I recently came across an article from way back in January of 2005 that discussed the dawn of these “New Mets”. Here is a snippet from the article.
“There is a buzz surrounding the Mets these days, and it’s not just among fans. Players across the league and in the amateur ranks now see that the team is serious about building toward a championship, and are eager to be a part of the process.”
Interesting right? Where players in the Pros and in the Amateurs see a team serious in building a championship and are eager to be a part of it. Seems like lately you can make an argument that now it’s quite the opposite. You have rumors this past off season of players that just didn’t want to play in NY and lately you are hearing rumblings that even executives don’t find working for the Mets attractive. True or not the point is if said enough times the perception can sometimes become stronger than the reality but I am not writing this to discuss how the media can twist perception into a virtual reality.
I want to discuss what happened with that original idea “Where players in the Pros and in the Amateurs see a team serious in building a championship and are eager to be a part of it.” As the Mets come closer to the end of the season the rumors of the Mets seeking change and Omar Minaya’s job as GM being top of the list of this change. I want to try and take a look back and try to see where did it all go wrong.
By the way that snippet from the article I told you about are Omar Minaya’s own words from an article he did for the New York Times back on 1/30/2005.
In the article Minaya says, “The plan is to build a championship team based on pitching and defense, with youth, speed and athleticism, while re-emphasizing our scouting and player-development efforts. As for timing, we have a dual focus: on an immediate impact in 2005, but also on a sustained period of success. The plan involves not only changes on the field but also a change in the organization’s overall mind-set and culture. ” It goes on to say “Our solid core of young players – Beltran (27 years old), José Reyes (21), David Wright (22) and Kazuo Matsui (29), among others – provides a base for long-term success. These players embody the elements of our strategy for success. Within the next five to six years, we plan to add similar impact players from our minor league system, while our core players are still within their prime years. ”
OK so let’s try and trim this down. A team based on pitching and defense, with youth, speed and athleticism while instilling a change in the organization’s overall mind-set and culture. With the plan to add in the next five to six years players similar to there core players from the minor league system, while the core players are still within their prime years. Now let’s see how the plan was implemented as the years went by.
| Year 1 of plan | ||
| Free Agent signings made before and during the 2005 season | ||
| Date | Player | Amount |
| Nov 30, 2004 | Kris Benson | 3 year/$22.5M |
| Dec 15, 2004 | Ramon Castro | 1 year/$0.5M |
| Dec 17, 2004 | Pedro Martinez | 4 year/$53M |
| Dec 23, 2004 | Scott Strickland | 1 year/$0.65M |
| Jan 7, 2005 | Marlon Anderson | 1 year/min/lg/deal |
| Jan 10, 2005 | Miguel Cairo | 1 year/$0.9M |
| Jan 10, 2005 | Gerald Williams | |
| Jan 13, 2005 | Carlos Beltran | 7 year/$119M |
| Jan 17, 2005 | Roberto Hernandez | 1 year/$0.65M |
| Jun 8, 2005 | Jose Offerman | |
| Trades made before and during the 2005 season | ||
| Date | Player sent away | Player received |
| Jan 27, 2005 | Traded Ian Bladergroen (minors) to the Boston Red Sox | Received Doug Mientkiewicz and cash |
| Total Mets Payroll in 2005 | $ 101,305,821/1st in NL | |
| Final Record in 2005 | 83/W – 79/L 3rd Place | |
| Amateur Players Drafted /Signed before and during the 2005 season | ||
| Player | Round | |
| Michael A Pelfrey | 1st | |
| Jonathon J Niese | 7th | |
| Robert A Parnell | 9th | |
| Joshua Thole | 13th | |
| Fernando Martinez | amateur free agent | |
* * * * *
| Year 2 of plan | ||
| Free Agent signings made before and during the 2006 season | ||
| Date | Player | Amount |
| Nov 29, 2005 | Billy Wagner | 4 year/$43M |
| Dec 12, 2005 | Julio Franco | 2 year/$2.2M |
| Dec 12, 2005 | Jose Valentin | 1 year/$0.912M |
| Dec 22, 2005 | Endy Chavez | 1 year/$0.5M |
| Dec 27, 2005 | Chad Bradford | 1 year/$1.4M |
| Jan 19, 2006 | Darren Oliver | 1 year/$0.6M |
| Feb 28, 2006 | Pedro Feliciano | |
| Trades made before and during the 2006 season | ||
| Date | Player sent away | Player received |
| Nov 18, 2005 | Traded Mike Cameron to the San Diego Padres | Received Xavier Nady |
| Nov 24, 2005 | Traded Grant Psomas (minors), Mike Jacobs and Yusmeiro Petit to the Florida Marlins | Received Carlos Delgado and cash. |
| Dec 5, 2005 | Traded Dante Brinkley (minors) and Gaby Hernandez (minors) to the Florida Marlins | Received Paul Lo Duca |
| Jan 4, 2006 | Traded Tim Hamulack and Jae Weong Seo to the Los Angeles Dodgers. | Received Duaner Sanchez and Steve Schmoll |
| Jan 22, 2006 | Traded Kris Benson to the Baltimore Orioles. | Received Jorge Julio and John Maine. |
| May 24, 2006 | Traded Jorge Julio to the Arizona Diamondbacks | Received Orlando Hernandez |
| Jul 31, 2006 | Traded Xavier Nady to the Pittsburgh Pirates. | Received Roberto Hernandez and Oliver Perez |
| Total Mets Payroll in 2006 | $101,084,963/1st in NL | |
| Final Record in 2006 | 97/W – 65/L 1st Place Lost NLCS (4-3) | |
| Amateur Players Drafted /Signed before and during the 2006 season | ||
| Player | Round | |
| Joseph M Smith | 3rd | |
| Daniel T Murphy | 13th | |
| Ruben Tejada | amateur free agent | |
* * * * *
| Year 3 of plan | ||
| Free Agent signings made before and during the 2007 season | ||
| Date | Player | Amount |
| Nov 14, 2006 | Orlando Hernandez | 2 year/$12M |
| Nov 16, 2006 | Damion Easley | 1 year/$0.85M |
| Nov 21, 2006 | Moises Alou | 1 year/$7.5M/w-option |
| Dec 1, 2006 | Tom Glavine | 1 year/$7.5M |
| Jan 16, 2007 | Jorge Sosa | 1 year/$1.25M |
| Jan 25, 2007 | Scott Schoeneweis | 3 year/$10.8M |
| Mar 1, 2007 | Aaron Sele | 1 year/$1M |
| Trades made before and during the 2007 season | ||
| Date | Player sent away | Player received |
| Nov 15, 2006 | Traded Heath Bell and Royce Ring to the San Diego Padres. | Received Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson. |
| Dec 6, 2006 | Traded Brian Bannister to the Kansas City Royals. | Received Ambiorix Burgos |
| Jul 30, 2007 | Traded Dustin Martin (minors) and Drew Butera to the Minnesota Twins. | Received Luis Castillo. |
| Aug 20, 2007 | Traded Jose Castro (minors) and Sean Henry (minors) to the Cincinnati Reds. | Received Jeff Conine. |
