Alex Cora told us that if they are building for 2013 or 2014…they should just come out and say it and then do it
about 2 hours ago via web
JimBowdenXMFOX
JIM BOWDEN
This tweet by Jim Bowden caused an interesting debate by the 2 founders of T.R.D.M.B. today. Here is how it went down.
dirtysanchez says: My guess is because the mets cannot sell they are rebuilding 2 years into a new stadium so they have to give the perception anyway that they are contenders, which is very hard to rebuild and compete at the same time.
trs86 says: So we honestly think the METS believe they need to REBUILD, not retool, with Reyes, Wright, Davis, Pagan, Bay, Thole, Johan, Pelfrey, Niese, Krod… Wow.
dirtysanchez says: rebuild, retool…different shades of grey to me. I just dont think the fact that one minute we spend/act like a contender and the next we act like a rebuilding team has served the team well. We have a good nucleous but to me, every rebuilding team has a good nucleus that you rebuild around…if you wanna call it retool then be my guest.
trs86 says: If the Mets were rebuilding to me Dirty that means you trade Wright and Reyes, eat salary on Johan and Krod and you actually rebuild. Retooling is doing what they have been doing every year since 2005.
dirtysanchez says: We have two different definitons then. You dont trade wright/reyes/ike/thole because those are shallow positions for us. I think they should rebuild and start trading away other pieces and go with either cheaper options(minor league talent). Again retool/rebuild…depends on your definition but they both pretty much mean the same thing to me. You are not going to trade santana or krod either since there are no better options right now.
So what do you think? Do you follow the doctrine that rebuilding means trading away the core? Or do you believe as DirtySanchez notes that rebuilding is always done around an already existing nucleus? When you look back upon 2010 can’t you say it was in effect a rebuilding season while also trying to be competitive?
Here is the 25 man roster as it stands today.
| Rk | Pos | Age | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1B | Ike Davis* | 23 |
| 2 | 2B | Luis Castillo# | 34 |
| 3 | SS | Jose Reyes# | 27 |
| 4 | 3B | David Wright | 27 |
| 5 | CF | Angel Pagan# | 28 |
| 6 | RF | Jeff Francoeur | 26 |
| 7 | MI | Ruben Tejada | 20 |
| 8 | C | Henry Blanco | 38 |
| 9 | UT | Chris Carter* | 27 |
| 10 | CF | Carlos Beltran# | 33 |
| 11 | C | Josh Thole* | 23 |
| 12 | CI | Mike Hessman | 32 |
| 13 | OF | Fernando Martinez* | 21 |
| 14 | P | Johan Santana* | 31 |
| 15 | P | Jonathon Niese* | 23 |
| 16 | P | Mike Pelfrey | 26 |
| 17 | P | R.A. Dickey | 35 |
| 18 | P | Hisanori Takahashi* | 35 |
| 19 | P | Raul Valdes* | 32 |
| 20 | P | Oliver Perez* | 28 |
| 21 | P | Bobby Parnell | 25 |
| 22 | P | Manny Acosta# | 29 |
| 23 | P | Francisco Rodriguez | 28 |
| 24 | P | Pedro Feliciano* | 33 |
| 25 | P | Elmer Dessens | 39 |
Think about it, we came into 2010 hoping to compete with a rotation of Santana, Pelfrey, Perez, Maine and Niese.
A bullpen of KRod, Feliciano, Mejia, Igarashi, Takahashi, Nieve and Green.
A starting infield of C/Barajas, 3B/Wright, SS/Reyes, 2B/Castillo, LF/Bay, RF/Francoeur, 1B/Murphy (before he got hurt), CF/Beltran (once he returned).
