The Mets are most clearly part of this writer’s DNA. Baby pictures show a tiny Kingman wearing Met clothes in the late 60s, 1970 saw this writer’s first trip to Shea, and the 1973 postseason was the beginning of what remains a very serious addiction 37 years later.
Following minor league stars has been a big part of this, and the Kingman family has watched with gleeful anticipation as players from Mike Vail to Mookie/Wally/Hubie to Darryl and Doc to Ike and Jennry have made their progress through the system.
Watching Jose Reyes was most definitely a large milepost along this long and often rewarding road. Jose was an injury-prone young player, who the Mets did their best to ruin with a ridiculous move to 2B, but he persevered and became a fine everyday player in 2005, and an incredibly productive player for the wondrous 3-year period of 2006-2008.
So while Jose has been a favorite here as well as elsewhere, the last two years have seen a tremendous regression in pretty much every way one can measure such things, for the team and for its leadoff table-setter.
Jose has spent two years battling injuries, and has been a shadow of the 2006-2008 Jose when he has been healthy and played regularly. And, in the true fashion of the luck and timing of everything for the Mets the last few years, the Mets must now begin debating whether or not to sign Jose to the huge, long-term deal he will clearly demand and receive from someone.
Is this the time to sign Jose to a huge deal? Or time to think about a trade?
When next year begins, it will be 3 years since Jose was among the game’s more productive players. The injuries which marred Jose’s early years have returned, and have clearly diminished his game.
In addition, Jose has shown himself to be far from an ideal team player. He pouted when switched to the 3rd spot in the order, and made it pretty clear that he would only be happy leading off. His OBP–never better than pretty good at best–is a mere .321 this season. This is awful for a leadoff hitter. Indeed, Jose has never topped .360 in OBP, even in the minors.
Jose’s terrible admission that he simply plays the game in a way which does not allow concentration on every pitch–and seemingly using this as an excuse for his inconsistent defense–speaks quite poorly to Jose’s mental makeup, in-game focus and overall intelligence.
Many fans like to pair Jose and David Wright as big reasons for the team’s failure to win and the collapses of 2007 and 2008. A look at the stats shows that while Jose did indeed disappear in Sept./Oct. of those two years, Wright did not, and was actually very productive.
Finally, “Jose being Jose” often means tolerating his much-debated antics. Jose’s huge grin and mini-dance for a September HR against the horrific Pirates after the team has long been finished is, alas, a pretty perfect picture of the player Jose is. Would he be homering if we were tied with the Phils and playing them?
So what to do?
It certainly is very, very possible that 2011 could see Jose begin another stretch similar to 2006-2008, especially as he will be chasing his first really massive contract. But even if he does do this, is this the right player to invest something like a 5/90 deal in, or whatever Jose will demand/command?
It says here that while keeping Jose would not be a terrible move, that exploring a deal might be in this team’s best interests. Surely there would be a team out there which would offer a very attractive package for a player with Jose’s history, especially considering his age and the fact that they would only be committed to one year and $11 million at this point. This would also make teams with lesser payrolls among those who might make nice offers.
Regardless of what the most “optimistic” fans might say, Jose has definitely never shown himself to be a leader. He is not a very mature player, he does not heal quickly, and he is not willing to make changes for the sake of the team.
Is this a player the team should risk yet another massive, long-term deal for? Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner, KRod, Johan, Bay—every one of the Mets’ big name, big money acquisitions has spent significant time on the DL while the team has floundered. In a time of clearly lowered payroll, is Jose the right guy to risk a huge amount of resources on?
In addition, at this point it is pretty much beyond debate that a change of culture is needed in the team’s clubhouse, and all signs point to Jose as being someone who is very unlikely to lead a sea change in what many, many pieces of evidence have suggested is a very complacent group which is indeed insufficiently aggravated by all that has befallen this team over the last four years.
Jose Reyes should not be given away or dumped as the Cards gave us Keith or as the cash-strapped Marlins gave us Mike Piazza. But the time has come for a serious exploration of what can be obtained in a trade for Jose. If the right package does not come along, then we can certainly keep this very good player, hope he returns to form in 2011, and then also hope that he will then be willing to re-sign here. Which is, of course, another big question which helps to make considering trading him easier. Do we want to take the risk of possibly losing Jose for nothing after next year?
Angel Pagan can replace Jose as leadoff hitter, and while he might not be as explosive as Jose was from 2006-2008, Pagan is a very solid player, who has successfully become a very productive everyday player in all ways–numbers, hustle, and making his 2009 on-field blunders nothing but a distant memory.
So the feeling here is that one could indeed make a case that it is time to explore trading Jose Reyes. But if–and only if–the team can receive a serious package of players, which must include at least one blue-chip top prospect or one established, young, productive major leaguer.
32 comments
metsfan4decades
9/20/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
You could make a case that’s it time to deal anyone – doesn’t mean it’s the right move.