| Total Mets Payroll in 2007 | $115,231,663/1st in NL | |
| Final Record in 2007 | 88/W – 74/L 2nd Place | |
| Amateur Players Drafted /Signed before and during the 2007 season | ||
| Player | Round | |
| Lucas C Duda | 7th | |
| Dillon Gee | 21st | |
* * * * *
| Year 4 of plan | ||
| Free Agent signings made before and during the 2008 season | ||
| Date | Player | Amount |
| Oct 31, 2007 | Damion Easley | 1 year/$0.95M |
| Nov 6, 2007 | Marlon Anderson | 2 years/$2.2M |
| Nov 16, 2007 | Ramon Castro | 2 years/$4.6M |
| Nov 19, 2007 | Luis Castillo | 4 years/$25M |
| Nov 30, 2007 | Argenis Reyes | |
| Mar 13, 2008 | Fernando Tatis | 1 year/$0.56M |
| Trades made before and during the 2008 season | ||
| Date | Player sent away | Player received |
| Nov 30, 2007 | Traded Lastings Milledge to the Washington Nationals. | Received Ryan Church and Brian Schneider. |
| Jan 5, 2008 | Traded Corey Coles (minors) and Ryan Meyers (minors) to the Chicago Cubs. | Received Angel Pagan. |
| Feb 2, 2008 | Traded Deolis Guerra (minors), Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey to the Minnesota Twins. | Received Johan Santana. |
| Total Mets Payroll in 2008 | $137,793,376/1st in NL | |
| Final Record in 2008 | 89/W – 73/L 2nd Place | |
| Amateur Players Drafted /Signed before and during the 2008 season | ||
| Player | Round | |
| Isaac B Davis | 1st | |
| Kirk R Nieuwenhuis | 3rd | |
| Mark E Cohoon | 12th | |
* * * * *
| Year 5 of plan | ||
| Free Agent signings made before and during the 2009 season | ||
| Date | Player | Amount |
| Dec 9, 2008 | Francisco Rodriguez | 3 years/$37M |
| Dec 23, 2008 | Omir Santos | |
| Jan 12, 2009 | Tim Redding | 1 year/$2.25M |
| Jan 13, 2009 | Alex Cora | 1 year/$2M |
| Jan 20, 2009 | Cory Sullivan | 1 year/$0.6M |
| Feb 2, 2009 | Oliver Perez | 3 years/$36M |
| Feb 14, 2009 | Livan Hernandez | |
| Apr 5, 2009 | Gary Sheffield | |
| Trades made before and during the 2009 season | ||
| Date | Player sent away | Player received |
| Dec 11, 2008 | traded Ezequiel Carrera (minors), Maikel Cleto (minors), Mike Carp, Endy Chavez, Aaron Heilman and Jason Vargas to the Seattle Mariners and Joe Smith to the Cleveland Indians. | Received Sean Green, J.J. Putz and Jeremy Reed from the Seattle Mariners |
| Dec 12, 2008 | Traded Scott Schoeneweis to the Arizona Diamondbacks. | Received Connor Robertson. |
| May 30, 2009 | Traded Ramon Castro and cash to the Chicago White Sox. | Received Lance Broadway. |
| Jul 10, 2009 | Traded Ryan Church to the Atlanta Braves. | Received Jeff Francoeur. |
| Aug 25, 2009 | Traded Billy Wagner to the Boston Red Sox. | The Boston Red Sox sent Chris Carter (October 7, 2009) and Eddie Lora (minors) (October 7, 2009) to the New York Mets to complete the trade. |
| Total Mets Payroll in 2009 | $149,373,987/1st in NL | |
| Final Record in 2009 | 70/W – 92/L 4th Place | |
| Amateur Players Drafted /Signed before and during the 2009 season | ||
| Player | Round | |
| Darrell Ceciliani | 4th | |
* * * * *
| Year 6 of plan | ||
| Free Agent signings made before and during the 2010 season | ||
| Date | Player | Amount |
| Nov 30, 2009 | Alex Cora | 1 year/$1.85M |
| Dec 4, 2009 | Henry Blanco | 1 year/$0.75M |
| Dec 17, 2009 | Ryota Igarashi | 2 years/$3M |
| Dec 21, 2009 | R.A. Dickey | |
| Dec 29, 2009 | Jason Bay | 4 years/$66M |
| Jan 28, 2010 | Fernando Tatis | 1 year/$0.85M |
| Feb 11, 2010 | Hisanori Takahashi | 1 year/$1M |
| Feb 24, 2010 | Rod Barajas | 1 year/$0.5M |
| Trades made before and during the 2010 season | ||
| Date | Player sent away | Player received |
| Jan 22, 2010 | Traded Brian Stokes to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. | Received Gary Matthews and cash. |
| Jul 30, 2010 | Traded Mike Jacobs to the Toronto Blue Jays. | Received player to be named. |
| Total Mets Payroll in 2010 | $134,422,942/3rd in NL | |
| Record so far in 2010 | 74/W – 77/L 4th Place | |
| Amateur Players Drafted /Signed before and during the 2010 season | ||
| Player | Round | |
| Matthew Harvey | 1st | |
| Blake Forsythe | 3rd | |
| Cory Vaughn | 4th | |
When I look back I see he made his mark year 1 with big free agent splash by signing Carlos Beltran and Pedro Martinez and yes Kris Benson. Then you go into year 2 he signs Billy Wagner and trades for Carlos Delgado Paul LoDuca, Duaner Sanchez, John Maine and Orlando Hernandez. They go 97/W – 65/L 1st Place and lose NLCS (4-3).
Now year 3 knowing how close they got they don’t make a big move via free agency except to bring back and resign Orlando Hernandez and Tom Glavine. They make a late season trade for Luis Castillo but in the end they didnt have enough suffering the biggest choke in MLB History.
Meanwhile Minaya building his 5 to 6 yr plan of having prospects ready to become part of the core has drafted or signed amatuer free agents Michael A Pelfrey, Jonathon J Niese, Robert A Parnell, Joshua Thole, Fernando Martinez, Daniel T Murphy, Ruben Tejada, Lucas C Duda and Dillon Gee.
Year 4 Here is where I think things turned for the worst. Minaya now owner of historic collapse remembering how poorly Glavine performed on the final day and with Pedr Martinez to hurt to be an ace he makes a huge trade to get Johan Santana giving the Mets a legit Ace as they seek to squash any memories of 2007. The problem was that he didn’t do much after that. And the Mets who spent most of July in a battle for 1st back n forth The hope that Minaya could add some reenforcements at the trade deadline was for not and the Mets once again failed.losing on the last day of the season as the closed Shea Stadium.
After that you have year 5 the 2009 season where the Mets set a record for having players on the dl. Followed by year 6 which is where we are now and well the hope of some of those injured players rebounding was not meant to be.
Yet Minaya’s talk of having players ready by year 5 or 6 looks to be on schedule. with Michael A Pelfrey, Jonathon J Niese, Robert A Parnell, Joshua Thole, Fernando Martinez, Daniel T Murphy, Ruben Tejada, Lucas C Duda and Dillon Gee already seeing considerable time for some and add Ike Davis with kids like Kirk R Nieuwenhuis and Jenrry Mejia on the horizon Minaya’s replacement may enjoy the fruit of Minaya’s labor.
When I look back I see he made his mark year 1 with big free agent splash by signing Carlos Beltran and Pedro Martinez and yes Kris Benson. Then you go into year 2 he signs Billy Wagner and trades for Carlos Delgado Paul LoDuca, Duaner Sanchez, John Maine and Orlando Hernandez. They go 97/W – 65/L 1st Place and lose NLCS (4-3).
