open. Theres not much on the SP FA market for omar to get and the team is sheading payroll, I can see Mejia competing with a few guys for the 5th spot in the rotation….
rustyjr
8/9/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
The problem is – what team is gulable enough to take Ollie off our hands ?
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
The Hiroshima Toyo Carp!
dirtysanchez
8/9/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
I have no idea but if we make him cheap enough, someone will take him. Hell, gmj got picked up.
trs86
8/9/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Omar always brings in one big name player. Where else would that fit besides SR?
ceetar
8/9/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
You never know how things are going to shake out. Maybe they trade someone late in March if he’s demanding a job with his performance. Maybe someone gets hurt. Maybe they go with a 6-man rotation.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I was Anti-Mejia experiment when it happened. Too Young and too high hopes for the season to roll with “on the job training”. Did it benefit him? I think so (i mean, it better have!). When your starting pitching blows like old faithful and your best starting pitching prospect is pitching out of the Pen, it’s no wonder that people were concerned/confused/pissed/upset.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Mack is right Mejia’s biggest problem last season and during winterball was his control. It was not till this Spring Training that he started to show he had control of his fastball. Which is why at the time I cautioned that bringing him up based just on Spring Training performances was not a good idea because he had not shown control coming into season.
As a Met Mejia continued to show control for the most part but he was a one pitch pitcher and he was not developing his secondary pitches. To be a starter he needs to work on that and the Mets eventually did the right thing and sent him down to continue to develop as a starter.
Now he is back down in AA pitching and is continuing to develop. There is no doubt playing in the Bigs helped. Just being around seeing other Big Leaguers work asking them questions like a KRod for example. Then add just facing MLB Hitters. If Mejia didn’t learn from this then he is an idiot.
Now we wait and see. Yes Mejia looks good now in AA but keeping things in perspective I want to see a larger body of work then 7 plus innings. Would Mejia be pitching as well or better by now as a starter had he went down to AA when Spring Training ended? We will never know. All we have is what is in front of us now so we watch and hope Mejia is a smart pitcher and used his time in the Bigs wisely.
ceetar
8/9/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
YOu can never know. Just like you can never know if they leave Carlos in if they win, or if Luis starts they get more runs.. or if he gets to those balls that are hit..etc.
hence all the crazy arguments that happen about baseball. I don’t feel like you get into as heated debates about other sports.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
So your saying?
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
King, “I FEEL GOOOOOD!!!”
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
I knew that you would now!
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
GravediggerHebner
8/9/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Kong I think the point you make about the bunting with the offensively challenged team is spot on and one I agree with.
As I’ve said before I don’t hate bunting if it’s utilized at what I consider the proper time (late in a close game with the meat of your order coming up – not in the 1st inning, not late in the game when your 8th hitter is due up).
However I think your example with Ruiz isn’t a great one. Ruiz typically bats 8th for the Phillies and this season his line is .295/.389/.435. If the Mets had someone capable of that production that they could afford to bat 8th their lineup wouldn’t be offensively challenged in the first place. I think expecting Ruiz to be productive at that moment is more reasonable than expecting whoever the Mets have batting 8th to be so.
Which brings us back to your other point – the flawed roster/supporting cast, a point I think you made well so I feel no need to elaborate.
Ultimately despite the fact that Ceetar says it’s not a good way to look at it (which I find most surprising coming from the loudest anti-Manuel voice here considering this circumstance is precisely what got us Manuel) I am anti-midseason managerial changes so if we were sitting around a table counting votes mine would be ride out 2010 with Manuel then make a decision going forward about the manager in the off season. What the Mets would see from Backman the human being can be seen just as well from Brooklyn as it can from Queens. What the Mets would see from Backman the manager would be coming in a small sample from a team that has already been eliminated and is therefore under no pressure so would not be a true test in my opinion.
The way I see it the only reason to put in Backman now is a terrible one – sell tickets to people desperate for something to hold onto by installing a cog from 1986.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
I am still waiting to see if indeed Minaya will get to pick the Mets 3rd manager under his tenure.