Now as we head to the end of 2010 the Mets look to have a future that includes Thole, Davis and Pagan as part of the nucleus to go along with Wright, Reyes, Santana, Pelfrey, and KRod.
| Rk | Pos | Age | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1B | Ike Davis* | 23 |
| 2 | SS | Jose Reyes# | 27 |
| 3 | 3B | David Wright | 27 |
| 4 | LF | Jason Bay | 31 |
| 5 | CF | Angel Pagan# | 28 |
| 6 | C | Josh Thole* | 23 |
| 7 | SP | Johan Santana* | 31 |
| 8 | SP | Jonathon Niese* | 23 |
| 9 | SP | Mike Pelfrey | 26 |
| 10 | SP | R.A. Dickey | 35 |
| 11 | RP | Francisco Rodriguez | 28 |
To quote DirtySanchez “every rebuilding team has a good nucleus that you rebuild around…” so the Mets while trying to compete they also rebuilt around a already good nucleus in the hopes that they made it better.
Another thing that is associated with rebuilding is that rebuilding sometimes comes attached with losing. If you look at the 2010 season I think you can see that the Mets have indeed been losing.
Now here comes 2011. The Mets will be counting on Santana, Pelfrey, Niese, KRod, Wright, Reyes, Bay, Pagan, Thole and Davis to be the nucleus that the rest of the team is built around with names like Mejia, FMart, Nieuwenhuis, Flores and even a Havens trying to become a part of that ever-growing nucleus.
You say Rebuild I say Retool take your pick looks very much the same to me.
40 comments
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-8:20pm at 8:20 pm (UTC -4)
it all depends on how much the Mets are willing to spend this offseason.
If they are willing to cut Ollie and replace him with at least a #3 SP, if they are willing to replace Castillo with a 2B (who isnt a below avg hitter) aka Uribe, if they are willing to spend the money on an 8th inning guy and not hope and pray for one of his minor league deals to work.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-8:23pm at 8:23 pm (UTC -4)
Call it what you will, but this team is not in need of a whole roster overhaul. To take Houston as my local example, they had like 3 good people entirely, and nothing much else. Selling those guys off to get numbers of better people back is what i call rebuilding. Having multiple pieces on your team, you only need a retool. That very well may mean trading one big name to bring in 2 other pieces, but not stripping out the whole team. Even if you traded Wright, but got back a solid Pitching prospect (major league ready) and 2 good minor leaguers while having a 3B in the wings I could see that happening. Now, this is totally hypothetical, so my plan isn’t a real one, but you get the premise that I’m going with. -1 big guy for 3 decent guys in order to better the whole team. I could see that for the Mets, but not a house cleaning.
trs86
8/9/2010-8:52pm at 8:52 pm (UTC -4)
Even that is rebuilding. Any trade of Reyes or Wright signals rebuilding to me. You can trade Beltran and retool. I can’t see that with Reyes and Wright.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-8:58pm at 8:58 pm (UTC -4)
I see your point, and maybe not best to use wright as an example. My point was trading a big guy for better filler and a decent player. Maybe a Pelf (if SP wasn’t such a hole)? Maybe that is Pagan? Or Fmart? Who has true value to a team, other than the kids?
trs86
8/9/2010-9:03pm at 9:03 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think you can trade Pagan right now because to me he is part of the future. Not saying CORE but for sure part of the future. A team that is looking at a lot of committed money can not afford to trade above league average production that makes nothing.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:14pm at 9:14 pm (UTC -4)
Then who do they really have to trade? Beltran and… and…
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
And not being snarky on this, just saying. There really isn’t much for a “retool”. it’s pretty much signing only.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:33pm at 9:33 pm (UTC -4)
I think you can retool without trading.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:43pm at 9:43 pm (UTC -4)
leaving a giant gaping hole at 2B and no 8th inning guy is a terrible job of retooling though…
trs86
8/9/2010-9:47pm at 9:47 pm (UTC -4)
Are we talking this year or next year?
You don’t have to spend a lot of money to retool the BP.
Either way, what does that have to do with who you are trading?
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:49pm at 9:49 pm (UTC -4)
this offseason
trs86
8/9/2010-8:50pm at 8:50 pm (UTC -4)
NJ..tx has it.
Rebuild means the team needs a roster overhaul. Retool says the team needs a little help.
If I need to retool the Mets I am looking to trade Beltran and spend that money on talent that can replace his production either though pitching or hitting.