Now year 3 knowing how close they got they don’t make a big move via free agency except to bring back and resign Orlando Hernandez and Tom Glavine. They make a late season trade for Luis Castillo but in the end they didnt have enough suffering the biggest choke in MLB History.
Meanwhile Minaya building his 5 to 6 yr plan of having prospects ready to become part of the core has drafted or signed amatuer free agents Michael A Pelfrey, Jonathon J Niese, Robert A Parnell, Joshua Thole, Fernando Martinez, Daniel T Murphy, Ruben Tejada, Lucas C Duda and Dillon Gee.
Year 4 Here is where I think things turned for the worst. Minaya now owner of historic collapse remembering how poorly Glavine performed on the final day and with Pedr Martinez to hurt to be an ace he makes a huge trade to get Johan Santana giving the Mets a legit Ace as they seek to squash any memories of 2007. The problem was that he didn’t do much after that. And the Mets who spent most of July in a battle for 1st back n forth The hope that Minaya could add some reenforcements at the trade deadline was for not and the Mets once again failed.losing on the last day of the season as the closed Shea Stadium.
After that you have year 5 the 2009 season where the Mets set a record for having players on the dl. Followed by year 6 which is where we are now and well the hope of some of those injured players rebounding was not meant to be.
Yet Minaya’s talk of having players ready by year 5 or 6 looks to be on schedule. with Michael A Pelfrey, Jonathon J Niese, Robert A Parnell, Joshua Thole, Fernando Martinez, Daniel T Murphy, Ruben Tejada, Lucas C Duda and Dillon Gee already seeing considerable time for some and add Ike Davis with kids like Kirk R Nieuwenhuis and Jenrry Mejia on the horizon Minaya’s replacement may enjoy the fruit of Minaya’s labor.
All the information was obtained using the following sources.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/
http://www.baseball-reference.com/
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=nym&year=2005
146 comments
rustyjr
9/23/2010-8:25am at 8:25 am (UTC -4)
Very good read nj – yes
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. Great work there, Holmes.
rustyjr
9/23/2010-8:28am at 8:28 am (UTC -4)
Omar and ownerships achillies heel has been the failure to adapt and make nesasary moves mid season and in turn the team collapses
TRS86
9/23/2010-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
Nice job NJ. I think there is more to the effects of the collapse and the bad constant negative attention outside the clubhouse than we will ever know.
saltygary
9/23/2010-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
Thanks for this.
And wow what a ’05 draft. Probably one of the best in team history. He really did a lot that year. He essentially had to throw every single dollar to Beltran and Pedro to demonstrate that players wanted to come to the team (sounds like history is starting to repeat itself again), and was able to put together great surrounding pieces through 2007. All for 100m.
I think your right North, the strategy changed after the first collapse. People panicked, salary increased. The other dynamic is the players were never the same and the weight was to heavy to bare. Now the team is in a situation where the backend of Beltran contract is causing issues (a risk most folks knew and willing to take) and Santana’a, Ollies, and Castillos contracts have now bound the entire organization and is forcing them into a transition year.
As much as us fans want our voices heard, I think rule number one is “stop reacting to the fanbase and hold the line”.
TRS86
9/23/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think that Castillo’s and Perez’s contracts bind them that much. They come off the books this year AND the Mets know they have tons of room in 2012. They COULD have the foresight to go out and get a FA they want this year, if there is one, and bit the bullet financially for one year. Not saying they will do this but right now all the ones saying we will not compete next year to me are reacting too quickly. I am not saying we will either, I am in wait and see mode. I do think that there is enough talent that with some shrewd moves we can contend. Now will those moves happen? I have no idea.
fongy2
9/23/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
They’re not gonna spend the money.
That should be clear to you by now.
TRS86
9/23/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
The only thing that is clear to me is that changes need to be made and some changes will be made. What they do after those changes is all assuming right now. I will choose not to assume. If you would like to assume that they will reduce payroll more than the 4-6M they reduced it last year that’s your prerogative. But lets not go around saying that things are cut and dry when really none of us have a clue what will happen. At this point I have never seen the Mets be any more unstable than they are right now so predicting what will happen this off-season and next year? That to me is impossible.
fongy2
9/23/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
O.K.
kingman 26
9/23/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
The team has spent next to nothing in the calendar year of 2010.
The team did zero during the season, when we were very much alive in June and July.
Payroll went down, significantly, for the first time in a while.
Attendance is way down.
Sorry, but all signs most clearly point to the same thing happening this offseason, but without a signing like Bay.
It’s the kids in 2011.
TRS86
9/23/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Payroll went down 4-6M dollars. Regardless of what sign is pointing what direction, have you ever seen a time in your Mets history that things were more up in the air than they are right now?
New GM, manager, coaches, scouting, core members on the trading block, I can go on and on. I can’t be certain what path they will follow this off-season. Especially, as NJ likes to point out, when we don’t even have a certain GM yet.
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
All true! Yeah…Well…A sure sign Omar has left things
in great shape for the next guy!………..Sad indeed!
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
Part of that is on the owners however by not making the move last off-season when all the doubt started to creep in. However now they are paying for that decision by having an incredible amount of instability now.
Seriously the Omar watch has been going on since the Tony B episode and the Jerry watch has been going on since last year. That creates this situation. Either fire them or come out and say they are here long-term.
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Well I got my wish that fans wouldn’t show up to Citifield
in September…Hoping this would seal Omar’s fate……
BUT it is sad!….My Bro-in-law took my Nephew to
the final Met-Buc gm for his B-day…..Despite them both
being Yankee fans…..AND….Not only was he allowed
to move waaayyyy down to field level Box per Stadium announcements BUT was told to keep their stubs and
they could walk up at the Stadium before any of games
coming up against The Brewers and get FREE TIX….
stickguy
9/23/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
to be fair, that was the tornado game, right? The city was practically shut down, especailly Queens and LI. Roads closed, power outages, etc.
I am surprised they were able to start that game only 12 minutes late, and anyone actually got there!
fongy2
9/23/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
Bottom line three quarters of a Billion dollars spent in player salary,
no “Superstars” developed after more than half a decade of scouting
and Drafting, a .500 rebuilding season, An All-time heartbreaking
loss in The NLCS when we were clearly the best team in the game,
TWO All-time collapses AND now TWO 4th place Finishes……..
WHILE when he does walk out the door, the team is stuck with
tens of millions of dollars of contracts for guys who are either injured,
past their prime or worse just not that good……….
Public fiascos involving Assistants, players, relationships with the media
etc,. Not much help on the way from down below…………
This while teams in BOTH leagues have re-tooled, re-loaded OR re-built…….Most all of them spending far less money.
To Me….This sounds alot more like failure than success!!!
kingman 26
9/23/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Well, it certainly is hard to argue with one word of this very accurate summary of the last five years!
I agree, it is very clear there will be no major new contracts this offseason, and 2011 will be a year to wait and see which of our non-blue-chip prospects MAY develop into decent major leaguers.
Then, with that knowledge combined with the final ending of the trio of financial albatrosses which are Beltran/Ollie/Slappy, the team will spend some dough to fill in holes for a hopeful run at decency in 2012.
And how bout them Dolphins Fong??
Must beat the Jets Sunday.
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
How ’bout dem Stillers!…Should beat Tampa Sunday and go 3-0
w/o Big Ben (as the ladies like to call him) and the D looking
like true Iron City Defense!
