In light of the latest Met controversy, are you willing to let K-Rod off the hook? Do you think the Mets should keep him on the team this year or next year? Does he deserve a second chance?
Aug 15
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I would of bet... } –
42 comments
stickguy
8/15/2010-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
well, I guess the only way the fans can actually let him off the hook is to not boo, so that will be your barameter.
It is also only partly up to the team as to punishment/second chances. That seems to be driven by the player’s association and the MLB office. So if they say he can play, not much the mets can do about it (in terms of suspension).
personally, yes he ges a 2nd chance. As long as the legal system isn’t preventing him, he got a punishment from the team (could have been longer, and may possibly get another one depending on what happens). What he did was not good, but none of us really know exactly what happened, He was though charged with the lowest level charges they cold hit him with it seems.
So I expect his slap on the wrist and apology is it, and he stays with the team, based on performance. Unless the wilpons want to make a zero tolerance statement and try to trade him, even though it obviously will mean a terrible return (like eating a ton of money to get some mediocre prospects back).
I hope he either has a monster year and leads them to the WS, or goes on the DL before he gets 55 GFs so we can move on by 2012.
stickguy
8/15/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
slightly reltated to the topic (I guess), Sherman has a hack piece today in th epost painting doom and gloom for the (I know, shocker). Some valid points about payroll commitments, combined with hyperbole and illogical conclusions.
anyway, one of the comments (especially the 2nd paragraph) to it for some reason I find hysterical. And vaguely TKish.
Tom Cullen
08/15/2010 9:11 AM
The Mets should be blown-up into a billion tiny pieces and scattered to the four winds. However, that is NOT going change or improve things – not when you have stupidity, incompetence, and a social agenda still making the rebuilding decisions.
But they STILL should be blown-up anyway – just so we can have a different cast of losers, Mexican League rejects, and malcontents to be disgusted with next year. I’m sick of hating this particular bunch – give me some new faces to go with the mediocrity and losing.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
well is he not right?
wannybackstra
8/15/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
I didn’t see any hyperbole or illogical conclusions in Sherman’s article. His article notes the Mets salary commitments for next season and his conclusion is that the team will be essentially the same as this year’s team because of the salary restraints. He wonders how this team could magically become championship contenders next season.
Doesn’t seem illogical.
He also states his opinion that the current rotation is not championship caliber and wonders what will be if it is not as good next season as this.
He also notes that Beltran and Reyes have been unhealthy and unreliable for two seasons and Wright wildly inconsistent.
All seems pretty accurate to me.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
exactly see I consider Niese + Diese to be an unknown going into next season while most consider their success to be pretty much guaranteed.
stickguy
8/15/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
of course there are no guarantees. But at the same time, after a full season of performance to look at, I certainly don’t consider them unknowns either.
Now, if they decide to start mejia (which IMO will not happen), that would be an unknown!
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
well just like Pelfrey’s 2009, i dont see why a sophomore slump for Niese isnt possible
stickguy
8/15/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
neise isn’t a big spaz
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
no but a sophomore slump is certainly reasonable. I would think Niese would only have a small dropoff but him repeating his 2010 numbers are certainly not a guarantee by any stretch.
stickguy
8/15/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
still overly negative and dramatic IMO. he does a couple things I don’t like. 1 is assuming that every player under contract has to (or will be) on the team, and that is not true. Guys can get moved. Even if you swap bad contracts, it can at least fill a hole for no more $.
The other is predicting/assuming the worst, then making your agguement based on that. He almost sounds like he is being gracious for even allowing that neise “might” be an OK 4th starter.
ONe thing that I notice with NY writers especially is yankee blindness. That is, they compare your roster to the yankees, and if it isn’t as good, then you are by default not championship quality. I don’t know exactly how good they
will be next year, but if Neise and the dickster can reasonably approximate what they are doing this year, and 1 more legit solid SP guy is added, then yes, they will be good enough to compete in the playoffs.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
well in addition to the rotation you are also assuming the Mets don’t have a black hole in Tejada/Castillo at 2B, Beltran doesnt struggle and is healthy, Bay bounces back, Reyes doesnt get hurt, Wright finds consistency, Ike improves, we have an 8th inning guy and we have a good manager/coaching staff.
thats a lot more question marks than the other “contenders”
metsfan4decades
8/15/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
But what are the salary constraints? Does anyone actually know what the Wilpons can and/or are willing to spend?