If I am rebuilding, I am trading Beltran for prospects as a salary dump and starting Pagan and Fmart. If I am retooling then perhaps I sign Gritty McHudson for 2B while Havens develops. If I am rebuilding I just throw Havens out and hope for the best. If I am rebuilding I have no intentions of winning next season. If I retool I am expecting to compete. Differences seem pretty clear to me.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-8:53pm at 8:53 pm (UTC -4)
i agree, im just skeptical that they will spend the money needed to retool…
trs86
8/9/2010-9:02pm at 9:02 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t need but about 15M to get what we need. We don’t have as many holes this off-season as we did last off-season. With 1B having a guy, RF having Pagan, Niese and Dickey…
2B, backup/league average catcher, 1 mid-rotation pitcher, BP help. That’s about it.
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-9:10pm at 9:10 pm (UTC -4)
4-5 mil for dickey for 2 years?
Catcher at 1 mil, assuming 50/50 split with thole or less.
2B at… 2 mil maybe?
BP, figure 3 for 2-3 guys?
5 mil – 7 for the mid rotation guy (maybe less)?
trs86
8/9/2010-9:13pm at 9:13 pm (UTC -4)
I expect the Mets to spend about 10-15M on SP next year. That may or may not include Dickey. 2B, I am not sure they spend, even if they release Castillo they may go in house. Catcher I would assume it’s a guy like Barajas at .5. BP I don’t expect much money to be spent there.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:31pm at 9:31 pm (UTC -4)
thats the problem. The Mets have the worst offensive production from 2B in the major leagues and i dont care how good Tejada might be with the glove, he is such a liability with the glove.
granted Tejada might get better in this audition but if he doesnt they have to go with someone who can hit.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:35pm at 9:35 pm (UTC -4)
such a liability at the plate, that is
whataputz
8/9/2010-9:17pm at 9:17 pm (UTC -4)
If they can somehow free up some money or Wilpon decides to add some payroll so people actually come to Citi past Mid July I think there is a guy in this free agent class who is exactly what the mets have so desperately needed.
His name is Prince Fielder. I understand he may be expensive, but since Delgado went down we have been desperately needing an actual power hitter. Hell, I’d love to sign Dunn if he is cheaper.
Trade Beltran for whoever will take him and either just try and save some dough or take in a pitcher that is a little cheaper.
Trade Davis to KC for Soria. Maybe try to see if they can pry Greinke, and if they can I’m down to go all in and put up some serious prospects…but work with KC with Davis and one of the two big pitchers they have.
re-sign Dickey and somehow try to get a pitcher..maybe in the Beltran deal, maybe in another deal like I mentioned up there.
Thoughts?
the roster might look something like this
SS- Reyes
2b- tejada
3b- Wright
1b- Fielder/Dunn
c- Thole/barajas or blanco backing up
cf- Pagan
Lf- Bay
Rf- F-mart
sp
Johan
Neise
Pelf
dickey
Greinke/ pitcher from Beltran trade
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:27pm at 9:27 pm (UTC -4)
no chance. Ike is not going anyway…
trs86
8/9/2010-9:34pm at 9:34 pm (UTC -4)
Not sure Fielder is a FA.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:40pm at 9:40 pm (UTC -4)
Am I missing something? I am pretty sure Fielder is under contract for 2011. It’s an arbitration year but they are not going to just move on.
prismo
8/9/2010-9:50pm at 9:50 pm (UTC -4)
2011 is his 3rd/last arbitration year before he hits FA.
I guess whata thinks we could trade for him? It would take a lot…
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:37pm at 9:37 pm (UTC -4)
and they have Billy Butler at 1B, no need for Ike.
unless the Wilpons sell the team, Ike is going to be a career NYM unless he flames out…
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
It’s out of the box, so i like the thought. Using Ike as a trade chip would be about the best the mets have other than Niese. Knowing Prince is not a FA, Dunn would be the guy. But you’d have to add $$$ though, which I think is the opposite of how they should be going.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-10:07pm at 10:07 pm (UTC -4)
Adam Dunn is the worst clutch hitter in baseball and is the worst defensive 1B in the game. He would be an absolute failure here in NY.