Your Dolf’s have a tough 5or6 weeks after their Bye. I had them
as tough 8/9win team just out of the playoffs but hey what do I
know?…I’ll tell ya I never had a problem with The Gints or Jets
being a Steeler fan all my life BUT….THIS Jet team is easy to
root against!…Good luck Sunday….BUT get ready for a beat-down on October 24th!
Oh…hey …..b/t/w, Why did Miami cut Pat White???
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Fong, I’m a Steelers fan myself (since 81) and chatting with other Steeler fans we kept saying, if they can go 2-2 over the first 4, they have a shot. Things are looking good there. Troy’s hair in all it’s glory! Just keep Big Ben away from the cheerleaders and the beer bongs!
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Indeed!….I’ve been a part of Steeler nation since ’72
AND an a Member of The official Steeler Fan Club since ’89
back in the “everything by snail mail” Days!
I too was hoping for 2-2…Thinking we lose to Ten&Balt
b/f Big Ben returns. Things look pretty good BUT I’m
VER VERY concerned about our O-Line Tackles…..
BUT it was good to see Tomlin let Tony Brown return
kicks instead of “Fair catch” Randle-El….Love him BUT
he’s close to done at this point.
Lastly, on Troy…..Simply the most important and valuable
Defensive player in the game……
kingman 26
9/23/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
The Fish have a very favorable second half schedule, and if they can go 1-1 in the next two against the Jets and the Pats, we will be in excellent shape.
I think they cut White because they just like Pennington and Thigpen as backups.
Prismo
9/23/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
How are there so many Mets fans who aren’t even fans of NY football teams?
There are 3 teams to choose from and you guys go for teams from Florida and western PA? Very very odd.
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Because when we were kids in the 70s the Jints and Jets stunk
on ice!
Prismo
9/23/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Well the Jets won in ’69…same year as the Mets. So maybe you shouldn’t have been Mets fans either. :p
But seriously, sounds like frontrunner talk to me! IMO, you pick teams based on either where you grew up, or who your parents root for. I’ve actually had lengthy discussions/arguments are my former workplace about this issue, and they never got anywhere, so I’ll drop it. But just sayin’.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Pops rooted for the Mets, Devils and Steelers. I had no choice. At least 2 or the 3 are respectable. OOOHHHHhhhh……
Prismo
9/23/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Your excuse has been noted. You are now officially allowed to root for the Steelers.
kingman 26
9/23/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
I was a Met fan from birth in 1966, but my Dad–now a Jet fan–was not a big fan of either team in the early 70s. We lived in Charlotte, NC from 73-75 when football first came on my radar screen, and the Dolphins were great and always on TV when I watched football. Then we moved back to NJ in 75 and he started taking me to Net games. Hence my strange Met/Dolphin/Net pedigree.
Loyal I am and a front-runner I am not.
fongy2
9/23/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Hey maybe I was a front runner with The Steelers in 1972 at the age of 7…..BUT in my own defense,
they had never won anything to that point….
AND since being hooked, I never jumped off.
Also, not so easy being an out of state football
fan back in the 80s and 90s w/o the internet, NFLNetwork, etc….
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
“The plan is to build a championship team based on pitching and defense, with youth, speed and athleticism, while re-emphasizing our scouting and player-development efforts.
OK… The player development has come along. Took a while, but these things do. As for the Pitching and Youth sections of this comment. It seems that they have completely forgotten the pitching part, as they rely on 4 starters and a mishmash for the the 5th spot consistently. And I did have to chuckle seeing the above statement and then seeing who he signed. Alou, Pedro, Glavine, Delgado, Lo Duca, etc. etc. While these players may have once been or were for a time with the Mets, it seems to be quite the divergence from the Youth/athleticism portion.
Prismo
9/23/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
It’s not out of the realm of possibilities that that truly was Omar’s plan. The Wilpons could have stepped in and said “Omar, we need to win *now*, no excuses” and Omar knew that he couldn’t “win now” while developing youth at the major league level, so he needed veteran ‘talent’ to potentially get the job done.
TRS86
9/23/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Damn, you beat me to it. Nice job Prismo.
Prismo
9/23/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Haha, I see we came up with the exact same idea 1 minute apart. Excellent.
I obviously want Omar to go, but again…it wouldn’t shock me if he was actually an above average GM who was backed into a corner and couldn’t get out.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
could be why most reports state that no one wants the Mets GM job. Tough to execute a vision when someone is trying to tell you have “their” vision, not yours.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
True and I don’t blame that just on the Wilpons either. I blame that on the market of NY. You don’t get that many chances to succeed so I can’t blame them for calling that audible after 2006 but now we are paying the consequences of it.
TRS86
9/23/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
True, I have always said that one of the major problems we had was that we got good too quickly. 2006 was never supposed to be the championship season. It was supposed to take time to build around the young nucleus. However, almost every offensive player had career years and we took off. Then 2 things happen, fans expected us to be just as good the next year AND Omar and the Mets had to respond to that by filling holes with overpriced veterans while waiting on their farm to rebuild. Thus you get 2007-2008. I still have no idea what 2009 would have brought if healthy.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
I guess. I always thought that Omar’s biggest fault was he caught lightning in a bottle on some of his moves. Once he caught said lightning, he was like “wow, that was cool! I bet I can catch many lightning bolts! I am the Lightning Catcher!!!!!!” and from there went on to catch about zero more bolts of lightning.
kingman 26
9/23/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
This is a very impressive piece of work Mr N.
Thank you for taking the time to create this excellent post.
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
There is not a doubt in my mind they were serious in 2005 about building a championship team. Fast forward to 2010 and the reality is what they wanted to do and what they actually did are two very different things.
All comes down to talent…from Jeff to Omar to the entire FO. Together, they appear to not have the smarts necessary to actually build a contender.
Here is hoping that regime has come to an end. What worries me is with the Wilpons at the helm, do we have any confidence the next regime coming in can do a better job?
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I compare it to coaching. If I took over a program that needed a lot of work but had some young kids that were very talented. My first year we are not expected to compete but then suddenly we do well with those players as freshmen. The expectations are still level but higher. We continue to work on those basic skills to prepare for their senior year. However, their sophomore year they really take off and have an unbelievable year. So that off season instead of continuing to make plans for their senior year and continue working on building the program I get greedy and try and win it all then by forgetting working on basic skills and focusing just on winning that year. What happens? Those players were not ready yet, we suffer for that year and never prepare them for what should have been a great final year.
So I say all that to say what I did before. We got good too quickly and called an audible.
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
Could very well be. And from Jerz’s excellent post and research, it appears to be that Omar has done a very good job with young signings and/or drafts. Where he failed was at the major league level with FA signings, or talent of those FA signings or lack thereof of enough supporting cast.
And some really, really bad luck with injuries.
That’s why I have no problem with Omar remaining with the organization – just not as GM. We need a fresh architect.
Prismo
9/23/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
I’m trying to come up with the ultimate youth roster for 2011. What do you think?
1B – Ike Davis
2B – Justin Turner/Reese Havens
SS – Jose Reyes
3B – David Wright
LF – Jason Bay
CF – Angel Pagan
RF – Fernando Martinez
C – Josh Thole
SP – Johan Santana
SP – Mike Pelfrey
SP – RA Dickey
SP – Jon Niese
SP – Dillon Gee
SP – Jenrry Mejia
CL – Bobby Parnell
(question marks: right field, SP – I figure Mejia can start after Johan inevitably needs surgery again, SP – Gee..not sure what to think about that situation, CL – should Bobby get a shot if KRod somehow doesn’t come back?, 2B – who would you like to see start?)