Those in favor of trading Reyes make a case citing he’s immature, he won’t ever reach the potential desired, he’s peaked, he doesn’t concentrate, he can’t stay healthy – in short, he’s a nice little player but no star.
In the next breath those same folks go on to say ‘there would be a team out there which would offer a very attractive package for a player with Jose’s history’ and similar mindsets.
Giving the ‘history’ Reye’s dectractors cite as the very reason it’s time for a trade, what make us think any GM who bought into those same reasons we should dump him, would offer anything remotely of value back?
If indeed those in the camp of ‘trade Reyes’ are right, then don’t expect back any kind of attractive package. GMs are usually loathe to give up more than they’re getting back.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t cite all these reasons it’s time to move on from Reyes but then market him as some kind of star to other GMs to attempt to fleece them out of top prospects, other stars or multiple good players.
In short, I’m in the camp of Reyes is worth more to the NY Mets right now than anything we’re likely to get back for him at this point in his career.
TRS86
9/20/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
Exactly, think about what the Braves got back for Escobar who had much longer on his contract and was a much cheaper contract to start with.
njstuckintx
9/20/2010-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
I hear you on the fact we want to see a better overall team. I hear you that Jose has regressed from his crazy 2006-2008 numbers. I hear you that a change does feel in order. But this has classic Mets Mentality of Sell Low/Buy High. I can’t get the feeling out of my head that the current brain trust would get nickles on the dollar back on Jose if they tried to flip him for someone.
Also, if he does decide to bolt, he would command type A status, no?
Yes, If I could, any player subtracted that brings back a net gain is something worth exploring. Options should always be mulled over, as you just never know. Do I think a better option will present itself… No.
TRS86
9/20/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
Bingo. Should they explore it? Yes. Should they do it? Most likely not. I can’t see the return being great enough to justify it. At this point I am not sure he even brings the equivalent of 2 1st round picks. Obviously not when you add another year of production and ticket sales.
stickguy
9/20/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
no, not a good idea to trade him. Although I will say that your creative way of twising his career makes it seem that you are qualified to write for a NY tabloid!
My biggest question is how people that are crying to rebuild want to get rid of a 27 YO that is still one of the best at the position (and where there are no, zero, nada options in the system to replace him with).
Reyes is playing very well now that he is back. Will he stay healthy next year? Quite likely. His issues this year are not chronic, like Bletrans knee, so there is no reason to assume that if he trains correctly that they will recur.
I am not advocating giving him a SOrriano contract, but if they can work out a reasonable extension this off season (to buy out his option and say 3 years after, 4 at the most) that only commits them until age 31-32. Not super risky.
besides, like MF said, how much can you get for a guy on a 1 year deal, coming off an injury marred year (although other than a career abnormal OBP< he is putting up good numbers?)
Explore it sure, but if you are getting low balls only, keep him. and build around.
27 is normally the age where players are supposed to hit their prime, and put up a few seasons of by far their best production. People forget that DW and JR were here so young, that they are only know about to enter this prime (where guys like utley and howard were already close to it when they became regulars).
kingman 26
9/20/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
What was twisted even remotely?
No matter how many repeat it, he is NOT playing very well.
His OBP is .321. His fielding is not close to what it once was. His attitude sucks.
A .321 OBP is a joke for a leadoff hitter.
stickguy
9/20/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
he had 5 straight years of an OBP in the mid-.350 range. THis year is an outlier.
you are also looking too much at what he was doing (fielding) with a strained side muscle, where he should not have even been playing (thanks, jerry).
And the concentration issue that you build so much on is just plain silly, and was taken out of context.
But, feel free to enjoy the season with Ruben Tejada as the starting SS, while Jose rebounds with Boston as a dynamic force.
njstuckintx
9/20/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
I will say this, if Having Jose flourish in Boston meant that Lester or something comparable + someone came to the Mets, I’d consider it for sure.
Being all crazy and such, Pagan, Murphy (@2B), Wright, Ike, Beltran, Bay, Thole, Tejada would work for me on the offense. Obviously an upgrade @ 2B wouldn’t be a bad thing, but the above would have sufficient offense (minus Tejada). I know this prob won’t happen and may not be viable, but hey, who likes to think inside of a box?
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
There’s just no way that you get that kind of talent for Reyes who only has one year left on his contract. None.
njstuckintx
9/20/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Oh, I know that. I’m just saying that if you get something well worth it for Reyes, you do it. I just threw out Lester as that was the first thing to come to mind and I wasn’t going throw out there serious hypothetical situations for something we know most likely will never happen.
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
I did that a little the other day. Looking at teams that would be interested and in a position to trade for him. I can’t see you getting any real proven young MLB player in return. Only prospects.
njstuckintx
9/20/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
And honestly, this team has a bunch of those (at least at the OF position. Seems to me they should consider letting some of their talent go to try and upgrade something (AKA a SP, some BP help, a 2B if you don’t think Tejada or Havens will be able to hack it).