Id rather have Ike anyday of the week…
njstuckintx
8/9/2010-10:15pm at 10:15 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed, trading Ike is not really an option, but I like Whataputz’s outside the box solution (complete with lineup!).
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-9:24pm at 9:24 pm (UTC -4)
I posted this because both trs and dirty made interesting points in their discussion that made me wonder why does rebuild have to be trading everyone? what percentage of the roster being moved is considered rebuilding as opposed to retooling? what start player can or cant be traded so one knows if you are rebuilding or retooling?
I don’t dismiss either point of view but I lean more toward Dirty’s perspective on it.
Now as to TRS’s argument that we don’t have as many holes this off season I will need a bit of convincing on.
We still don’t have a legit #2.
We still need a corner outfielder.
We still don’t have a 8th inning setup man.
These were all concerns last season.
You want to say we have a starting 1st baseman? OK but keep in mind the book is still out on what Davis can do in 2011? I will not jump the gun and start penciling Davis in to be anything other than a good fielding 1st baseman with some pop. I’ve seen to much expectations cast upon kids only to be let down.
Let’s see if these kids we call Niese, Davis, Thole can step their game up and continue to improve. I am still waitin on Pelfrey to get it together for one full season. 2010 was the closest he came to doing it maybe 2011 he does it.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:28pm at 9:28 pm (UTC -4)
i think .265 24 HR 85 RBI are reasonable expectations…
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-9:30pm at 9:30 pm (UTC -4)
I had that for Bay this season and look at what he did.
Again I will not jump the gun I welcome others to do that.
oleosmirf
8/9/2010-9:35pm at 9:35 pm (UTC -4)
thats around what I had too but Ike is on pace to get 20 HR this season and he’s done it as a Met.
you have every right to be skeptical but what we do know is the power is there…
trs86
8/9/2010-9:36pm at 9:36 pm (UTC -4)
Not saying Davis will be great. Saying we do not need a 1B and what we have is great is also 2 different things. Ike will be the 1B next year so that’s not a hole. LOL.
As for corner OF, why do we need one of those again? Unless you are actually trading Beltran then you have one in Beltran/Pagan.
I mentioned SP and BP.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-9:40pm at 9:40 pm (UTC -4)
True about OF. I guess I’m already writing off Beltran and penciled Pagan in CF next season.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
Well then Beltran is in RF. LOL. Unless they actually go through with my trade him please idea. Either way, IF Beltran is here he produces more than Frenchy.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:38pm at 9:38 pm (UTC -4)
Rebuild means the team needs a roster overhaul. Retool says the team needs a little help.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
i heard you the 1st time.
trs86
8/9/2010-9:45pm at 9:45 pm (UTC -4)
1st for everything.
Mr North Jersey
8/9/2010-9:50pm at 9:50 pm (UTC -4)
ohh k.
stickguy
8/9/2010-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
I like the distinction that rebuilding is giving up on a couple of years (build a new foundation) and retooling this making changes on top of the core (mostly) to try and win. Alteration s if you will.
But, in each case, you are making some structural changes. A rebuild would be Wright and Santana traded for AA prospects. Retooling is trading beltran, releasing Castillo, stuff like that. More of a remodel.
and how about a 3rd option: reloading. basically keep the same team, but just replace the guys that moved on with new ones to try and keep the line moving. For the Mets, maybe that is a FA or 2 for the pen?
metsfan4decades
8/9/2010-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
You say tomato, I say tomato…
I guess I’m going with TRS’s terminology here.
To me, rebuilds means we’re breaking up the core, seeing what we can get back, and starting over.
Retooling means we’re keeping the core, getting rid of deadwood and getting the complimentary pieces, support pieces, whatever you’d like to call it, to go with the core.
Either way, rolling the dice and keeping your fingers crossed, much like we did with MOP coming into the season, better not be mindset again. If so, I think we’re in for another long year.
It might have taken 3 or 4 years, but let’s hope the FO learned something since 2007 and realize maintaining the status quo isn’t taking us to the promised land.