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
At this point, I’d prob put Duda in for the proverbial broken all the time Mart. And I’d like to see Turner get the start over Havens, which is frustrating as why didn’t Turner get a look this September? Mind Boggling.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
A lot of that is already a lock. I think Beltran at this point will be here and we will have to have an OF ready to go with them. I know some have mentioned Duda but I would prefer someone with 4th OF history that can play all 3 positions. A Pagan type, just needs to be able to bat RH.
2B I think while many have written off Murphy as a candidate it appears the Mets have not. Perhaps Tejada and Murphy can be the 2B tandem next season.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
As a card carrying, pin wearing member of the Free Daniel Murphy, Professional Hitter club, I am hoping he can learn and progress over the winter season and hit his way into the starting lineup while providing passable D.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
I hope we have a post up about this soon today.
I have to wonder if Murphy can play Uggla like defense (not this year Uggla but past Uggla) while continuing to perfect his craft? Can we handle a week 2B on defense with 3 decent to above average defenders surrounding him?
I think a defense of Davis, Reyes, Wright, Thole, Bay, Pagan, Beltran (in RF) is very strong. Throwing Murphy in at 2B might not be a death sentence. You could also have Tejada be the defensive replacement.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Was it Lennon or another writer that had a story about Murph yesterday? All reports stated he handled himself fine at 2B and was turning DPs very well. They inteveiwed Thole about it and he was pretty much thumbs up on Murph at 2B. I’d take Uggla Lite at his salary for sure. Any money flexibility they have should go to SP & BP, so finding an internal option at 2B that can hit, I’m all for it! Personally, Murph may have a few extra grains of grit in him more than the ultimate McGritty Hudson.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
I think IF we are saying that next year is a transition year (trying to compete but not selling the farm) then we have enough in house options to compete for 2B (I would still bring in a cheap vet). Murphy, Tejada, Turner, Havens (eventually), Valdespin…
It certainly would allow us to spend more on permanent needs instead of one year needs. I can’t see how someone from that group does not step up to league average production for 2012.
Prismo
9/23/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
I would prefer to start the youth, if it’s available (and with so many options, it should be). If we’re thinking 2012, I’d like to allow the youth to build some chemistry over the course of a season. I think it’s easier for a Justin Turner (for example) to build chemistry with Thole and Ike than for OHud (who might not even be back for ’12) to do so.
Also, as you say, it gives the youngin’ a year to adjust to the league and grow.
stickguy
9/23/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
glad to see you are on board with my “ST 2B derby” plan for next year.
And, it does not have to be 1 guy set in stone. Entirely opssible it is fluid during the year, depending on how guys are doing.
Or, a good option is a platoon of some sort. murphy/tejada, turner/someone, whatever makes sense.
have 2 guys that can serve as the starting 2B and also the MI BU, and hope that the next manager can actually maximize their talents (instead of getting the least out of the available talent, like Jerry does)
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I think to me Tejada can be very valuable in that role. Turner could be the guy as well but at least if it’s Murphy-Tejada you have a natural LH/RH platoon if needed.
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
How things may have been so different after the ’06 season if
Omar had made the right moves re-tooling The Bullpen………
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
So I’m guessing you were upset when mr. Bradford left?
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
The entire handling of the Pen….Re-signing Mota, 3 yr to Schoenweiss BUT NOT Bradford….Giving up on Bell for nothing
NOT re-signing Oliver….Even Moving Bannister for Burgos….
None of the moves worked out….
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
I think some of the moves were logical at the time but they backfired. I think that Omar misjudged the market for relievers. Bradford wanting that much money and years, Omar said no. What he did not see was the market for middle relievers was going to increase even more. Thus he got stuck with Show and 3 years.
Not re-signing Oliver would be the equivalent of us getting upset about the Mets not re-signing Dessens. After only one year of success should the Mets have offered multiple years to Oliver?
I still defend the Bannister for Burgos trade. Not sure Omar could know that the guy was going to turn out to be both and idiot and a criminal. The guy was a flame throwing young BP guy with closing experience.
But just like many moves since 2006, they all backfired.
fongy2
9/23/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
And THAT is the point!…In the end Omar misjudged or
was just plain wrong. I know you’re not one Heb BUT the
Omar defenders can’t have it both ways…1) Lets not
judge moves immediately, lets wait a couple, three years
to se how the trade(s), draft(s) work….And then 2) When
it doesn’t work out….Well then, it didn’t look so bad at the
time/ It made some sense at that time.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Was Lidstrom traded that offseason as well? I didn’t like seeing him go. You just don’t trade away 100MPH RPs. At least in my book. My book is more pamphlet-esque, but you get the point.
stickguy
9/23/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
He was out of options, and pretty much a hard but flat FB 1 trick pony.
and (not saying you are) people can’t have it both ways. You can’t complain about trading a young hard throwing RP for a SP, then turn around and complain about trading a soft tossing SP for a flame throwing young RP (Burgos).
and the bell/lindstrom deals were primarily made due to the Met players being out of options, so they converted them into younger SPs.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
The only reason I had a problem with the Burgois/Bannister deal was the premise you can turn a starter into a reliever, you can’t always do the opposite. Other than that, I did like the promise of Burgois stuff. It’s all hind sight as well. Burgos could have been amazing, Lidstrom could have turned out like Henry Owens. Bell could have sucked it up. Woulda/Coulda…
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Confused. What was the starter into a reliever, reliever into starter thing? Burgos was a reliever with closing experience.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Was just saying that the only issue I had with the Bannister / Burgos trade was I thought the Mets were thin at SP at the time, and they could always through Bannister to the BP if they didn’t need him to start. You couldn’t do the same with Burgois. But, I’ll admit that line of thinking is nit picky, cause Burgois was a fireballer and like you said had closer experience, so he did fit a need the Mets needed as well. I just value SP over RP exponentially more, I guess.
It’s tough to explain and I know I’m not portraiting it correctly.
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
I understand that SP should be more valued. However I disagree with how at THAT point we were thin in SP. At that point we were thin in the BP and were trading from a position of strength… #5 SP. They had just lost Bradford and Roberto Hernandez so Burgos filled a sure need.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
My thinking was just chuck Bannister in the BP. Then, if the need did arise, well what do you know? We have an extra SP hiding in the BP!
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Problem is that would not have solved the hole in the BP, just taken another spot. We did not need a long-man that pitched to contact and did not strike anyone out being in the BP.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Problem was there was no room for an older AA reliever on the MLB team and he was out of options. Thus it was either commit to keeping him on the MLB roster all year or trade him.
fongy2
9/23/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Yes he was…Basically Omar gave away the two hardest throwing RPers in the system(b/c HE didn’t draft them)
for really only Vargas, who he then also showed no patience with indeveloping. THIS is why I’ve defended holding onto
Parnell and lately Meijia….Live arms aren’t that easy to
find! you can teach a guy how to Pitch…Can’t teach him
to throw 100MPH.
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
So what should have Omar done with an older AA Matt Lindstrom who was out of options and would have had to have been carried all year on a team with WS ambitions?
fongy2
9/23/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Well in the end he made The Marlins team and turned into a pretty good 8th inning guy for a couple yrs.
Not sayin’ HE shouldn’t have been moved BUT for a
team which was facing the free agency of Bradford,
Mota,Hernandez&Oliver to simply compound the
potential problem by giving up on two 100mph throwers
like Lindstrom and Bell was unwise.