All these articles I’m reading are just conjecture at this point. If, over the off season and by opening day that payroll stands at about 120 million, then I’ll have to agree those speculating were correct. Because I don’t think I’ll be buying ‘we didn’t spend b/c we don’t think the talent out there is any better than what we have’ argument again.
And if that is really Omar’s opinion, then all the more reason to reassign him and get a new GM in here.
stickguy
8/15/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
well, it pretty much caqn’t be 120m next year. Unless the Mets can trade some of the big $ contracts and get salary releif out of the deal.
and looking at the guys making a lot, which ones do you see going (for prospects/cheap players) with the other team taking on the salary differential?
K Rod
Santana
bay
Ollie
Slappy
Wright
Reyes
Beltran.
Those are the guys that make all the money. Sure, they can free up (and will) smaller amounts by DFAing Frenchy and maine, and hopefully having Feliciano walk after being offered arb.
But if the mets want payroll down to 120, they are going to have to get rid of some of those guys without taking back salary.
And frankly, that means trading reyes or wright.
Your call on whether that happens.
I dont expect it, so figure that next year they keep payroll around the same level, even if they have to take a loss (or make cuts elsewhere) to do it.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
i’d be shocked if Feliciano declined arbitration. This RP market is extremely deep.
hazmet
8/15/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
1. Willing to let K-Rod off the hook? Never had him on the hook, couldn’t care less about this other than the legal implications costing him time. As for it being another embarrasement to the franchise well by this time I’m used to it. Sad statement I know but this show need’s to be dismantled. As for the act can any of us honestly say we haven’t felt like slugging an in law or prospective in law at some point in time? K-Rod is volatile and acted on his emotions, I don’t know what was said or any other particulars that’s for the law to sort out as far as the incident. For all I know the guy asked him to go in for a 4 out save and he snapped.
2. Keep him or trade him? I’d be open to trading him or any other commodity on the team based on baseball performance not on this incident. Depends what they’d get back.
3. Does he deserve a second chance. As per the dialogue at the end of Unforgiven
“I don’t deserve this, I was building a house” – G. Hackman
“Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with this” – C. Eastwood, and he shoots him
Deserve’s got nothing to do with anything he’s going to have his second, third, fourth chance until his arm falls off (aka shot). That’s the way of baseball (ie S. Howe and other’s)
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
yea he’ll get booed for a little, then people will turn their attention to more important things
kingman 26
8/15/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
We don’t have any idea about the history here, and KRod MIGHT not be the only hothead in this situation. And if the girlfriend’s father was publicly telling off KRod’s Mom? Uh, if someone was doing that to MY Mom, they would have a serious problem.
I don’t know enough about it, and neither do any of the rest of us.
As for Sherman’s gloom-and-doom, of course that’s what he is going to write. The NY Post? LOL!
However, he does make some good points, all of which point to the absolute necessity of making the right choice for manager, which, to me, has to mean Backman, Teufel, or Bobby V, all guys who know this city, have had success here, and would clearly change the culture instantly.
But Sherman’s comments about specific players are not to be taken seriously, any more than anything else in the Post is.
To take just one particularly silly example, his rationale as to why we should not count on Dickey is precisely why we SHOULD count on his continuing to excel. Mastering the knuckler is next to impossible, and unless he forgets what he has done all year, he should be at least a very reliable 3 or 4 for years to come.
The payroll surely will not increase, we will not see another huge FA signing, and we must indeed hope for huge improvement from Wright, Reyes, Bay, and Beltran. But the entire key is the youngsters and the new manager. Which is why the new manager should have been hired already.
stickguy
8/15/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
what he said.
And why not look at the bright side? The Mets are going to have 2 SPs in the rotation next year (I am assuming Dickey is back, at least through arb) for a combined relative ittance (a few million for dickey, and minimum wage or so for neise) that threw 1 hit CGs this year. That doesn’t sound so hideous to me.
and like Knog said, I don’t care what DIckey was or did 5 years ago. I only care what he can do with his recently perfected arsenal.
Now, if they can trade some of the prospect load to Tampa for garza (not sheilds, why do those 2 keep getting lumped together?), they could have a very, very good rotation.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-2:50pm at 2:50 pm (UTC -4)
they are lumped together b/c the Rays HAVE to get rid of one of them, and the contracts are relatively the same.
now you might prefer one or the other but regardless, both guys easily become our #2 SP.
stickguy
8/15/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
garza maybe, but sheilds is not that good
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
Shields easily becomes our #2 SP. Sure his ERA is high this season but he also plays in the best offensive division in baseball and gives up lots and lots of HR.
move him to Citi field and those 2 troubles are gone and you have a strikeout pitcher who throws 215+ IP with an ERA under 4. Thats basically what you want from your #2 SP…
TRS86
8/15/2010-6:11pm at 6:11 pm (UTC -4)
Tell me why they HAVE to get rid of Garza ANY time soon?