Taking the Hanley/Beckett thing into consideration, Hanley, while a prospect, was pretty much a STUD prospect. I’m not sure we would get even one of those back for Reyes, given he’s a year away from FA, getting 11 mil this year and his recent injury/health issues. Please, Mets, Please do not SELL LOW!
TRS86
9/20/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Agreed and I can’t see how trading Reyes now would not be selling low.
Again will his return be more than 2 1st round picks, AND his production and ticket sales for 2011?
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
I hope it’s twisted considering that is the point of the piece. This series is “you could make a case….”. If you did not try and convince others of your view point and use stats to support your cause then what’s the point?
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
This was in reply to stick and support of the article. I would not look at twisted as a bad thing in this particular article.
metsfan4decades
9/20/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
He didn’t play well overall this year b/c he plain just was not healthy.
Missed ST, took a few weeks to get back to playing form, even when he did start. Had a nice run going until the first oblique injury. That same injury where he should have been on the DL, not attempting to play with his side completely tapped up. Pain got too much b/c it never healed properly. Sat out again and was told he wouldn’t play until he felt no pain – which is what they should have done to start with.
He’s back now pain free (so he says). Only problem is it’s Sep in a lost season.
I believe if Reyes is healthy next year, we’ll see his return to norm, which is some ridiculous stats on winning ballgames when he gets on base and scores.
The one I’m worried about is Wright. He was supposedly healthy these past two years – beaning aside. So what’s up with him? I can only hope a new batting coach can figure it out.
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Actually healthy or not his OBP is suffering because he is choosing to swing at every pitch that he thinks he can hit instead of waiting on the best pitch to swing at. He has a case of Frenchius.
metsfan4decades
9/20/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
You talking about Wright? If so, yeah, I’m seeing that.
What I’m also seeing is about a half dozen different batting stances/approaches at the plate this year. Deep in the box, middle of the box, bat behind his head, bat at shoulder level, etc.
It’s like he cannot figure out what works best, where he is having a problem and is trying anything and everything. Too much adjustments. Isn’t this where a good batting coach comes in?
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Jose Reyes, last 28 days: .208 .250 .396 .646
Career in September: .248 .306 .386 .692
2007: .205 .279 .333 .612
2008: .243 .314 .402 .715
2009: injured
2010: .244 .295 .488 .783
See a trend? Not saying we should trade him but we will need to make sure that trend is reversible before we think about signing him long-term.
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Actually I was talking about Reyes. LOL.
metsfan4decades
9/20/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Oh, LOL….
Yeah, lots to think about this off season.
Mr North Jersey
9/20/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
Sticking with the purpose of your post Kingman which is you can make a a case it’s time to trade Reyes. I think you achieved that purpose and made a case for it.
Congrats.
TRS86
9/20/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
CaseStreet
9/20/2010-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Even if we got a quality package in return (whatever that is), the lineup would be weakened. Plus, if the Mets are serious about replacing Castillo and also trade Reyes, they now have to find a 2B and SS with no good middle infield free agent’s available.
stickguy
9/20/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
just have tejada play SS and 2B. At the same time.
TRS86
9/20/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Which would basically be the effect of trading Reyes and keeping Castillo. LOL>
njstuckintx
9/20/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Maybe the Mets could sign Thome for his DH-ing skills and have Tejada show off his one of a kind type range for the “short fielder” position. Going to set the record for unassisted DPs!
TRS86
9/20/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Also a good point. Not only is a Tejada, Murphy duo not going to get it done, it’s most likely not going to put us any closer for 2012.
GravediggerHebner
9/20/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
I think this post is an excellent example of the “you could make a case” concept.
As others have noted above I think trading Reyes this off season would be selling low and I hope the team won’t trade him unless blown away by a favorably one-sided offer but who knows. The only things predictable about this team under Omar are they usually make 1 annual high dollar FA acquisition and they usually do not make any significant mid-season trades. Beyond that I consider anything possible so I won’t be shocked if the Mets do sell low on Reyes this offseason.
TRS86
9/20/2010-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Although I also can’t think of any recent history in which the Mets traded a player like Reyes, mostly because they have not had a player like Reyes? Perhaps Dykstra?
GravediggerHebner
9/20/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
Dykstra seems a good example but I was trying to think about it confining it to the Omar regime and I can’t think of anyone at all during that without really stretching the truth beyond recognition like for Heath Bell or Jason Vargas. I can’t recall anyone remotely like Reyes in terms of MLB service/success/age.
TRS86
9/20/2010-1:13pm at 1:13 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah and Bell nor Vargas work as neither were really successful at any point for the Mets.
Wagner? Even though his contract was officially dead and that was during season.