I said it at the time AMD in the end was right….
While…Omar for all the millions he was paid AND all the power he had by naming his own staff, scouts etc…
was wrong with almost all his BP moves since building
the 2006 Pen.
TRS86
9/23/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t deny it being the wrong move ultimately but I can’t think that losing someone on the MLB roster to protect an older AA guy during a season in which you were supposed to compete for a WS as a good move.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Umm..he did. But they all failed.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
If they failed, could they have been the RIGHT moves?
Ceetar
9/23/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Well true, but it’s not like he sat back and twiddled his thumbs. ( he waited for September to do that, when he should’ve promoted successful AAA relievers)
Sometimes moves don’t work. Maybe Omar overrates relievers in general? Actually, that does seem consistant with a lot.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
Sometimes the media ‘theme’ of the day gets in the way of truth. the Theme of that offseason was ‘rebirth’ and excitment and what not.
now it’s one of disfunction and a mess. Most media guys aren’t looking to write stories right now that say “It’s still New York and players like to come here and succeed on this stage. The Mets do pay well and money talks.”
Were certainly a lot of (bad) players that suggested they’d like to play here last year.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Yeah there were stories of Pineiro and Molina both being caught off guard by the Mets basically NOT overpaying them.
stickguy
9/23/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
good piece. interesting to see the facts laid out like this.
And a GM is somewhat like the president (and no, I am not going political!). What they can really influence (programs, policies for the pres, drafts, development, vision for a GM) take time to actually show up in the box score (or economy).
SO, the “next” guy usually gets the blame or credit for that the “previous” guy put in place.
and rebuilding a farm system and young core will take time. But, I think it is 100% the right thing to fill in gaps with veterans when you have a chance to win (like 2006, even 2007/2008). Key is, keep them short term, and not count on them to be main cogs.
Getting Slappy was a reasonable (although in retrospect bad) move. But resigning him was where the plan/vision broke down. Even Alou, OK for 1 year shot, assinine to resign.
TRS86
9/23/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
Great example, Wayne K and the Reds.
Alou was an option year. The contract was good, picking up the option bad. Signing Castillo for multiple years? OK, 4 years? Bad.
stickguy
9/23/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
random thoughts on this:
1) Omar gets more blame (and more jsutified for firing) due to the relative mess the organization is. Only part of the GM job is roster moves, at which (as this peice shows) he has been average to slightly above for the most part.
2) 2007 was a collapse. 2008 was not. It was a tight back and forth race, and they did not have the horses to finish.
3) I know that NYers find this hard to believe, but for many people (players), NY is not a desirable destination (even when the teams are good). And the NY teams always have to overpay, since the taxes are ridiculous. And with the sheer volume of media, likely not as much fun, especially for many of the “country bumpkin” types. And not every player is looking for media outlets and attention for themselves, or their wives!
The Yankees have (recently) had the “get your ring on someone elses back” allure, and the tradition, but they still have to pay top dollar. As the Mets will continue to have to do, even if a new FA comes in, all full of puppies and daisys.
4) perceptions can change quickly. 5 years ago, the Mets were hot, and no player worth anything anted to play in Philly. It was a total non-destination for FAs. Not, it is the hot spot. A few years from now? Who knows. I can tell you from being down here, the fans have gotten a major case of Yankeefan entitlementitis, and if the team hits the rocks (as old teams often do) at some point, they will be turning on them and fast!
kingman 26
9/23/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Number 3 is a great point.
I couldn’t read the whole comment though; far too long.
Prismo
9/23/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
Philly fans are notorious for flip-flopping/turning on their teams.
I have several Philly fan friends, and a number of them declared after the Phillies WS win that their favorite Philly team swapped from the Eagles to the Phillies.
When the Giants won the superbowl, I was pretty ecstatic…but I was still by far a great Mets fan than a Giants fan. Would trade 5 Giants superbowl wins for 1 Mets WS win.
Maybe it’s a bias, and this actually isn’t much different in any major sports city, but it’s what I think I’ve noticed…
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Philly fans were turning on THIS team earlier this year.
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Prior to 2007 a good chunk of Phillies fans wanted Charlie gone in the worst way. Amazing what winning can do for a perception, isn’t it?
Now….he’s a genius and highly praised.
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Or the fact that before Bobby V became the god of managing his career in Texas was under .500.
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
1 pennant in 15 years.
Prismo
9/23/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
His tenure in Japan counts in my mind as well.
TRS86
9/23/2010-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
how much do you count it? I would say no more than that of MLB AAA.
kingman 26
9/23/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
Valentine’s Japanese team was a perennial also-ran and he led them to a championship.
Valentine had the longest tenure and the most winning seasons of any manager in Ranger history.
The Rangers are in their 50th year of existence, and have won ONE PLAYOFF GAME. Not one series, ONE GAME.
Not fair to malign Valentine for being a barely-under .500 manager for one of the very worst franchises in the last 50 years of baseball.
But you are most definitely hopelessly biased against Valentine, that is for sure.
He won a pennant in NY, is the only manager to lead the Mets to 2 consecutive playoff appearances, led the perennially garbage Rangers to several winning seasons, and won a title in Japan.
A God, no? A very good manager with a lot of success and a clearly excellent knowledge of the game, and a proven record of maximizing the talent of a LOT of players. Without question to the objective.
stickguy
9/23/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
MF, Charlie was within days of getting fired in late August 2007. He was deep into Jerry land at that point. And if the mets hadn’t gagged up the division, I have no doubt he would have been canned anyway.
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
Ha! All it takes is winning.
Had we won the WS in 2006 and/or not collapsed in 2007, Willie would probably still be manager and Omar would probably be a very highly regarded GM.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-1:30pm at 1:30 pm (UTC -4)
had we not collapsed in’07 the Phillies would probably still be losing, C. Manuel would’ve lost his job, Wright would have an MVP, etc.
kingman 26
9/23/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stickguy
9/23/2010-3:05pm at 3:05 pm (UTC -4)
Kong, don’t laugh too hard. If the phils had won a few less games in ’07, and the Mets had just stumbled along at .500, the Phils miss the playoffs.
And I 100% guarantee you Chaleee was axed at the end of the yer.
And of course we have no idea how the rest of the dominos fell, but from reading the papers down here, likely their approach would have been different going forward from there.
kingman 26
9/23/2010-4:43pm at 4:43 pm (UTC -4)
Eh, maybe, maybe not.
If we beat them for the division in 2007 and they won a few less games, they would have won 85+ games, missed the WC by a little, and you are 100% sure Chalee would have been fired?
I totally disagree.
Ceetar’s idea that they “would still be losing” is a very funny joke. Not really though.
The Phils’ last losing season?
2002.
They’ve won at least 85 every year since then.
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Man, MBlog is in rare form today in the comment section. Poor stick, why do you do that to yourself?
stickguy
9/23/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
It’s fun to poke at the dopeasses over there. Some of them really annoy me.
I will have to go check to see what got them the most riled up, saying something nice about Murphy, or suggesting that K Rod might not be the anit-christ (or that his GF might be gold digging).
TRS86
9/23/2010-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Lots of hate over there lately for sure.
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
There’s one poster over there who really, really hates Murphy. All anyone has to do is post a ‘what if’ type of scenario about the kid and he’s all over them.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
sylow’s a moron.
stickguy
9/23/2010-3:00pm at 3:00 pm (UTC -4)
Compared to Sylow on Murphy, Kingman is president of the Carter fan club.