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-8:02pm at 8:02 pm (UTC -4)
they dont have to trade Garza. they HAVE to trade Garza or Shields or Price or Nieman or Davis.
why must you ask? b/c they have top prospect Jeremy Hellickson already pitching like he belongs in the MLB so they need to open a spot in the rotation.
trading Nieman Price or Davis makes no sense so by process of elimination the small market Rays would trade Garza or Shields who are due to make raises this season.
Ceetar
8/15/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I agree.. K-Rod’s a violent hothead, but he’s not exactly out of control. If those quotes are correct (That the FIL insulted his mother and told him to “man up” in a game he wasn’t (but should have been) involved in) than I really don’t have a ton of animosity towards him. He _did_ ask him to come outside the family room, it’s not like he stormed into the room, no questions asked, and just started wailing on the guy while winking at Reyes’ kids saying “This is how you treat your wife’s father when you grow up!”
metsfan4decades
8/15/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Bah….KRod. 27 year old hot head who doesn’t control his temper, no matter how justified or provoked he was. Not very smart, but hardly the first and won’t be the last.
Given the Wilpons even with all their conservative talk of sportsmanship and high ethics, knowing obviously $$ is more the driving factor, the only way KRod isn’t on this team come opening day is if he’s in jail…
This is just one example though of what this team’s perception has been for the past 4 years. It’s one thing after another both on and off field. To me, the only way to start turning this all around is changes at the top. The Wilpons are here to stay. Omar should go. Reassign him, fire him, whatever…..just get someone else in here to start trying to turn this ship around. It’s not going to be easy and it isn’t going to happen overnight but you have to start there, with a new GM.
I want to see Omar gone more than I do Jerry, at this point. That single change should have far more reaching results than just changing the coaches. Omar was/is responsible for the construction of this team and was responsible for many of the off field distractions as well. It’s time for him to go.
stickguy
8/15/2010-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that Omar needs to be reassigned before any of the rebuilding work starts. Might be afraid of the replacement (especially if it is a bigger role for jeffy), but it needs to happen. Not that jerry doesn’t need to go too!
I don’t relaly pay much attention to the off the field stuff. Or should say, I don’t really care. It is background noise mostly.
Like most fans, I care about the talent on the field and wins. If they are winning, off the field can be a giant circus (’86 mets, the Bronx zoo, etc.).
If the mets were 15 games in front right now, would anyone do more than laugh if Omar and Jeffy were caught in John Milner’s van, dressed up like naughty schoolgirls, having a romp with a couple of hookers?
metsfan4decades
8/15/2010-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
Yes…also because if payroll is down, in order to field a competitive team the GM is probably going to have to be very ‘creative’. Anyone have confidence Omar can get that done? I know I don’t anymore. I’ve seen enough samples.
He might not be responsible for all the results (buy the quality tools but the finished product is a result of the skill of the operator) in other words, there was nothing at all to indicate Bay would have such a down year as he’s having this year.
But 4-5 years is long enough. He’s had his chance. Time for a new direction.
rustyjr
8/15/2010-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
its funny i asked kevin kernan from the post on twitter last night if the press might be to hard on the mets and he replied
No I think the Mets write the negative columns themselves, if they were in 1st like the Yankees it would be a different story
Ceetar
8/15/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
It’s all perception. If Derek Jeter struggles, it’s because he’s slumping but he’s always “hitting it hard” and “about to break out”
when David Wright struggles it’s “He’s really not that good.” “Beaning affecting him” “Not a leader.”
stickguy
8/15/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
well, Wright is that good (proven over his career). and being a leader might be nice, but absolutely irrelevant to how he is playing.
THe beaning issue? Now that we really will never be sure of how big an impact it has.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
or b/c he is too damn stubborn/scared to stand closer to the plate despite the fact that it is CLEARLY the cause of his problems.
GravediggerHebner
8/15/2010-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
The pool of baseball players is in some ways a cross section of society albeit a cross section in the vacuum of Major League Baseball. There are people we all know in our personal lives that live their lives across the spectrum of behavior (whether we actually know that about them or they are successful in keeping some of their behavior from us is largely irrelevant).