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for the usually well-expressed feedback Grave.
I do slightly disagree with a few points:
The stage/circumstances/pressure Backman would face in Queens, even with a poor team going nowhere at the end of another lost season, is, I respectfully suggest, completely different than the circumstances in A ball.
Also, in the Ruiz situation, all things being equal, I would bet you a bottle of Patron Silver that Jerry would have bunted and pinch hit, not let him swing away.
As for your last sentence, I also think that, if Backman is being seriously considered, why not give him 51 games to get to know everyone and instill his vibe now, instead of waiting until the spring?
GravediggerHebner
8/9/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
All reasonable points. I’ve read articles that I should have bookmarked because I can’t find them now that show the majority of mid-season manager hires are themselves fired within the subsequent 18 months and I feel that this happens because the hiring is compromised precisely because it occurs during the season when so much else is going on and so many extenuating circumstances exist.
Certainly the stage is different in Queens than in Brooklyn. I just think many teams play well once they’re out of it precisely because the pressure is off – the season is “over.” It’s hard to tell whether that will carry over to the subsequent season or whether it’s a mirage. I respect the counterpoints but feel that the risks of making the wrong long term decision based on the balance of 2010 outweigh the rewards of giving him (or any replacement) a try.
In August 2010 Backman taking over as Mets manager could very well be the perfect solution and could lead to long term success. While the reasons for doing it now are not in any way heinous or ill-informed I simply prefer to get the whole organization on the same page during the off season without the day-to-day in-season pressures as distractions.
Loosely related have you seen any of “The Club” on MLB Network? Very interesting stuff.
trs86
8/9/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
BINGO.
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
“Which brings us back to your other point – the flawed roster/supporting cast, a point I think you made well so I feel no need to elaborate.”
I guess you were referring to this sentence…
trs86
8/9/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
“The way I see it the only reason to put in Backman now is a terrible one – sell tickets to people desperate for something to hold onto by installing a cog from 1986.”
prismo
8/9/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Saw this posted on MB last night… (and just confirmed it for myself)
The Mets haven’t won back-to-back games in 40 games.
The longer you think about that, the more ridiculous it sounds. It’s not just bad, it’s atrocious!
GravediggerHebner
8/9/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
Longest streak, both current and overall, in the majors.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Congrats Kong on making FWICG.com
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you sir! Just noticed it myself!
I have to admit, I feel good, as I know that I should now, when Matt links to my stories.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
I think other than Grave’s postgame posts you have the record for most article cerrone has linked to.
Are you sure your not Cerrone?
Kingman 26
8/9/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I am pretty sure….
Doesn’t my spelling alone prove I am not?
saltygary
8/9/2010-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
Yea that’s pretty cool. Good job Kong and all you other guys that have made this blog part of your career.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
I always have to stop to read whatever VCarver posts.
VCarver
Aug 09, 2010, 11:45 am at 11:45 am #
My top 5 choices for the Mets 2011 manager:
1. Backman
2. Backman
3. Backman
4. Oberkfell
5. Teufel
I do not think Melvin, BV or Torre are the right choice for the Mets right now.
I feel really strongly that Backman is the right choice.
I also don’t think that making a change now will do any good. Let Backman win a Penn League title, as someone else suggested, and then he can come in fresh next season.
But they also need to change GMs if they expect to improve long term. Just switching to Backman as manager is not enough.
youngvalerawest
8/9/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
I’d rather leave Backman to finish his season at Brooklyn for the sake of those players and their development. Afterall, those guys have a better chance of doing something special this season than the Mets’ current players. And those Cyclones have a better chance of winning as Mets than the current Mets.
As for 2011, I love Backman, though I’m not sure his small ball managerial style is right for this team or for this era. But at this point I’ll take anyone over Jerry and maybe Backman’s passion alone would lead to better things. The Mets seem passionless and that could be a reflection of the brain dead staff.
GravediggerHebner
8/9/2010-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
So when you referred to me as “the dean” is that more of a Dean Wormer or more of a Dean Cain kind of thing?
Just wonderin’