And I was just getting annoyed with the number of posters that “knew” murphy could not do X, Y or Z, or that he 100% was certain things.
and if you pointed out a different opinion (or even suggested just letting him audition in ST) it was like you kicked their wife and speft with their dog.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
Carter’s another guy I’m done with.
stickguy
9/23/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
the forgotten man.
I think the Mets are done with him too, and I doubt he is here nest year.
If nothing else, he has been Duda-ded
wannybackstra
9/23/2010-4:04pm at 4:04 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know that Duda will be a better hitter in the long run than Carter (or vice versa) but Duda appears to be much more serviceable in the outfield which gives him an edge over Carter if for some reason there’s a decision to be made in that regard.
I can’t imagine Duda spending next season on the bench, though, as opposed to playing regularly in AAA.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-4:22pm at 4:22 pm (UTC -4)
Nick Evans, however, could be a bench guy. I guess that’s a righty though, but if Murphy’s on this team as a utility type guy, he’d be a lefty bat off the bench and could play LF/RF. He had some issues out there, but not as bad as it’s made out to be and he has more range and a better arm from what I’ve seen than Carter.
Most of these decisions are beyond pointless to discuss. They’ll almost all be decided by the new manager in spring training.
GravediggerHebner
9/23/2010-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve been spefting with all their dogs and they can’t do a thing to stop me.
Ceetar
9/23/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
might be?
TRS86
9/23/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Castillo for Figgins? Would Seattle do it knowing that they overpaid Figgins and will not compete next year? Should the Mets even consider it? His contract is 3/26, subtracting Castillo’s 6 makes it 3/20…. I say pass.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Castill & Perez for Figgins?
stickguy
9/23/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
that makes it 3/8 for the mets. In that case, I (as the Mets) do it.
Not that I actually want figgens, or want to clog up 2B like that. But, at that price, he can serve as a stop gap 2B, and eventually a utility/jack of all trades guy.
Plus, cheap enough to move if needed.
I just don’t think the Mariners will be interested in Ollie enough to do it!
TRS86
9/23/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
M’s would not do that trade. Figgins is not garbage and they would not be saving enough.
stickguy
9/23/2010-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
well yeah, but this is a met blog, so we have to look at it from the Met’s prespective!
TRS86
9/23/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Uh…:
“I have no idea what the Mets are going to do for a closer next season, assuming Francisco Rodriguez is not pitching for them, which I think is a reasonable assumption, be it for legal or contractual reasons.”
I still don’t see it. I would put the chances of Krod being on the team next year at 75-80%.
saltygary
9/23/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Whatever money is spent it will probably not be on a closer. Closer by committee makes more sense. Besides KROD and Igrashi, no other relievers are signed.
TRS86
9/23/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Signed true, but I think some are virtual locks. I don’t see the Mets letting Feliciano walk. Parnell will be back unless traded.
So there’s 4 if Krod is healthy. That only leaves 3 more spots?
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
Feliciano is a type A, no? He’ll be offered arb, I would think he might just walk. could be a lot of new bodies in that pen.
wannybackstra
9/23/2010-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
I think he’s a B now, which doesn’t change my plan to let him go — I’ll take the supplemental pick.
Prismo
9/23/2010-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
I would offer him arb and let him walk. If the Mets are thinking long-term (specifically not 2011), Feliciano will be 35 y.o. for most of the 2012 season; quite possibly on the decline. I’d rather have 2 top draft picks…
I could see either way’s side of thinking though, it’s just the route I’d go.
saltygary
9/23/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
As much as I like Feliciano, the best move is offer ARB. He pretty much has pitched more innings than anyone. Add in age and he is becoming a risk.
wannybackstra
9/23/2010-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
This sounds like the kind of guy the Mets could use as GM:
Jon (Ithaca)
Keith, have you ever interacted with Jerry DiPoto and what do you think of him as a potential future GM either this year or down the road?
Klaw
(1:16 PM)
I’ve met Jerry and talked to him several times. I think he’d be an excellent choice for a team looking to rebuild its farm system through the draft, and I understand from his (former) colleagues in Arizona that he’s a very open-minded guy with a strong interest in using data to increase the effectiveness of his team’s scouting efforts. And he’s a good guy who people would want to work for.
stickguy
9/23/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
sounds good. But, given the apparent issues in the met FO, I would only want someone with his experience level as part of a 2-fer.
Get an Alderson type as the VP of BB ops (replacing Jeffy), to be the heavy hitter voice of authority. And the one to beat the owners back.
Dipoto would fill the role of doing the “grunt” work, and being the GM contact for trades, etc. and executing the plan for the farm, draft, etc.
GravediggerHebner
9/23/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
Mr. NJ this is a truly great read. Thank you for putting all of this together in one place it is very thorough and thus very illuminating.
I’m still trying to decide which I believe is the larger factor: either they quickly strayed from the plan or the did a really poor job of executing it.
Either way I find it laughable looking over this list of acquisitions to consider that “youth, athleticism, pitching, speed and defense” were strong considerations in the vast majority of them. Laughable.
wannybackstra
9/23/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
valentin, marlon anderson, alou, el duque, livan, miguel cairo and gerald williams didn’t seem young and athletic to you?
in retrospect, it appears to me that omar’s free agent signings have damaged the team more than his trades and i don’t think that’s the popular perception.
stickguy
9/23/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
Mr. NJs list certainly supports your conclusion.
It was the early trades (delgado, laduca) that put the mets into the NLCS pretty much.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
So would you consider Omar, “good for the short term, not so good for the long term”?
stickguy
9/23/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
I consider him just a GM, and like most GMs, if you give them more money to spend, they will likely screw up spending a lot of it.
njstuckintx
9/23/2010-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
+3.1428… (22/7)
GravediggerHebner
9/23/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
Not only those guys but even many of the amateur choices – It’s hard for me to consider many of them speedy, defensive & athletic.
I give props to Ike Davis for his defense and even Thole has been a revelation (to me anyway, I’ve been really impressed) but speedy or athletic these guys are not, nor are Lucas Duda or Daniel Murphy. Tejada is athletic but not speedy. FMart is injured so often I can’t recall if he was speedy or athletic.
To be fair I will say I believe that the amateur acquisitions have a higher percentage of speedy, defensive & athletic players than the trades & FA but even the amateur guys are not overwhelmingly or obviously chosen for these attributes.
wannybackstra
9/23/2010-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
Your points are accurate. But in some ways I’m thankful Omar hasn’t followed his plan to acquire “athletes” because I much prefer “baseball players.” I do think Thole, Davis, Tejada, Duda and Murphy have chances to prove they fall into the latter category. Of course, the biggest problem the Mets have had in the draft is identifying and selecting future stars.
stickguy
9/23/2010-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
Duda (including his time back to college) has actually, to me, shown that he is a baseball palyer. He just isn’t particularly fast or graceful (or, if he is fast, it is that deceptive “big huge guy” speed).
He has always shown plate discipline, a controlled swing, a good arm, and in general a good BB “mind” Heck, he even itched in HS (with a 90mph FB).
He just isn’t a big glove guy, but he does at least seem functional, and looks to be working hard to improve (and that was also the reports from the minors).