There’s a guy a couple cubicles away from you that beats his wife. There’s a guy down the hall who is a Big Brother. The kid sitting to your right on the bus sets abandoned buildings on fire, the kid sitting on your left is in the church choir. Baseball locker rooms are similarly diverse.
I’m disappointed that KRod slugged his F-I-L but I don’t know the whole story (I have both deliberately avoided articles about it and doubt they tell the full tale anyway). I would like to think he could channel his anger differently and maybe this episode will lead to that.
I just want him to save games. And that’s a change for me in recent years. I used to be vehemently against Barry Bonds and the idea of him coming to the Mets when that was a topic. But I’ve now come around to the concept that if I want to root for a team of saints I can probably go and find a team of saints to root for somewhere.
I root for the Mets and I want the Mets to win games. I am now largely but not completely able to separate that from what any Mets or potential Mets do off the field whether they be Barry Bonds or Brett Myers or KRod.
I also understand and respect that other people may have a different set of values and see these people, these athletes, in a different light and I do not care to try to make them see these things any differently than they do I am merely stating the way I see them.
Ceetar
8/15/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
I agree to a point. I think there is a difference between shrugging off the bad people on your own team, and actively avoiding adding guys like to the team (ala Brett Myers)
rustyjr
8/15/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
remember what happened after the mets tried to put together a team of saints ( 91-95?) that too blew up in the front office face
wannybackstra
8/15/2010-4:51pm at 4:51 pm (UTC -4)
how did reggie bush get on to a team of saints?
GravediggerHebner
8/15/2010-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
My take on Sherman’s article is that while it is a tad too provocative the underlying message strikes me as right on.
The current mix of talent and contract on the roster combined with what is arriving or about to arrive from the minors is not championship caliber nor is it conducive to subtle adjustment that would make it so in my opinion.
The team appears to be set up for 2011 yet again in “hope the teams around us falter while simultaneously hoping that everything breaks right for us” mode and while that can be successful the odds are against it.
rustyjr
8/15/2010-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
the Mets have been playing that card since ’07 the only way it will change is if we get a gm with a stronger back boned and a outspoken manager.
andone thinks that Jeff Wilpon will listen to Wally Backman ( if he is the next manager) and get him what he says he needs?
TRS86
8/15/2010-6:18pm at 6:18 pm (UTC -4)
I just think that we make a bigger deal out of owners and management and not enough on the manager and players . Yes they are the ones that picked them but we have said over and over we have enough talent. No the SP was not strong enough but it turns that it was our strongest point. The roster does not need a major overhaul. It needs holes filled. Sure I want Beltran, Ollie, Castillo all gone. But I don’t think Ollie or Castillo are here with or without Omar. Hopefully the Mets pursue trading Beltran but it’s not a death sentence if they don’t.
All this budge talk makes me laugh. People said that this year’s payroll was going to go down significantly and it did not. It’s within 3-5M of last years. If Omar is here we will sign FA, hell regardless of Omar we will sign a big FA. That’s the Mets way. I think we just need to see what transpires. Get rid of Ollie, Castillo, Jerry, Hojo and fill in the holes and see what happens. If that still does not produce then it’s time for drastic measures of trading Reyes/ Wright and going through a REAL dark period.
oleosmirf
8/15/2010-8:06pm at 8:06 pm (UTC -4)
we DONT have enough talent. We have enough premium talent at most of the positions but that gets offset by having the worst talent at the remaining positions.
until Omar realizes that there are other options besides minor league deals and huge contracts, the huge disparity in talent will remain.
GravediggerHebner
8/15/2010-9:28pm at 9:28 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know what your source for Mets payroll information is. I don’t doubt it or you I simply don’t know what it is. What mine and what I imagine most people’s is would be Cot’s contracts Opening Day payroll which is:
2009: $149 million
2010: $126 million
So again not knowing what figures you’re using, going by what is readily available to me, I think the difference is a bit more than $3-5 million.
TRS86
8/15/2010-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
Check out the spreadsheets. Cots did not take off the Sheff money for 2009. On the spreadsheet it shows 139 after taking off Sheff’s 10M. Now add 8.5M to this year’s salary for Bay’s signing bonus that was paid upfront. That brings you to about 136 for 2010 and 139 for 2009.
wannybackstra
8/15/2010-9:41pm at 9:41 pm (UTC -4)
we have enough talent?