Now, is this worth more than a guy that looks like the athlete of the century, and runs really fast, but has no clue how to actually play baseball? Say, Francouer?
wannybackstra
9/23/2010-4:56pm at 4:56 pm (UTC -4)
Did he use some cream for that itch? Because an itch acquired in HS sounds like something that should be treated before spreading it to others…
GravediggerHebner
9/23/2010-4:52pm at 4:52 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. This is not scientific in any way but it seems to me that the bigger successes have been the guys who knew how to play the game before they came to the team as opposed to the tools guys that the organization was going to teach how to play the game.
Mr North Jersey
2/8/2012-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
GraveDiggerHebner, are you out there? Have you decided yet?
“I’m still trying to decide which I believe is the larger factor: either they quickly strayed from the plan or the did a really poor job of executing it.”
Mr North Jersey
9/23/2010-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
OK so 1st let me say Thanks to everyone for the kind words on the post.
Last night suffering a bout of insomnia I decided to finally start writing this post and gathering all the info which if not for the insomnia I don’t know how I would of ever got it done.
I wanted to tackle a part of the article where it says,
“In any player negotiations, two major factors come into play – finances and trust. Our strategy this winter has been to pursue some of baseball’s biggest names, traveling to their homelands to show them just how serious we are. Upon earning that trust – only when the player and the organization feel that a partnership would be a good one – we are then able to discuss finances more comfortably.”
but it was so long already that I just decided against it.
When I read where he said “finances and trust” as 2 major factors in player negotiations. I could not help to wonder what Beltran may have to say about trust or some of the rumored reports of players saying Minaya just never got back to them and wondered if there was any truth to said reports.
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-5:39pm at 5:39 pm (UTC -4)
There’s so much that went on that we’re never going to be privy to that it’s hard to say with certainty one way or the other just exactly what went wrong.
But facts are facts and it’s obvious to me after reading the post Jerz’s insomnia brought us that the ‘vision’ and the ‘execution’ were two different things when all was said and done.
Read all the comments here and a poster or two speculated about changing gears mid stream and even panic moves look obvious. Yet another reason I still believe a new architect is needed at the helm. I’m just afraid if Omar stays he will again switch gears trying get a new path that might lead to success – and the new path might be more in line with trying to keep his job with some instant fixes than then sticking to a script that will hopefully bring long term success back to this franchise.
stickguy
9/23/2010-7:26pm at 7:26 pm (UTC -4)
quite simply really what went wrong.
They did not win enough games and make the playoffs enough.
rustyjr
9/23/2010-6:19pm at 6:19 pm (UTC -4)
Kong – ever hear of Rick Orlando ?
oleosmirf
9/23/2010-6:32pm at 6:32 pm (UTC -4)
where did Omar go wrong you ask?
operation hope and pray
Mr North Jersey
9/23/2010-6:56pm at 6:56 pm (UTC -4)
Oh I hope and pray that I could but today I am still just a….
Mr North Jersey
9/23/2010-6:33pm at 6:33 pm (UTC -4)
OK so talkin with Grave I been lookin at Hunsicker as candidate for GM job and here is some to the items that stand out to me about him.
His 7 years with the Mets from 1989-1995 where he was a farm director and helped oversee the scouting while also helping with the major league operation. Gives him an understanding of what NY is like and more importantly ownership.
As GM of the Astros from 1996 to 2004 he has the Astros win the division 5 of the 9 years. Winning the Wild Card his last year as GM in 2004 and never finishing worse than 2nd except for once in 2000 and never finishing below 500 except for 2000.
In 2005 he stayed on as special adviser to the Astros where he saw the team he helped build go to the W.S. for the 1st time in franchise history.
in the fall of 2005 the Rays hired Hunsicker to be their senior vice president of baseball operations. He is credited for being instrumental in helping to establish the Rays international program.
I believe Hunsicker is now 60 and I wonder if he would consider leaving Tampa to come to NY?
.
stickguy
9/23/2010-7:00pm at 7:00 pm (UTC -4)
a fine idea as the VP/overlord (grooming the young buck GM), but the various reports I have seen (probably all 3rd hand, but the best I got!) all seem to indicate he is very happy down in Fla, and would like to stay there.
Of course, if the Mets double his salary and let him work based out of Fla, then it is a much different decision. COme up to NY for a week each month, and go from there!
with modern technology, it really doesn’t matter where you are based.
Mr North Jersey
9/23/2010-7:02pm at 7:02 pm (UTC -4)
The other thing is I think Hunsicker and Minaya could work well together if the Mets decided to not simply release Minaya.
stickguy
9/23/2010-7:24pm at 7:24 pm (UTC -4)
I still don’t like the keep omar idea. But, it does bring up an interesting dynamic.
Basically what it does is say Omar was not the problem, jeffy was, since Hunsicker would be replacing Jeffy’s effective role.
better just replace them both to be safe!
Mr North Jersey
9/23/2010-7:14pm at 7:14 pm (UTC -4)
BTW in case anyone is wondering where I am getting the info regarding Hunsicker. Here are the sites.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=franchise&fid=nym
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=franchise&fid=hou
http://www.baseball-reference.com/player_search.cgi?search=astros&sourceid=Mozilla-search
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E5D9173EF937A35752C1A9639C8B63
http://mlb.mlb.com/tb/team/exe_bios/hunsicker_gerry.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/18/sports/la-sp-0919-baxter-20100919
stickguy
9/23/2010-11:00pm at 11:00 pm (UTC -4)
saw this little tidbit on 7train. Starting to like Dipoto. Especially if they bring in the big name sr. guy to bump Paris up to a figurehead role.
Then, clear out the other assorted riff raff clogging up the FO, like wayne K and whatever other advisors are hanging around, yapping in omar or Jeffys ear.
Streamline the damned organization, minimize Jeffys meddling input, and a young GM/old Guru tandem has great potential to get good things done.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dipoto quoted by Thomas Harding of MLB.com back on January 14, 2005, while with the Rockies:
“I’ve followed the game passionately since I was a kid. One of the things I did was watch trends. What makes a team great? What creates long-term success? The Twins in the early ’90s. The Braves in the late ’80s and early ’90s. The Mets of the mid-to-late ’90s. What they had in common was a very high-level minor league system and a sound process, a right way to do things.”
metsfan4decades
9/23/2010-11:25pm at 11:25 pm (UTC -4)
Working late tonight. Needed some background noise so I slipped in my Game 6 DVD.
‘A little roller up along first…..
Behind the bag! It gets through Buckner. Here comes Knight and the Mets win it!’
All I have to say is:
It’s. Been. Too. Long.
(Are you listening Jeff?)
stickguy
9/23/2010-11:27pm at 11:27 pm (UTC -4)
I always felt bad for Buckner. He gets way too much grief. That game was as good as lost once the mets tied it up.
The BP and manager though (that really blew the series) must have loved him for taking all the heat!
metsfan4decades
9/24/2010-12:55am at 12:55 am (UTC -4)
i often wondered why Calvin Sheraldi didn’t get more flack than he did.
oleosmirf
9/24/2010-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
I still believe Minaya should stay on as “Director of International Signings” b/c he is very strong in that area.
unfortunately for Omar, all those 16 year old latin kids he signed won’t really pay dividends during his time here. That to me was his biggest mistake as they take 2-3 times longer to develop than a college player.
njstuckintx
9/24/2010-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
Is there a list of all the international signings he’s done? I know they list Fmart and Tejada above. I guess Takahashi and Igarashi would fit the bill too. I’d just like to see some tangible evidence that he is strong in that area.
Not being a player for Chapman still rubs me the wrong way, so saying he is good at international signings doesn’t quite hit the bulls eye for me.